When I reported progress I was referring to the fact that during the debate on the EEC at the time we joined the European Economic Community there were certain aspects of EEC policy which we pointed to as being of the utmost importance to this country. I pointed out that at the level of the lowest common denominator we suggested we did not have any choice in regard to the matter in the sense that our markets were in joining the EEC and it seemed there might have been dire consequences for this country if we decided to opt out and stay alone on the fringes of Europe. We also pointed out, pragmatically, that there were two other items of major significance which it seemed to us should be of value to our country. These were the common agricultural policy, which has been implemented and which we have availed of to a very considerable extent in terms of finance during the past 12 months, and the regional policy.
We must, in general, be reasonably pleased with the situation where agriculture is concerned and especially when we see the extent to which the Exchequer has benefited from a common agricultural policy. The regional question and the inconclusiveness within the EEC in regard to formulating and finally deciding on regional policy, has led to quite a lot of cynicism in the country. I believe this will be resolved very shortly and it is probable that the fact that a British general election is taking place at this time is one of the principal reasons why a meeting has not taken place within the past two weeks in an attempt to conclude that particular issue.
I would like to re-echo to an extent one or two remarks made by Deputy Herbert who spoke just before me. I read at a distance certain remarks which he made a few months ago in the European Parliament in regard to a regional policy and the reasons why, if Europe had a true regional philosophy, Ireland must benfit from such a policy. I compliment him for those remarks, although there are other items to which he referred on which I will join issue with him shortly. I agree with Deputy Herbert to the extent that there is an issue looming, apart altogether from the international question and the national issue of Ireland's benefiting from a regional fund and our argument to Europe that we are one of the lesser developed countries, and as the least developed country within the EEC we would suggest that proportionately we must get a very large slice of that fund, a sentiment which we re-echo completely.
There is a problem in so far as regional development is concerned because within the country there are great imbalances of development between east and west. I believe it will be necessary when a decision has been reached in Europe about Ireland's position, when we know to an extent the amount of funds we will get in a given year, and when we see the criteria which will be available, to look within this country and to see how we will spend that fund within Ireland. In that context I want to revert briefly to the agricultural picture because there is a major problem in the EEC agricultural policy where the west of Ireland is concerned. We know that as a nation we have benefited to the tune of £40 million or £50 million. We know that is a good thing. At the same time when we see the areas of the country to which the massive injection of funds from Europe has gone we see that to a very great extent the regions which have benefited have been the east, parts of the south and the south-east. We see a major problem in agricultural policies where the western counties are concerned. When we look at counties like Mayo we see that the average size of a holding is in the region of 20 acres, a situation which is not very different from that which applies in many parts of Galway, all of Leitrim, Roscommon, Sligo, Donegal and other western counties.
In these areas they are finding that there will be area of EEC support policy in the form of grants for agricultural production and for farmers who will come under the umbrella of the development schemes in agriculture but they are finding also that due to the farm structure in the west and the small size of the farms compared with any national statistic within this country, or international comparison within the EEC, many of these farmers on these very small holdings will not be in a position to get State aid to support their development.
We should try to see if something can be done about this matter. It pertains to the regional fund directly in the sense that Europe takes cognisance of this fact and the lesser level of development in certain areas by arranging special policies of aid for the areas they believe to be the most depressed and the most underdeveloped in the community. It is in this context that the west would hope to gain from the regional policy and from spending the regional fund within the country. In the referendum this was one of the major selling points in that part of the country just as, internationally, we have argued that if there is an undue dilution of the regional fund through areas we would not call depressed by a European definition in comparison with certain regions of Germany, France, Belgium and Holland, and where we argue that that is not a true regional philosophy, it would seem that we should apply this same yardstick when we seek to spend the fund in this country. There will never be any redress of the boundaries within this country or of the levels of development between east and west if that fund is to be diluted through the Twenty-six Counties. No attempt can be made to redress that imbalance unless in the expenditure of the regional EEC fund very special consideration is given to western priorities.
I hope in this regard that we will have the sympathy of legislators from other parts of the country because of the very severe problems we have in the western regions. The criteria which were mentioned a few months ago in regard to the regional policy are not altogether satisfactory. I am not certain of the present state of that particular ball game because it seems to have been going back and forth for months. Certainly a situation where a member state was limited to using a maximum of 50 per cent of the total investment of the project from the regional source for industry would not be satisfactory in a country as little developed as we are. Sometimes we do not have the resources to the extent we would require them within the State to fund the type of operations that are necessary. Traditionally, in the infrastructural area a limiting of a member state to 30 per cent of the regional fund relative to the national input would not, in my view, be satisfactory. I believe that so far as our country is concerned there should be a fairly unlimited opportunity to use that fund proportionate to the extent that we believe it to be necessary.
I want to take Deputy Herbert to task on one or two remarks of his. He spoke of the present Government's position and tended to criticise them for what he believed was not satisfactory regional policy and for dilatoriness, if you like, in suggesting to Europe the areas in which we want to see developments. I think I am quoting him when I say that he said that the Fianna Fáil policy was well balanced for the past 16 years and had been meeting with great success between the east coast and the rest of the country. He spoke about Fianna Fáil's pursuit of a regional policy for the past 16 years to correct the imbalance. I am not attempting to speak in a contentious way but, obviously, if I follow somebody who has spoken in this vein and if I disagree with his sentiments, I may be forgiven if I take him to task in that area.
It is possible that, living in the Limerick region, when he looks at the level of development that has taken place in the greater Limerick-Shannon region one could suggest that there has been striking success in redressing the development between east and west. That, in fairness would be true if the discussion related to the mid-west region but one of the big mistakes of the previous Government was that while they developed a successful venture in the mid-west region in the SFADCO organisation which was an autonomous company with decision-making within the region, liberally financed from the Exchequer in a region where the grant per head of the population in terms of IDA statistics was many times greater than the rest of the entire western seaboard from north Clare to Donegal, this posed certain questions for regional development in the rest of the country and it was sad that the lesson was not learned and that, to an extent, similar models were not developed in western areas. Instead, we saw a proliferation of regional branch offices of national organisations but no regional policy, no decentralisation and no effective decision making in any region other than the Shannon region.
If I talk of the past 15 years in relation to Mayo it is a county that lost about 15,000 people in that time. You can, in relative terms, say the same about the population of Leitrim, Roscommon, parts of Sligo and Donegal and other midland counties. To talk of meeting this problem as between east and west is nonsense if we refer to the past 15 years: it is valid if it refers to the mid-west region. I do not have to cite any biased statistics to prove this. The statistics are available in our population figures and if anybody wants to read last year's OECD report on Ireland he would find that despite what we tend to learn from the media of our own country, about developments in western areas, the OECD report stated that in its opinion, rather than getting closer together in levels of development, the gap at this time is widening between east and west and that the massive development in Dublin city is simply walking away from the rest of the country. There is an objective, responsible, international organisation discussing this particular problem and in context it tends to make Deputy Herbert's remarks untenable.
Deputy Herbert also spoke of the regional development organisations and their plans and asked if they had been consulted and if there was coordination. I am aware that the RDO in my region, Mayo-Galway, has prepared plans or is in the course of doing so. I also know that many local authorities and national bodies have prepared plans seeking funds from the regional fund and that at present these plans are being examined within the Department of Finance. So far as Government policy is concerned in regard to this fundamental issue of regional development I should like to point out that Deputy Ryan, speaking as Minister for the Public Service in Cork about two weeks ago stated that one of the principal aims being pursued vigorously at this time by the Department of the Public Service is this question of regional development and the anomaly of this multiplicity of extensions of central organisations throughout the country. He said that the Department were seeking ways to reduce this type of thing so as to evolve structures within regions which were satisfactory for the regions' development. In addition. I know that priority is being given to a study of the western position at this time when we speak of regional development.
It would be my hope that if the structure, as a result of these studies, was to develop in western areas it would take the form of some type of development board and that the development of such a structure would point within Europe to the particular area within Europe which has the greatest need of development. I would hope development of such a structure would act as a sort of catalyst in Europe to make people within the EEC aware of the fact that within our country there is this part of the country which requires very special aid. Statistics were produced some time ago of what were termed the peripheral regions of the EEC which tended to compare by various denominators the situation that exists in the Mezzogiorno, with the west of Ireland, with Schleswig-Holstein in Germany, with parts of Brittany and France and with Jutland, off Denmark, and such regions. One frightening result of this at a conference at which all of these so called peripheral regions were lobbying for support and for special EEC considerations was that of all the regions which took part in that conference, even including the Mezzogiorno in Southern Italy—about the poverty of which we read so much— the statistics of the west of Ireland were the worst and most depressing. There was a situation in which people from Schleswig-Holstein were complaining that their major problem was that they had too many people still working on the land. The percentage of people living on the land there is about 11 or 12 and when we equated this with the west of Ireland situation where our statistics show today that we still have between 40 per cent or 50 per cent of our people engaged in this primary employment on these small farms, we can begin to see the extent of that problem.
In that context we would like to see a strong regional fund developing from Europe and consideration being given within this country to ensuring that the fund is proportionately spent where the need is greatest in this country just as we would say within Europe where it should largely be spent.
We have certain problems regarding involvement in the EEC. Intense interest was taken in the debate here before our entry. At that time we were all stimulated by what we believed would be the fruits of entry. There was debate in which the leading figures in the country took part and many people throughout the country knew a great deal about the European situation. I do not know that the position is as happy in that sense today. It seems there is a great deal of ignorance in the country as to what Europe is about and what its institutions are about. The attitude of some people seems to be that they stopped at that time; we joined the EEC and Europe will sort out the problems from here on. In my view which must be the view of all Deputies it is an ongoing business and as such while the Dáil and the Legislature are important within the country, equally if we are to be involved in Europe the European Parliament and the institutions in Brussels and Strasbourg are possibly not equally important but are nearly equally important to us. It is all the more serious today when so much of our sources of finance are in Europe and so many of the regulations, down to the most mundane nuts and bolts activity within the country, is decided in Brussels.
It is very important that the people throughout the country are au fait with what is happening. In that regard I would welcome much more direct contact from the provinces with Europe. It is necessary that our senior civil servants, Government Ministers should go to Brussels and the members of the European Parliament should attend its meetings. These should be backed up with fairly frequent visits from community leaders, members of local authorities from the provinces as well as people from Dublin, so that there will not be a slanted debate in which the “elitist” people—for want of a better word— have all the information available.
I would welcome also the funding of modest trips for the right type of people from different parts of the country so that they, too, begin to live in the European context. My first visit to Brussels was an experience in that it seemed to be an entirely different institution to that which I had been reading about. To visit these places is enlightening, stimulating and, I think, necessary. I do not seek to be contentious but I would hope that reason would prevail so far as pairing arrangements are concerned. Individual Deputies should have the opportunity to go to Europe as frequently as they think necessary for their own enlightenment, for the benefit of their constituencies or for what they think their contribution might be in the area of national policy.
The European Report is a biweekly journal. It gives an excellent synopsis of the activities within the EEC. It is taken by many Departments of State. Yet we find it is not in the Oireachtas Library, probably due to the constraints of funds. If we are to have the primacy of politics here, if our legislators are to be concerned with the running of the country and if their opinions are to be weighed and valued, support, back-up services and knowledge are available.
I was very glad to see that the European Investment Bank has lent a considerable sum of money to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for telecommunications development. This is a top priority matter. One of the things which has stunned me since I became a Deputy is this. I thought that the telephone problem in Mayo was serious. It has been a revelation to realise that it is even worse in Dublin city. Obviously this money is extremely necessary.
Deputy Herbert took the Minister for Foreign Affairs to task. He claimed that the IDA should be advertising the fact that 50 per cent grants are available in the industrial arena from the Regional Fund. He suggested that the Minister was concealing this information. I respectfully submit that this is totally unacceptable. The Regional Fund has not yet been set up. When it is, the message with regard to the availability of funds will be loud and clear. Before there is a decision in Europe as to whether there will be a fund, apart from the extent to which we will benefit from it, it would seem to me to be foolhardy in the extreme to advertise anything specific in relation to that fund.
The recent energy crisis has rent the Community. Mr. Simonet, Vice-President of the Energy Commission, made a speech to the European Parliament on the energy crisis. He said:
Action must be taken to ensure the full development of any energy source, which in economically and socially acceptable conditions could replace the utilisation of petroleum.
We should give some consideration to the development of the turf industry. Machinery has developed to a greater extent that previously. Technology is better than it has been. Machines are available which can be used to develop bogs which would previously have been very difficult to develop. Some time ago the priorities were to develop certain bogs because of their ease of access and flat land. There are many other marginal areas which could be developed at minimal cost to the nation at the present time. In these areas machines are not very expensive. Turf is a native resource. Its use will be of direct benefit to the country in that it will mean a lesser usage of petroleum products.
If horticulture is to develop, it will be necessary to skim the top off these bogs. Within the European context this is a matter which should be considered with particular urgency. I am not certain if EEC grants are available for such work. Simple as this product is, it is worth pursuing in the national interest.
I want to compliment the Minister on the work he has done in his Department, particularly in relation to the EEC. My view, and the view of a great many unprejudiced people in the country, is that he is doing a very good job. It has been suggested from political sources that he has been less than diligent in the area of the regional policy. The record shows that he has been very interested in getting for this country the highest possible level of support from the EEC and he has stressed at all times the falseness in some of the arguments which were propounded. I hope he continues to do this until the fund emerges. I wish him success.