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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Jul 1974

Vol. 274 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 28: Office of the Minister for Education.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the period commencing on the 1st day of April, 1974, and ending on the 31st day of December, 1974, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education (including Institutions of Science and Art), for certain miscellaneous educational and cultural services and for payment of sundry grants-in-aid.

The proposals for which the Supplementary Estimate is being introduced are non-controversial and will not, I expect, lead to a lengthy discussion. Dáil Éireann is not being asked to vote additional funds in respect of these proposals. There are three subheads involved as follows: (i) National Library, Subhead E.4— Development Schemes—£10,000; (ii) National Museum, Subhead F.4— Development schemes—£10,000, (iii) Subhead B.10—European Institute, Florence—£10.

It was considered necessary to open the two new subheads E.4 and F.4 as it was felt that it would not be appropriate to make payments from the existing subheads E.1 and F.1 for the charges to arise in respect of certain new developments now proposed. The existing subheads relate to specific purposes—"Purchase of Books et cetera” in the case of the National Library and “Purchase of Specimens” in the case of the National Museum and, furthermore, the subheads are designated as Grants-in-Aid. The original provision made in each of these subheads is, accordingly, being reduced by £10,000, so that the opening of the new subheads E.4 and F.4 represents no additional charge on the Vote.

The developments for which provision is being made in the new subheads E.4 and F.4, relate to the organisation on a trial basis of an educational service the purpose of which is to promote interest in the National Library and the National Museum more widely, to encourage the establishment of local centres in which information concerning the collections available in both institutions would be readily available and in which exhibitions of Library and Museum material of educational interest could be arranged from time to time. It is considered that a sum of £20,000, divided equally between the two institutions, will be sufficient for the period to the 31st December, 1974. Provision is accordingly being made for payments not exceeding £10,000 during this period from each of the two new subheads being proposed.

A new subhead B.10 for a token provision of £10 is being opened in connection with our assession to the convention setting up the European University Institute at Florence. The original six members of the European Community drew up the Convention formally establishing the Institute prior to the accession of the new member States. Three of these six original members—France, Italy and Luxembourg—have formally ratified the convention and it is anticipated the other three will do so shortly. In fact the Ministers of Education at their June meeting in Luxembourg "noted with satisfaction that the three ratifications still pending were about to be made". I now understand informally that ratification procedures are completed in Germany and the Netherlands but not yet in Belgium.

The Irish Government have authorised the appropriate steps to be taken in connection with Ireland's accession to the convention. It is intended that the Instrument of Accession should be executed as soon as formal ratification of the convention has been made by all six original members. In this connection Deputies are aware that the Government made on 20th June, 1974 an order entitled European University Institute (Designation of Organisation and Immunities of Organistation and its Officers and Servants) Order, 1974, and that the order has been laid before each House of the Oireachtas.

The institute will have four Departments, History and Civilisation, Economics, Law, Political and Social Science.

It is envisaged that the institute will function from October, 1974, and that it will cater for 50-80 post graduate students, perhaps from 1975, and for 400-500 eventually.

A preparatory Committee, on which my Department and the Higher Education Authority are represented, has been meeting since 1972 to determine the budget, conditions of service for staff scholarships et cetera. Dr. Max Kohnstamm, Netherlands, has been appointed President provisionally and Dr. M. Buzzonetti, Italy the provisional Secretary General.

The selection of the first members of the institute's staff is at present being made by the provisional Academic Committee. There are many applications for these posts including a number from Ireland.

The financial arrangements for the institute provide that it will have a separate budget, financed by contributions from the member States. Ireland's contribution will amount to 0.62 per cent of the total budget. It has not yet been decided what will be the amount of the budget for the first year of the Institute's operation.

A draft budget which was under consideration estimated possible expenditure at £1.4 million sterling in a full year of which Ireland would be expected to contribute about £8,800. It is not now anticipated that expenditure would be of this order in the first year. Until arrangements for ratification and for staff recruitment are farther advanced it is not possible to say what amount would be required. For this reason only a token estimate is being presented at this stage.

It is anticipated that there will be sufficient savings on other subheads of the Vote to meet the required charge. The Government of the Italian Republic have agreed to provide free of charge land and buildings for the Institute initially at Badia Fiesolana and later on a permanent site at Villa Tolomei, Florence.

Each member State will have two representatives on the High Council of the Institute. It is envisaged that these representatives would be at official level. The High Council is expected to hold its first meeting as soon as the six original States have ratified the convention and the three new States have deposited their instruments of accession in Rome.

The Minister assured us that no additional funds are being asked for, that there is merely a switching around of funds under new subheads. It is my privilege to welcome any educational initiative in connection with the National Library and the National Museum. I should have thought though that there would be additional funds available for the development of an educational service. I know that museums and libraries in other countries have been engaged in setting up historical pacts and various programmes of slides, illustrations and so on. All this kind of thing costs money and I should have thought that some additional funds would have been made available for a new development like this. The Minister has not dealt with the National Library in general. I presume we will have an opportunity on some later date so to do. Nor has he dealt with the National Museum. He has simply outlined this new departure, the provision of an educational service to promote interest in the National Library and in the National Museum.

The establishment of local centres is a good idea. Frankly, I cannot see how the costs can be kept down if this is to be done on an adequate basis in all the suitable sites that off-hand and without having to study the thing in detail occur to me. I suggest that the centres should be based on towns and villages where the people have shown an interest in archaeology in the case of the museum and in the development of the library in the local area. I know that many towns and cities have been doing trojan work in this regard. There are many voluntary organisations involved in development of museums, local archaeology and the local library and even local arts councils. I am sure that if it was a matter of suggesting to these areas to apply to have a centre established for these purposes there would be a large number of applications. For this reason I cannot see the total sum of £10,000 for the Library and £10,000 for the Museum being adequate for the purpose at all. I just wonder whether there will be an attachment of £10,000 to specific museum projects or projects connected with archaeology or museum exhibits and £10,000 confined to the Library side of the scheme.

The token estimate for £10 for the new University Institute at Florence is welcome also. The development of this institute, a purely European institute, is awaited by people who are interested in the development of Europe as a community with some impatience. I myself on a number of occasions in making contributions in the House have decried the fact that the emphasis in the Community has been, and that was natural to begin with anyway, on the economic aspect, to the almost total exclusion of the educational and cultural aspects of the European Community.

I put a question to the Minister in the recent past about this University institute and I got most of the information which the Minister now gives in his speech in reply to that question. The Minister did not mention if the two other countries that are new members with ourselves, Britain and Denmark, had taken any steps to ratify the instrument of accession. I presume they will do so. One could be accused of a lack of logic if on the one hand one said that we were desirous of the development of a community dimension in educational and agricultural matters and on the other hand began to look quickly to see what we could get out of it. I suppose a little intelligent self-interest helps to keep idealism with its feet on the ground.

I am glad to see that there have been applications from this country for positions on the staff. During the past year, when we discussed the EEC report, I called for a different kind of institute but this particular one, I am sure, will not be frozen in its format or its structure. I am sure if the development at post-graduate level is successful—that seems to be the only thing envisaged here—there is no reason why Florence should not house an enlarged institute dealing with under-graduate and even pre-university themes and courses.

I see in the Minister's speech that 0.62 per cent of the total budget seems to be the amount assessed on Ireland. I am sure as the institute develops the amount to be expanded will increase and I am also sure this House will examine carefully how this money is spent. As I mentioned already it is no harm to look on it, not merely in the context of a developing European educational dimension, but also in the context of how we are faring out of the institute as well.

When the Minister is replying I would like him to state out of what funds the total contribution until the 31st December will be made. I see in his brief that the draft budget was estimated at £1.4 million sterling in a full year and Ireland would be expected to pay about £8,800. Is that sum to be paid this year for the period up to the 31st December or is it only when the institute is in full sail that that money will have to be paid? I know in this country at the moment there are many places crying out for extra expenditure and there is a feeling that there is a kind of vacuum, that the captain is not in charge of his ship and directing it with the confidence that prevailed for a number of years in many aspects. I will not widen the theme of the debate but I hope the Minister's colleagues in Government are prepared to afford him money for many projects which are crying out at the moment for development. The dental hospital, the higher technological colleges, the question of the university merger, the development of the community schools, which seems to have been frozen, are all crying out for money, so I wonder how he will screw out of his colleagues money for the new institute in Florence.

I am always a little sceptical when somebody says it is anticipated that there will be sufficient saving on other subheads in any Vote to meet the required charge. The only time you have any saving under subheads is when the people who are responsible for that money are asleep and allow the financial year to go by without making sure it is spent.

The Italian Republic deserve the gratitude of all member states for providing the institute with a temporary home and also in providing the new site. How much of the expenditure on the new building, when they come to erect it, will be undertaken by the Italian Republic? Will it be a joint effort as soon as building starts? Will we have financial responsibilities in the actual construction of the institute when it comes to its permanent site at the Villa Tolomei?

The Minister also stated that two representatives on the High Council of the Institute will be provided by each member State. Who will appoint these representatives? Will they be Government appointees? Will a certain number of people be recommended to the institute from a country and will the council be free to choose them? Will two representatives be appointed by the Government or will they be appointed by the university colleges in Ireland? I presume when the constitution is worked out their term of office will be specified.

The Minister said the new High Council is expected to hold its first meeting as soon as the six original states have ratified the convention and the three new states have deposited their instruments of accession in Rome. Perhaps there is an answer to one of my earlier questions implied in that, that Denmark and Great Britain are also in the process of signing the instruments of accession.

I look forward to the wider debate on the National Library and the National Museum and I also look forward to the success of this institute and, as I suggested earlier, to its expansion to under-graduate and pre-university levels. I hope its range will not be confined to the higher echelons of learning only. While higher scholarship is very important in any country or in any community by its very nature it does not affect as many as are affected at the lower levels. Consequently, I welcome its expansion in the future to other levels.

I will be very brief. I want to join in welcoming this measure. I do so because it means an expansion in the activities and the interests of the National Museum and the National Library. I hope that means something more will be done to encourage the establishment of similar branches throughout the-country. We have an admirable museum in Cork and more should be done to exchange the contents with those in the National Museum in Dublin to the benefit of both. Something similar appertains to the National Library and the National Art Gallery. I also hope it will mean the interchange, on a wider scale, of specimens, literature and evidence of the links we have, especially with the countries of Europe now that we are part of the European Community. We have many links in the past with those countries and evidence of that could be exchanged to the benefit of our country and the countries from which specimens would come and to which we could supply specimens, books and documents proving our long association with their cultures.

I hope, as the previous speaker has said, that this Bill will mean an expansion of interest in cultural matters. In this age we are leaning too much towards material things and not spending enough time on cultural matters, which should engage the extended leisure periods that we are all enjoying now, but not to the extent we could if we could appreciate the cultural windows that would be opened for all of us if we had the necessary direction from the top. In anticipating that I would like to express my welcome for this measure.

I am afraid I am going to come down to a more mundane aspect of this rather than the higher educational aspect. Naturally I am interested from the Public Accounts point of view. I am glad to see that it is realised by the Minister's Department, and indeed I should hope it would be realised by all Departments, that it is necessary to conform to proper accounting procedures and that, when money has to be applied in an unforeseen way, which of course is going to happen in Government administration, it is properly provided for in this House.

The Comptroller and Auditor General has had occasion in the recent past to comment in a way that suggests to some of us who have been on the Committee of Public Accounts that there might have been a certain laxity creeping into our public accounting to this extent, not that there is anything wrong with the accounting but that in the charging of an unforeseen item to some subhead that was not intended, this tendency could easily creep in in this age when Government accounting, like every other accounting, is becoming extremely complex.

Therefore, it is a pleasure to see that this detail is properly attended to by the Minister here in presenting the supplementary estimate. I just want to emphasise in the few minutes available to me the importance of this for this Parliament, for the administrative service itself, and for the confidence the country must have in the integrity of our system. If the Minister will bear with me, I shall only take a minute. This is very important, and I would have to go into a specific sphere if I cannot say this in general terms. I know the Minister wants to reply and I do not want to delay him, so will he allow me just to say this: I am not satisfied that the broad heading "Development Scheme" is enough to cover the point I have to make. As time is pressing, I shall leave this particular point in detail now for another place. Again, I am glad that the Minister has in this way explained the necessity for dealing with the accounting.

The other point I should like to make briefly is in regard to the National Library and the National Museum. The accommodation problem there does not arise on the Supplementary Estimate, but any money that is spent on that Department is something that should be attended to on a later occasion.

The Minister gave me responsibility for the National Museum and the National Library subject to his general direction. It is therefore a privilege for me to be associated with this initiative here today in the organisation on a trial basis of educational services. I should like to inform the House that the educational services and the local centres referred to will be integrated into a composite whole. There will be no question of having an exhibition and educational services which are separate one from the other. I should emphasise in response to Deputy Wilson that they are on a trial basis; hence the limited expenditure. I expect that we shall learn a lot; I expect that we shall make mistakes, but I hope we shall have an ongoing system of assessing the results of this service as it is initiated and learn from them; hence the trial approach.

I should also point out that it is hoped to use the resources of both the National Library and the National Museum to present an educational impact rather than to separate one from the other. This is a new initiative.

Generally speaking, I am very pleased that the House has given such a generous welcome to this initiative which I think is the first really new initiative to have taken place in relation to the National Library and the National Museum for some time.

I would like to thank the House for the way in which they have received this Estimate. I shall try to conclude in the two moments which are left, so that others may continue with the other matters with which the House was dealing before we came in.

I welcome, in particular, the intervention of Deputy de Valera, Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. It is precisely because of our desire to conform with this procedure that we are doing this. I seem to remember from my own accounting officer that, while neither he, the recently appointed Secretary, nor I, the recently appointed Minister, has any responsibility for the periods which are being scrutinised by the Public Accounts Committee, nevertheless the intervention of the Deputy was quite opportune. I have noted it, and I am doing my little bit to help.

May I add that my remarks were not directed specifically to the Minister's Department. This is something that is right across the board. I would not like it to be thought that I was specifically indicating the Minister's Department. I am not.

Mr. R. Burke

Additional funds are being provided in the 1974 Estimate which will be before the House later in respect of the services about which Deputy Wilson was questioning me. What is in question here, as the House knows, is a technical operation of freeing the funds from the educational mould so as to enable us to allow planning to go forward. It is not intended, may I say in reply to Deputy Wilson, to have a specific attachment of funds to separate Museum and Library schemes but rather to combine the resources, as the Parliamentary Secretary has said, to both institutions in developing an integrated service.

It is our understanding that the process of accession will proceed in the United Kingdom and in Denmark as soon as ratification is complete. There are, however, some questions arising out of renegotiation with the United Kingdom and of referendum arrangements in Denmark. We in Ireland would, however, wish to be in a position to accede without delay.

In regard to the budget, Deputy Wilson will realise that it was only a draft budget and is not being finalised. It is therefore expected that it will be some time before the Institute expenditure reaches a level which would require £8,000 from us. This will not occur in 1974 and perhaps not even in 1975. In regard to the point on representatives, representatives will be appointed by the Minister for Education. Normally the representatives are an officer of the Department of Education and a representative of the Higher Education Authority.

With regard to Deputy Wilson's question about the amount of money which we would be required to expend on the buildings, in my speech I indicated that the Government of the Italian Republic had agreed to provide free of charge land and buildings. The Deputy did not have, perhaps, the opportunity of reading the speech closely because it had just been given to him.

These are the points that I would wish to make. I want to thank all those who contributed and to say that I hope the services, particularly in this country, which will be provided will be such as to give an earnest of this Government's intention of widening the availability of the services. In reply to Deputy Healy and any other Deputy who may have aspirations, we will do all we can but we do not want to encourage any false hopes in these things. We will proceed slowly and perhaps the first step is the important one. Cork Deputies, no doubt, will press us as will Deputies from other areas, to look after their particular areas.

The Library and Museum will be working together on this educational project. Does the Minister envisage the appointment of a liaison officer to co-ordinate the activities of the Musuem and the Library when they are preparing these things? I should think there would be a necessity to have somebody to take in both institutes, the Library and the Museum.

Mr. R. Burke

I would ask Deputy Wilson to bear with us in that we have not reached a stage of finality about these arrangements. It will be necessary to have a person who will act as a means of communication and consultation between the two services, but I would ask the Deputy not to press me on this point because we do not wish to give any further details. What we are really seeking here is the authority of the Dáil in principle to proceed with these arrangements, and when we have finalised the arrangements we will come back to the Dáil with further information, perhaps on the occasion of our annual Estimates.

Will the services be available in the academic year 1974-75?

Mr. R. Burke

It remains to be seen as to when we will finalise our arrangements. This is a preliminary step and I will be back to the Dáil as soon as possible with final arrangements.

Vote put and agreed to.
Supplementary Estimate reported and agreed to.
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