I understand that Nos. 6 and 7 on the Order Paper will be discussed together but voted upon, if necessary, separately.
Local Elections (Postal Voting) Regulations, 1974: Motion.
I move:
That Dáil Éireann approves of the following regulations in draft:
Local Elections (Postal Voting) Regulations, 1974
a copy of which regulations in draft form was laid before Dáil Éireann on the 24th day of April, 1974.
The Local Elections (Postal Voting) Regulations, 1974, and the Local Elections (Amendment) Regulations, 1974, are closely related. Therefore, I am glad the House has agreed to discuss both sets of regulations together.
The draft regulations are laid before the House in accordance with section 82 (5) of the Electoral Act, 1963, which provides that, where regulations under that section are proposed to be made, a draft thereof shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and that the regulations shall not be made until a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by each House.
I propose to deal first with the postal voting regulations. There has been a demand for the provision of extended postal voting facilities for many years. Representations seeking such facilities have been submitted from time to time in respect of such groups as commercial travellers, sailors, fishermen, invalids, persons who are abroad on business at election time, airline staffs, hospital patients, persons who have changed their address, persons who are away on holidays at the time an election is held, and old people and others who are unable to leave their homes because of illness or disability.
In response to these representations, the extension of postal voting facilities, which are at present confined to members of the Garda Síochána and of the Defence Forces, was considered on a number of occasions by my predecessors as Minister for Local Government and by former Governments. It was also considered in 1960-61 by the Joint Committee on the Electoral Law. However, on each occasion, the view was taken that the risk of abuse would be too great and that there would be administrative difficulties arising from the large numbers of electors likely to be involved.
A risk of abuse and administrative difficulties are inherent in the operation of a system of postal voting for categories of electors other than members of the Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces. However, these must be balanced against the fact that the lack of such a system has the effect of preventing some electors from exercising their right to vote. In my view, the case for extending postal voting facilities is strong enough to outweigh the risk of abuse and the administrative difficulties. Accordingly, I propose to make regulations, subject to the approval of each House of the Oireachtas, under which such facilities would be available at local elections, commencing with the local elections next June.
The explanatory memorandum which has been circulated explains the provisions of the proposed regulations. Basically, what is proposed is that a right to apply to vote by post at local elections should be granted to every elector who is unable, or is likely to be unable, to vote in person at his polling station by reason of the circumstances of his occupation, service or employment, absence from the address where he is registered, illness or physical disability or his employment by a returning officer in connection with an election. The application procedure has been designed to facilitate electors as far as possible while, at the same time, maintaining safeguards against abuse. Some Deputies may well take the view that the procedure is not strict enough to eliminate all possible forms of abuse.
The problem is, however, that if further stringent checks were provided for, the whole system might become so complicated and so troublesome that it would deter people from availing of the new facilities. I trust that the system provided for in the regulations will work well. The operation of the system in relation to the forthcoming local elections will be kept under review with a view to establishing whether any changes may be necessary or desirable at future elections. I will welcome the views of Deputies and Senators on the operation of the system at the elections in June and any suggestions they may have for improvements at future elections will be carefully considered. After the local elections, I propose to introduce legislation to provide postal voting facilities at Dáil and Presidential elections and at referenda.
The approval of the House is also sought to the draft of the Local Elections (Amendment) Regulations, 1974. An explanatory memorandum on these draft regulations has also been circulated and I do not, therefore, think it necessary to detain the House by elaborating on the details. The draft regulations propose to amend the Local Elections Regulations, 1965, by making the changes required as a result of the reduction of the minimum voting age from 21 to 18 years; by increasing the safeguards to the secrecy of the ballot at local elections arising from the Supreme Court ruling in 1971 and by making some minor technical and procedural changes arising from experience at the local elections held in 1967.
The Fianna Fáil Party welcome the extension of the postal vote. At our recent Ard-Fheis a motion to this effect was passed unanimously and as I am aware that the Minister was an avid listener on the radio to the happenings at the Ard-Fheis, I am glad to see he has been influenced in his decision by the wishes of the delegates present at that conference. There is no conflict between both sides of the House as to the principle of extending postal voting. I note the Minister's cautious words in relation to the posibility of abuse. Both sides of the House, I am sure, hope there will not be any abuse of this facility.
The extension of the postal voting is being done to meet the needs and the circumstances of a fairly substantial proportion of our citizens. We hope there will not be those in the community who will seek to avail of this new facility to introduce abuses into elections. The Minister is right, and I expressed this view at the Ard-Fheis, that it is not beyond our capacity to devise a system which would extend the postal vote and at the same time minimise the possibility of abuse. The number of persons invalided and those away from their homes, due to work or other circumstances, who have not been able to cast their votes, has, from reports, been quite large. The Irish Wheelchair Association have been among one of the leading associations campaigning for an extension of the postal vote. They will be pleased this is being done. The Irish Commercial Travellers Association have been for some time advocating the extension of the postal vote. Many other groups of people, who have only been able to vote from time to time because of temporary illness, who find themselves in hospital or other places, will also be pleased that this is being done.
It is surprising that a joint committee on electoral law, comprised of Members of this House, which sat in the period 1960-61, took the view against further extension of postal voting. The House has achieved a certain amount of maturity now in changing that view of elected representatives and in agreeing to this extension. All sides of the House were represented on the Joint Committee on Electoral Law and supported the view at that time that it should not be extended. As the Minister said, the view was taken by them that the risk of abuse would be too great and that there would be administrative difficulties. Whatever administrative difficulties they foresaw the ease with which our neighbours in the Six County area extended the postal vote to all the citizens residing there dispelled this great myth of the massive administrative difficulties. It seemed to operate there quite successfully on a very extensive scale and I am not aware of any great outcry afterwards of serious abuse. I am sure we will be able to avail of this facility, operate it in a mature way and be satisfied after this election that it was a wise thing to extend postal voting to the people.
While we are on the matter of postal voting and elections generally, I should like to express some surprise that the Minister did not avail of the opportunity to provide free postage for the political parties contesting the local elections. I do not know if this is something he considered but I think it is something in Opposition that he would have subscribed to. A large number of people would subscribe to the idea that free postage should be available to those standing for election to the various authorities. I am throwing this out here to see what the Minister's reaction to it would be. He has indicated by shaking his head in a particular manner that he does not agree so I take it the answer is negative.
I think what is contained in section 12 (3) of the regulations is that a person who presents himself at a polling station and is informed by the presiding officer that his vote has already been cast by way of postal vote, and who claims before the presiding officer that he is, in fact, the person who appears on the voting register, that he did not vote by post and is prepared to take an oath or affirm under Article 46, that person is then entitled to receive a ballot paper from the presiding officer. Is that so? And, if such a person, having taken an oath or made an affirmation, receives a ballot paper from the presiding officer will that vote have equal value with all the other votes cast? I have it in the back of my mind that such persons are issued with a special ballot paper, a pink paper.
That was done away with in the 1963 Act.
I just wanted to clear the air on that. There could, of course, be a certain duplication in such circumstances. There is just one other point on which I should like some clarification. It is sometimes difficult to work out the chronological order of events. At least 28 days before polling day the returning officer must publish a notice of those persons who are qualified persons. He must also publish an indication of the time limit during which such applications must be received and give the times at which forms will be available. I understand application forms must also be available 28 days before polling day. In other words, the forms will be available on the day the notice is published. The application must be received by the presiding officer by 12 a.m. on the seventh day after publication of the notice. It is not clear what procedure the returning officer will follow in relation to the posting out to the applicant of the actual ballot paper and how many days there will be for the applicant to fill in the ballot paper and when the ballot paper will have to be returned. I presume the date will coincide with that fixed for the Army and the Garda. Will the Minister tell us, because this would seem to indicate that each returning officer will do this himself. I am sure there will be a direction from the Department.
We welcome the proposal to extend postal voting and, like the Minister's side of the House, we will keep a careful eye on its operation during the course of the local elections. I am glad the Minister is prepared to keep this under review. If any abuses arise or any anomalies appear I presume the Minister will not delay in eradicating or correcting these.
Most of the other regulations the Minister is asking us to accept are consequential on the reduction of the voting age and the change following the Supreme Court decision. I introduced legislation into the House on this. I accept this has to be done.
It is stated that where a poll is taken on an island in advance of the ordinary polling day the presiding officer may close the polling station after four hours, if that is necessary, in order to ensure the ballot papers reach the mainland in time. Under Article 12 of the draft regulations——
That is it—at present provision is made for everything except the ordinary polling day.
That is the only difference?
Yes.
I am sure the Minister will agree with me that in this technological age there should be no need for a regulation like this. Helicopters are not inhibited by sea or high winds. The difficulty that existed in the past in relation to the delivery of ballot boxes from islands no longer exists and the regulation is, therefore, antiquated. I would ask the Minister to drop this provision. It gives an extraordinary power to a presiding officer. He could deprive people of the opportunity of voting. Indeed, I am sure the constitutionality of this could be tested if a person were deprived of his right to exercise the franchise. It seems to me there is discrimination here. I have been on islands on numerous occasions on polling days and I have never known of any justification for such a provision. It is excessive and, while we have the opportunity now, we should delete it. If the Minister does that he will have our full support for everything else in the regulations.
I welcome this extension of the postal vote. It is long overdue. Some concern has been expressed about possible irregularities. Such a possibility should not inhibit us from progressing. I certainly cannot visualise any great possibility of irregularity. The sick and invalided will now have an opportunity of casting their votes. We have known of people in the past being brought to polling stations under great stress and strain. This will be eliminated in future.
I think Sunday would be an excellent day on which to hold elections. If Sunday is not thought desirable, surely we could have a national holiday. We do not have elections all that often. The idea is to ensure that as many people as possible vote. This could be achieved by holding elections on Sunday. That is done in other countries.
This Bill is one more measure highlighting the Minister's progressive approach. Deputy Molloy referred to a resolution passed at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis. Fianna Fáil had ample time to do what is being done now but they were slow to do it. Although the Minister has been in office for only 15 months he has taken the first opportunity to do something about this matter. I am glad he is leaving it open for further consideration after the local elections to see whether he will amend or extend the regulations. There may be some anomalies we cannot see at the moment but which will show themselves in the period of six or eight weeks when the local elections are over and we will have an opportunity then of carrying out any necessary amendments.
I welcome this measure. It will lead to greater involvement in the democratic election process. When we have general elections in the future I hope they take place on a day when everybody is free.
With our spokesman on Local Government, I should like to welcome the extension of the postal voting regulations. On the Committee Stage of the Electoral (Amendment) Bill some time ago, I made a plea to the Minister to extend these facilities and he assured me he had the matter under active consideration. I welcome the range of extensions the Minister has included in the new regulations. In particular, I am glad that commercial travellers, sailors, fishermen and invalids have been included. We all know of cases where people in hospitals, who had not been outside for many months previously, were taken out to cast their votes but this will no longer happen. I am glad the Minister has bowed to the inevitable and has introduced this measure.
There is one question I should like to ask the Minister and that is in regard to where a postal vote request is denied. Who is to determine whether such a request is to be granted or refused? Is there a time limit within which this can be decided? I understand the voter must apply to the returning officer for a postal vote within seven days. If the returning officer refuses the application and says that the applicant could get to the polls on the election day, for the information of Members of this House and the public, will the Minister clarify the question of denial of such a request? I am in favour of what the Minister has done in the regulations and I am extremely glad he has taken this action. He made a wise decision when he said he will see how it operates on this occasion and after the local elections will bring in an amendment for the Dáil and Presidential elections.
I am disappointed regarding the question of extension of free postage for election literature at local elections. This facility is available in general elections and I had hoped the Minister would allow it for local elections. Perhaps he would reconsider the matter and if he has not made a firm decision perhaps he would introduce this measure before the local elections. For many years we have been anxious that ordinary citizens, irrespective of political affiliations, would become involved in local affairs and problems. An Independent candidate who has not the backing of a political organisation finds it impossible to canvass every voter. His only real opportunity to do this is by postal communication but the free postage is not available at local elections. The Minister should extend this concession to local elections so that any citizen who wants to may be able to stand at local elections and communicate with every voter on the register. Without a political organisation and structure it is physically impossible for a candidate to do this. An Independent candidate may be able to canvass 20 per cent or 25 per cent of the electorate but he cannot get in touch with many more. If the facility of free postage is available at general elections, equally it should be available at local elections. In the last decade local politics have taken on a new importance. People have become much more conscious of community affairs and problems. This is desirable and it should be encouraged and fostered. A major encouragement would be the extension of free postage.
I have a certain interest in this because I shall be standing in the local elections and I should like to have the free postage concession in my own area but I am speaking against myself when I say it should be extended to Independent candidates. From my point of view it would be better if they were not able to canvass people in the area but from a democratic point of view it would be better for them to be able to do so. It would be an encouragement to any citizen who wishes to put his name forward and I would ask the Minister to reconsider this matter. It is the democratic right of every citizen to communicate freely his views to the electorate during an election campaign. I am sure that on reconsidering the matter the Minister will agree with the views expressed by Deputy Molloy and myself.
Later I shall speak about the council staffs. I would ask the Minister if our embassy staff abroad will be able to vote in local elections under these regulations and, when the new regulations are introduced, if they will be able to vote in general elections. I am glad that the regulations include the airline staffs and the crews on our shipping fleet. Perhaps the Minister would clarify the few points I have raised and make some comment on the extension of free postage.
I should like to congratulate the Minister on extending the postal voting regulations. Under the present postal voting regulations the Army and the Garda were entitled to vote but our seafaring personnel and our airline staff were discriminated against and were not included. I cannot understand why these regulations were not extended long ago.
There are a few points on which I should like clarification. Deputy Burke mentioned people who are ill or aged or invalided and people in institutions. All parties are guilty at election times of going into institutions and hospitals and putting the medical staff in the difficult position of having to say who they would recommend as being in a fit condition to travel to the polling booths and cast their votes. I am glad this is being done away with and that such people will be entitled to vote without leaving the institution, or without leaving their beds in many cases.
The postal vote can be extended only to people who are on the register of electors. Who will be responsible for making application for a postal vote for people in institutions? Will election candidates and election workers be campaigning and visiting hospitals and making applications for the postal vote? Do they have to make application or what is the position? A number of people who are invalided or in institutions, and who are unfit mentally or physically to take an interest in an election, will have no interest in applying for a postal vote.
At some polling booths there were stone stairs which old people found it very difficult to climb and this prevented them from going to the polling booths. I am glad that is being done away with. I am concerned that people in institutions should be able to avail of this facility which is being provided by the Minister. Who will be responsible for seeing to it that they have a ballot paper?
Like Deputy Molloy and other Deputies, I welcome the proposal to expand postal voting. A great injustice is being removed from people who spend many years in hospital. In my own area we had a polling station in one hospital, but it was only the mobile patients who could vote. While the election atmosphere permeated the hospital wards I always felt that a grave injustice was done to people who were not mobile but who were quite capable of voting if they could be brought to the polling station. This proposal will remove that injustice and they will now be able to vote.
I fear that this facility may be abused. We must strive to make the regulations as watertight as possible so that this innovation will not be abused. To the extent that it could be abused we might well have second thoughts about it. It is a fundamental right of a person to be able to vote despite the state of his health but we must seek to ensure that there will be no abuse of this new facility.
I support the plea for free postal voting in the municipal and local elections. We should not be so niggardly as to refuse postal facilities for local elections. We should show the people that we value the status of the local authorities. We should ensure that the best people are returned and that no man will be deprived of the opportunity to seek public office because he is not wealthy.
Some weeks ago the Dublin City Commission unanimously agreed to ask the Minister to review the city areas. The Minister has nine five-seat areas, whereas the commission felt that there should be ten fours and one five. We have not had a meeting since. I think the Minister is saying no.
It would not be possible. The elections are on 18th June.
If it cannot be done, it cannot be done. We will leave it to some future date. I support the idea of giving postal votes to airline personnel, commercial travellers and especially patients who are immobilised in institutions and cannot cast their votes. This may have a good psychological effect on them and even improve their health by showing them that they are part of our society and that they are taking an active part in it by casting their votes in elections.
I support the Minister's proposals. It is pleasant, for a change, to see such unanimity in this House relating to such a matter. It is necessary to introduce certain amendments because of the reduction in the voting age from 21 to 18 years. I support that completely because of the earlier maturity of our people and because of the higher educational standards. It is entirely democratic that this should be the case.
If we look to the complexion of the forthcoming local elections in June, in the sense that local elections have not taken place for seven years and, in addition to the lapse of seven years, the voting age has come down from 21 to 18 years, it is interesting to see that a full decade of people will be voting for the first time in the local authority elections this year, that is, those people in the age group from 18 to 21 years.
There is a point relating to 18-yearolds and the desirability of the postal vote which I do not think has been mentioned specifically. Many students who are 18 years plus would not be in a position to vote in certain elections and it is particularly desirable that they should have the postal vote. The Minister referred to the desirability for greater secrecy of the ballot. I should like to refer to this point very briefly. It seems to me that there is a lack of secrecy, to a degree, in many of the very small booths in the sense that through the tallying system at the various counts when you are tallying what seems to be the trend in booths where they are as few as 20, 30, 40, 50 or 60 votes, if there are slight shifts in political opinion or allegiance to particular candidates this is much too obvious under the present system. This is something that should be considered with a view to reducing what I think is a certain lack of secrecy in that regard in very small booths.
The Minister is wise in introducing his regulations and amendments in connection with local elections rather than general elections, because local elections, while important, are not as important as general elections. This can be used as a trial run and it will be possible in the light of experience in the forthcoming elections to provide for possible amendments if these are considered necessary. I do not entirely understand the necessity for the change in regard to the islands. It is stated that in the case of a poll taken on an island in advance of the ordinary polling day, the presiding officer may close the poll after four hours' voting if this is necessary to ensure that the ballot boxes will reach the mainland in time. I think, if the island poll is taking place before the normal polling day there should be no problem in allowing for the voting to continue for the normal time but if the Minister considers the present regulation necessary it would be very important to advise islanders, by publicity from his Department, of the change in the position so that they do not lose their franchise in this or later elections because of this regulation. In fairness, they should have adequate notice of the change.
I am particularly glad postal voting is being introduced. It was unfair to the categories mentioned by the Minister and other speakers that for many years they did not have the option to vote—commercial travellers, airline workers, and those working abroad— and the change was overdue. There is considerable merit in Deputy O'Brien's suggestion about having Sunday as a voting day because this would reduce the necessity for and the numbers involved in postal voting to a large degree. This is done in many countries and would, I think, be acceptable to quite a number in this country.
I do not think there has been specific mention of one section of our people in parts of the country where I live where due to the economic situation a large proportion of people from the west are working in Britain for long spells each year. In a great many cases unless they have been abroad for a number of years their names are on the register. In areas of high emigration our experience of the actual poll on election day is that it has been substantially less than in areas where those on the register are actually living within the constituency. The reason is that a great many of them are legitimately on the register but are migratory workers in Scotland, Wales or England. I am particularly glad, more than in the case of any other section of the population, that these people will have the opportunity to vote in elections. Although living outside the country they are citizens and in forthcoming elections this will be a significant factor. Were one to analyse the number affected by the Minister's regulation and the new postal voting, it would seem that those people temporarily domiciled in Britain will probably constitute the largest proportion of those voting by post. This is healthy in a democratic sense because they are away from the political divisions—
They cannot vote under these regulations.
But their names, in many cases, are on the register.
That does not matter.
They still cannot vote because no ballot papers can be sent out of the country.
But their addresses within the State are on the register.
They must apply from an address within the State. The provision is shown on the back of the Schedule in the middle of page 8.
The Minister referred to people outside the country on business.
The Minister did not deserve all the praise the Deputy was heaping on him.
I take the Deputy's point.
I take it Deputy Molloy wants to give postal votes to all our emigrants in Britain?
Yes.
Yes, if they are on the register.
Obviously, if people have been abroad for a number of years and are not on the register you have a different situation. It would seem to me that people who are on the register and spend a portion of the year in this country should be considered to be validly within the relevant category when we have such a high proportion in constituencies such as mine who are temporarily out of the country. I think they are in the same category as others and morally they should be involved in political decisions in this country.
We support that.
I regret that I misinterpreted the Minister's speech but I should like to hear his reply to this debate in regard to the points I made —not in relation to emigrants living abroad for a number of years but to those temporary migrants whose names are continually on the registers. If what I suggest is not provided for in the present legislation I should like to know if the Minister would give it serious consideration when further amendments are being considered in the light of the experience we shall gain in the local elections in this regard.
Finally, I again support the Minister's proposals although they are not as radical as I had thought them to be. I hope we shall see something more of this kind in the future.
I want to get down to nitty-gritty matters. The last speaker mentioned one of them. Is the Minister correct when he says migratory workers or workers who are on the register here and who are temporarily abroad are not entitled to vote? The Minister's statement gives one of the categories mentioned by the Minister which will have the facility of postal voting as persons who are abroad on business at election time. I fully back Deputy Staunton's case for migratory workers. They are temporarily abroad at election time and, therefore, are as much entitled to a postal vote as a businessman who is temporarily abroad at election time. It is a serious statement by the Minister when he says that migratory workers from the west who are temporarily abroad at election time, for a month or a week, cannot vote. They may have left the day before the election. A businessman may be abroad for three months. For part of that time, perhaps one week, he will be on business and the remainder he will be on a yachting trip around the world. He will have the luxury of voting in the local elections.
Will the Donegal or Mayo migratory worker who may leave the day or week before the election to do seasonal work in Britain, and is genuinely abroad on business at election time, have a postal vote? Will the Minister allow this particular phraseology to cover the migratory worker as well as the businessman? As far as I am concerned there is no difference between the migratory labourer who goes to Britain and the businessman who goes on a sales promotion tour behind the Iron Curtain or elsewhere.
Fishermen will have the facility of the postal vote. Many trawlers are more than 100 feet and, therefore, travel outside Irish territorial waters. Fishermen on these trawlers will have postal votes. If they are hundreds of miles away and a storm breaks they often put into the nearest port. Therefore, they may be in England, Scotland or Wales on election day. Having made provision for this, they will and can get the facility of a postal vote. I am sure the Minister will clarify the incongruity which exists in this statement and the actual working of the postal vote so far as business people abroad are concerned.
From the time he receives it until it is dropped into the letterbox, if that is the procedure to be used, is there anyone to whom he must present his credentials, or to whom he must refer, who will witness that he has voted and who will be in a position to certify this? If this does not happen, I can see wholesale abuses of the system. When making an application for a declaration form for the postal vote, must a person apply in person? Can his solicitor or anybody else——
This is set out on the back of the form of the draft statutory instrument which has been circulated to all Deputies.
I do not know whether the voter has to identify himself as the person who will actually use the postal vote, put it in the envelope and return it. Will this system work in the same way as, say, the system under which the university students vote in the Seanad elections? They must get a witness who will identify them as the persons who are entitled to use those particular postal votes. If this is not done, there could be serious abuses. We must ensure that the person with the postal vote is the person who uses it. Is there any loophole where a number of postal votes would go to certain addresses and that the people for whom they are intended will be the people who will physically use and mark those ballot papers.
I should like to thank the House for the way in which they have dealt with this matter. I am aware that all Deputies are as anxious as I am to ensure that this will work properly. We are all in politics and it is in all our interests to see that there are no abuses.
We have all heard and probably witnessed abuses of the present system. There may be abuses under the new system and I will be grateful for any information on abuses which may occur and which Deputies can certify and report to me. Then I will be glad to try to ensure that they do not happen when legislation is introduced for other elections.
In reply to Deputy Molloy, postal ballot papers will be sent out as soon as practicable after 24th May. This is the wording which is used in the regulations in regard to the Garda and the Army. It is impossible to say how soon papers will be sent out in the new situation because we do not know how many applications we will have. Voters will have until the close of the poll on 18th June to get their papers back by post to the returning officer. That will give them roughly three weeks, which should be reasonable enough. Deputy Molloy also spoke about free postage. There is no such thing as free postage because the post office has to be paid by someone for every service.
The postal votes of the Garda and the Army are usually opened on polling day itself.
The papers must be back by the close of the poll on polling day.
In the case of the Garda and the Army they are opened on the 18th, we will say.
They could be.
They are opened on polling day.
Anything that comes in up until the close of the poll has to be included under the existing regulations.
The Minister has the real facts. I am speaking from memory. I understand that the candidate's agents are invited to be present at the opening of the postal votes which usually takes place on the polling day.
Not in the constituency where I am. Anytime I have been dealing with elections the opening of the postal votes took place half an hour before the counting of ordinary votes, or the checking of them.
It takes place after the closing of the poll in some areas.
That is correct I understand. Some people do that. But any of them that come in up to the closing of the poll must be included.
I have been present at the opening of postal votes on the polling day in Galway.
After the last post?
I do not know but around 3 o'clock.
If any votes came in, it would be illegal if they were not included.
If a vote is deliverd by a person to the returning officer——
It must come by post. This is in the regulation.
Does the regulation state that a ballot paper can only be returned by post?
The regulation states: "Every elector whose name is on the postal voters list for a local electoral area shall be entitled to vote at the poll at an election for the said area by sending his ballot paper by post to the returning officer ...". There is no provision for any other way and I do not think there should be.
There is no such thing as free postage nowadays. The post office has to be paid by someone for every service provided since it is being operated as a commercial concern. We will even have to pay the post office for distributing the application forms for postal voting.
Who pays for them?
The Department of Local Government. I am not in favour of free postage for local elections because the cost would have to fall on the rates.
Why can the Department not pay for that too?
One must have doubts as to whether there is a waste as regard the posting of election literature which I presume is what it is all about.
That does not arise.
We are talking about free postage for election literature. The Deputy is talking about sending out notices telling people that they are entitled to vote.
That is the difference between an eastern and a western constituency.
If somebody has to send out election literature, there is also the cost of the printing and I would not like to see established candidates being in a much stronger position than the fellow starting off, in particular the independent who would not have the necessary money. It would be just as well if it was not dealt with at all. It is not proposed to introduce free postage. I thought Deputy Cunningham was talking about free postage for polling cards notifying people where they are to vote; this postage is borne by the local authority but it is optional whether they issue cards or not.
Deputy Molloy was talking about the islands. The only change in this respect is that until now it was provided that the poll can be closed early on any day but that that cannot be done on polling day. This probably was an omission in the previous regulations. I think it is more important to have this provision on polling day than on any other day. We either have to accept or reject this because of the shortage of time. I agree that possibly we have reached the stage where we might leave it out altogether. I suggest that we leave the regulation as it is this time and when legislation is being introduced we can consider whether it is necessary to do otherwise.
Can we not give islanders the postal vote?
If the fellow with the ballot box cannot get across the postman cannot either.
He has three weeks to play around with.
He can get a postal vote. Somebody asked who qualifies. If a case can be made for anybody that it would not be possible for him to vote on the polling day, there is no reason why he should not be included. Some people asked why we did not specify particular persons.
I think it is better this way.
It is much better because the returning officer is the person who will make the decision and if somebody applies for a postal vote unless the returning officer of his own knowledge knows that the application is not correct he must allow it.
If everybody on Inishbofin applied for a postal vote as being unlikely to be able to vote on the day, will they get a postal vote?
Again a person would have to give a specific reason. Personally I do not see——
Yes or no?
I would say the answer is yes subject to specifying a reason. There is no reason why we should not encourage people so long as there is not something hooky which there is not in that case. We are encouraging people to vote and I imagine it should be possible to have it done that way. Let us leave the rest of it as it is and if we want to change it when the legislation is introduced it can be dealt with.
It is quite clear now. Any islander can vote by post?
Why not include them as a category?
We are not including categories.
Hospital patients constitute a category.
We are only giving examples of people who could be included.
Any islander can vote by post?
There are qualifications laid down. I would like to say yes to Deputy Molloy but it is laid down that a person must be unable to vote in person for a specific reason. The four specified here are (1) circumstances of occupation, service or employment (2) absence from the address given on the register (3) illness or physical disability or (4) employment by a returning officer in connection with a local election.
They are not specifically covered there.
No.
Put them in.
I would have to go back to the Seanad again if I changed it at all. The time is very limited. Can we leave it for this occasion and we will make the necessary arrangements for it when legislation is going through?
They can have it if somebody, say the local priest, is prepared to certify that it is likely——
The Deputy is putting an onus on the priest which is not fair. I suggest that in the circular which the Minister will obviously be sending out to the local authorities that a provision be included to regard all islanders as qualifying.
I could not do it when it is not included in the regulations, unless they can be included by reason of the circumstances of their occupation, service or employment——
That covers them.
It would cover a lot.
You may have the ridiculous situation where it might cover 99 per cent of the islanders and yet you would have to carry out an election at a booth on the island.
We will still have to send a ballot box whether or not there is postal voting because the original regulations are there. I am trying to introduce something which would facilitate them in such a way that everybody could exercise the right to vote. I want to see everybody who has the right to vote being able to do so. Could we leave it at that? I want to refer to another group who have not been mentioned at all, for instance, lorry drivers and builders' labourers who leave home at 6.30 in the morning and may not be back home until 10 o'clock at night, which often happens in the month of June, people working on a double shift, which occasionally happens. Those people, because of their employment are covered although they are not specifically mentioned. As I mentioned earlier, there is no special provision relating to people living on an island. There is an arrangement already there in relation to advance polling. The box is sent earlier and this should still facilitate them. I wonder if everybody on an island would welcome postal voting.
I think they would.
The Minister asked a very important question. I have very great reservations.
If the Deputy is referring to postal voting in general, I would prefer he did not make a speech on it now.
I am not going to make a speech on it. On every register the Minister gets after an election he will find there will be at least 20 on that register who for various reasons did not vote. There are some decent candidates who would not stoop to this but I am afraid the smart fellow——
The Deputy may ask a question but he may not make a speech.
I would like to see that the person would have to vote before a garda or some such person.
In Britain there is no provision for postal voting on the islands but any person who has to make a sea or air journey is entitled to vote by post. I suggest that we leave this as it is. I believe those who are fishing, for instance, and who are unable to vote or cannot take the time to vote would be eligible. Possibly some of their wives might also be unable to vote. We would still have to have the polling booth on the island.
Deputy Burke spoke about the procedure for dealing with applications. This is set out in article 8. If a returning officer gets an application from somebody the application must be certified. This is where Deputy Cunningham's question comes in about the person working in England. I am not picking out businessmen in particular and saying that they can apply but migratory workers cannot. The person who is making the application must have his application certified by certain types of people, a garda, a clergyman, a local authority official or a health board official. The application must be filled in in his presence.
Does it have to be an Irish health board official?
Let me come to the second part, that is, that the ballot paper will then be sent to the address which has been set out on the application form and with it there will be a receipt which must be signed to prove it has been accepted by the person who is mentioned as having made the application. The person must sign the receipt and return it with the ballot paper. Ballot papers cannot be sent to an address outside the country. The returning officer cannot send the ballot papers to an address outside the country.
What about the businessman abroad?
The person abroad can send it on a person in England.
I am not saying what is to be done by them. I am saying that the person who makes the application for the postal vote must make it in the presence of certain people.
What about somebody working in Belfast or some other place in Northern Ireland?
I am simply stating what the qualification is. The person must (1) be on the register and (2) he must make an application which must be certified by a clergyman, a member of the garda—a member of the RUC does not do——
In the Republic only.
——and a health board or a local authority official. The application is to be certified by these people. This covers people in mental hospitals, which somebody referred to here.
It does not cover commuters going to Derry or Belfast.
It covers anybody who makes an application to vote and is on the register. These people qualify by having their applications certified. People who are commuting have a fortnight to do it. These people have ample time to apply. I believe there will be certain people who will, perhaps, bend the rules a bit.
The Minister would not suggest that?
I would not suggest that at all but I am quite sure that Deputy Molloy is as well aware as I am that there will be efforts made to bend it a bit. I want to warn that, particularly with regard to hospitals, old folks' homes and mental hospitals, there are very strict penalties laid down. One Deputy asked if the person had to sign the form himself or if there could be group applications made. The question whether an application could be made by a solicitor. There are no group applications to be made. The applications must be made by the people concerned, they must sign them and they must be certified. If it comes to light that there are cases where people break that regulation, and where there is an attempt made by somebody to vote for people who are unable to vote, that is a breach of the law and will be dealt with pretty severely. We all heard stories about what happened in some of the mental hospitals and in old folks' homes some years ago where people were wheeled out to vote and some of them were not wheeled back again. They had to go back under their own steam. As a result of that, one of my predecessors made a rule that mental hospital patients could only be registered in their home areas. This was an excellent idea. Voting from mental hospitals will be spread over a very wide area if such voting takes place. Some mental hospital patients are able to vote and are entitled to vote, but those who are not able to make application should not have it made for them by someone else and, if it were made for them, that would be a breach of the regulations. We are all agreed this sort of abuse, when it does occur, does not do politicians any good.
That is how Deputy Toal got elected, by an abuse in the votes in Monaghan. I witnessed it myself. Ask Deputy L'Estrange. He machined the whole job.
Acting Chairman
The Deputy must withdraw that comment.
It is legitimate political comment. On a point of order, is it in order for one political party to make a political comment to the effect that people in a mental hospital were organised by a certain candidate?
Acting Chairman
A name was mentioned by the Deputy. The Minister should be allowed now to continue.
To say that the people of Monaghan's decision was made by the mental hospital patients there is something Deputy Molloy should not get away with.
The county home. I saw the machine operate. The people could hardly walk——
I can tell Deputy Molloy the operations I saw going on in county homes where relatives of candidates went in and controlled the voting. However, the less said about this now the better; it is something about which none of us is very proud, no matter what party engaged in it.
Will this proposal increase this kind of thing?
It should stop it and I am warning anyone who gets involved in this kind of thing that he is breaking the law if an application is made for a vote in another person's name. We want to stop that. We are all anxious to stop it.
There was some comment by Deputy Burke about embassy staff. If they are on the register of electors they will be entitled to vote. Later on, when legislation is being prepared we can consider whether there should be a change in the registration law in order to give all embassy staff votes and to include all those staff outside the country.
The Minister said migratory workers could not vote.
Deputy Cunningham said I said that but that is not what I said. Migratory workers who qualify——
If they come home they can vote.
They can vote. The millions who left this country over the years and who are living abroad cannot vote and I do not think Deputy Cunningham would expect us to include them. If migratory workers are on the register—and they are entitled to be if they are coming back within 18 months of leaving the country; Deputy Molloy knows that is the regulation—and they apply to vote and the ballot paper is sent to their home address and is certified as having been received by the person who made the application and the ballot paper comes back in time, then they can vote in that way.
The form states the application must be signed by a garda, a clergyman, an officer of a local authority or an officer of the health board. The application has to be certified by certain officials.
There is no member of the Garda anywhere else except in the Republic of Ireland, but there are members of the clergy elsewhere.
Will an English clergyman do?
If a clergyman signs it, I see no reason why it should not be accepted.
Is that categorical?
The regulations are there.
We are looking for information so that we can decide what action we will take.
If somebody applies for a postal vote and the form is certified by one of people referred to, the address to which the ballot paper is to be sent is given, and that address is inside the country, and the person is on the register, there is apparently no reason why the application must come from Ireland. The person could have gone away for a couple of days and be coming back again after polling day. A person could be away for a considerable period, be on the register and, therefore, entitled to vote.
But a vote posted outside the country will not be accepted here.
It is immaterial where it is posted. There are people who cross the Border to do their posting. A rate collector is reputed to have done that.
One can indicate by innuendo that the Garda Síochána are the police force within the State, but if it is signed by a clergyman, an officer of the local authority or an officer of the health board,——
These are legal terms to be interpreted in a certain way.
How could you check that a clergyman is actually a clergyman?
He might not be a clergyman, but there might be signatures from clergymen in Ireland who are not clergymen.
One could check on these but not on those in England.
Someone in South Africa might be on the register and everything could be done by airmail. The application could be signed by a clergyman in South Africa. Would that be accepted as sufficient identification to enable the applicant to be issued with a postal vote?
The idea was a clergyman known in the area, recognised as a person of repute but, because the term clergyman is fairly wide, I am prepared to agree that if someone applies for a postal vote and the application is signed by someone purporting to be a clergyman, that person will be entitled to a vote. If he is on the register and the ballot paper arrives in time, he will be accepted. But he must give an Irish address. That is quite explicit.
Someone else might apply for a vote for someone who had no knowledge of postal voting.
We have been talking about that for the last half hour. If someone applies for a vote other than for himself, he is committing a serious offence and, if the matter comes to light, he will be prosecuted.
I was concerned about the case where someone applies for a vote for a person in an institution and sends it to an address other than the institution—the same thing could happen to an old person living at home. There is no one to vouch for the signature.
Is the Deputy opposed to the whole system of postal voting?
No. I would ask the Minister to be reasonable.
Acting Chairman
The Minister has dealt with this matter already.
There could be some abuse here. For instance, if the Reverend Ian Black states he is a resident of South Africa and that he knows personally the person who is applying for a postal vote, the Minister has no way of identifying the authenticity of the Reverend Black in South Africa. The word "clergyman" does not mean a thing.
It may not mean a lot. We want people to be able to use their votes who ordinarily might not be able to use them for a number of reasons. We could have imposed severe restrictions. We could have asked that everyone who applied for a postal vote should go to a Garda station. It might then be asked why these applicants could not also go to the polling station. The cure was worse than the disease and we decided to leave the matter there.
I agree with the Minister.
With regard to old folk who might be sick, the reason we did not include doctors—whom it was originally thought would certify—was that the doctors said they would only do it if they were paid. Again, we did not want people to have to pay for the right to vote. I have said the system is not perfect but we must make an effort to widen it. I would ask the House to accept that this is being done in good faith. It is the job of all of us, and of representatives outside the House, to see that it is as foolproof as far as possible.
The Minister stated embassy staff would be able to vote but I do not see how they can.
If they are on the register they can vote the same as anybody else. If they are not on the register, when the permanent legislation is introduced later, we propose including a provision in connection with embassy staff. Personally I believe they are entitled to vote and we will make provision for them. The question of the Army is different. The ballot papers are sent to GHQ and they are distributed to the Army personnel, whether they are in Athlone or in the Middle East.
If a returning officer is asked for a postal vote and one of the four reasons is given, he must accept that the person is entitled to a vote unless he has knowledge that the information given is wrong. If a postal vote is applied for and if the person concerned comes to the booth and says he did not apply for it, even though a postal vote application may have come in for him from somebody else, he is entitled to claim a vote if he is prepared to swear he did not apply for the vote originally. He will get the same kind of ballot paper as everyone; the 1963 Act removed the provision regarding the different coloured ballot papers.
A list will be given to each candidate of the people entitled to a postal vote. The registers in the ballot boxes will have the names of those who have been given postal votes marked off in green ink.
There is a problem here in that this work must be done by the county council staff who will have only a short period in which to do it. There might be a danger of some names being overlooked.
They will have three weeks to do it.
The Department estimate one out of every 20——
Again, the Deputy is saying we should not have postal voting.
I am in favour of postal voting. The Minister should not be so sarcastic. I am afraid of abuse of the system.
I know the system is not perfect. I do not want to be catty about it and say we could have tried this a long time ago. The advice was against trying it. However, if something has to be done it should be done. We may make mistakes but a person who never made a mistake never did anything.
That is nothing new to the Minister.
I made many efforts to do things that could have been done but were not. If I made an occasional mistake I cannot be blamed. Those who did nothing also made their share of mistakes. I should like to thank the House for the comments that have been made. While there has been some cross-talk, as there has not been a Committee Stage perhaps this is the best way of dealing with this matter. We have succeeded in ironing out many points and it is all right if we do not agree on everything. Apparently all of us are in favour of postal voting and we want to see it work properly. If it does not work properly it is not our fault. It is up to us to ensure that when legislation is introduced in the future we will be able to include in it remedies for the mistakes that may occur this time. I believe it will make little or no difference to the outcome of elections. I should like to see many more people voting but I think the proportion of people who will vote will be roughly the same as hitherto.
Someone mentioned the question of where polling stations are sited. If there is a polling station upstairs in a premises, it is right that a person who may not be able to go upstairs should get a postal vote. There would be a health reason in this case. These measures are inserted for the purpose of increasing the opportunities of people to vote. With regard to Sunday voting, I think if this happened we would have many more people voting. However, there has been no pressure from any group, except on a very small scale, for Sunday voting. In fact, the last joint committee of the Houses of the Oireachtas that considered this matter recommended against week-end voting; they were opposed to voting on Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday.
They also recommended against postal voting.
That is so. Perhaps if enough pressure is exerted we might have a look at weekend voting, but not this time.
Can the Minister state who will get the marked registers? Will it only be the presiding officers? What about polling clerks or the agents for the candidates?
Only the officials present will get one. The agents for the candidates will be able to mark their own registers from the lists supplied to them.
Why did the Minister want to extend the right of the returning officer to commandeer school halls for counting centres?
The right was always there. The new regulation only clarifies the matter; they are entitled to do it if it is more convenient for them. I do not think there will be any change regarding where the counting will take place. We have given them the authority because there was a little doubt whether they were entitled to do it before.
Can the Minister state if there is the same liberal approach with regard to someone voting with old people or voting for them if they are disabled?
The provisions about giving assistance to somebody to vote have not been changed although I am doubtful whether people should be entitled to have others vote for them. I think the old system where they voted openly was a better way. Where an old person voted openly those present were sworn to secrecy, although some of them did not know that. They were breaking the law if they disclosed how a person had voted.
The whole village knew about it.
The regulation states that they are entitled to assist only two people but it is not unusual to find people wearing a path in and out all day.
Will that still apply for the postal vote?
It will not be changed.
If a person takes away a postal vote to ensure that it is posted——
Postal voters must vote themselves and there must be no interference. If people apply for a postal vote and get it and somebody takes that vote and purports to post it for them, or put it in an envelope for them, that is an offence under the electoral law.
Suppose the woman of the house is an invalid and she says to her husband: "You fill up that form for me and vote for the following men. Bring it down to the post office and post it for me." She cannot go out and that is why she has applied for the postal vote. Is that OK?
She is supposed to vote herself. In the event of her eventually regaining her legs and being able to go out and she tells the neighbours that her husband voted for her, he could get six months.
Question put and agreed to.