At the outset I wish to state that Fianna Fáil are anxious to haul this Government before the people as soon as possible so that they may have an opportunity of registering their grave dissatisfaction with the numerous broken promises we have had from the Coalition.
Adjournment Debate. - Local Authority Electoral Areas.
I fail to see the relevancy of these remarks to the subject matter of the questions that the Deputy sought permission to raise on the Adjournment.
I am speaking of the next electoral areas.
The Deputy must get back to the subject matter of the question which he asked my permission to raise.
I am coming to that. It is important in any election that the people should have fair representation. Obviously, the Minister was conscious of this fact because in the recent local government reorganisation discussion document issued by the Department, he referred, first, to local democracy and said that the National Coalition Government would consider it a priority at all times that power be vested in the people and that local government must be made truly democratic and relevant to their needs. Secondly, the Minister put much emphasis on the human touch in local representation and said he considered that a large and complicated system of local authority on the lines proposed by the previous Government would not be conducive to preserving the human touch, a human touch that should be characteristic of local government.
Since the Minister has refused to alter the number of county councillors representing Dublin county at the next local election, can he say if in his opinion the human touch can prevail in a situation where as many as 300,000 people are represented by only 25 county councillors? There are some figures that I wish to put before the House. The 1971 census showed that the population of County Dublin was 284,000. Because of population growth since then the present total is likely to be over the 300,000 mark. The area is represented by only 25 councillors. This area is the biggest electoral area in the country. Cork is the next biggest with a population of 224,000 and has a representation of 46 councillors. A number of other smaller authorities have more seats. Galway, with a population of 149,000 has 31 seats; Mayo, where the population is 110,000, has 31 seats also. Clare has a population of 75,000 and has 31 seats. Meath, with a population of 72,000 has 29 seats while Louth, with a population of 75,000, has 26 seats. The figure for Dublin—25 seats—is the same as for Cavan which has a population of 53,000. The figure for Laois is the same and the population there is 45,000. Is this justice?
Taking all county councils into consideration the national average is one seat per 3,200 of population but in Dublin there is only one seat for every 11,300 of population. It will be seen therefore that the figure for Dublin is much higher than for any other area in the country. The average in the Ballybrack electoral area is one seat to each 12,500 of population; the figure for Dundrum is one to 8,500, while for Lucan it is one to 10,900. As I have said, these figures are based on the 1971 census and do not take account of the massive growth in population that has taken place since then. In my own area of Swords the ratio is one to 9,700, while in Tallaght it is one to 11,500. We all know that since 1971 the population of Tallaght has exploded. My colleague on the county council, Deputy McMahon, speaks regularly of this massive growth in population in that area. Let us compare these figures with ratios of one seat per 1,000 or per 1,500 head of population in other areas. For example the Dromahair area has one seat to 1,020 while Muine Bheag has one seat to 1,480.
In the electoral area of Swords, for example, there was a population increase between the years 1966 and 1971 from 32,400 to 48,600, or 50 per cent. If this rate of population growth has been maintained the present figure is likely to be 60,000 and not 48,000 as was mentioned earlier. I am not advocating that representation should be reduced in other areas, but I envy those people. However, it is only right and proper that there should be local councillors to deal with such small populations as 1,000 or 1,500. This is local government as it should be. It is not right that in Dublin 12,000 people are represented by one county councillor. That situation does not represent democracy and neither does it represent local government as it should be.
Dublin County Council, being very much aware of the problem, requested the Minister to increase the representation. We got a reply on the 7th November last telling us that because of the long drawn out process and in view of the fact that it was the intention of the Minister to hold local elections in 1974, he could not see his way to increase the number of members of the county council. However, the Minister has been attempting to gerrymander the allocation of the existing membership. If the Minister should go ahead with the local elections on the basis of present figures in County Dublin, figures which in 1974 are atrocious and inequitable, what will be the position in five years time? At the present growth rate I can foresee a situation in which each 20,000 to 25,000 head of population will be represented by one councillor. This area of County Dublin is experiencing the fastest growth rate in the country and perhaps it has the greatest problems of any county council in the country. They are managing on behalf of this Government the really important progress which is taking place. They are administering the new towns envisaged with a population of 150,000 in Tallaght, Clondalkin and Blanchardstown. The ratepayers of County Dublin are carrying this burden on behalf of the country. This is unjust. Not only are they carrying the burden but they are being represented by 25 county councillors acting on their behalf.
The situation is even worse than the figures portray. While there are 25 county councillors in the Dublin County Council three of these councillors are sent from the Dún Laoghaire Corporation. This is so because of some old Act. Dún Laoghaire are entitled to send three representatives to the Dublin County Council. The population of County Dublin is represented by 22 county councillors in the Dublin County Council.
Having discussed this on a general basis, I would like now to bring it down to a discussion on the particular areas and to speak about my own electoral area which stretches from Santry to Balbriggan, taking in over two-thirds of the Ballymun housing scheme. It is an area situated in Dublin County but the Ballymun scheme was built by Dublin Corporation. There are mainly corporation problems here. It has been my privilege to represent these people since 1967. On some occasions they received a bad Press, but I have always found them to be the most honourable, decent people one could deal with. On all occasions it has been a pleasure to visit their area. The people there are hardworking, honest-to-God people.
The new area of Donaghmede is also situated in County Dublin and within the boundaries of this local electoral area. The Minister, by his own action in the recent attempt to gerrymander which has not yet been finalised, highlighted the anomaly. With one minor alteration the Minister has made the Swords local electoral area, represented by five county councillors, into a Dáil constituency which will send three Deputies to Dáil Éireann.
We are now dealing with the Electoral Act.
The Minister should set in motion the procedure for a public inquiry which apparently is necessary to increase the number of members on a local authority. He should set this procedure in motion so that an inquiry can be held and the proper representation given to the people of County Dublin. I do not see any reason why this cannot be done immediately and still continue with the local elections in June. Even if the local elections had to be postponed until September, although we do not want them postponed, justice should be done. The people of County Dublin are crying out for such justice. There is no justice in the present situation. The situation will be even worse by 1979 when the next local elections are due.
I would say to the Minister that he has made definite statements about not being prepared to do this. It is a big man who can change his mind on greater enlightenment. I ask him to give serious consideration to the figures I have given him and to put the inquiry procedure into operation so that the people of County Dublin can receive justice and the numerical representation to which they are entitled.
The Minister has been active in his own local authority area for many years. He is aware of the problems of the people in the area. I ask him to do to County Dublin what he would like to see done to County Meath, and that is to give them fair representation. They are paying for it in their rates and taxes. Give them what they are entitled to because without an increase in the numbers I cannot see how the bulk of the work which is coming before the members of the Dublin County Council can continue to be administered over the next five years. This work is reaching astronomical proportions. The paper-work is increasing all the time.
In other countries if a new town or city were built, in size comparable to Tallaght, a commission would be set up to be responsible for it. Instead of that, 22 county councillors are expected to deal with Tallaght, Clondalkin, Blanchardstown and the fringe areas. They have also to deal with the development of the scheduled towns of Swords, Malahide, Skerries, Balbriggan and Rush, and the expansion of the rural area of Lusk.
I am asking for justice for the people of County Dublin. The Minister should set up a public inquiry in order to increase the representation for these people.
Speaking as a member of Dublin County Council, I would ask the Minister to give serious consideration to the request made in regard to the number of councillors in the Dublin County Council. I appreciate fully that the time is very limited. I understand that legislation is necessary before a public inquiry is held and that such public inquiry must be set up before representation can be increased. I appreciate that time is limited. I am sure that the local elections could at least be postponed for five or six months to allow a public inquiry to be held.
I fully support the plea made by Deputy R.P. Burke. He said that Dublin County Council are supposed to have 25 county councillors but, in fact, they have only 22. Three members come from Dún Laoghaire Borough Corporation because of some old Act and because of services provided by Dún Laoghaire to Dublin County Council. As a result, Dún Laoghaire are entitled to send three councillors to Dublin County Council. This is difficult to explain or understand. The result is that Dublin County Council have only 22 members. There has been a great growth in population. I know the Minister is aware of that. The Dublin County Councillors give their services voluntarily to a certain degree. Each year every built-up area has a growth in the number of residents' associations and they expect time to be given to them by their local representatives. In the present situation it is not possible for a local representative to give time or service to these associations, due to his many commitments and the size of the local electoral areas. This is also due to the number of people residing in such areas.
The Deputy's time is almost exhausted.
The Minister should, if at all possible, set up the machinery for a public inquiry with a view to increasing the number of councillors on Dublin County Council.
One of the things which amuses and sometimes annoys me is when I hear sheer hypocrisy in this House or anywhere else. We have got it here this evening from Deputy "the Reverend" R.P. Burke. The sheer hard neck of somebody like Deputy Burke coming into this House and trotting out what he has said as if he and Dublin County Council had made a decision, had been looking for something and now were being deprived of it by me as Minister for Local Government and by the Government.
These are the facts, whether the Minister likes them or not.
The Deputy had a good hearing for almost 20 minutes. He will now concede the same to the Minister who has only ten minutes to reply.
For the information of the House, Dublin County Council considered my letter in which I informed them that it was not proposed to increase the overall numbers before the local elections and it was noted. Therefore, I take it it has been accepted by Dublin County Council. However, the knight in shining armour comes riding into the House this afternoon in an effort to get some publicity in the newspapers and starts shouting about what should and could be done for Dublin County Council and the residents in County Dublin.
May I remind the Deputy that the membership of Dublin County Council was fixed at 24 in 1930 and was reduced to 20 members in 1942 by Fianna Fáil? They increased the membership to 25 by an order in 1948. From 1948 to date the population of Dublin has been growing apace but it was never considered necessary to get further representation for them until I suggested recently that Dublin County Council and every other local authority in the country should try to redress the imbalance that occurred with regard to the number of people represented by public representatives in each area.
To make matters worse, in 1960 Dublin County Council considered this matter as did the then Minister for Local Government. He changed the areas a bit but he did not change the membership. However, there was no request from Deputy Burke's predecessor in Fianna Fáil for a change. Obviously there was none because it was not done. Now, after years and years in which the people of Dublin were, according to Deputy Burke, being badly represented——
Numerically.
——I will leave it at that—we now find Deputy Burke coming into the House and shouting——
It is not——
Order. I would ask the Deputy to be quiet.
The Deputy also referred to the fact that I was gerrymandering the county council areas. This is the sort of snide remark that is getting the Deputy the dressing-down he richly deserves. There is no question of gerrymandering. The Deputy is as well aware as I am that the change suggested by me in County Dublin in an effort to have an equal number of people represented by each councillor, was more likely to lose my own party a seat than any other party in Dublin County Council.
Let us give credit where credit is due. That is why I will not take insinuation from people like Deputy Burke that I am as crooked as they were when they had the chance. As far as I am concerned, what I am doing is honest and above board. I have notified the local authorities that I wanted them to change their local areas in an effort to redress the imbalance that existed. This is being done at the present time. I have got requests from numerous areas, including Meath County Council, asking me to change the numbers. It is interesting that before the last two local elections I had a resolution passed by Meath County Council and submitted to the Department of Local Government requesting an increased membership but the Fianna Fáil Minister for Local Government refused to do it. There was no such request from Dublin County Council.
Deputy Burke has a hard neck to come here and accuse me of being dishonest or unfair in dealing with Dublin County Council. If he had gone to the trouble of checking he would have found out the facts. I have said, and I propose to carry it out, that I will have a public inquiry at which each area can make its case for additional members and then in the election after this coming one they will, according to Deputy Burke, be properly represented. If Fianna Fáil were still here it would not be done; if they were still in office we would have the imbalance in the representation that has been carried on for so many years without a squeal from any of their supporters on the local councils. For a long time there was no city council in Dublin.
I may sound angry about this but I am angry. I do not mind anyone making a comment as long as it is fair but to find Deputy Burke coming here now, knowing that I have been in the House with a Bill since the morning and that I was here for one and a half hours during Question Time, with a stupid thing like this for the sole purpose of getting a few lines in the morning's papers, pretending he was the person defending Dublin County Council and people throughout the country——
A Cheann Comhairle——
I would ask the Deputy to resume his seat.
As far as I am concerned Deputy Burke has stepped over the line. He has no justification whatever for what he did. He came in and trotted out a trumped-up charge that could not hold water——
The figures prove it.
Of course the figures prove it. I am not denying the fact that in the Dublin County Council area there are 11,374 persons represented by each councillor; there are the most up-to-date figures we have. In Dublin city there are 12,617 people represented by one person. Deputy Burke should check on the facts. Those of us who are long enough in the House, no matter on what side, are too used to the wise guys who give selective statistics for the purpose of trying to get away with something. As far as I and the Department of Local Government are concerned it will not work. We are being fair with the local authorities. We have asked them to arrange their areas so that there would be proper representation, one against the other, within that area. We propose to do what is necessary for the purpose of having each area properly represented in future but we could not do it before the local elections. The Deputy's own party did not want the elections postponed——
We do not want to have them postponed.
Like the last general election, they may wonder after the local elections why they did not get them postponed so that they might save their bacon. They tried that before but they were caught, as they will be caught again. I will be fair with local authorities. I have given my decision to Dublin County Council and they have accepted it. That being so, I do not propose to change my mind. It has been said that it is a big man who changes his mind. If I changed for Dublin County Council, what argument would I have for refusing to change for other local authorities? Does Deputy Burke think Dublin is Ireland? It is not and the people in the country will get from me exactly the same consideration as people living in Dublin city and county.
As far as I am concerned the decision has been taken. Local elections will take place in June on revised areas within the county. In fact, although I did not have to do it, I asked the local authorities to give me their recommendations. I could have made my own decision but I asked the elected representatives to let me know how they thought the matter should be arranged. In some cases people decided to leave matters as they were even though the imbalance was completely wrong. I am prepared to accept what the local authorities recommend but I will not have someone coming into this House trying to put across the statement that I am deliberately trying to do something dishonest, knowing well that the Deputy's party, since 1948, allowed this situation to continue. He would be the last to make a complaint about it if his party were still in office.
The Dáil adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 12th February, 1974.