asked the Minister for Local Government the basis on which it has been calculated that the rates paid by householders account for over 50 per cent of the total amount of rates paid.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Householders' Rates.
17.
The estimate is based on a sample survey and includes an element in respect of the residential portion of mixed hereditaments.
When was this sample survey carried out?
I cannot give the Deputy that information but I can give him the exact figures, if they are of interest to him. They are calculated on the basis that 49.56 per cent of the total rates is paid in respect of domestic hereditaments and approximately 4 per cent relates to the domestic element in mixed hereditaments.
In view of that information, would the Minister explain the discrepancy between that reply and the reply which he gave here on 3rd of this month when he said that the bulk of the money was in respect of relief of rates and his colleague, the Minister for Finance, said that the lion's share of it was in that regard?
On 10th May I replied to Deputy Colley, who had asked in relation to the figure of over 50 per cent if the Minister included in that agricultural land or purely dwellinghouses. I mentioned "householders" and therefore residential. I said householders comprise the great majority of all ratepayers and that it is understood the amounts were more than 50 per cent of the total amount of rates paid. That is not what Deputy Colley asked me about a few minutes ago.
I referred the Minister to the reply he gave on 3rd May last and the reply given by his colleague, the Minister for Finance. The Minister for Local Government said that the bulk of the money was in respect of relief for dwellinghouses and the Minister for Finance spoke about "the lion's share". Now, even with a bit of juggling with the figures, the best the Minister can say is "about 50 per cent", which is the reply given to him by his civil servants but which he changed in the reply given on 10th May. I am asking the Minister to explain the discrepancy. Is it due either to the ignorance of the Ministers for Finance and Local Government about a very vital matter on which the Government made a major decision or is it because both Ministers tried to mislead the House?
It is due to the fact that the Minister gave what the position was on 10th May, and if Deputy Colley is not so good at figures—he never was very good at them—I cannot be blamed if he finds something confusing about this.
This kind of bluff will not do any more.
We cannot have a debate on this matter. This is Question Time. This must be the Deputy's last supplementary.
Some members of the Government came in here——
This is Question Time.
——and made statements which on the admission of the Minister for Local Government were untrue. Would the Minister explain to the House were these statements made in ignorance or were they made with the intention to mislead the House?
Deputy Colley said the bluff must stop. The bluff from the Government has stopped because we are here now.
Question No. 18.
I insist that the Minister for Local Government explains to the House was he trying to mislead the House——
The Chair is not responsible for the answers of either Ministers or Deputies. The Deputy cannot compel the Minister to say something he does not want to say. The Deputy has been permitted to put a fair number of supplementaries on this matter. He has a further course open to him. The Chair cannot allow a debate on the subject.
On a point of order, I know that you are as concerned as any other Member of the House, perhaps more so, to ensure that the members of the Government do not deliberately mislead the House.
The Deputy will not circumvent the decision of the Chair by trying to get around it in that way.
Surely you have a concern as much as any other Deputy to ensure this does not happen. The record shows that unless, and I gave the Minister the opportunity——
The Deputy is making a statement again.
I gave the Minister the opportunity to say that he did not know. If it is a fact that both Ministers were misleading the House, it is an extremely serious matter and you are concerned as well as the rest of us.
The Deputy will have to find another opportunity to deal with it. He cannot debate it here now.
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I propose to raise this on the Adjournment.
May I say that we succeeded in reducing rates generally this year by a substantial amount? Fianna Fáil would not have taken a shilling from the rates this year.
The Minister knows that the taxpayers have been invited to pay for the relief of rates on office blocks. He and his colleagues have tried to bluff their way out of it. The truth is out.
Deputy Colley is still talking through his hat.