Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 May 1974

Vol. 272 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 44: Defence (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

—(Deputy Meaney.)

Mr. Bermingham

On the last evening I spoke of new housing being provided for Army personnel and I said that I hoped that this policy would continue. I spoke of improvements in living quarters for soldiers to live-in in barracks and there is still room for further improvements there. I know the Minister is trying to do something about that. I also spoke of a sports complex at the Curragh. Army personnel should be encouraged to take part in different kinds of sport and even to compete with the civilian population around the various barracks. In recent years the Army do not seem to have participated as much as formerly in sporting activities in the areas in which they are in barracks. Some years ago in Kildare Army teams were county champions in Gaelic football and actually kept hurling alive in Kildare. I am not too sure if they take part at all now in these competitions.

It may not be possible to provide a sports complex quickly but I would ask the Minister to examine the possibility of making such facilities available to the public and to the various clubs surrounding the Curragh. This would do a great deal to put our Army in their proper place in society. People would look up to the Army for leadership in sport. I am told that in other areas gymnasia and other such facilities are not in full use by the Army. They should be made available to clubs and people anxious to use them. This, again, would help to bring more co-operation between the public and the Army. I have been told that there is a gymnasium at Renmore, Galway, which is not in full use and that could be used by clubs and other people interested in gymnastics in that area.

There is another form of activity which has been one of the traditions of our Army, the Army bands. These bands are made available whenever possible to people needing an Army band. I want to congratulate everybody concerned in that activity; it should be continued, and if possible, expanded. However, people who make a career of music in the Army have very little prospects of promotion. That is a pity because we are all proud of our Army bands and they project a very good image of our Army. Some of the people involved in these bands feel a little frustrated as far as promotion is concerned. Therefore, I would suggest that if a man has put in a certain number of years in an Army band he should be entitled to some kind of promotion.

In regard to drill displays and the other activities of the Army which bring the Army more and more into the public eye, these should be encouraged. Our Army should be in the position of leadership in every possible area.

I come now to a question I raised last year in relation to the civilian prison on the Curragh. I realised the necessity for the Department of Justice and the Department of Defence to keep prisoners somewhere, but military custody is not the proper place to keep civilian prisoners. This civilian prison on the Curragh has done a lot to frustrate soldiers who do not expect to be involved in this kind of activity when they join the service. I would urge the Minister, in co-operation with the Minister for Justice, to end as soon as possible the civilian prison on the Curragh, which affects the lives of the ordinary people who always went through most of the Curragh without let or hindrance. There is the question of security. There are security risks involved in making the facilities at military barracks or military quarters available to civilians but that situation would be eased a lot, as far as the Curragh is concerned at any rate, if we did not have the civilian prison there.

I would ask the Minister to do something about the small number of men who remain on in the Army and stay single. When these people retire on pension they find there is no gratuity for them because they are single. I do not know all the background to this but there is a feeling amongst serving soldiers that there is some kind of discrimination against single men. The number involved is not great and it would not cost much to rectify the matter. An effort might be made by the Department to provide a gratuity for single men who retire after the number of years necessary to qualify for a pension—perhaps they might be given a smaller amount than married people. There is the impression in the Army that there is a certain amount of discrimination in this area against single people.

In the area around the Curragh there is a system in operation which seems to work very well. When the young soldiers finish their training for the day they are allowed to go home and they report to the barracks the next morning. This arrangement suits the Department of Defence and the soldiers. In travelling from my home town of Athy, which is about 12 or 14 miles from the Curragh, I have noticed that there is no bus service available for the young soldiers to take them back to their barracks. Perhaps a bus service might be provided for these Army personnel to enable them to return home in the evenings and to travel to the Curragh in the mornings.

I have heard complaints that soldiers are being asked to do work which should properly be done by civilian employees. I do not want to labour that point but I would ask the Minister to look into this matter. With regard to civilian employment on the Curragh, some years ago announcements regarding vacancies were put on a notice board and it was open to people in civilian employment to apply for these posts. There were all sorts of allegations of how they got the jobs but at least they were advertised. I have been told that this practice of announcing vacancies has been discontinued and that is a pity.

I have received numerous complaints about long delays in the payment of sick pay. The Army pay civilian workers when they are ill and that is desirable but there have been long delays in these payments. In any type of employment, sick pay should be paid without any delay. There are also delays in the payment of gratuities and pensions to civilian employees. I suppose this is understandable in some instances, but in other cases it is difficult to explain the delays. A system should be evolved to ensure that the benefits are paid to a person immediately on retirement. There may be exceptions where delays will be unavoidable, but if people were asked to notify the authorities about their date of retirement and if they give a certain amount of notice gratuities and pensions should be paid immediately.

I should like to join in congratulating the Minister on the improvements he intends to make in the Army Equitation School and in the stock of horses. In this way we can make our people even more proud of the Army. Any money that is spent on improving the lot of the soldiers and raising the prestige of the Army is money well spent.

The problem of the over-holder on the Curragh is a long-standing one. A person who is living in Army housing and who retires from the Army cannot get his pension or gratuity or civilian employment on the camp where he has given his life service because he has nowhere to go when he leaves the Army accommodation. There are numerous people in my constituency who are in this unfortunate situation. The problem may not be entirely the problem of the Army but they created it in my constituency. I agree the local authority should have some part to play in solving this problem but they are handicapped in that they are trying to house people who are in condemned housing, who are living in overcrowded or inferior housing conditions. These people who, through no fault of their own, have been housed by the Department of Defence, are long serving soldiers or they would not be housed by the Department. When they leave that employment they find that the facilities to which they are entitled by the length of their service, the pension and the gratuity, and the hope of employment as civilians on the camp where they have given their life service, are denied to them. They have no housing and, therefore, they must stay in Army quarters. They have no other option.

I think the Minister said last year that he was meeting the county managers on this issue which is very important to anybody finding himself in those circumstances. It means the difference between living well and poverty. When the man leaves the Army he finds that he cannot get his gratuity. I agree that, on sympathetic grounds, the Minister can give him some of his gratuity. I want to congratulate him. I found him most considerate in these cases. The Department want to get possession of these premises. The unfortunate ex-soldier wants to get out. The local authority cannot condemn good living accommodation. They have to consider where they will house the applicant.

Some money should be made available to long-serving soldiers to build their own houses. I mentioned this last year. There was some discussion between Kildare County Council and the Department of Defence about providing houses, or lending money to these unfortunate people to build their own houses even a few years prior to their retirement from the Army. Something will have to be done to make this whole area work better than it has been working.

At least 30, 40 or 50 people on the Curragh applied for a recent allocation of houses in Kildare. There are not enough houses and those people are left in that predicament. I would ask the Minister to take a very serious look at this problem to see if anything can be done. By and large, the Minister is doing well for the Army. I want to congratulate him on what he is doing. I would ask him to look seriously at the points I have raised.

Mr. Tunney

I should like to join with other speakers in extending my best wishes to the Minister in the very difficult office which he holds. Since he accepted that office I could, perhaps, point to one or two areas where he might, in my opinion, have made mistakes. I will not refer to any of those mistakes. I would prefer to say to the Minister that I hope he will continue to be as industrious and as adventurous as he has been since he took office. I accept, as every other reasonable person must accept, that the more work you do the more likelihood there is of your making a mistake. That type of Minister is the Minister who appeals to me rather than the cautious Minister who, in his fear of making a mistake, will do nothing.

My real interest in the Army is shared by everybody. This is an institution for which we pay a financial premium, if you like, which assures us of peaceful living. It is strange and, indeed, paradoxical that we should spend so much money and so much time on, and that we should devote so much of our resources to an institution which we hope ultimately will never be called upon to do that for which it is preparing. I suppose this has been the nature of armies since they were first instituted.

At times I wonder whether we should continue on those lines or whether we might look upon the Army as an instituation, as a force, or as a resource, which could be employed to much greater advantage for the benefit of the State and of the community in time of peace. I do not intend to develop that point. I am not unaware of the fact that strong, healthy, intelligent men in Army barracks can find life rather boring at times. We have great skills in our Army. Perhaps they could marry their resources to the civil resources and take upon themselves certain projects in which they could exercise their skill, their physical energies, and their mental energies. I just mention this in passing.

Perhaps we could demolish a useless hill and make it into a worthwhile building site, or restore some old marshes to what might be regarded as a suitable area for houses. This would save fine arable land from being used for housing around the city of Dublin and in Meath which is being used at present and which will be sadly missed in years to come. Such an operation would tend to create in the minds of the general public a greater respect and a greater regard for the Army.

I should like to comment especially on something which Deputy Bermingham referred to, something on which I put down questions in past years and to which I referred in Estimate debates. Notwithstanding the enlightenment which has come to the Army, generally speaking, I fear that we are still requiring our Army personnel— here I am thinking more especially of the non-commissioned men—to live and be happy with regulations and rules of discipline which are archaic and antiquated and which are not likely to generate the esprit de corps which we would all wish to see generated.

We still have in the Army the old idea of referring to a recruit, a private, a sergeant or other personnel by number rather than by name. We also have a situation in which men in the Army are required to perform duties and exercises which are not in keeping with the dignity of man and are not in keeping with the regard which a self-respecting man has for himself. Perhaps over the last few months this has disappeared. When I think of the Army I like to think of intelligent, able-bodied men who are interested in and are being prepared for manly duties, I do not like to hear of such men called on to serve as maids in the houses of Army officers and performing duties not in keeping with what I would regard as suitable for men and women outside the family or the person to whom the duty refers.

There is still within the Army an attitude of getting men to do what is convenient and suitable to officers and people who enjoy higher positions but which is entirely unsuitable and, in fact, is damaging to the good name of Army personnel. I know this happens only to a very limited degree but I hope it is an area which will be examined by officers, civil servants and especially by the Minister. I hope the Minister will adjudicate and say that from now on no Army personnel will be required to perform the menial tasks they have performed up to now. Discipline that comes solely out of the fear of higher officers, the fear of regulations and virtue that is enforced are useful for the moment but most damaging in the long term. I would suggest the psychology which I practised for a few years when I had charge of staff. It is that people will be as good as those whom they serve and they will show respect in accordance with that which is shown to them.

We may say those men are being well paid for the duties they perform, that they joined up and having done so they must do what they are told. That is all right when you have showed them that everything they are doing is in keeping with the manly call but it is a different story when it is not and when the only reason for their performing those duties is that they know if they refuse they can be accused of disobeying and one must not disobey in the Army. If those duties are performed because the men will lose pay at the end of the week, this is not a good reason for asking them to do this work. Those men will not feel any sense of indebtedness towards the Army or towards society. I appeal to the Minister to bring into the Army outside consultants who will indicate how best to update rules and regulations which were more appropriate to times which are long since passed.

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil suim ag an Aire, cosúil liom féin, sa Ghaeilge agus nach suim amaideach í. Ní théann ceachtar againn timpeall ag iarraidh an Ghaeilge a bhrú ar éinne ach tá sé thar a bheith tábhachtach chomh fada agus a bhaineann sé leis an Airm agus leis an dtír go mbeadh an teanga náisiúnta againn amach anseo ar a laghad. Ba mhaith liom dá n-úsáidfí an Ghaeilge san Arm chomh fada agus is féidir gan cur isteach ar imeachtaí an Airm.

Ba mhaith liom an Ghaeilge a bheith in úsáid ag na saighdiúirí féin ar chuile ócáid agus go nglachfadh siad gurab é an comhartha cosanta is fearr atá againn san náisiún seo an Ghaeilge féin. Ní theastaíonn uainn an Ghaeilge a bheith i réim ámarach, an bhliain seo chugainn no faoi cheann deich mbliain. Ní bheadh sé in-déanta ach tá sé thar a bheith tábhachtach go mbeidh sí i réim uair éigin le cúnamh Dé. Ní mór dúinn go léir a bheith sásta cabhrú chun an cuspóir sin a chur i gcrích. Dála an scéil, tá súil agam go bhfuil an tAire ag coinneáil súil ar an gCath Gaelach i nGaillimh agus nach mbeidh aon laghdú ar thábhacht na Gaeilge chomh fada is a bhaineann sé leis an gCath sin.

I should hope that the Minister would share with me the belief that in our national Army the existence of that admittedly non-military factor should be recognised. As I said earlier, we train and prepare armies and hope all the while that the action for which they are trained and prepared may never occur. I submit that, especially in the case of a need arising internally the best way we can ensure against that happening is to recognise all the factors which agitate the mind of the normal Irishman. In such recognition we should accept the normal and natural desire for national identity and if there is any one area, any one element or factor more than anything else which helps towards the creation of that identity it is our Irish language. Because of that I should hope that within the Army recognition of that factor will continue and I trust that the Minister will apply himself to this particular aspect, not in any fanatical or, indeed, stupid fashion or in any fashion which would, perhaps, do more harm than good, but that he would recognise the continuing importance of the Irish language within the Army and would reasonably, and having regard to all the difficulties which there are, accept that at least gradually and in a piecemeal way we should be moving towards the position where every member of the Army would enjoy for a certain part of the day exchanging thoughts with fellow Army men in the Irish language.

Other speakers have referred to the position of the FCA and have expressed their concern that here also should be an area of operation where we might have further and continuing development. I must say how happy I am and how much it impresses me, speaking for my own constituency, when any of the young lads there indicate to me that they are members of the FCA and are involved in these operations. Even though they may have been in the FCA only some few months, already one can notice the benefits which have come to these young men. Having regard to what is called, however incorrectly, free education at the present time young men remain at school now for much longer, spend many more years there than they did years ago, and we have thousands of young men now at the age of 16, 17, 18 and 19 for whom a short spell of Army training is not alone desirable but I should almost say necessary. I see in the FCA the initiation of this, and we could appeal to all these young men to join the FCA, and hope that having tasted that type of life perhaps their appetite for joining the Army proper would be whetted. Apart from that whatever period they spend with the FCA will have a worthwhile effect on them which will more than compensate for the relatively small cost involved.

We hear quite a lot about vandalism and all forms of misbehaviour of which we are told young men can be accused. I am not saying the Army should be used as a safety value for that. I would not want to make little of the Army by so suggesting, but if these young men could be enticed into the FCA, apart from whatever positive duties they could perform, I have no doubt it would have a lasting beneficial effect on themselves and, arising from that, a beneficial effect on society and on our community.

I should like to refer to what might be regarded as a small point but to me it is a rather major point. I would regard it is a minor tragedy and it occurs when we are recruiting young men into the Army. For some years I served on the visiting committee of St. Patrick's Institution and that committee was very happy that in Dublin city there were employers to whom they could appeal to employ young men who, through one misfortune or another, had been obliged to spend a period in St. Patrick's junior prison. We admired very much the attitude of these employers who were prepared to disregard the fact that particular boys had been imprisoned for a period. Such employers were prepared to accept that bygones were bygones. They employed these young men and placed confidence in them to carry out duties connected with their firm and oft times connected with their livelihood. To me that is the more pleasant and more correct side of the picture.

Against that we have a different situation in the Army. When a young man presents himself to the recruiting officer and is accepted he spends almost six months in training. However, when he is about to be classified as an Army private a report which was sought earlier by the Army authorities arrives from the Garda and because this boy in the past had been guilty of what I would regard as a boyish misdemeanour the Army authorities tell him that they do not want him and that he must go. I have known of at least six cases where joy and happiness was brought to young boys, and their parents, because of the fact that the boys who up to now had not been blessed with any of the more satisfying aspects of this life found themselves in the Army, and were giving absolute satisfaction to their commanding officer. However, on receipt of the Garda report which no more than indicated that the boys with two or three others had tampered with a car, or had gone on a joy-ride on a motor cycle and had been subsequently charged, they were told that they were not fit for the Army.

I am not suggesting that we should reduce the standards of behaviour as far as our Army is concerned and I would accept that, in the case of some boy who would have shown many instances of criminal tendency, it would not help to have him in a barrack with comrades or companions who would fear or suspect him having regard to the fact that he had been guilty of stealing or taking that which did not belong to him. For this reason his comrades would not feel happy leaving things around. I could understand the need for avoiding such young men but, on the other hand, we must accept that human frailty being what it is there are places outside the Army barracks, places which are regarded as being very special and are, perhaps, frequented exclusively by intellectuals, where one is not always safe in leaving things lying around. To contend that by removing such an unfortunate boy from this area we are going to lead to perfection in the Army is an attitude which I cannot accept. It is one which is completely devoid of any form of correct throught for humanity.

I should like to ask the Minister in respect of boys who have suffered in the manner in which I have indicated over the last two or three years to have another look at the position. Where it can be shown that these boys appeared to the Army personnel to have discovered themselves within the Army, where they were absolutely happy, where it can be shown that they were capable of great things, he should reconsider their case. In many cases because of an unsatisfactory Gárda report about some triviality we heap on that boy, and on his family, the embarrassment of having to return to his home and his locality with the stigma that he would not be accepted by the Army. I am not saying I have put this correctly and I accept that in so stating I might be accused of saying that something other than the best is good enough for the Army. I am not saying that but to me it is one of the greatest institutional crimes committed on any young boy or on his family.

I know it is very easy for some well-paid smug officer, who has no conception at all of the botherations which this young man had, to take refuge in what he calls Army regulations. It is very easy for him, when I make representations on behalf of this young boy, to quote Army regulations. I do not make representations lightly and I would only make them in circumstances where I was convinced that the Army should be as sympathetic towards this boy as an employer in Dublin city would be. I would only do so if I had evidence that private and commercial concerns would be prepared to give this boy a chance. If the Minister thinks I have said anything worth while on this Estimate, he should accept this point as the one in which I am most interested. For heaven's sake, do not have it said that the Army is so impersonal, indeed, so un-Christian and un-Irish as to put this stamp on any young Irishman.

I would ask the Minister, too, to have a look at sporting facilities. Deputy Bermingham and Deputy G. Fitzgerald have spoken about these and there is no need for me to stress the importance that one attaches to the place of games and sport of all kinds within the Army. In the Phoenix Park the Army have a property which is not fully utilised. I refer to the Army sports grounds. I do not know if one could describe a field as a white elephant, but this ground is not being used to anything like the extent to which it should be used. I am not unmindful of the fact —indeed, I have reason to know— that not too far away from the Army sports ground there are many married Army men. At times their sons have difficulty in obtaining the use of a playing pitch. This may be a relatively minor matter but, having regard to the pressure on both Dublin Corporation and the Office of Public Works to provide football pitches for the young people of Dublin, who are concerned about such pursuits, we might look at the possibility of making facilities available to the young sons of Army men in the Army sports ground in the Phoenix Park. I would not advance the same argument in regard to the pitch adjacent to the barracks because one can see that there might be certain dangers in that. This pitch in the middle of the Phoenix Park is not, as I say, being used as it should be used and, perhaps as an indication of our regard for Army men and their families, we might make it known to them that, if they can organise properly, that pitch will be made available exclusively to the sons of Army men.

That represents all I wish to say on this Estimate. I will finish on the note on which I started by offering my congratulations to the Minister on his appointment, perhaps a little belatedly, but this is the first opportunity I have had of doing so. I would ask him to continue his industry and, at least as far as I am concerned, he can be happy in the knowledge that he will not get from me any adverse comments on his mistakes, if he makes any. Being human, it is inevitable that he will sometimes make mistakes but, if he does so, I hope they will be few.

Mr. Coughlan

I, like every other speaker who preceded me, want to take this opportunity of congratulating the Minister on the way in which he has accepted the onerous and difficult task placed upon him in the situation that exists at the moment in our Department of Defence. There was a time when the Department of Defence could be treated as someone at the back of the queue, a back number in the Cabinet. Of late, that position has changed because of all the turbulence and troubles in the political field and the Army has as a result stepped into a position of extreme responsibility.

I must compliment the Minister on the manner in which he has accepted his responsibilities and particularly on his very human approach to all ranks. He has left a very good impression on all members of the Army from the lowest to the highest.

I live in what used to be known as a garrison city when the British were in occupation of our country. I remember them well. When they left, the barracks was taken over by our own National Army. My knowledge and experience of the Army goes back, therefore, a long way. I know the positions and I know what is being done at the present time. The Minister has taken a general approach to his position. When I say "general" I mean general in its Army connotation. On every occasion possible, even when it was not necessary and even, perhaps, when it was undesirable, he has made himself available. His personality is appreciated, colourful as it is, and colour is something we want in any man attached to the Army. We must have colour, personality and courage. This is what will attract young men to the vocation of Army life.

The Minister organised a recruiting drive, a drive which has been much more successful than any of the recruiting drives organised by his predecessor. That demonstrates the manner in which the Minister has taken on his responsibilities and the knowledge he possesses of the particular exercise demanded of him in his position as Minister for Defence. The recruitment drive has been successful beyond all our expectations. Young men have now come to realise and appreciate that there is a future in the Army. Within the Army there is available all sorts of educational facilities and apprenticeships. The Cadets are sent to university and fitted for the different professions. These are definite attractions. These are the things which help youth to realise that there is a future for them in the Army and an appreciation by the Minister and his Department of the usefulness of all sorts of skills and professions.

As spokesman in the Labour Party on Defence, I personally called on Army barracks throughout the country. I called on speck and I inspected these barracks without giving any advance notice of my intended visit. I saw for myself the conditions under which Army personnel served. With one or two minor exceptions, I was pleased with the way in which Army personnel are treated. I went through the kitchens; I sat at their tables; I inspected their food and, with very few exceptions, found that there was a happiness and contentment within the ranks. There was esprit de corps which is most important in any Army. There was an affinity and loyalty which has spread right through the Army. Our present Minister set a headline by being associated with every possible event in which the Army takes part. He came under adverse criticism from the Fianna Fáil benches as is to be expected when a Minister is doing a good job. He put up not alone a defence but an offence with regard to the position he holds. I congratulate him on the manner in which he mixes and his adaptability with the men. He is accepted as one of themselves among the ranks in the Army. That is the opinion held by the majority of our Army.

I come from a city where hundreds of Army men come and go. From my association with those men I know that they hold the Minister in high regard. If I had anything critical to say, I would be the first person to express myself along those lines. There fore, what I say is the truth.

We have sent men overseas. They have brought honour and glory to themselves and their country. They have experienced a training which until they look up the duties of protection in other countries was foreign to them in every sense of the word. I suggest we send more men on foreign service. The more experience our men get, the more they associate with members of other armies and know the conditions under which they have to serve the better. A soldier is a soldier for 24 hours of every day of the year. It is an education for these men to be sent overseas to gain experience and knowledge of conditions in places other than Ireland.

The Minister has announced some wonderful improvements in his Estimate to attract men to the Army. I never thought a Minister would be so courageous as to offer gratuities of from £25 to £150 to men who served six or seven years. This is an acknowledgment of what they are doing for their country. He has made recruitment to the Army more attractive and the position of the Army man is more secure now than at any time since our Independence. He has also raised the enlistment age to 32. Because of the variations of our life today, if he is not settled a man at the age of 32 could still make a perfect soldier. There is nothing wrong with that.

I have very strong feelings about Slua Muirí. We had a Slua Muirí force in Limerick which comprised a few hundred men. Unfortunately, because of lack of facilities, training and the necessary things which go to make up a sailor's life, the numbers have diminished and are practically negligible at the present time. There are men who would prefer the sailing life to the Army life. I suggest that the Minister in order to protect one of our greatest industries, the fishing industry and to train our volunteers in the Slua Muirí force, should provide some smaller vessels which would carry a complement of six men and a gun which could patrol our fishing grounds. We all know that the protection of our fisheries is farcical when we consider the area involved. Ten or 20 lighter and faster boats should be available for Slua Muiríto patrol our coasts. I would impress on the Minister the necessity for this and hope he will adhere to my request.

The improvements in the Army gymnasia, billets and cookhouses have been excellent. Each private has a single cubicle with a light over his bed. The big, damp, cold, airy, dormitories are gone. We are coming more to the idea of cubicle accommodation for the Army which gives them the privacy we all seek from time to time. These cubicles, which I visited in Army barracks all over the country, are in excellent condition and up to second-class hotel standards. The Minister must be congratulated for making life as pleasant as possible in very difficult circumstances, particularly with the political situation as it is at present.

I would suggest that in order to make Army life more attractive there should be more promotion from the ranks. Lads join at 17 or 18 and may go to their vocational classes or learn skilled work through the Army services, but I would like to see the same system as in the Garda Síochána. A young garda coming out of Templemore could finish up as commissioner if he has the qualifications demanded for such a position. In the Army there is this specialised way of recruitment through cadet-ships which is physically and educationally very demanding. However, going through these exercises does not mean that a person would be a good soldier, and by that I mean a good leader, a good captain, a man who will make and carry out decisions in respect of whatever group or battalion he is in charge of. The man who comes up through the ranks gains experience. I know people in the Army who may be of sergeant or quarter master sergeant rank who should be allowed to go further because they have the capacity to do so. The fact that recruits have leaving certificate with honours or can pass extreme physical tests should not be the criterion. I would ask the Minister to make so many positions available for these young people who join the Army below the bottom rung and who have the capacity for promotion up along the line.

I must also congratulate the Minister on the facilities he has made available in connection with games and Army activities of various kinds which go more with civilian than with Army life. Knowing the Minister's capacity for getting the job done, I am sure he will see that these activities are promoted and encouraged within the Army to make it more attractive.

In regard to housing, some first-class houses have been erected within the confines of the Army complex, but it has not been done to the degree that is demanded. I do not want to set up as an example the conditions which existed during the British regime but they did do one thing anyway. They built houses for their officers and their men completely outside the domain of the Army barracks. Anybody who has been associated with those garrison towns at that time will have seen for themselves the houses that were made available for all ranks within the Army. The Minister should do his best within the limits of his Estimate to provide proper housing facilities either within or outside the barracks.

The FCA is a voluntary organisation of people who do their annual training. This is an excellent thing but we have not put sufficient push into recruitment to the FCA. The Minister's recruitment drive within the Army has been successful and I would ask him to apply himself in a similar manner to recruitment to the FCA, not alone because of the service they give and because of their physical capability but also because of the civic spirit the organisation engenders. It encourages a sense of discipline in the youth of today who are absolutely crying out for some kind of direction.

I put down a question here some time ago in regard to compulsory training for the Army. I have not yet changed my mind on this issue. Even though the Minister gave me a figure of £15 million as the cost for the compulsory Army training for two months of the year from the age of 16 to 18 and one month's compulsory training from 18 to 19 years, I think this would be money well spent. Most young people of these ages get temporary jobs during the summer holidays but if we could provide within the Army a training course it would be a great advantage. I know we could not do it all with one stroke but we could take on a hundred or two hundred this year and maybe 100 or 200 next year. This would save the youth of our nation from the temptations that are around them on all sides today which, thank goodness, were not there in our time. We hear of skinheads, blockheads, boot boys and all kinds of things. If we had compulsory training for these boys, to discipline them on the lines demanded by society, and make them good citizens, we would avoid all the drug addiction, the skinhead antics, the bottle-throwing and other ills that are so prevalent nowadays. A short period of military training—three months in a boy's lifetime is not much —during the summer months at a camp near the seaside or in any other area the Minister might decide, would help us to have a nation with the high physical and cultural standards for which we were noted in the past. This is the only way we can prevent the teenage problems so common now.

I would ask the Minister to make scholarships available to young Army people who have proved themselves in the sporting arena so that they might be sent to universities. If this were done we might be in a position to bring many Olympic medals back to this country. We have not the up-to-date facilities that are necessary, but if the scholarships were made available to the young boys in the Army it would be a great encouragement and help to them and would bring recognition to our country. In the past we had people like Ronnie Delaney and the young Cusacks from Limerick who won scholarships and subsequently made a distinctive impact in national and international competitions.

Deputy Tunney mentioned the youth in St. Patrick's Institution. Any boy from 14 to 20 years is liable to get into some trouble. This may not be of his own making but may be due to the circumstances and the environment in which he lives. The youth have many temptations put in their way nowadays and it is understandable that they get into trouble. While I am not making the Army a refugium peccatorum completely, if a young man commits a misdemeanour for which he is punished this should not be held against him if he wants to enter or stay in the Army. I am advocating this only for first offenders. We should be honest and admit that when we were between the ages of 15 and 18 years we may have got into trouble ourselves; if that happened in our time, is it not obvious that the temptations are much greater now? I would ask the Minister to be more lenient with regard to the acceptance of those boys who have a first conviction. If a boy is rejected by the Army it is a mark against his character, it could be regarded as an endorsement on his living licence, and it should not be recorded against him. If he is anxious to change his way of life, if he takes the discipline of the Army, he should be given a chance. I would ask the Minister seriously to consider this matter.

Games on an inter-brigade basis are being encouraged but I should like to see Army teams competing in open competitions. In the football and hurling arena, the Army teams should take their place in junior and senior competitions. During the emergency we had open competitions and the Limerick brigade won the Munster senior rugby cup in competition with senior rugby teams. There is no reason why this cannot be done again for these sports, as well as for boxing and other sporting activities.

For many years I have asked for improvements in the Army Equitation School but unfortunately nothing was done. The school was a frustrated and a broken unit. In the past we had people like Dan Corry, Cyril Harty and others who won the Aga Khan Cup and who won world-wide fame. However, because of the scanty funds provided by the then Minister for Defence and the Department the school was run down. Sufficient money was not put at the disposal of the competitors. I know what it means to be a member of the Army Jumping Team and I know what happened at receptions which were given and which had to be returned when competitions took place. Having won world-wide fame our Army men found that they were unable to return the hospitality offered by other competing nations. They had to put their hands into their own pockets which were empty enough at the time.

People come from all over the world to take our best horses and they win the best international competitions with Irish-bred horses. This is a scandalous state of affairs. We have an Olympic jumper at the moment. I am sure the Minister will agree with me because he knows as much if not more about horse flesh as I do. I would say that in 1975 we will have a first-class international Olympic jumper. I am glad to say he is in the ownership of Deputy Haughey. "Abbeyville" is an excellent jumper. He was offered to the Army and the Army turned him down. There is no point in closing the stable door now because the horse is gone. If Deputy Haughey has any sense—and I do not underestimate him—he will hold on to "Abbeyville".

I can see that horse coming back from the Olympics in 1975 as a top notcher, provided the relationship between himself and his rider is allowed to continue. People sometimes laugh when you talk about horse sense but horse and rider must have a knowledge of each other's ways and personalities. When this relationship starts it should be allowed to continue. Recently I read in the national papers that there is a move to make our two great riders, Mr. Brennan and Mr. Hickey, turn professional. I see no reason for that.

The Minister knows that there must be a relationship between man and horse because he has hunted and he has lived with horses. You must know your horse and your horse must know you. It may take years to build up that relationship and to produce a first-class jumper. The same applies on the racecourse. Every jockey must know his horse and every horse must know his jockey. That contact must be kept alive. It would be tragic if those two men were forced to turn professional.

I want to see the School of Equitation going ahead. Whatever money is required must be made available so that these unfortunate people will not have to go to foreign countries practically penniless and living on shoestrings. That happened in the past. Many of them got into debt because of their devotion to the School of Equitation. The honour and glory they brought to this land brought financial ruin to themselves. That is one of the reasons why men are not anxious to join the School of Equitation.

I hope the Minister will take all these things into consideration in the future as he has been doing so excellently in the past. He has been attending to every detail. He has been present at every possible function. He should let it be seen that he is an Army man. I know he will take my suggestions to heart and that he will do whatever is within his power to do in the Department.

I do not want to intrude into the sphere of another Department but I want to make a suggestion to the Minister. It is impossible to ask an unarmed man to apprehend an armed man. Unfortunately that is happening at present. Gardaí are unarmed and they are asked to apprehend armed men. This is absolutely impossible. I would suggest, as a way out of this very delicate situation, that when a posse of five or six unarmed gardaí are sent out on this duty, with them there should be some Army men so that if anybody opens fire on them that fire can be returned and the unarmed men can be protected. I would ask the Minister to consider that in the present circumstances. Almost every week unarmed men are faced with armed men who are brutal, ruthless and soulless in their approach. They just pull the trigger and drop the unfortunate man. To avoid that, and also as a threat, an armed Army man should accompany the unarmed gardaí who are doing such an excellent job.

I should like to congratulate the Minister. I would be the first to attack him if I thought he was incompetent in any way and that he was not doing his duty. I am sorry to say I cannot do that. I would if I could. The Minister is doing an excellent job despite the firing that comes at him in a personal way from the Fianna Fáil benches. I know he is taking no notice of that because Fianna Fáil will only attack the people who annoy them, the people who are getting on with their jobs. We accept that. Anything that is not worth talking about is not worth anything. The fire has been directed at the Minister because he has done such an excellent job during the short time he has been Minister for Defence. Carry on with the good work.

Mr. Callanan

I will be very brief and I will not open fire on anybody. I do not indulge in mudslinging. I congratulate the Minister. I disagree with some of the things he has done. I believe he made mistakes but I have to endorse what Deputy Tunney said. I have a great regard for a man who does something and I have no regard for the man who sits down and lets his officials do the work for him. I admire a man who works at his job. The Minister is the boss. I wish to congratulate him for the work he is doing.

Some people sneer at the Army and ask what we want an Army for, that the country is too small for one. I was a member of the FCA during the emergency. I served as a private and later became a sergeant. I can assure people that whatever was likely to happen we were not foolish enough to think that a big power could not take us but they would certainly have a job to hold us. Everybody was trained in guerilla warfare. It would have been very hard for any power to come in here and stay in comfort. Anybody who looks down on our Army and says that we should not have it should realise that during the Emergency we had a very well trained Army.

Much of what I intended to say has been said by the two previous speakers. I agree with Deputy Coughlan in what he said about recruitment to and promotion in the Army. The Army is like any other large organisation. You can have a lot of theoretical training but practical experience is far better. We have examples of young boys passing examinations and going into the Army as cadets. I believe every young boy should serve first as a private. He should then be able to go right up through the ranks. I disagree with the system where a man can walk into an officer's rank in the Army. He should start on the floor because his practical experience will make him a better officer and he will understand what it is to be a private.

When I served with the FCA and I was on the barrack square I had to obey the officers but once I went off parade it did not matter to me if I met the Chief of Staff because we were all the same when we were not on duty. I do not believe that is the way in the Army at the present time. I am afraid authority is carried outside the barrack square. Deputy Tunney mentioned certain things which people in the Army have to do. I do not think they should have to do menial jobs for officers or anybody else. Young men in the Army should not be asked to do work which is humiliating to them.

Deputy Tunney and Deputy Coughlan mentioned the case of a young man doing something wrong and being told to go home. I would like to ask any Deputy in the House what he did between the ages of 14 and 19. I know I could not stand over everything I did during those years. I always felt I should get a second chance and if I misconducted myself the second time I had to take my punishment. The Minister should take a lenient view of young boys who go off the straight line the first time. I do not think there is anybody who can stand up and say that he was a good boy all through his youth. Those young people should be given a second chance.

We are very proud of the Irish speaking battalion at Renmore in County Galway. We have a national Army that is the showpiece of the country and I think there should be strong emphasis in it on the national language, our games and our culture. The Army should participate openly in all kinds of games. We have always been very proud of the Renmore garrison on the hurling and football fields. I do not think they are as much to the forefront as they used to be. It should be emphasised very strongly that we are very proud of our Army. Any country that does not have a language and a culture is not a country at all and does not deserve to have an Army.

I am glad to see the Minister is doing something about the Army Jumping Team. I mentioned last year that nothing annoyed me as much, being a member of a show society in the west of Ireland, as when we invited the Army Jumping Team to come along. They brought a bad team and bad horses. The Army Jumping Team is the showpiece of the Army and we do not like to hear people criticising the teams they send to some of those shows. We are only pulling down the prestige of the Army when badly trained horses are sent. I also want to pay tribute to the Army band.

We should be very proud of the Civil Defence. Its members give their time voluntarily. We do not know its value yet and I hope we never shall need to know but I believe that if the occasion arose these people would acquit themselves with distinction. It is very good work and I congratulate the members.

As a former FCA member, I would advise any young man to join it. As Deputy Coughlan said, compulsory army training might be a good thing but I do not think it is feasible. The FCA are comparatively well off now; in our days if you went on a field day you had a field day: you got a mug and you got Irish stew and you had to have it in the yard. Now—and thank God for it—when the FCA go out they are brought into a hotel and have the best of meals. That is as it should be. My experience of the FCA during the Emergency and at present is good. A man who goes away for training in the summer months comes back better disciplined and a better man and citizen. Army training is good. Anywhere I have seen the FCA on parade they were well disciplined and very impressive. They played a very important role during the Emergency and would do so again if the occasion arose, as a back-up to the Army.

We have many highly qualified engineers and other professional men in the Army. Are they fully occupied? I do not know if it is feasible but, for instance, would some of the engineers prefer if they could be of some assistance in the civilian side of life, in local authorities or industries during peace time? This is something I would ask the Minister to think about. There may be nothing in the idea.

I do not like long speeches and like to make my points briefly. The first time I spoke in the House was on the Defence Estimate last year and I commented then that I was disappointed that there were too many long speeches in the Dáil even though I was only there for a very short time. I still think people should try to say as much as possible in as few words as possible. I would like to ask the Minister to comment on this point in connection with old IRA men when he is replying: are old IRA men who are not old age pensioners but are drawing military service pensions entitled to free electricity and free television? Actually, an old IRA man asked me the other day if this was so. He would not qualify—because of his means— for an old age pension but he has an old IRA pension. Also, if an old IRA man, who is drawing a pension dies his wife continues to draw the pension but if he is only getting a special allowance, as far as I know, when he dies the allowance dies and the widow gets nothing. Is that correct?

Mr. Donegan

Yes.

Mr. Callanan

If there is a case where a person is entitled to a special allowance surely when he dies there is hardship on the widow. There are not many of them left and I would ask the Minister to consider continuing to pay the special allowance or giving the widow a special allowance.

The Army are very decent in providing firing parties to render the last military honours to deceased old IRA men but there is some regulation—I know the Minister himself has never let down anybody in this connection, but I do not see why the regulation should exist—that if the dead person is more than 25 miles from the barracks special permission must be obtained for a firing party to attend the funeral. That is an unreasonable regulation even though when special representations have been made they have never been turned down. I want that made clear. It is unfair that a man who happens to be within 25 miles of a barracks will be provided with a firing party without any trouble beyond notifying the barracks and verifying the facts, while there are many people residing over 25 miles away and I think it is necessary to get in touch with the Minister to be sure of a firing party. In cases where this was done I never heard of a refusal but I recommend that this regulation be abolished.

I think I have covered all my points in connection with this Estimate but I may add that since my time the Army uniform has improved very much. Our Army now has a bit of style about it. If the Army were involved in all types of sport and mixed more with the people this would be all to the good: the more they mix with the people the more they will win the people's respect. I would advise any young man who wishes to be properly trained and disciplined, if he cannot join the regular Army, to spend a couple of years in the FCA. Finally, I say to the Minister as a man who in my view may have made mistakes that I must admire a man who takes over a Department and says: "I am the man who is running this Department." I think the Minister is doing that.

Mr. Malone

In the past, the armed forces would remind one of the necessity at some time or other to get a doctor, a priest or a vet— they are only appreciated when they are needed. I am glad to see that our attitude towards the Army has changed and I hope it will never return because the need for an up-to-date Army, Navy and Air Force has become so obvious that it would be national suicide for any Minister, or the Department, to ignore the fact that the forces must have the equipment and encouragement necessary. The Army will only be as good as the Minister and the Department who preside over them.

In that connection I must sincerely congratulate the Minister on the magnificent work he has done since he took office. It is pleasing to note that he is continuing with this good work. I am sure that the Minister feels he is in charge of armed forces of which any Minister could be extremely proud. Those of us who saw the armed forces in action during Army Week realise the truth of my remarks.

I cannot ever recall having heard any adverse criticism of the Minister's predecessors but I have heard from people in the Defence Forces the height of praise for the present Minister and of the improvements he is making and is continuing to make to improve their lot. The success of the present and continuing recruiting campaign is indicative of the work he is doing and if he continues these improvements the recruiting campaign will no longer be necessary. The position will become much like that existing in the Garda Síochána where young men apply to enter rather than the Department having to go out and ask them to join.

At present young men are becoming aware that in joining the Army, Slua Muirí or the Air Corps they are embarking on a worthwhile career. They also realise that they will be taken care of from the time they join until they retire. However, there is still a lot of room for improvement. The educational facilities could be further improved. I accept that they are good but they could be better. Other speakers made the point of having seen officers drawn from the ranks. This is something we would all like to see and for this reason I would like to see the facilities for education being extended.

The Army school at Naas is an example of what can be done for young men and I hope the facilities available there can be extended to other areas. That school has turned out fully qualified young men who qualified in many sophisticated trades and for this I should like to pay a compliment to those responsible. We have also seen great improvement in the living quarters at many baracks but, again, there is room for a lot of improvement. The old type of dormitory, with a turf fire in the centre throwing out little heat, is still with us in many places. I should like to see improvements in that regard because when men go out on manoeuvres and sleep under canvas at night the least they are entitled to when they return to barracks is good accommodation.

In the course of time, and the dictates of human nature, young army men get married and it is then that they require housing. Unfortunately, the married quarters in most barracks are not the very best. I accept that improvements have been made and that they are continuing to be made. In this regard I should like to compliment the Minister on opening a scheme of houses in the Curragh for more than 50 men and their families last year. I should like to see such schemes in other areas. It is unfortunate that there are too many men who are overholders because many men, when they retire from the Army, cannot get housing accommodation. Something should be done to improve their lot and I feel sure a suitable scheme could be prepared by the Minister, and his colleague in Local Government. The introduction of such a scheme would leave more houses available for the serving soldiers and their families.

The overholder is in a very difficult position because while he is an over-holder he cannot draw his pension. It is a disgrace that while he is not drawing his pension the Minister for Finance is taking his whack out of him. One would expect that the accumulation of the pension, without deductions, would be the greatest encouragement and incentive to a man to put a deposit on a house outside. Most of these men are very anxious to provide houses for themselves but it is extremely difficult for them because local authorities will not always build them houses.

I should now like to deal with the question of disability pensions. In my view, it is disgraceful that a man who becomes disabled during service to the State has, in order to improve his pension if the disability becomes more severe, to prove the further degree of disability. The Minister should have a serious look at this. There is also the question of men leaving the Army through ill health. I know of a case where a man was told that he would receive an application form in due time to apply for a pension. That man went to England to work and when he returned and inquired about the pension he was told it was too late. This man had given good and faithful service; yet, because of the regulations, he found himself disqualified for a pension. To my mind there should be an independent board to inquire into matters like this. I am not saying that the men have no confidence in the existing pension boards but these boards are Department orientated; there is a straight line drawn beyond which a civil servant will not move. There should be some reference back to the Minister and he should have a final decision. Perhaps the Minister would give this careful and sympathetic attention as early as possible.

Deputy Callanan referred briefly to the Army Bands. No tribute here or anywhere else could be too great where this body of men is concerned. Each division has, of course, its own band. It is always a pleasure to hear these bands and those of us who had the opportunity of attending their jubilee concert in Ballsbridge last winter can have felt nothing but the greatest pride in having such an efficient and fine body of men giving so much pleasure and without any great recognition.

They are unfortunately handicapped because their chances of promotion are almost nil. There are, I think, a couple of corporals; the rest are all privates. It is irritating in the extreme for these men, who may have been years in a band, to see young fellows coming in getting promotion, passing them out while they remain put. The Minister should have a look at the situation to see if something could be done in the line of promoting them. The military police are all NCOs. Another irritation is the fact that these men cannot go into the NCOs mess. It is barred from them. I know lads in bands and they cannot have a drink with their fathers, who are also Army men, because they cannot go into the NCO mess to have a drink. Some form of recognition should be given to them in recompense for the great pleasure they give and they should have some status which would enable them to visit the NCOs mess.

Other speakers have dealt with the Army Equitation School. I compliment the Minister on his endeavours to make those in this school ambassadors once again for this country. That would bring glory to the school.

I have in the past on this Estimate spoken about the "Plains of Kildare" or, as they are generally called, the Curragh. This is under the jurisdiction of the Minister. The road through the Curragh leaves much to be desired. Most Deputies coming from the south have spoken about this road in anything but choice terms because of its condition. It is a traffic hazard. The Kildare County Council are blamed. The road is as good as the council are permitted to have it and it is as wide as they are allowed to have it. The surrounding land belongs to the Minister. If the road were improved and made a dual carriageway, or wide enough to carry three lane traffic, there would be an added hazard because of the sheep. The road, therefore, would have to be fenced and that is another problem. Those with grazing rights would have to be asked to surrender part of these rights. However, it is absolutely essential that something be done about this road and I would ask the Minister to consider the matter in conjunction with his colleague, the Minister for Local Government, and any other interests involved so that something will be done. The sooner the better.

I thank the Minister once more for his co-operation and for being so readily available at all times to all people. We owe a deep debt of gratitude to our Defence Forces. We are very proud of them and we hope that the improvements which have already taken place will be still further extended by the time we come to discuss this important Estimate next year. In the meantime we hope that the Department of Defence will remain a Department of Defence and not degenerate into a Department of offence.

Mr. Dowling

Crises certainly develop respect for our Defence Forces and increase the importance of those forces. In recent years a new importance has been given to them as a result of the call to duty in the Congo and other foreign parts, to say nothing of nearer home on the Border. I should like to be associated with the expressions of gratitude and the tributes paid by other Members here for the wonderful contribution made by the Defence Forces at home and abroad. They carry out their duties with dignity, restraint and understanding. They have been acolaimed by many people of many countries because of their discipline. Every effort made to perfect our Defence Forces or improve the conditions for those forces will have our full support.

This is an important Estimate and particularly so this year because of the new dimension added to our Defence Forces in recent years. Their role is only really now being understood. Those of us who have participated in debates here in the past on this Estimate are well aware of how few contributions were made by Members on this important Estimate. It is only since the Defence Forces assumed a role of importance that we have had a substantial debate. It is good to see so many Deputies participating and putting forward their views. Many points were covered and I should like to mention other points which merit comment.

The change by the Department in their attitude to the armed forces was necessary and desirable. From experience, I know their attitude over the years, the structure of the various sections of the Department and the horrible term "finance" to which inquiries were directed. This has been liberalised and rightly so. This change in attitude has done good and will bring about many changes in attitudes within and outside the forces.

We must continually examine the position of the soldier from recruitment to termination of service in order to ensure that we keep abreast of the current situation. I fully support the efforts of the Minister and the Government to attract more young people into service. I hope the recruitment campaign will achieve the aims of the Minister and the Department in ensuring that we have the required inflow. Every effort we can make to ensure that the campaign is a success will be made. I appeal to young people with an interest in the armed service to take this opportunity to join.

There are many problems for the serving soldier. The resettlement of ex-servicemen is an area which is neglected. When a man has given 21 years service, advice and technical training should be available so that he will not go on to the labour market at a disadvantage. At the moment many people leave the Army without any training whatsoever. They are at a disadvantage and end up as petrol pump attendants or at other menial jobs. That is not good enough for people who have devoted a lifetime to service in the Defence Forces. Therefore, when a man is nearing retirement from the service he should be trained to take his proper place in society and ensure that he will not start work in civilian life at the bottom of the ladder.

In the Army people can be diverted into dead-end jobs. They can be officers' orderlies, washers of napkins or do other menial jobs. Because they are good at that particular type of work they are left there and never advance. It is good to see that the Minister is bringing in civilian employees to do the jobs which are tying up Army personnel and so relieve them in order to participate in the true role of a soldier.

The Minister should ensure that there is an advisory service for the members of the Defence Forces. It may be that some people get advice but when a man is about to complete his service it is necessary and desirable that somebody advise him on his future. Somebody should explain to him that if he continues to live in married quarters without making the necessary provisions for the future, he would end up seeking accommodation. There should be a fund available to help with the rehousing of married men on severance from the Army. Some of them leaving have credits and are not as disadvantaged as their colleagues who have not made any provision for the future.

It is desirable and essential that there be a predischarge training tie-up with AnCO. These men are getting on in years so it is necessary that they do a pressurised course. This type of course is not available within the Army. Therefore, it is necessary to have assistance from an outside agency to ensure that the necessary training is available and the men need not start at the end of the ladder. The apprenticeship training schools have been praised and I should like to be associated with that. Most of these men will be too far advanced to receive training in those centres. The facilities there would not permit the training of older soldiers.

The apprenticeship training at Naas and Baldonnel is a very worthwhile service but it is far too small. Possibly, the extension of the apprenticeship schools to other areas would be of assistance. In the past pirates moved in and gave financial assistance to young men to buy themselves out of the service. They were then bonded men for a number of years. That day has gone but there are still poachers around who try to get cheap labour by helping young men buy themselves out. Action should be taken to ensure that this does not happen. The people who are trained in the Army training schools should repay to the State the cost of their training. It is reasonable to assume that if one accepts training that one will make some contribution in return.

On my visit to the Naas apprenticeship school I was impressed but I felt that the equipment used was outmoded and needed to be up-dated. I discussed the matter at that stage and was told that some equipment was ordered for two years and that the question of sanction for further equipment was one of the problems. In apprenticeship training the best possible equipment must be available and the purchase of such equipment cannot be put on the long finger. It is ridiculous that it cannot be purchased this year. If it is a necessity it must be purchased, whatever the cost, in order to give the best possible training to the apprentices who go to the school.

There is the system within the armed services whereby the Department of Finance gives approval to the purchase of certain items. There was at one stage a mad situation in which there was no flexibility in regard to the requirements of military barracks to whom it might be said: "You are entitled to a chair this year", and they would say: "We do not want a chair; we want a table". The answer was: "You are not getting the chair because you do not want it and you are not entitled to the table because you did not order it". There should be some flexibility. In Baldonnel and other barracks those best able to indicate what are the requirements in the present year are the personnel in charge who draw up the demands. These demands can change from day to day, but applications are made possibly years in advance for certain types of equipment. While that sanction is coming through other requirements are not sought, although in some cases they may be more necessary at a given moment. Requirements should be obtainable but not in excess of the allocation of money to which a particular barracks would be entitled. As I say, the personnel in charge in Baldonnel or any other barracks are the best judges of what is required. There was a situation in the cook-house or the dining-hall whereby a food exchange could take place with the suppliers provided the amount that was allocated was not exceeded. Beef could be exchanged for mutton or there could be an exchange of one commodity for another in order to give variety to the food. This should apply more generally throughout the service so that decisions could be made as to what is really required. In my days in the Army things which were not required were issued because they had to be issued on a particular day, while again material which was required could not be obtained because, according to the book, there was no entitlement to it.

The question of married quarters has been mentioned by a number of speakers. There are some new quarters which are certainly a credit to the Department but there are within barracks many married quarters which leave a lot to be desired. The day is long gone when there should be married quarters within the barracks. First of all, they are a risk and, secondly, they are outmoded. This might have been necessary during troubled periods to ensure that there was on tap the largest possible number of personnel available, maybe not in the lifetime of this Army but of other armies. Married quarters should be outside the barracks. There should be a tie-up between the local authority and the Department of Defence in regard to housing Army personnel. I do not see why the provision of married quarters should be a charge on the Defence Estimate. This is a question of housing people and this is the responsibility of the local authority. If this question was divorced from the Defence Estimate, then we could have another look at the whole situation in relation to housing Army personnel, the undesirability of evicting people or withholding a pension or other matters that have been mentioned by other speakers.

A situation can arise in which members of a soldier's family have married and he is left with his wife or one child and because he is unable to obtain local authority accommodation having given a lifetime of service to the nation, he ends up in married quarters. On the other hand, there is the young soldier with a wife who is seeking accommodation which he is unable to obtain, although it is rightly his because it is married quarters. This situation must be examined with courage and understanding. I fully sympathise with the Minister who has to tackle this thorny problem. There should be an understanding between the local authority and the Defence Forces in order to clear up the situation once and for all. I do not think any Minister for Defence would attempt to evict from married quarters a man who has given a lifetime of service but, at the same time, the Minister must have sympathy and consideration for the young soldier who feels he has been deprived of a home and who has to live in a flat in Rathmines, Ranelagh or some other place waiting for married quarters to become available. If we continue to build married quarters inside the barracks we are perpetuating that situation.

In any event, as has been pointed out there are some defective married quarters. Improvements have been made to married quarters throughout many barracks but there are many married quarters in the Curragh and elsewhere which are not capable of improvement. That type of accommodation is not suitable to modern requirements and it would be regarded as unfit for human habitation by some local authorities and medical officers. If one examines the married quarters in MacDonagh's Barracks at the Curragh one can realise the difficulties experienced by the people living there. There should be a movement from in-barracks accommodation. It is in the interests of the Minister for Defence to ensure that these families are housed adequately but this should be done by another authority. A Minister for Defence should not have to concern himself about housing matters. Housing is a function of one authority. If it is divided among several authorities the result will be confusion.

The question of the disposal of Army barracks has been mentioned in many debates in this House. Quite a number of barracks in the city could be disposed of and, in fact, some are ineffective from the military point of view. Military barracks should not be in a built-up area, certainly not in the heart of the city. This may have been all right at one stage but where it is necessary to move Army personnel quickly the question of traffic jams and the lack of a proper road network from barracks to outlying areas may cause many difficulties.

In his statement the Minister mentioned Monaghan and Dundalk in connection with new military posts. The location of such posts is a matter for military personnel and I am not competent to say whether Monaghan is suitable. There has been criticism from some, while others have supported the idea. If a military post is built adjacent to the Border it might be taken as an indication of an intention to maintain the Border by a military force. It would also indicate that the maintenance of the Border by a military force is a permanent situation, rather than a temporary one as we hope it will be. The matter of the location of the posts must be given technical consideration from competent people. Some of the factors that must be taken into account are unknown to the public.

The men who join the Army come from good homes and they should have the best type of accommodation. Deputy Coughlan and some other speakers suggested that skinheads and bottle-throwers should be conscripted and given military training. The Army should not be a dumping ground for any type of criminal. In the past some district justices told young men that if they joined the Army they would be let off. This was a serious reflection on the Army.

Mr. Kelly

I agree with the Deputy. It was quite disgraceful at the time.

Mr. Dowling

We want to enhance the reputation of the Army and such references in the past did not help the various Ministers who wanted to attract young people into the Army. I am glad that a high standard is required. The higher the standard the better will be the individuals who are attracted into the Army. When standards are set they must be maintained. The Minister should ensure that the Army will not become a dumping ground for criminals as was suggested in some of the speeches made here. If we maintain the high standards, we will have an Army of which we can be proud. The comments that were made here by some speakers will do more harm than good. I am sure the Minister will clarify the situation; people of good character may be given every opportunity to improve their lot.

It is heartening to read of the educational opportunities being made available to the younger personnel in the Army. Many of them can attend vocational schools, colleges and universities. There is a distinction between training for the young soldier and for the older man. They are two different matters and they will have to get separate consideration.

I welcome the improvements that have taken place in the Air Corps and the Naval Services. The latter was the Cinderella service for a considerable period and it had many problems in relation to staff. It may not have been so attractive to young people in the past but I am glad that the situation has improved and more people are entering the service. If additional opportunities are available to personnel in the Naval Service or the Air Corps, I am quite positive that we will pick up many young people who would be only too happy to develop themselves and maintain the services.

I am glad to see that armoured personnel carriers are being produced at home. I raised this matter on many occasions in the past. It is desirable that every sector of the Public Service should avail of Irish firms for their needs and requirements. There are difficulties in relation to equipment for the armed services. We must all support the chance which was taken in the production of armoured personnel carriers and congratulate the people responsible for the production at home of equipment of this nature.

If we are successful, we might well be exporting personnel carriers in the future and this might develop to the advantage of employment. Personnel could be trained in the workshops prior to their departure from the Army. Irish firms must be given this opportunity and I am positive that Irish workers, Irish technicians and Irish designers will measure up to the demands made upon them, and that what they produce will be as good as if not better than anything which can be purchased abroad. I wish the Minister and the Department the best of luck in their approach to this matter.

The Army Jumping Team was mentioned by a number of speakers. I am glad to see that there is a change in attitude. At one stage you would not know whether to shoot the horse or the rider. Now there is an improvement. I hope we will have the success which the Minister anticipates with the improvement in the standard of animals purchased by the Equitation School.

Parity of pensions is fairly involved. I hope the Minister will keep it in the forefront of his mind so that there will be no loss involved to those who are entitled to Army pensions. The Minister has made a statement and other people have commented upon it so there is no point in dwelling on it.

What has struck me and many other people is the lack of Army personnel in uniform in our cities and towns. Most people seem to prefer to be in civilian attire. That is not the best way to attract personnel into the services. At one stage if you walked down O'Connell Street you met military policemen and many people in uniform. This in itself is part of a recruitment campaign. It is rather peculiar that you seldom see a person in uniform nowadays. There has been an improvement in the uniforms but there is still room for improvement.

On other occasions I mentioned the question of a uniform allowance. This has been successful in some armies, as distinct from getting a uniform according to the book. It might be cheaper for the Department to provide a uniform allowance. In the Army when you felt that you would be getting something soon you allowed your equipment to run down. Where a uniform allowance has been given in other armies it has been proved that the soldiers desired to maintain their uniforms at the highest possible level. The uniform is fashioned to the soldier's requirements and it is never allowed to become shabby. A uniform which is issued usually does not fit the soldier properly and has to be tailored to suit his requirements.

The Army band was mentioned but there are many other important people throughout the services like nurses, doctors and medical orderlies, people who perform a very important and effective function in the Defence Forces. They are often forgotten. They are mentioned seldom but they are carrying out very important duties. There are many people behind the scenes who are doing important work, be they headquarter staff, or civil servants, or other advisers to the Minister and the Department. The medical orderly does a most important job. Efficiency in those areas is as important as efficiency in the band and in other sectors. Everybody is entitled to be congratulated on the work he is doing.

I am glad to see that people have been relieved of fatigue duties. It seemed to some of the older officers to be a necessity that people should do menial jobs. Fatigue duties were often thought up to chastise a person or cause him bother. In fact, it had the reverse effect. While many of the menial jobs have been got rid of, nevertheless, the mentality in relation to them still exists. I hope there will be no thinking up of a situation that would downgrade our men. Many of the duties they were given on the basis of fatigue duty had the effect of downgrading rather than elevating these young men. It is desirable that we elevate them to a position that they will realise that they are true and real soldiers. They should be put on proper duties and not fatigue, or some of the duties I have seen young men perform.

I wish the Minister success and I should like to ask him to carry out any improvements necessary to attract personnel into the force. This is a very important Department and the importance of the Army is never realised until we have a period of tension or crisis or a period when people's lives are at stake. The lives of the members of the Defence Forces are at stake at all times and when we have men prepared to put their lives at stake they deserve our respect. They should be given every assistance to ensure that their period of service will be marked in a very effective way. They should be assisted so that when they return to civilian life they are in possession of something by way of educational qualifications or a trade. When men retire from the Army and enter the labour market they should be so equipped that they do not have to start at the bottom rung of the ladder.

Mr. Hegarty

I should like to join with the other speakers in complimenting the Minister and his Department on the great strides forward. The Minister's performance has been outstanding during his short period in office. He is held in the highest regard by the personnel of the armed forces. I have and some association with personnel of the Naval Service and of the Army in Fermoy and I am aware that they hold our Minister in the highest esteem for his very human approach to individuals. They are loud in their praises of the Minister's efforts to better conditions.

I am pleased to see that the Minister's recruiting campaign has been so successful. There are many counter attractions to young people but, nevertheless, the recruiting drive initiated by our Minister has proved highly successful. Army life entails a lot of self-sacrifice and self-discipline and it is possible that this is the reason such a life appeals to our youth. I should like the Minister to elaborate on the ways and means he feels public representatives could assist him in this drive.

I am glad to note that all ranks have now better pay and conditions and I can tell the Minister that there is no crib on this score. I welcome the extra money given to soldiers on Border duty and to those who are prepared to work longer hours. This is only right and just. It is good to know that the morale of our forces is very high in spite of the amount of duty they have to do. This is indicative of the confidence they have in a Minister who has shown such an interest in them. I welcome the work being done in the field of education for Army personnel. Every opportunity should be given to the young soldiers to continue their education and acquire new skills. While I accept that this is being done there is some room for improvement. It is heartening to see men reaching officer status from the ranks and it is usual that such men turn out to be very good officers.

It is good to see more money being spent on gymnasium facilities for the Army. Exercise is very necessary for people in all walks of life but it is of great importance that our soldiers are in the peak of physical fitness. To see well dressed soldiers walking our streets is a wonderful sight. It is a great asset to the recruiting campaign. Our Army personnel who are on UN duty have a proud and distinguished record, one which they are continuing to uphold and they are deserving of our compliments for their efforts to keep peace in other countries.

I should like to compliment the Minister on the bold step he took in purchasing some of the best jumpers in the world for the Army Equitation School. The Minister did this in an effort to regain the proud place we held in international show jumping. It was a mistake to let that reputation run down but now we have an opportunity of raising the Irish flag again.

I should now like to deal with the distinguished service of those in the FCA. I should like to see an improvement in the type of uniform worn. I do not think our civilian population appreciate fully the work of the FCA. These young men do a great service to our country in a quiet, unobtrusive way. They are doing an excellent job and are getting very little credit for it. I welcome the move to give better gratuities and pay to those in the FCA when they are on duty because they are involved in the protection of vital institutions.

The Civil Defence is another very useful and necessary service. The service is very well organised throughout the country with young men and women learning how to go about rescuing people and to deal with fires. They are working in harmony with the Red Cross, the St. John Ambulance Brigade and the Knights of Malta.

I was glad to hear that we are to build our own Army personnel carriers. We have had an inferiority complex about ourselves when it comes to constructing such things and for this reason I am glad that we have undertaken the erection of these carriers. I feel sure it will be only the beginning of many such strides forward in this field.

On the question of the helicopter rescue service, I feel that in future we should look more towards the twin engine type helicopter for use in this very difficult and dangerous work. I have seen helicopters in operation elsewhere and it is my view that the twin engined helicopter is better equipped for rescue work in storms at sea. Twin engined helicopters would be much safer.

I was pleased to hear we are to have new married quarters erected. Previous speakers mentioned married quarters being located where possible outside the precincts of the barracks. In many instances it is a good idea. We should do more about married quarters for junior officers as I have had complaints in that connection.

Many of my constituents are fishermen and, living as I do near Haulbowline which is the headquarters of our Naval Service, I am glad to find that we have a new ship in the offing—not before time. I have seen what could only be described as invasions of massive fleets of foreign trawlers pounding through our waters and literally, while you would be saying "Jack Robinson" they would be gone. This is what we are up against. They come from all over Europe invading our very valuable fishing grounds and I am very pleased that the Minister is doing something about it. Much more must be done. We are an island and our fisheries are now about to be developed as they should be developed. Young people are spending a good deal of money on expensive trawlers and in a short time I think we shall be able to make real money out of fishing. These people need the protection of our Naval Service.

I already suggested, and I repeat it, that we should copy some of the other nations in procuring smaller vessels, in fact, a vessel identical with the fishing vessel in every respect. These vessels could be placed among the fishing fleets and there would be nothing wrong with young cadets taking part in a fishing exercise as a subterfuge. These vessels suitably disposed around our coasts would prove to be a real deterrent. An invading trawler with nets down is in trouble; it cannot get quickly away and an naval boat has the advantage. Also, this type of vessel would not be very expensive. They are relatively cheap to build and would give a welcome opportunity to our young naval ratings and cadets and Naval Service personnel generally to spend more time at sea. They would have seafaring experience in all weathers and this is what they want. I hope the new ship will be built in our own dockyard. It is important that we should keep up the good work we have begun in regard to Army vehicles and build this and all future ships for the Naval Service and the Slua Muirí at home. We have all the facilities and the work being done there is first class.

I suggested previously also that Cork harbour, being the finest in Europe, should be a showpiece and perhaps in the not-too-distant future we could consider taking over Spike Island which is at present accommodating only a few cattle, for the Naval Service for development and show visitors that we have a Naval Service and Defence Forces worthy of a nation.

Finally, I should like to compliment the Minister and his Department on their great work. In the short time the Minister has been in office he has done a fantastic job and I wish him well. He has a very difficult task because of the troubled times we are in and he is handling it admirably. He is proving to be a man of the greatest ability and integrity and he has won the hearts of the Army and naval personnel. He has met them and is known to them and I should like to convey to him their appreciation of what he is doing for them. In regard to Cobh and Haulbowline I have first-hand information on how they appreciate what the Minister is doing and they also wish him well.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach (Mr. Kelly)

I want to intervene briefly in this debate not for the purpose of repeating the compliments to the Minister and the services for which he is responsible—with which I agree —nor for the purpose of echoing the constructive suggestions that have come from both sides—with which I also agree for the most part—but to say something about the morale of the armed forces and the duty which rests on responsible people inside and outside the media to do or say nothing which could damage that morale.

The morale of any individual or group is related to the purpose to which the individual or group is being put. The purpose of the armed forces of this State is not maintenance of a foreign empire. In these days it is scarcely possible to argue that their purpose is to provide 100 per cent security against foreign aggression. No State, even a State which is a good deal more populous and more materially wealthy than ours, is today in a position where it can guarantee to repel invaders from its frontiers without the help of an alliance. Looking facts in the face the role of our Army, as long as we do not enter a military alliance with other countries, must be seen in a different way; it must be seen as a different role and it would be less than frank not to acknowledge that the reason why it is getting increased attention is because of the very important task that has fallen on it in regard to supporting the State and State institutions and in particular supporting the largely unarmed force of the Garda Síochána in their Border duties. That is why we have a military presence on the Border far beyond anything known six or eight years ago. That is why the Army is now at a strength greater than anything known since the demobilisation after the second World War. Incidentally, it is the reason why the Minister and his Department have had to commit substantial sums of State money to the provision of permanent barrack accommodation in three locations along the Border. It is not in any sense with the intention of signalising the permanence or solidity of the Border as Deputy Dowling seems to apprehend but is because the present arrangements, as the Minister has repeatedly told the House, are inconvenient from the security point of view and carry with that a degree of personal inconvenience for the men concerned. The presence of the Army on the Border, therefore, is related to the job which this State must face up to and discharge, namely, preserving its own institutions and preserving decent relations with its neighbours whatever political differences of a long-term kind may divide it from its neighbours. I say that nothing should be done by anybody or written in any paper which would tend to reduce that morale and, above all, nothing should be done, said or written by a responsible citizen, whether he stands over his own name or hides in the anonymity of an editorial column, to suggest that the presence of the Army in that strength on the Border is in some way spurious, illegitimate or in some way deserves less than the wholehearted assent of the people of this State.

The people of this State have only one organ which is lawfully entitled to decide issues of peace and war and that is the Dáil. That is laid down in the Constitution. Were it otherwise we would scarcely deserve the name State at all. The people of this State by their elected representatives have confided to this House the power to make decisions in regard to peace and war. It follows from that, as a very simple piece of logic, not in my view susceptible to anything except dishonest disagreement, that the only body entitled to authorise the use of violence for national ends is this House and that all other persons are not entitled, in the smallest particular, to use the smallest degree of violence in pursuit of political ends, sincerely though they may believe in them.

It is in order to defend that principle that the Army exists along the Border and is required to carry out the very exacting tasks it has been carrying out over the last year and to which I may say disappointingly little publicity was given in the Northern Press. The Minister in his opening speech gave details of the very many thousand occasions on which the Army has had to furnish parties to back up the civil police in Border duties. I was sorry to observe that the Belfast newspapers, which I take in my office every day, and one of them in particular, disgracefully unfair to this State, did not take the trouble to read the Minister's speech and reproduce these figures. Of course, those figures would have entirely contradicted the belief which is a received doctrine among the extreme loyalist wing represented by the Newsletter that we in this part of the country do not care what happens on the Border and we do not care whether Irishmen are murdered, some of them murdered in conditions of inhuman savagery.

That is the Army's involvement on the Border and it is an involvement which should have the assent and the wholehearted support of every democratically minded citizen here. That goes, as I say, for those who are both willing to speak their views over their own names and those who can slip their views through in the form of an editorial article. It is in the light of the principle I have just tried to enunciate that I want the House to consider an editorial published on the 3rd May, the day after this debate opened, in The Irish Press. The editorial in other respects is unexceptional. It contains in other respects very laudable sentiments. I should say, in fairness to The Irish Press, that a week later an excellent editorial entitled “The Mini Sunningdale” appeared, which seemed to show that The Irish Press, which is an organ of influence, was behind the efforts of people of different political persuasions in the North of Ireland to settle their differences peacefully and try to work together.

What then are we to make of the editorial printed the day after this debate opened which contained the following paragraph?

The build-up along the Border has put a heavy strain on resources, despite the valuable aid of the FCA. Indeed, it is possible, that were it not for the constant whining of Mr. Faulkner and his Unionist colleagues, this massive build-up along the Border would hardly have been attempted. In any case it is as well that there is such a presence lest the dreaded "doomsday" situation should ever arise.

I am not trying to make a meal of this. I recognise that a journalist, a leader writer in particular, is working against the clock. I do not expect that he should be called to account for every word or comma that finds its way into what he writes. I entirely accept that inadvertently he may produce an impression other than that at the bottom of his mind. He may be tired, he may be in a hurry and so forth but politicians suffer from these pressures, too, some of them, in fact, to a greater extent. There is no pardon for them if an unfortunate expression escapes their lips. There is no forgiveness for a Minister, a Deputy or a front bench Opposition spokesman if in the heat of the moment he says something which is taken by his opponents to reveal a point of view which in a more sober moment he would not choose to defend.

Although I have understanding for the difficulties of people in the media, naturally, as I hope they have understanding for our difficulties, it is only fair to draw the attention of the House to a paragraph, which whatever the intention behind it, to me has the effect, and I am sorry to say might be interpreted by many people as having the deliberate effect, of weakening the morale of people in the Defence Forces who find themselves committed to this difficult and disagreeable duty. It has always been the prime weapon of any kind of bully that he tries to associate those who want to control him with an outside influence, that he tries to suggest that the people who are trying to put down the bully are doing the job of the common enemy, of the foreigner.

That has always been the technique in this country and in every other country. Every Irishman, like every other kind of person, is sensitive to the possible criticism that in doing his country's job he is collaborating with somebody else for whom he has no particular responsibility. Every Irish person, and in particular every Irish soldier, must be sensitive to that kind of suggestion. That is why a particularly heavy duty lies on responsible people not to make or to imply any such suggestions. That is why I am outraged by reading in The Irish Press, which, although not the official organ of the Opposition party is, as I need hardly tell the House, very strongly identified with it and is virtually controlled by a respected Member of this House who is an Opposition Deputy. That is why I am outraged when I find that the presence of our Army along the Border is implicity attributed to what is described as “whining” by Mr. Faulkner.

My judgment, for what it is worth, is that Mr. Faulkner is the most exposed politician on this island and that on his political fate and those of his friends depends a very great deal and to describe him as a man who is whining, when all he is seeking to do is to make sure we pull our weight in regard to repressing savagery, is grossly irresponsible, damaging and injurious to the morale of the men who have to do the dirty work along the Border. There is also a concealed suggestion there that were it not for Mr. Faulkner we would not bother our heads to guard the Border or do our best to make sure that it was not used as an escape route for people who set off land mines, ambush patrols, fire at police stations or commit simple murder on the Border, as has been done over the last few months and years.

I repudiate that suggestion. This State has an obligation to maintain humanity and decency and if there was never a Mr. Faulkner, and there never was a North of Ireland, that duty still would have rested on it. I resent the suggestion, on behalf of the Army, that one of the contributory reasons for their presence along the Border is anything which could be described as whining by Mr. Faulkner. I resent and repudiate that. I have already said that I accept it may have been written in a moment of inadvertence. If so, an apology will be certainly gracefully received by anybody who feels about this the way I do.

It is a serious thing to write and I would like Members of the House to put themselves in the position of a young officer, a soldier or a noncommissioned officer serving along the Border whose daily reading is The Irish Press. He takes up this paper, after, perhaps, coming off a stern spell of tough and disagreeable duty in dirty weather and he reads here in his daily gospel that the reason for his presence up there in some inhospitable hamlet or on some by-road is “the whining of Mr. Faulkner”. What does that do for his morale? Is he not inclined in his heart of hearts to doubt the value of what he is doing? If he is sensitive in any way to the suggestion that he is doing the enemy's work is he not inclined to doubt the value of what he is doing and the wisdom of those who sent him up there?

In fairness to the Opposition, I believe that most of the Opposition would have been in favour, had they been still in Government, of maintaining a presence on the Border of the same kind and would have tried to build up that presence in the same way as our Minister has done. Could anything be more embarrassing or more damaging to the morale of that young officer or to his determination to do his job well, loyally and faithfully, than to read in the paper, from which, perhaps, for reasons of family loyalty to Fianna Fáil or perhaps because it happens to be a good paper— and, of course, it is a good paper in many ways—he tends to take his views, that his presence is being imputed to "the whining of Mr. Faulkner"?

The following sentence is the one to which I want to advert briefly. It is also a deadly sentence, though of quite a different kind. It is the sentence that says it is as well that we should have such a presence up there in case the British doomsday situation should ever arise. That doomsday situation expression was pioneered, I think, in Irish politics by Deputy James Gibbons when he was Minister for Defence. I have never criticised the last Government for being in a state of severe distress, anxiety and, perhaps, even disarray with the events of August, 1969. I think any Government—we too—would have been under severe pressure when the Catholic population of Belfast looked like being on the point of being massacred. We would have been under very severe pressure of exactly the same kind. We might not have yielded to it in the same way, but I do not fault, and I never have faulted the other side for a reaction to a situation of which they had had no experience.

That phrase, the doomsday phrase, was used deliberately—I am not criticising Deputy Gibbons for using it; he was Minister for Defence—to mean a situation in which, even as a gesture of despair, the soldiers of this State might have to cross the Border in order to rescue the people under attack on the far side. No one has forgotten that was the context in which that phrase was used. Five years later that whole situation has been utterly transformed by a series of different factors, chief among which has been the emergence of the IRA in a form that was then unknown, and we find this phrase being used again of a young officer or a young soldier, who takes The Irish Press while stuck in some makeshift billet in Belturbet or Cootehill, and finds on reading that paper that his presence there is dictated by “the whining of Mr. Faulkner” and that, by being up there, he may have a chance to cross the Border and take a whack at them.

If that piece of journalism, and this is the fourth time I am saying this, was the result of inadvertence or fatigue, and we are all victims of these things, no more need be said about it. But I consider that paragraph a damnable paragraph to one, I hope, which is not representative of the feelings of the Opposition party, most of whom are decent, patriotic and responsible people.

This was my sole purpose in intervening in this debate. I hope I will not be taken again as having attacked the Press. They are at full liberty to speak about me as I have spoken about them, and I have no doubt they will in their own good time.

Mr. Moore

At the outset I should like to say that the most fundamental need of all humans, irrespective of occupation, is proper housing. The housing of Army personnel, particularly in married quarters, leaves much to be desired. The housing of these people should have a very high priority. In Cathal Brugha Barracks some months ago someone decided to have the flats rewired. Some of the work was done but the job has not yet been completed and those living in these flats-are handicapped because they lack the basic essential of proper lighting. I would ask the Minister to remind the appropriate section of his Department that this work must be completed without delay.

I am sure the Minister will have the goodwill of everybody if he devotes a great deal of his time to the housing problems of Army personnel. I am sure he is aware of the shortage. Flats built in Victorian days should be demolished and proper modern flats should replace them. Where possible new houses should be erected. One has only to walk around the perimeter of our barracks to see the unsuitable accommodation for men and NCOs. These establishments were built when horses got priority over men. We should start from scratch now and ensure we do everything possible to make Army personnel as contented as possible by providing that personnel with proper housing accommodation.

There is then, the problem of over-holding. When a man finishes his term in the Army he finds it impossible to get housing accommodation outside. The Minister, in conjunction with his colleague, the Minister for Local Government and the relevant local authorities, should consult together to ensure that these men will have some guarantees of proper housing accommodation when they retire from the Army. It should not be a makeshift thing but a definite policy of the Department to ensure that a man leaving the Defence Forces having served his term would be offered proper housing. That is just one aspect of the Army problem today, when the Army are being called upon to perform more duties than ever before; they stretch now from the Border areas to the Middle East.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.