Deputy Meaney has given notice of his intention to raise the subject matter of Questions Nos. 12 and 13 which were answered together today.
Adjournment Debate: British Army Border Patrols.
I understood from the Ceann Comhairle's office that what Deputy Meaney wanted to raise was, in fact, the question of permission granted by the Minister for Defence for a British Army helicopter to land on Irish territory.
I asked permission to raise Questions Nos. 12 and 13 and this was quite normal.
I am merely pointing out——
Why raise it? Why does the Minister not deal with the two questions?
I merely want to know what Deputy Meaney wants.
The Deputy indicated to my office he was referring to a Press statement in which the Minister for Defence indicated he gave permission for a British Army Helicopter to land on Irish Territory. I deem that question to be in order now.
I do not wish to have an argument with the Chair. I put down my questions as a result of an article in The Sunday Times of 16th September, 1973, which was commented on by The Irish Press and the Irish Independent. What is mentioned is allowing British Army helicopters to fly over our Border.
Are we in disagreement on the matter?
I am not in disagreement.
I am not in disagreement with the Chair. I asked permission to raise the subject matter of Questions Nos. 12 and 13. I think that is quite clear.
I would ask the Deputy to proceed on the basis the Chair has indicated.
I thank the Chair for allowing me to raise the subject matter of Questions Nos. 12 and 13. In Question No. 12 I asked the Minister for Defence if the Army authorities sought the aid of British Army helicopters for patrol duty and if he is aware of the damaging effect which their intervention could have on Army morale. In Question No. 13 I asked the Minister if the British Army authorities requested him to permit troops to cross into the Twenty-six Counties on patrol duty and, if so, I asked him to give details.
I put down two questions as a result of Press reports and other information available to me. These matters were brought to the public eye in The Sunday Times of 16th September, 1973, and they were commented on by all the Irish papers. For the record I should like to quote two of the Irish papers—The Irish Press of 17th September, 1973, and the Irish Independent of the same date.
It is with a certain sadness I raise this matter because I did not think the day would come when this would be necessary. In the newspaper reports I have mentioned the Minister stated he defended his decision to allow a British Army helicopter to fly over the Border into the South. That meant he was actually inviting the British Army to come here, to do the duty of the Irish Army.
I put down Question No. 12 because I believe it is the duty of the Irish Army authorities to carry out all patrol duties that are necessary in the Twenty-six Counties. The Minister and his Department may quibble about the use of words; they may argue whether it is "fly-over", "patrol", or "surveillance" but in this context they all mean the same and lead to the same thing. I submit the Minister should not have taken this action.
I got very unsatisfactory answers to my questions today. The Minister is quoted as saying "I will do it again". He is also quoted as saying: "In circumstances, as in any other emergency situation, permission will be given to fly across the Border". I do not wish to take this out of context but I regard it as very serious. The Minister outlined certain circumstances where he would allow British helicopters to fly over our territory. I am raising this matter in the hope that the Minister will say that that permission to the British authorities is cancelled for ever.
We have an excellent Army which are well able to carry out their duties. We have our own Parliament. We provide for our own Army out of public funds that are passed in Parliament. That is our duty. The territory belongs to us, the Army are well able to control it and to carry out their duties. I submit to the Minister he should not have made any statement without having consulted the Army and without having a request from them. All of us know that the Irish Army would never ask a Minister for Defence to ask the British Army to patrol the Twenty-six Counties. The fundamental matter is that the Irish Army have been ignored completely.
The answer given to Question No. 12 was that the Irish Army authorities had not sought the help of British Army helicopters. I want the Minister to say who invited them. The Army did not seek their help but the Minister must have gone over the heads of our Army. I always thought that the Minister for Defence of the day and the Army worked in perfect liaison, that there was always consultation between them and that any decisions of serious substance would not be taken without full discussions. It is well known that in the past they have spent many hours discussing serious matters but this has not happened in this case.
It will have a damaging effect on the morale of the Army when they see British planes flying over our territory. I am surprised to see the Minister quoted in the papers as saying he would allow Border crossings if there were wires leading to the South of Ireland because there might be someone lurking behind a bush ready to detonate a bomb. I regard that statement as an insult to our Army because they know how to carry out their duty on the Border. If the Army have not got sufficient numbers, if they have not the necessary material to maintain control on the Border, it is the duty of the Government to come to Dáil Éireann and we will give them what they want.
The position now is that there is a foreign army flying over our territory. Reports coming to me say that not alone is the Minister giving consent but they are taking permission ad lib, they are flying regularly over our territory in the Border areas. Our citizens and our Army object to this. They want to see this matter rectified as soon as possible. It is sad that the Minister did not consult with his own Army, that he did not stop to think. The Minister is trying to tell us here that he was motivated by a desire to prevent the loss of life and limb. So far as I am aware there is nobody in this House who does not subscribe to that desire, but is it not a slur on our Army for the Minister to allow the helicopters of another force to fly over our territory? Is that not saying that our Army are not capable of carrying out their duties? We have an excellent Defence Force of young Irishmen who are well-equipped and trained to carry out their duties when they are allowed do so.
According to the reported speech the Minister said that his permission was sought for incursions into the South by the British Army. I hope that the Minister will elaborate on this. He then went on to say that there was no question of the British Army operating here, but how can he reconcile this while British helicopters are allowed to fly over our territory? In Question No. 13 I asked the Minister if the British Army authorities requested him to permit troops to cross into the Twenty-six Counties on patrol duty. The Minister replied in the negative. However, when I peruse again the Minister's reported speech I read that permission was sought for incursions into the South. This is another matter I hope the Minister will elucidate when he is replying.
I should like to know also under what Act of Parliament or legislative power the Minister reached his decision. I do not know of any law whereby a Minister can allow the helicopters of an outside Army to patrol over our country. The matter involved is very serious and the situation is one which the Irish Army and the Irish people as a whole wish to see discontinued. In the reported speech of the Minister it was stated also that every occasion would be treated individually. In other words, the British authorities would find some excuse for coming to the South and could then telephone the Minister. The Minister has stated that the Army would not be contacted by the British authorities, and that is as it should be, but it is he who would be contacted. The position is tantamount to inviting the British to come in and do what they wish. It is an insult to our Army to say that they are not capable of preventing the loss of life and limb. All parties here would be only too willing to agree to the provision from public moneys of any equipment the Army may need to carry out their duties. There is grave discontent in the force and among the public on this question of patrols.
When the Minister is replying all he has to say is that he was wrong and that all permission will be withdrawn immediately. However, if the Minister takes any other line how can we expect to have morale in the Army? Would not any young man joining the Army say to himself that he might very well be sent to an area in his own country where foreign planes would be flying overhead. The Minister has told us that the Army is under strength. We should all help in so far as possible to encourage people to join the force but young men cannot be expected to join if they know that they may not have responsibility for patrol duty. The Minister has done what is tantamount to inviting the British Army to send their helicopters to this part of the country. I shall not expand the question any further because it is with sadness that I raise it at all. I can only express the hope that the Minister will abandon his idea in this regard and that he will stand behind the Irish Army and say that he has no wish for any more British helicopters or troops to cross the Border.
This is a very serious matter but I have a suspicion from the Minister's demeanour in the Dáil today and from his reported statements that he does not realise how serious it is. I do not know whether the Minister is interested but I can tell him that when this incident occurred I happened to be abroad and had no access to Irish newspapers. However, I had an English newspaper which reported the incident concerned and reported the statement by the Minister, but I did not believe what I read. I thought that this was a British newspaper publishing a statement inaccurately and misrepresenting the Minister because I could not conceive any Minister in any Irish Government doing what the Minister appears to have done. When I returned and checked I found that the report was accurate and I racked my brains to try to visualise any circumstances in which the Minister could imagine that such action as he engaged in in this instance should be justified but I could not conceive of circumstances in which he could think he was justified in his action. Our Defence Forces are charged with the duty of the defence of this State and its territory.
And its institutions.
I agree. The British Army is not so charged. One practical question arises. I asked this question of the Minister today by way of supplementary but he did not answer. I hope he will answer now in the course of his reply. Anybody hearing of what occurred would ask immediately why, if there was a job to be done, one of our helicopters could not deal with it. I wish to ask the Minister also, as Deputy Meaney asked him and as I asked him today, to indicate to the House and to the public the legal authority he claims to have to enable him to invite or to allow foreign troops on active service to fly over our territory. The Minister's action in this matter has no support whatever from this side of the House and I doubt very much if it has any support on his side of the House either. Certainly, so far as the people of this State are concerned, they will not support a Minister of any Government who invites foreign troops on active service into our territory.
Having regard to the situation that exists both in the North and in the South and in Border areas in particular the action by the Minister, even on a practical level, was irresponsible. I believe it was unconstitutional and I hope the Minister will endeavour to convince me otherwise.
I can only express the hope that what Deputies Meaney and Colley have been saying has been said in ignorance or in innocence rather than that they are attempting to play politics with the morale of the Army at this most serious stage.
Having said that, I wish to draw the attention of the House to the questions that were asked today. At the time, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle was in the Chair and he found that supplementaries were being asked which had no bearing on the questions tabled. I obeyed the Chair's ruling but that does not mean that I am not glad of the opportunity to ventilate properly and, I hope, honestly, the situation now. The first question asked was whether we sought the aid of British helicopters for patrol duty. The answer was "No". The second question asked was whether the British Army authorities requested the Minister to permit troops to cross into the Twenty-six Counties on patrol duty. Again, of course, the answer was "No" and remains "No". The subject matter now raised—and I am delighted to have the opportunity of replying to it—was given to the Ceann Comhairle's office by Deputy Meaney and was conveyed to me. It was the question of permission granted by the Minister for Defence for a British helicopter to land on Irish territory.
I am not being disrespectful to the Ceann Comhairle, but I did not ask for that.
That is the subject matter I was given. However, we have agreed that that subject matter is to be spoken about. Deputies want me to speak about it. I am delighted to have the opportunity.
First of all, it was said no permission was ever granted for a helicopter to land on Irish territory. I am now asked by Deputy Meaney under what legal authority it was done, and I am told by Deputy Colley that it was unconstitutional to give this permission. The permission is granted by the Minister for Foreign Affairs after consultation with me. If Deputy Colley, Deputy Meaney, or anybody else in the Fianna Fáil Party wishes to know the piece of legislation under which such permission is granted, it is the Air Navigation (Foreign Military Aircraft) Order S.I. No. 74 of 1952, given under the official seal of 27th March, 1952, by the late Seán F. Lemass. As I say, under this authority permission for foreign military aircraft to fly over our land must be granted expressly by the Minister for Foreign Affairs. It is the practice to consult the Minister for Defence before the decision is taken on each request.
The Minister notes I said "on active service".
Yes. The request made was for a flyover. It was made to the Minister for Foreign Affairs. He was absent at the time, and Foreign Affairs consulted my Department. I was at a Fine Gael dinner in Bailieborough and the occasion was when there was an explosive just North of the Border. I know the territory right along the Border from Narrowwater at Omeath up as far as Cavan, practically every field of it, but it is very difficult to pinpoint where the Border is. Even little streams may divide North from South. In this instance the request was made because right on the Border there was a landmine and there was a question of whether or not there were booby traps. It was probably impossible for a British Army helicopter to reconnoitre without landing on the Northern side of the Border and possibly coming a few feet or a few yards on our side. The Order of 1952 covers a situation like that, and that is why such permission was given.
May I now pass to something that is not very pleasant for me to record. I refer to an incident that took place on the 8th June, 1972, when a group of Irish Army personnel and a group of gardaí found themselves at the townland of Drumbogna on the Northern side of the Border and Clounandra on the southern side of the Cavan Border. "There being no clearly defined demarcation line"— and I am quoting from the Garda files —"it was difficult to ascertain the exact boundary and on which side of the Border the box actually was. Inspector Donegan"—and that is rather a coincidence—"was the inspector involved." You will not laugh when the next sentence comes out. "He approached the box and was bending over it to examine it closely when it exploded causing him severe injuries. He was removed by ambulance to Cavan Surgical Hospital where, following an emergency operation, he died at 11.30 p.m."
These are the matters that the Minister for Justice, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Taoiseach and myself, particularly, and all the other members of the Cabinet have to deal with. I want to assure this House and every citizen of this country that we shall deal with them responsibly and see that the minimum loss of life occurs.
I was asked to give an interview to a lady called Muriel Bowen of The Sunday Times. When that interview had been going on for five or ten minutes it became known to me that she was aware of this incident. I explained to her, as I have explained to the House now, the seriousness of the matter, the fact that an incursion may never take place even when permission is given, but that a foreign power must naturally ask for permission if, instead of sending men in to get blown up, they wish to come and look from above. They may cross or they may not. When she asked about it I said “yes” and, as a matter of common sense, in the same circumstances such permission would be given again. That has nothing to do with our sovereignty. It has nothing to do with anything except the fact that we have to decide there shall be no subversives in this country, that this Parliament is the only power——
Where were our helicopters?
(Interruptions.)
The Minister has only a few minutes to reply.
I am speaking about one possible incursion. Unless I ask some military people or the Garda, we cannot say whether they actually came the couple of feet across, but they did not send anybody in to get blown up like poor Inspector Donegan.
The Deputy asked where were our helicopters. The landmine was a few feet on the Northern side of the Border. It was not our business. The British request was a sensible one, in my view, and was sensibly acceded to. When we have business for our helicopters we will use them. We have probably one of the best rescue services on this side of the Atlantic.
The Opposition now have a duty before them. They have got to decide what side they are on. Are they on the side of law and order or are they trying to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds?
(Interruptions.)
The Dáil adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 23rd October, 1973.