Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 25 Oct 1973

Vol. 268 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27: Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a sum not exceeding £10,742,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1974, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education (including Institutions of Science and Art), for certain miscellaneous educational and cultural services and for payment of sundry grants-in-aid.

—(Minister for Education.)

Mr. Power

When I reported progress last night I had spoken at some length on this Estimate and had expended most of my ammunition. However, I have a few shots in the magazine still which I shall deliver now. I did compliment the Minister on his proposals for regionalisation and new structures in school management at all levels. I quoted from his brief where he said:

The immediate reaction to the proposals when they were aired was favourable.

I would look upon that statement as a compliment to the integrity of Fianna Fáil in their attitude to the proposals on this side of the House. It might be no harm to compare at this stage the attitude of our party with that of Opposition Members who are now in Government in regard to community schools, the furore they raised and the accusations they levelled against us about discrimination, sectarianism and so on. At that time the media all played their part in highlighting this. It amazes me how all is changed, changed utterly. A terrible silence seems now to be born. All the cribbers seem to be gone and all the Doctor Dalys and others have now gone suddenly silent. We compliment the Minister on his unique talent in bringing about this type of situation. His personality on the media comes across very well indeed. I pay tribute to him on his courageous step, and we on this side of the House will continue to act responsibly and will not hinder the educational improvements he envisages or will not endanger the educational future of the children of Ireland. I would consider this policy a continuation of the policy that was pursued by successive Fianna Fáil Ministers.

Decentralisation is welcome, and I am glad to see the people will have a direct say in the complete education of the children in every area, and that parents will get the type of education they want for their children. I note that in the document which was circulated to us, Regionalisation—Draft for Discussion the word “parent” was never used, as far as I can see, in the entire document, even though it was possibly intended that parents should have a say. It may be that parents as such are not organised and that is the reason. I would like to ask, as Deputy Hussey did, for an explanation in regard to item 2 of the preliminary draft for discussion:

The management of private secondary schools would not be interfered with by the scheme.

I, too, would like to know what is a private secondary school. Another matter on which I would like clarification is the development and maintenance of schools for the mentally and physically handicapped. At the moment the Department of Health has a certain commitment in this regard. Is it proposed that the Department of Education should take on this responsibility or will Health be expected to play its part, too?

When one examines the structure that is suggested here one comes to the conclusion that it is a broadening, on a different scale, of the existing vocational education committees who will now deal with all classes of education in an area or region. That any Department should contemplate this step is a tribute to the people who were responsible for vocational education down through the years. These are the people who were in at ground level in the 1930s and suffered great hardship. They had a very uphill struggle in laying the foundations of the system that has proved its worth today. In many cases they had to put up with a certain amount of belittling, but in spite of all that they have proved that vocational education could make the grade and was very necessary in our country.

I was a little disappointed to hear Deputy John L. O'Sullivan in the opposite benches deploring the state of schools in his area. In Kildare we had a wonderful building programme during the past ten years, and new vocational schools have been built in Naas, Maynooth, Prosperous, Kildare and Castledermot, and extensions in Rathangan and other places. This is a tribute not only to the present committee and the CEO but also to those who did the groundwork way back.

However, we do suffer from a shortage of science teachers and metalwork and woodwork teachers. The teachers we have are called for a half day here and a half day there. It is not the ideal solution, and something should be done to attract new people to our schools. There is a greater demand than ever before for night classes. We cannot meet these needs because we have not the teachers to deal with them. In my own area a woodwork class was sought but the demand could not be met. The Minister should endeavour to obtain woodwork, metalwork and applied science teachers for the whole country.

Deputy John L. O'Sullivan was inclined to blame previous administrations and previous Ministers for neglect in Clonakilty. Perhaps the Deputy should not look as far as the Department of Education, the present Minister or his predecessor. Perhaps he should look nearer home, at the structure and personnel of his local vocational educational committee. He could ask them to try and do better. Can he prove that help was refused in Clonakilty? The Deputy was most audacious to denigrate Deputy Faulkner's contribution and to say that his style of contribution was one of the reasons why we are in Opposition today.

Deputy Faulkner did more good in his few years in office than was done by the person who denigrated him in his whole life. We are told that people get the type of Government they deserve. Perhaps the people of Clonakilty are getting the type of school they deserve because in that area in west Cork they have the public representative they deserve. To their eternal credit they did not accept as a representative for many years the man who now speaks in such a manner of previous administrations and Governments.

I should like to refer to the blind and the mentally handicapped. The Minister also referred to these people. A great deal has been done to provide the blind with education. I know a blind man who got his leaving certificate in 1972. He did some training and is now a qualified telephonist. He cannot get a job with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, who have changed to a new system. This young, blind man is on a long waiting list for a Civil Service post. At present he is working part-time in a well-known café in Dublin which has recently been handed over to the workers. The workers who are now in management have a greater appreciation of the needs of the blind in regard to employment than others seem to have had.

It is not the job of the Minister or his representatives to provide jobs for people. The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and the Minister for Industry and Commerce should be worried about outlets for the end-products in their training schemes. The Minister for Education should make the remainder of the Government aware of the need to provide jobs for people who are being educated under our present system.

Mr. Coughlan

Has the Deputy not got a county council or a health board? We have worked with such bodies in Limerick.

Mr. Power

Despite the efforts of many and letters to the Minister we cannot succeed in providing jobs to the extent to which we would like for people like the man I referred to.

Such people have a certain potential. We have trained them to use that potential to the maximum. It is a pity they do not get a chance to show their paces when the Department of Education have done their duty.

I am sure the Minister is aware that there is a shortage of places for mentally handicapped in our special schools. This was highlighted by Rev. Brother Clancy, a brother of St. John of God, speaking at Celbridge recently. Places at such special schools are taken up by adults. If these adults were placed in suitable employment there would be room in these schools for other mentally handicapped people. The Minister should persuade his colleagues to follow up this point and to endeavour to provide places in industry for these people so that they can be absorbed into ordinary life or employed in sheltered workshops. We have made an effort in County Kildare. There is a firm manufacturing light upholstery. It can cater for only 18 or 20 handicapped boys. It should be the duty of somebody in Government to encourage firms to employ such people. Perhaps the bookmakers' association could take some of these people under their wing. They are making plenty of money and could make a contribution. Everyone should play a part in this work. The Government and private firms should create public awareness of the need for handicapped people. People should remember that handicaps do not refer solely to horses.

I should like to mention briefly the modern tendency towards changes in education. Not every change is good. The world is changing. Education will always be changing, but never more than in the last ten years has education changed so much. I would be very worried if I had to return to the classroom in the morning. I would need a course of more than a year's duration to prepare me for the changes which have come about. Old concepts seem to have been discarded. The emphasis is on change. The curriculum has become larger. New subjects have been introduced. My remarks might be considered very conservative and "square". Less stress is now placed on learning by rote. There is less need for strict discipline in the classroom. The tablebook, the spelling book, and the stroke of the cane, when necessary, must still have a place in our national schools at least. In years to come I venture to forecast that these very items will be put back into our structures and will be hailed as innovations. I appeal to the Minister not to encourage change just for the sake of change.

Before I came into this building yesterday I noticed the students of the College of Art sitting outside. Some were drawing. One handed me a statement. They say they are very worried about the unfair sacking of four of their colleagues. They are worried also because they cannot understand how Deputies who were in Opposition some time ago—particularly the present Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Garret FitzGerald, and the present Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Keating—and others who were Don Quixotes and Sir Galahads, who worried about every maid in distress, have become so silent now. The plight of the students in the College of Art no longer seems to worry them. I suggest to the Minister that dialogue is necessary between us and our next-door neighbours. We are told that dialogue is necessary with our brethren in Northern Ireland if we are to bring about reconciliation. Dialogue is probably necessary between the different sections of Fine Gael and the Labour Party over the changing of the constituencies and the appointment of judges. If dialogue is necessary between colleagues who are so closely knit and who seem to be such friends, it must surely be necessary between us and our next-door neighbours.

I emphasised to the students of the College of Art that the Ministers had onerous duties and that the Minister for Finance was busy counting the money and looking after everybody's needs and deciding whether he should tax all the farmers, that the Minister for Industry and Commerce, too, had tax on his mind, and that they had not time to deal with frivolous items like this. They cannot understand this and it might be just as well to talk to the students anyway. It is not nice for anybody not to be talking to his next door neighbours. As the College of Art is a direct responsibility of the Minister for Education, he might interest himself in this end and endeavour to bring about a more sociable atmosphere, at least between our neighbours and ourselves.

I feel pretty strongly on the question of the teaching of history in our schools. There appears to be a great upsurge of interest in the teaching of history recently. At one time inspectors came into the schools and worried very much about what we did not teach, now it appears that people are worried about what we do teach. Deputy Cruise-O'Brien felt last year that there was a danger that the teaching of history in our schools would produce little IRA men. I maintain that the misrule of this country produced little and big IRA men and to ignore this misrule, either past or present, will not help to eradicate it.

History should deal with facts. Whether those facts are palatable or not, an unprejudiced account is required, and a training of our students to draw their own conclusions is needed. That is what history teaching is all about. Ireland suffered generations of persecution and our children will have to be told this. It is necessary to point this out to pupils, to explain why we are lacking in certain developments today, why our industrial development has lagged behind that of other countries, why our minds possibly have not been developed. Possibly it is a good thing that they did not discover the natural resources we had underneath our ground some hundred years ago or, like the trees the previous Minister was so sorry we had not got, they, too might have been taken away. Those facts cannot be hidden from children and should be explained to them. The fact that Britain wronged our country for years and continues to wrong this country by endeavouring to hold on to six northern counties must be told to children too. The fact that a British contrived majority can outweigh a nationally-minded minority in that small portion of our country does not absolve Britain from its duty to undo the wrongs that it has done.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is hardly relevant on an Estimate for Education.

Mr. Power

Our party's first aim is based on that and I will not be a party to the watering down of our history to suit the delicate palates of anybody, particularly those the purity of whose motives I have every reason to doubt.

Our national education system was founded in 1832. That was the first opportunity for many Irish people to become educated or to learn. In the 140 odd years since then they have struggled through famine and Fenianism, land wars and great wars and it has given us the people that we have in Ireland today. I would see a direct link between this opportunity for education the Irish people got for the first time, starting in the 1830's, and the Irish revival, whether it be Gaelic or literary, military or national, at the turn of this century. The advent of an educational system of our own was a precursor of the proportion of freedom we now enjoy. In any branch of teaching, and particularly in the teaching of history, the teachers of Ireland have nothing to feel ashamed of. We have helped to foster a feeling of Irishness in our people that has never accepted the idea that we are a province of Britain. Other Celtic communities, such as Scotland and Wales, have—maybe grudgingly—but they have accepted it. I feel that history itself will deal very sharply with anyone who proposes a wishy-washy type of history for our pupils in this State of Ireland or as some might prefer to call it, the States of Ireland, today. I would appeal to the Minister not to allow his party to be a party to such a scheme.

One item I should like to emphasise to the Minister is his duty and all our duties in the educational priority areas. Those are now easily discerned and we should designate them. The area in Ireland is small. We should create conditions that will help to eradicate the disadvantaged pupil and the disadvantaged parent. Those people, because of their environment, because of their history, because of their lack of material goods possibly, lack the motivation to learn.

It should be one of our priorities to create conditions that will give them the incentive to learn and we should strive to remove the reasons for their rebellious attitude and the tendencies towards "mitching" and subsequent vandalism that we have today. It is not widespread as yet but what is happening in America, in Britain and on the Continent might give us a warning of what we should expect in the years to come. While we have not as yet the vandalism they experience in other countries we should be warned and take steps to ensure that that will not happen. There is an attitude in the disadvantaged pupil of antagonism towards school and society and law. We should learn from other countries, improve school conditions and give preferential treatment to this type of parent and pupil. We should help to brighten the school, improve the teacher-pupil ratio. I do not mean one to 45. I mean something much more realistic that would give individual attention to this type of pupil. In an area where books are not plentiful and in homes where reading is not encouraged some pre-school education might be a help as well as the availability of books and game facilities, sports fields, swimming pools and gymnasia. We should think about those things and act now while we are in a position to deal with the problem. As yet it is of small proportions, but in a year or two it could be a much greater problem. If we do not deal with it now the disadvantaged pupil will become the disadvantaged parent who will perpetuate this problem in the years to come.

May I again wish the Minister the best of luck in his very onerous Ministry. I can appreciate that he and his predecessors were all endeavouring to do the best they could for the students of Ireland. I should like to pay a tribute to Deputy Pádraig Faulkner, who solved many problems during his ministry. I would say he left no unfinished business or no half-baked policies behind him. The Minister will agree that he did not inherit any insoluble problems or anything that was caused by lack of attention during the previous ministry. I see in Deputy Bruton a young man who has not much of a generation gap to bridge when dealing with youth, sport and his other commitments. I wish him luck.

Mar focal scoir, guím rath Dé ar an obair ins na laetheannta, nó ins na míosa nó—Dia idir sinn agus an t-olc—ins na blianta atá agaibh in oifig.

Mr. Coughlan

I will confine myself to a very narrow field. Education covers a very vast area in the development of our youth and in creating good citizens. For the information of Deputy Power, the needs of the blind are catered for and are within his own jurisdiction as a public representative in County Kildare. In the mid-Western Health Board, and prior to that in the Limerick Health Authority, we appointed two blind telephonists and we have a first-class blind physiotherapist.

Fianna Fáil are moaning and groaning. Now that they are in Opposition they can do nothing else, and they were never capable of doing anything else. This has been proved by our achievements in such a short time. Deputy Power should drag himself and his party together in Kildare and realise that the initiative in this field must come locally. While he decried the action of his own colleague in west Cork, Deputy Crowley, I must say that he himself is lacking in what he should be doing in Kildare. When the balance is reversed the wound opens and the salt is not so easily accepted.

Mr. Power

You have blinkers on yourself, Steve.

Mr. Coughlan

I do not need blinkers. I can look to the left and the right, and fore and aft at times.

Mr. Power

You do not like looking behind you.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. Members should be referred to as Deputies.

Mr. Coughlan

I am not a Cassandra. I wanted to make those few remarks for the benefit of the boys from Kildare. I want to congratulate the Minister. In the short time he has been in office he has proved himself to be a man of courage, a man of ability and a man who will make a decision. Nobody is in a better position to acknowledge his achievements than I, since I represent Limerick and region. This is to his eternal credit.

Some years ago in the time of some of his predecessors, we started agitations about the educational potential in Limerick city and region, with the city as the spearhead and the capital of regional development in education. We agitated. We hired special trains for students from the region. We paraded through the streets of Dublin. We were received in Marlborough House. We organised the whole region to make our demands felt. We were fobbed off by Ministers for Education with promises and promises. I will never forget the promises given during the by-election in Limerick. We were promised university status the day after the count by the then Minister for Education, now Senator Lenihan. We were to turn the first sod for a university in Limerick the day after the count. We were promised all that during the by-election. I suppose we will have to pass over those things, make allowances for the weaknesses of the people concerned and treat them with the charity which is always forthcoming from these benches.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

Thank you.

Mr. Coughlan

I am benevolent at times. I very seldom came here in any spirit of criticism, even in the Minister's predecessors' time. I want to be as helpful as I can. There are many facets of the educational field generally. You can apply education to practically all phases of life, and to young and old. In a more or less selfish way, I suppose, I want to confine myself to the needs, as I see them, of my city and my region. I do not believe entirely in regionalisation but I do agree with it where education is concerned.

We will be discussing regionalisation at another time, I presume. It can be very dangerous and very inhuman but where education is concerned I am 100 per cent behind it. It is the only answer. In our approach to regionalisation we must not forget the teacher-pupil relationship that comes from the national school level. We must have the confidence of the pupil in the teacher and we must have communication between the teacher and the pupil if we are to produce the end product at university or academic level, or within the crafts.

In his Estimate this year the Minister has poured an extra £18 million into education. I know that if it were possible that figure would be doubled and trebled. It is a long time since we had such an approach to our educational problems and to the advancement of education as we have in the Estimate. It goes back to the late Tom Derrig who projected such a powerful image in this field. Of course, he had open ground to plough and it was easily done. It is difficult today when there is so much competition and when there are advances whether computerised, or "electronicised", or any other "ised". We are moving in a field of education today which was unforeseeable ten or 15 years ago. I am glad we have a Minister with the capacity and the grit and the ability to tackle the problems presented in 1973. We are lucky to have him and may God spare him long days to be with us.

I am glad the Minister has stressed the fact that we must have dialogue, consultation, talk—call it what you will. To me it is parsed and analysed in one sentence, that is, communication between the four involvements: school management, parents, teachers, students. When we have—as the Minister has set out to achieve—equality of motive, equality of thought and discussion at that level, there is no fear that I can see for the future of education in a European competitive field.

We will have disagreements, expected and unexpected, during these talks. Around the table is the place for solutions rather than, as we had from Fianna Fáil, teachers' and pupils' strikes. Every now and then students carrying strike banners parade outside the College of Art. I know a little about students who make art their career, because a nephew of mine teaches art in Kilkenny. Many students are wasting the time and money of their parents and, in my view, should be sent to Grangegorman for an IQ test. This is a phase they are going through. Not until they pull themselves out of the College of Art or their parents' money runs out will they realise what education is all about.

I wish to discuss a matter which, I am sure, is dear to everybody, and that is the rehabilitation of the handicapped child. Much has been said about the education of the handicapped. "Handicapped" means many things. It can be severe, mild, physical or mental. As a finance-raiser in Limerick for the handicapped school, I found what I had to do degrading.

The late Donnchadha O'Malley and myself organised crazy football matches—O'Malley v. Coughlan. We organised flag days, dances and church collections to raise money to provide a school and transport for the handicapped children. At the time it was topical for O'Malley and Coughlan to clash and we exploited that. We raised enough money to buy a minibus and open a school, which was kindly given to us by the late Bishop of Limerick, Dr. Murphy. We did this by voluntary effort. That was a shame and a disgrace to the Fianna Fáil Government. Let them never forget that. We went around Limerick on Church Holydays and asked people to help those unfortunate children. This should not be done by any outside organisation but rather by the Department of Education. The Deputies who come here moaning and groaning should remember their history and what they have done in this field.

Having advised Deputy Power on the rehabilitation of the blind, I should now like the Minister to make some contribution towards the cost of lead dogs. A trained lead dog costs something in the region of £200. German shepherds and labradors can be trained to lead the blind and from what I have seen they are more intelligent than many people imagine.

Mention was made of racecourses and bookmakers. There is a blind telephonist at the regional head post office in Limerick and nothing gives him more pleasure than going to race-meetings within the Limerick area. He goes with his wife to Limerick Junction, Clonmel and Limerick Races on his days off and enjoys every bit of it. I cannot understand people who say that nothing is being done. If they make up their minds that something can be done, they should go ahead and do it and not come here complaining, morning, noon and night, when it is within their own capacity to do something about it.

I want to congratulate the Minister for Education and the Minister for Health on the provision of a school in Limerick for the Brothers of Charity—I should not call it a school but a village. The Minister for Health turned the sod one day last week. £2 million has been spent on this scheme for the provision of accommodation for handicapped children. The Minister's predecessors would get a paralytic stroke if they thought, or it was suggested, that that amount should be spent on this development. The Minister has done it and we thank him for it. The £2 million to the Brothers of Charity was made up in different ways. The health board, the Department of Health and the Department of Education are making up this money. There will be the usual sheltered workshops and the general rehabilitation programmes from the day they enter this school until they leave as first-class people in whatever craft they wish to take. Much has been achieved, if the blind would only consent to see. I cannot take the jaundice from the yellow eye and there is no use trying to convince these people that these things can be done. They can be done and they are being done. Let us remember that.

I should like to touch on the subject of the backward child. While some of us were front-runners in our own class at school, there were others who tailed off. These were human beings also and something should have been done to help them. I know classes are graded A, B, C, honours and pass, but there is more to it than that. There is a vacuum between the D class and the E or F class. We must be careful not to embarrass the pupil or give him a complex which would jeopardise his future and his adult life. Students and children can develop an inferiority complex which may remain with them throughout their lives. This is something we must avoid in the case of backward pupils. The front runner is OK, although many front runners fall by the wayside because they learn too easily. The pupils in the centre who have to work hard in order to pass an examination are the ones who ultimately succeed. They have to stay up half the night studying Euclid, Cicero, Shakespeare. We all studied these things long ago and were receptive enough to what was being stuffed into our heads.

The backward pupil must not be allowed to develop an inferiority complex. He must be allowed to develop at his own pace. It is a pity that Deputy Power is not here. He realises that the racehorse who wins at the Curragh and the donkey that takes milk to the creamery both work to the best of their capacity. We must all work according to our capacity. If we were all the same, the world would become a lunatic asylum. I would advise the Minister to apply himself to the problem of the backward student. We all know of boys and girls who are not able to keep pace with the other students and who when they leave school feel that they are behind everybody else. My concept of education is that it should prepare children for the battle of life.

There is the case of the wayward child who commits some offence. He is brought to the court and given the benefit of the First Offenders Act. He commits a second offence and receives a warning from the district justice. The day comes when action has to be taken and he is sent to a reform school, to Daingean or some filthy hole. In some cases, because of the fact that there is no room in a reform school, the boy is sent to the nearest prison. This environment is all wrong. We must set about the rehabilitation of the wayward. It is not an easy task. One may try to coax or nurse a wayward boy or to take him away from his associates, to no avail. There should be a course of psychiatry to help these wayward children from the age of 12 to 18. Such a course would be designed to teach them that they must conform to normal standards. There is some want in these children. We all know of cases where that want does not come from the parents. There are children who get into trouble every day of the week. They steal or they absent themselves from school. They stay out at night. They are a continuous worry to their parents. These children feel that they are rejected by society. They are stubborn. Some means of handling this section of our community should be devised.

There is a problem in regard to school books. When I attended school the fee was one penny a week. The Christian Brothers fought a hard battle. They upheld their identity. They refused to be taken over by a foreign government. They brought education to the people. They did a tremendous job. At that time the school books could be used from one year to the next. Boys leaving a class could pass their books on to those coming into that class. Today the school books change every year. A school book may cost £5. Next year the books will be changed again. I would suggest that the books we used in the early twenties were as good as, if not better than, the school books available today but they were much less expensive. The Minister should make things easy for parents by stipulating that over a period of four or five years the school books would not be changed. For instance, in the school in Plessey they are doing Russian. I had to pay £6 last week for a book in Russian which was not obtainable in Limerick or Cork. It is one of the languages my daughter is pursuing at the moment. It is all very well if one has the £6. A new penny or a five pence piece is not very much to have, but it is a "helluva" lot to want. We must consider those who want. There are unfortunate people who cannot afford things and they deserve to be considered.

With regard to Irish history, it has been said, possibly with some degree of truth, that history is the lie that has been agreed on. I think there is a great deal of truth in that. Only out of the past, out of the achievements of our ancestors, can we provide for the present and look forward to the future. Our glorious past and all the toils and tribulations of our forebears should not be wiped out as if they were a bad debt. Children should be taught about these things in the classroom and in the sanctity of the home. We should never forget the achievements of those who went before us.

We have our so-called modern historians. One sees them in print and one hears them on the media. Some of the history they produce is quite unrelated to our culture and our traditions. We must hold on to our culture and our traditions just as we should hold on to whatever we have at the present time, because it is on what we have and do today that we will be adjudged by those who follow us. Let us take inspiration from the past and let us follow the example of those who were prepared to pay so much. These are my views and I am quite certain I am not alone in them. We must cherish the past. I would appeal to the Minister to keep this aspect in mind in the curriculum.

We are well provided with decent, up-to-date schools. Where schools are not what they should be—we have heard people talking about rat-infested schools, broken doors and windows and roofs in need of repair—nobody is responsible for that position except the local representative. He is the man who should set about rectifying that situation where it exists. If he acts as he should—I do not care what party he belongs to—I am sure the Minister will give his representations the same weight that he gave to the representations in regard to Dún Chaoin.

Local organisations should apply themselves to these things and, if they do not do so, then any defects that exist can be laid at their doors. If it does not come from the ground it will not come down from the sky. That is my advice to those who come in here shouting their heads off about what should or should not be done in our schools.

There are all kinds of anomalies where free transport is concerned. It is left to the county CEO, the manager or two or three other people to decide whether or not children should have free transport. A half empty bus will pass by five or six children and half-a-mile further along it will pick up five or six children. They are all attending the same school and the five the bus passes by must trudge wearily along in its wake. There is no flexibility. The quads are going to school but, because they are not attending the same school that their older brothers and sisters attended, they will not get free transport.

I made representations on their behalf and I was turned down. I was told they were not within the catchment area. Who draws the line? There are too many faceless people involved. One approaches one person and is told to see somebody else and when one approaches that person one is referred to someone else again. One is like a fool in a fog. These unfortunate children have to trudge the road in winter rain and frost and snow. They could easily be transported by bus. There is no sense in this and I would ask the Minister to put an end to this practice. The bus is there and if there is room in it the children should be allowed to travel on it. I am completely against the present selectivity. This is not what I mean when I talk about Irish tradition and culture and the education of our children. I take a strong view on this. I would ask the Minister to rectify this classification as between one and another. This is what has destroyed this country.

Pupil guidance is an innovation and is most welcome. In the past what mattered was the wealth of the parents. I knew of people who spent from ten to 20 years trying to qualify from the College of Surgeons, Trinity College or from the National University. They were able to spend all these years in college solely because their parents could provide for them although one wonders about the end product. It is essential for teachers and parents to come together and do what is best for the children. It is not a question of what the adults want. What is important is to ensure that the children are placed in a situation best suited to their talents. The ambitions of the parents are not important; what counts is what the student is capable of and where he will make most progress.

This country has recently begun to realise the importance of the skilled trades. They are as good as, if not better than, the professions, and we are all glad about this. The people in the trades may not have to wear a collar and tie, they may have to go to work early each morning, but they have as much in their pay packet as the alleged professionals or academics. Career guidance can play a major part in helping young people make their decisions regarding their jobs. Certainly, these courses should be able to place the young people where they are most suited. If a man is content in his work he will be successful. Otherwise he will be a misfit, or a "spoiled priest" as we said long ago. The only way we can ensure that we do not have misfits is by providing an adequate guidance course.

I should like to refer to a topic that might be called "the plum of the day". I should like to congratulate the Minister on what he has done for Limerick city and region. He has given a sum of £18 million for the Limerick Institute and I am glad that the headquarters are in Limerick city. However, it is not a Limerick city effort. It will cater for the region and for the West of Ireland. I am glad that we have the daughter of the Parliamentary Secretary from Mayo as well as many other people from the west of the country in this institute. I am pleased the Minister has gone a step further and has done what his predecessors promised but failed to do. When they were faced with the situation they funked it. The justice of our cause has been shown beyond doubt. We fought this matter in Marlborough Street and in this House, and we debated it throughout the region involved. We always got the usual answer "it will be done" from Fianna Fáil. They did nothing and if anyone says otherwise he is guilty of an utter deception. The Minister has done something for the Limerick region for which he will gain personal credit. I am glad to pay tribute to him today; otherwise I should be lacking in responsibility.

The Limerick project will cater for 6,000 students and Fianna Fáil should think about this. The previous Minister for Education yesterday gave us a litany of the dead for 3½ hours although I did not listen to all he had to say. All the troubles and turmoil of the world had nothing on what he had to say. He repeated ad nauseam what he did when he was in office but as far as Limerick is concerned he just turned his back on the area. He was not alone in this because his predecessors did the same.

I would ask the Minister to meet the Limerick University Project Committee as early as possible perhaps, with the public representatives. I have not discussed this matter with the Minister; I am only judging him by his actions and they speak much louder than words. We should be very clear what a university means to a region. I am not going to discuss this matter because the advantages of a university should be obvious, even to Fianna Fáil.

I wish the Minister a long term in office. I hope when the Taoiseach is selecting his Cabinet after the next election he will not overlook the excellent work carried out by the Minister.

Ruairí Brugha

Ba mhaith liom ar dtús tréaslú leis an Aire as a cheapadh mar Aire Oideachais. Tá súil agam go ndéanfaidh sé sár-obair ar ár son go léir. Ba mhaith liom chomh maith focal buíochais a ghabháil leis an iar-Aire mar gheall ar an tréan-iarracht a rinne sé nuair a bhí sé sa Roinn ar son cúrsaí oideachais.

On this Estimate I wish to speak on one aspect of policy alone which is referred to in the Minister's speech, that is, that relating to the change in the status of Irish in the Department of Education. I choose to speak on it in English because English is the main medium of communication, and if I were to do so through Irish the record available would be in Irish only and would not be likely to be as widely read as if I spoke in the English language.

The Minister in his speech refers to the policy of selective compulsion which, to use his words, "proved so disastrous for the Irish language over the last 50 years". What the Minister is referring to here is the manner in which the State has endeavoured to bring about the desired revival of Irish through the schools system. In so far as administrations since the foundation of the State had good intentions and many educational and voluntary fields put great effort and enthusiasm into their work in relation to this question, their efforts should be appreciated and commended. In so far as only marginal progress has been made, despite the amount of energy, time and money that have been put into this sphere, all administrations and parties must bear some share of the responsibility.

In addressing myself to this subject I am not doing so in any party political sense. I am interested in the national aspect of the question. We are all aware of the chequered history of the language in the educational system. Many of us for a number of years have been highly critical of the methods which have been applied to try to bring about an atmosphere in which Irish could be a means of communication. Language is a means of communication which grows with a community, but our treatment of it as a school or academic subject has obscured the fact that a language cannot live unless there is fluency in communication.

In recent years there has been and there is still going on research into the problems relating to the language, into the motivational area and into the various means whereby one could try to achieve more progress. Fluency itself has been discouraged by many aspects of language policy—for example, the compulsory aspect of the academic examination system which we had and which was not achieving the original objective anyway: the ability to speak and communicate. I should correct myself here by saying that in some large areas it was not achieving its objective. Nevertheless, the fact that many of us can speak the language means that there was some achievement at any rate.

Other aspects which have affected and delayed progress relate, for example, to the attitude in the home, indeed, to the attitude in politics itself, and to the fact that in the minds of many people the language tends to be associated with the poorest and most economically backward areas of our country. Another factor which influences the situation, I believe, is a sense of inferiority or, perhaps one might call it, shoneenism which is part of the heritage of this nation. The change which the Minister and his Government have introduced is not one on which I shall comment other than to say that it is Government policy and in so far as it may help us to see what progress can be made, we should welcome it. I myself would tend to regard it as something in the nature of a trial to see if this is one of the means which would encourage the more widespread use of the language than as a long-term policy.

I had mentioned that up to the time of the election of this Government many of us have been very critical in recent years of the policy in regard to the Irish language in the educational system. This was being examined and recommendations were being put to the previous Administration in regard to somewhat radical changes in this area. Briefly the sort of recommendation being put was that a test in oral and written communication in Irish should take the place of the required literary examination, with all the difficulties relating to it in grammar, poetry, literature et cetera. It is felt that any lesser requirement than this could mean that the Irish language might not maintain its position, let alone improve its use, as a medium of communication.

I have said I do not wish to engage in any controversy about the change which has been made. The brief comment I would make is that one is now faced in examinations with the language as one of the subjects from which a choice can be made. It is where there is choice and where there is the lack of social motivation in regard to the use of Irish that we reach a dilemma. One of the major problems in relation to the question of Irish, apart from giving young people fluency in it which is quite difficult to do if they are trying to tie that in with the passing of academic examinations, is that where there is no social motivation it is very difficult to keep the language alive. There is widespread motivation in relation to the English language. Some people would use stronger words than "social motivation", but I am trying to convey the sort of problem which exists.

The Minister and members of the Government have spoken in favour and in support of the Irish language. I hope that the Minister and the Government in their overall responsibility for the language will be prepared to review progress in regard to the use of Irish as a spoken language. The Minister has said that substantial achievement has been accomplished. I am not going to comment on this. I am more concerned with what will take place in the future. I hope that the Minister and his colleagues will be prepared to reconsider present policy at a later stage. I hope that whatever Government are in office the Minister and his colleagues will do that. If the present policy is not achieving the desired effect and especially if it emerges that the policy is having a weakening effect I hope that it will be reconsidered. That is why I am speaking in a non-political context.

I would have more to say about the public position in regard to the language if I knew exactly whose responsibility it is within the State. It seems to me at present to lie with the Minister for Education, the Taoiseach, the Minister for the Gaeltacht and the Minister for Finance. I am merely posing a question that has been the subject of discussion in the past among some of us.

I believe that the intelligent policy for Irish publicwise, not in relation to education specifically, is that of a gradually developing bilingualism. I do not think, if we are to face the problem squarely, that a language can suddenly become spoken. A start must be made. We must move forward in easy stages. This is where the social motivation and ease of use comes in. If we believe we should retain and develop a clear sense of our own identity now and in the future we will try to undertake and adopt a policy which will bring an improvement in the spoken use of the Irish language over a long period. A great deal of future development in this regard will depend on our own sincerity and on the example which those of us in public affairs, and in leadership in many other areas of life are willing to give. In so far as the Minister is making genuine efforts in this regard he will have my full support.

Mrs. Desmond

A Cheann Comhairle, I thank you for the opportunity of speaking in this debate.

The Estimate which we have before us is a very large one accounting for £126.25 million, £18.75 million more than last year. It is fundamentally important so far as all of us are concerned. The large number of Deputies seeking to contribute to the debate is an indication of the increasing interest in education throughout the country. As far as those of us who are Members of this House are concerned, it is right that so many of us should seek to express our particular interest in education. It is through the educational system that the ideals that brought many of us into public life will be achieved. It is through that system that equality of opportunity for all citizens will be achieved and that we can enable people to live a good life and to have personal fulfilment. It is through this system that attitudes and prejudices will be eradicated and the stage set for better progress in the future. Our industrial life will also advance through education. Through education we will have peace and harmony in the future.

There is no need to say that education is a priority. In his Estimate speech the Minister enumerated some of his priorities. I have no intention of delving into every aspect of the Minister's speech at this stage. I was happy to find that in relation to school buildings he has allocated an additional £5 million this year. His prime concern is that the needs of rapidly developing areas should be attended to. This is important for me in the area I represent. In the constituency of Mid-Cork there are rapidly developing communities. There are satellite towns where the pressure on existing school facilities is very great. Such areas are Ballincollig, Carrigaline and the environment of Cork city generally. In Ballincollig the population has increased eightfold in a period of four years. There are 1,000 children under four years of age there and the clamour for additional educational facilities in that area is great. I hope that the Minister will receive a deputation from that area in the near future in connection with the educational services and buildings in the area generally. I am confident that he will be convinced of the justice of the case they will have to make. My own town, Carrigaline, is in a similar position. Unless action towards the provision of accommodation is taken quickly we will have a crisis situation in a short time.

The school transport system is transporting 143,000 students each day, 32,000 more than last year. This was a tremendous innovation and we give all credit to the Minister who introduced it, but it is valid to state at this stage that the system needs reformation and needs to be expanded. The volume of representations which we in rural areas have to make in this regard is quite phenomenal. There is a clamour for expansion of the service. The grievances that exist with regard to it are very numerous. As far as the average parent is concerned there exists a maze of regulations. We are familiar with them and know the system but to the average parent they are quite incomprehensible. All the average parent knows is that he or she does not want a child to have to walk several miles along a lonely road. The parent is concerned for the child's health and for a child's safety in regard to traffic and otherwise. I do not blame parents. I have a ten-year-old child who is lucky enough to live within a few hundred yards of her school, but if she had to walk one-and-a-half or two miles along a country road I would be worried. What I want for my own child I want for all children. It is important that the Minister should review, expand and improve the school transport system. It needs improvement, particularly in so far as it caters for mentally handicapped children.

There are such children in County Cork and we are very lucky in that we have fairly adequate facilities for the education of mentally handicapped children. Those children are picked up at very far flung points throughout the country on Monday morning and deposited back on Friday evening. Many of them are asked to travel distances of up to 12 miles to the pickup points. Some parents have no private transport and, even in cases where they have, the father must take the family car to his place of employment. The result is increased hardship on already heavily burdened families. I would appeal to the Minister to apply the system as leniently as he can in the case of mentally handicapped children.

I am very heartened by the research work that has been undertaken in regard to disadvantaged or underprivileged children. This is a very complex problem. It involves the family of the child and indeed the attitudes in the community from which the child comes. Of course, it is a vicious circle. Such attitudes are very often hardened by the attitude of people outside that community towards those who live within. We all know the employer who fails to employ otherwise suitably educated and trained personnel because they come from a particular address. Such snobbery is despicable, but it exists and it embitters those discriminated against to the point when many of them believe there is no use in trying. While it is a question of changing attitudes within the deprived community, we must also ensure that many of those who are privileged change their attitude to them. It is an enormous problem, but its solution is basic to the building of a society where there is equality of opportunity. We are all indebted to all concerned with the Rutland Street experiment. I hope that all the dedicated work that has gone into it by teachers, by psychologists, by social workers and all others concerned, will produce something that can be utilised to effect in other areas.

I was disappointed to hear Deputy Power in this year of 1973, with all the evidence we have that we should not encourage violence, advocating the use of the cane in schools. Above all else, I deplore institutionalised violence. I disagree totally with Deputy Power on this matter.

The democratisation of education is something to which the Minister referred. The involvement of parents at all levels is a welcome development. At second level, the community school is the ideal because of its wide-ranging educational and recreational facilities, and because of its potential to involve people. It is the answer particularly to the problems of the new communities. There will be a big clamour within these communities for the establishment of community schools. In those schools the continuing process of education can be dealt with, the problem of the married woman whose skills are obsolete or who because of the attitude towards women when she was at school, has no skill at all. Through those establishments she can be fitted into the work force to have a full and complete life when her children are reared.

We know the Minister cannot make money and all this will cost a great deal, but the country and this House must decide to make available increasing amounts for education. Where community schools cannot be provided every effort must be made, and is being made, to bring about co-operation between existing facilities. We must ensure that the things that are lacking will be provided in these areas. I have in mind particularly the position in vocational schools, where expansion will not take place because of rationalisation. In some of those schools facilities for pupils and teachers are pretty primitive. I know that, in many of the vocational schools I have had occasion to visit teachers work in conditions in which people would not normally be expected to work by the standards that apply to workers generally today.

I agree with Deputies who have referred to career guidance. This is vital. I know there is the practical problem of having enough people trained for this service and I know that you cannot bring into operation over-night a service of any kind. At the moment in many cases parents are completely at sea in trying to plan the education of their children at any level. They are not sure whether to send them to secondary schools or to vocational schools. In Cork city, the entrance examinations for all the schools in the city area are held on the same day. Parents must choose some school and, due to the competition, it is inevitable that many of them will not get admission to the school they choose. They have no second choice. The result is panic and confusion. Things sort themselves out somehow and there is no question of a pupil not finding a place in some educational establishment, but there is no advice for such parents, no coordinating system, no guidance. As a result there must be many square pegs in round holes, and vice versa.

If the children go to vocational schools they do their group certificates and the guidance in this area seems to be pretty good. AnCO is doing a very good job and making good advances in this area. I do not think that so far the same advances are being made in the secondary schools counterparts. Other speakers mentioned this yesterday. There is a hectic frenzy. Secondary school children are urged on by parents and school authorities to secure as many honours as they can in their intermediate certificate. The Minister implied in his speech that he is aware that the introduction of the system of grades has not really caught on. The question still is how many honours you got in your intermediate certificate.

Then the pupils go into fifth year and they are really high and dry. The frenzy and the excitement of the intermediate certificate are over and now the pupils have to decide where their aptitudes really lie, what subjects they should drop, and what subjects they should pursue further, what is essential in which faculty, and what is essential for which job. We should all do something to remedy the wastage and the frustration and the lack of guidance before next year.

I know that many efforts are made, UCC, the university with which I am most familiar, tries to provide some form of guidance for the secondary schools in the catchment area through a system of lectures. Some of the schools do not avail of this service or of any other service and I suppose in other areas the service may not be available to the schools. Certainly many schools have no guidance whatsoever available for the pupils. The Minister is probably much more alert to that problem than I am. From my own limited experience of it I would appeal to him to treat this as a matter of priority because it is creating a lot of wastage, a lot of frustration and injustice.

Before I leave second level education I want to mention two other matters which merit mention. One is the system of free books for necessitous pupils. The idea was that decisions on allocations would be left to the school principal or manager. The system is haphazard at best. Schools seem to apply different criteria. Some schools use the medical card as the yardstick. Others restrict the scheme to pupils whose parents are not working or to one-parent pupils. It has come to my knowledge that two or three children in the same family have all been treated differently in the provision of free school books by virtue of the fact that they were attending different schools all within the one community. Some schools provide free books up to a set figure, such as £5, or what have you. I believe that the system should be scrapped as soon as it is practicable to do so. It creates "haves" and "have nots" in a system in which we are trying to bring about equality in our society.

The other matter is the system of the purchase of school books at the beginning of each school year. I will never forget the long queues outside the bookshop in Cork city—and I expect Dublin was worse—at the commencement of the school year last September. As a parent I joined several of those queues at different times. For quite some time I could not stick it out until I got to the book counter. When I finally got to the book counter 50 per cent of what I wanted either had not come in at all or had been sold out and was being reprinted. Surely there must be a better system. Surely the list could be issued to the parents or to the schools in advance of school opening. Surely the books could be available in the shops in advance of the school opening to avoid all this chaos. Pending the time when all pupils will have free books available to them this system should be streamlined. Surely something could be done to eliminate the chaos and frustration and the clamour for books at the beginning of the school year.

At third level the entrance qualification for pupils whose intelligence and monetary background qualify them for grants should be put on a par with those who, because they have enough money, need no such qualifications. I know that £469,500 extra was spent on higher education grants this year and it was good to see the grants being gradually extended to the more technical subjects and pursuits.

The problem of overcrowding in certain faculties in our universities is a very big one requiring a huge infusion of funds, funds of a magnitude which I know is not readily available. I note in the Minister's speech that plans for UCC where large overcrowding exists have been approved, but there is no indication as to when this work will start and some relief given. Perhaps the Minister would give us some indication of when this work might get under way. Like Deputy Burke who raised the question of the Cork Dental Hospital, I want to say that this is a vital question for us in County Cork. Deputy Wyse will probably have more to add on that subject. An assurance from the Minister on that question would be very gratifying indeed.

There are many other aspects of education with which I could deal but many of them have been dealt with by other Deputies and I do not want to delay the House further. I join with the expressions of good wishes to the Minister and I share the confidence expressed in this House in the past two days in his capacity and in his commitment to education. I know that because of the backlog of work to be done on the social services generally, and the demands such services will make on the available funds, the Minister cannot progress at the pace he would progress at if the money were available to him. I am very confident that education will receive its due from this Government and from this Minister.

Mr. Wyse

I will try to avoid any repetition but having listened to the many contributions made, it will be difficult to avoid some repetition.

Education is the concern of all. Everyone has a part to play to ensure that we reach perfection in our educational policy. Structures and approaches to education change. It is important that the Minister and his officials be prepared at all times to consult the many interests in this field. I am glad that the Minister feels that, with the co-operation and guidance of all those best qualified to participate in the work, a system may be evolved which will be in keeping with the needs and aspirations of our people.

I wish the Minister every success in his office. I have no doubt he will dedicate himself to this work. I should also like to pay a tribute to his predecessor on his efforts and his dedication to his duties as Minister for Education. Everyone will agree that he built a structure for a very comprehensive educational policy.

I must compliment the Minister on his lengthy and comprehensive brief. A notable absence which has been referred to by Deputy Mrs. Desmond, was that no mention was made of the building of a dental school in Cork. This is hard to understand when the Minister laid so much emphasis in his brief on higher education. It may be that the Minister has his own views and is not permitted at this stage to express them. However, I should like to put before the Minister some facts on this matter.

First, the decision of the Higher Education Authority not to have a dental school in Cork was made without proper assessment of the situation and without prior consultation with members of the dental association. With your permission, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I should like to quote from an address, published by the Irish Dental Association, and given by Dr. Stanley Thornton, LDSI, president of the Irish Dental Association, at a public meeting held at the Metropole Hotel, Cork, on Monday, 8th January, 1973:

I would like to emphasise at this point that at no time is it suggested that a Cork Dental School should be retained at the expense of the loss of a School in Dublin. No— our well-considered argument is that Ireland needs two Dental Schools— one in Dublin and one in Cork. One to accommodate, teach and provide facilities for the profession in the eastern and northern parts of Ireland and the Cork School to provide similar facilities for the population of Munster and the western counties of Ireland.

On many occasions I have heard the Minister say that he would consult with the various interests where higher education is concerned. I hope he will not entertain for one minute a submission made by the Higher Education Authority on this very important aspect of higher education without at least making a very thorough investigation into it. There was always a dental school in Cork, and a very efficient one too. If by chance the Minister's decision is against the erection of this dental school it will mean a falling off in that faculty.

I am not putting up a case for Cork against Dublin. The Minister also knows that there is a demand for two dental schools in this country. Our population is increasing every year, more so in the southern and western countries. I asked the Minister to make an immediate decision on this, keeping in mind the costs of building. A delay at this stage would be fatal and would increase considerably the original estimate for the school. I am sure the Minister is also aware that the university authorities in Cork acquired a ten-acre site where the new regional hospital is being built. Surely this must be a further incentive to the Minister to make his decision. I appeal to him to come to grips with the Higher Education Authority and finalise this all-important aspect of higher education.

Reformatory and industrial schools are best referred to as special schools. I should like to pay tribute to both the religious and the lay teachers for the tremendous work they are doing in these schools. Their dedication and understanding of the problems should be admired. Recently I visited a special school in Dublin and was most impressed by the activities there. I cannot help wondering if the teachers' work and efforts are of any avail. When the boys leave these schools they return to the same environment which was, in most cases, the cause of their trouble. When boys or girls leave a special school they have every intention of mending their ways but they need help, guidance and encouragement. We have failed in a follow-up service for these young people. I would ask the Minister to review the whole position because without this follow-up service, guidance, advice and encouragement after leaving the special school we know that the boy will sooner or later return merely to a more restrictive school. I have seen it. I have seen young boys and girls in a desperate way because their home life amounted to nothing. Young people must be guided. Teachers in school cannot be expected to give the amount of time required to such young people. Therefore I ask the Minister to review the whole position now.

This brings me to the provision of an additional £40,000 for the extension of aid to youth and sporting organisations. I was most disappointed, and I am sure many sporting organisations and youth groups throughout the country were disappointed, at this announcement. This amount of additional money is not sufficient for this essential service. The development of sport and youth activities is a very important aspect of education. There is too much lip service in regard to this matter and little or no practical help. Many people who devote their time and energies to the provision of these facilities are at their wits end in devising means of keeping the services going and in trying to improve the services. Whatever money is available to the Minister should be spent in this direction.

I was going to ask the Minister by way of Parliamentary Question to make an allocation of at least £20,000 to the National Council for Community Games. This is a council that organises sport for thousands of children all over the country to participate in every year. The Minister knows how important it is to instil in the minds of children a love of sport. This should start at a very young age. If we are not prepared to spend the money now in building up a love for this kind of recreation in young children it would be pointless to promote that kind of recreation for them at a later age.

The National Council for Community Games was founded only in recent years. They provided means, for the first time, for children to compete in sport. There was a certain amount of neglect in the past in regard to this matter. Clubs catered for children from nine years of age to 15 years. Their neglect to cater for younger children showed a forgetfulness of the future of their clubs.

I would ask the Minister to reconsider this matter and to give at least the amount I have mentioned, £20,000 a year, for the National Council for Community Games in order that they may cater for the thousands of children who desire to participate in the type of sport that they provide. I am not being critical of the Minister's effort. I am making the case because I have experience of the frustrations of all those who are promoting sport.

The Minister referred to youth leadership courses. I often wonder if we really understand the problem in this respect. Who is to organise youth leadership courses? I would ask the Minister to organise youth work courses for professional workers at university level. By doing so he would make available to youth clubs and to schools full-time youth workers who would be able to advise and direct those involved in youth activities. This should be a top priority in the Minister's policy. There should be university courses so that at a later stage the qualified personnel could organise and train people as youth leaders. It would be a great thing if in every city and county there were at least four full-time youth workers. The voluntary effort is there but it is not sufficient to meet the needs. Trained personnel must be available. We could talk here for the next year and it would be of no avail unless properly trained personnel were available for work in the field.

I would appeal very strongly to the Minister to consider the provision of full-time courses in universities. The persons taking these courses would then be available to the thousands of youth clubs in the country and would be able to direct and advise the many organisations, including schools, in this matter. School children must have some place of recreation to which they can go at 3 p.m. or 4 p.m. after school, a place where the branch of sport in which they are interested is properly organised. That is why I make this very special appeal to the Minister to give this matter every consideration.

Other Deputies referred to the employment of mentally handicapped persons. I would endorse everything that has been said. I deplore the lack of involvement of industrialists in this great work. They have an important part to play with the many voluntary organisations throughout the country who are involved in this work.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.