Deputy Moore gave notice of his intention to raise a matter on the Adjournment. He has 20 minutes and the Minister has ten minutes to reply.
Adjournment Debate: Dublin College of Commerce.
Yesterday, I and two other Deputies asked a very simple question about conditions in Rathmines College of Commerce in Dublin because for many years we have known that it has been very much overcrowded and from time to time we have seen student protests on many matters. I seldom feel in sympathy with student demonstrations or the occupation of buildings—which I am totally against—but I want to make clear that where we come across a case like Rathmines College where there is gross overcrowding, it is our duty as Deputies to pursue the matter and try to ensure that we remove the grievance of the students which in this case is justified.
My colleagues, Deputy Briscoe and Deputy Gibbons, had asked in their questions that space be given in a new building being built very near the college by a private developer and the Minister in reply said he had received representations about the needs of the college and that he would be happy to provide prefabricated accommodation with a view to alleviating the present situation—which is quite acceptable and I am very glad to hear that. Then he said that in regard to Ardee House the intention is that when the premises are leased to the State portion of the building will be made available to Dublin Vocational Education Committee for renting should the committee so desire.
I take the Minister's word that he believed that when he gave this answer on 11th December, but on 6th December the Minister for Finance wrote on the matter and he said:
I have your letter, addressed to the students, of 26th November, regarding accommodation at the College of Commerce. The Dublin Planning Authority and the owners of Ardee House are not prepared to allow the building to be used for anything other than offices. The Central Statistics Office urgently require every square inch of space available in Ardee House but at my request they have agreed to allow the College some office space in the building as a temporary measure. This will, I hope, reduce the pressure on accommodation in the College for the next couple of years. I have already told the Principal of the college that the proposals to develop the college have my full support.
Here is a case of two Ministers, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Education, not knowing what they are doing about the Rathmines College of Commerce. It makes me very uneasy about our whole educational policy when we have one Minister saying that the students may have part of Ardee House and the other Minister saying that they can only have it for offices. To shift the offices from the college of commerce to the new building so as to make room for students is just "not on". We have sufficient remote control in education where students cannot communicate with the authorities and we do not want to bring about a situation where we have students at school in Rathmines Road and, quite a distance away, we have the offices.
I also want to quote from a document which was sent by the owners of the building in May in which they said they would consider an application from the VEC for the letting of the entire premises at Ardee Road. There we have three different versions. In May the owners said they would let the whole building to the VEC. On December 6th the Minister for Finance says that the owner and the Dublin planning authority are not prepared to allow the building to be used for anything except offices. Then in this House yesterday the Minister for Education said in regard to Ardee House that the intention was when the premises were leased to the State portion of the building would be made available to the VEC for renting.
It was not office space the college required; it was accommodation for students who are still trying to work in grossly overcrowded conditions. I accepted, and still accept, the good faith of the Minister in the answer he gave yesterday about the prefabricated accommodation and this will relieve the position, but the Minister for Education has been misinformed by somebody regarding Ardee House. Should we not ask then that the Minister for Finance get in touch with the Minister for Education and say exactly what is happening? In this case the students are justified in making their protest. It must erode confidence in the Department of Education and in the Government generally when we have two Ministers, not at variance, but not in communication on this vital matter.
The College of Commerce was in the area served by Deputy Ryan, Minister for Finance, and he had promised the principal that the proposals to develop the college would have his full support. I do not know what support he has given. Has he ever discussed this with the Minister for Education? Had he discussed it, it would immediately become obvious that there was a difference of opinion or, even more, that somebody had blundered badly when the Minister for Education had been informed that Ardee House, or part of it, would be made available to the students but the Minister for Finance said that it would not, that portion of it would be let for offices only.
It may well be that the Dublin planning officer would not permit a change of use for the building to act as a third level college but why was this not discovered at the beginning? Is it not a simple matter to inquire about the building and its suitability and ask the Dublin planning officer if he has any objection? If students are to go into any school the planning officer must be satisfied that there are certain safety precautions and that the place will not go on fire some day and result in the maiming, or worse, of some of the students, but there seems to have been no thought on this issue. The Government should be ashamed of this exhibition of inefficiency and a very inept attempt to provide a little more space for the 3,000 students who are trying to study at the Rathmines College of Commerce. Students are often blamed for demanding too much or being too vocal—or even physical—in their efforts to redress their wrongs. Here is a matter between the VEC, the Minister for Education and the students but somewhere along the line the whole thing has gone awry. One can imagine the cynicism it breeds in students who want to study. Many of the parents are put to the pin of their collar to send their children to the college. We should be able to demand a higher standard of performance from both Ministers involved.
How can we hope to implement a good educational policy if Ministers cannot agree on a simple matter like this? I believe the Minister for Education made his statement in good faith but surely it is possible for him to ascertain through his officials whether Ardee House will be available as a third-level college or if it will simply be available to some of the officials. Probably the officials are overcrowded also but there are far fewer officials than students and the conditions for them are not quite as bad.
When the Minister told me part of Ardee House would be available, naturally it was assumed it would be available for classrooms, common rooms or for the use of students. However, that does not appear to be the case. There will be some space for offices but I am told that even if some of the offices were transferred from the college it would not ease the situation to any extent.
Surely education is one of the most important aspects of society and from a Government who boast of many educationalists in their ranks we were entitled to expect a better performance. The boys and girls in Rathmines college will eventually enter commercial and industrial life. We believe that as a result of the good training they receive from the excellent teachers in the Rathmines college in later years they will help to develop the economy of the country.
Yesterday I asked the Minister if he could guarantee that the college would not be moved. Apart from the rather ancient building and the cramped conditions, there is also the threat that the college will be transferred to the north Dublin area. This would not be desirable. The college of commerce has been in Rathmines for a long time, and the building is part of the community and the area as much as the houses of the people. Therefore, to put an extra worry on students and parents that some day they will have to move to the outer suburbs of north Dublin is not fair.
I realise it is necessary to have regional colleges but I will not accept the blunders of the two Ministers involved here. The Ministers for Finance and Education are very important Ministers. The Minister for Education has his office in Marlborough Street and the Minister for Finance is in Merrion Street, but between 6th December when the Minister for Finance wrote about this matter and 11th December when the Minister for Education replied to a question put down by Deputies Briscoe, Gibbons and myself they could not meet to discuss the matter. If the students become cynical who can blame them? Is there such a chasm between students and the Government that they do not bother to communicate? Equally, is there such a chasm between the Ministers for Finance and Education that they do not communicate?
We can fear for the development of our educational system if on this small matter—it is small in the context of the national need for education—we cannot tell the students and the college authorities that it is planned to give them more space. The Minister for Education has promised the authorities that he will give them prefabricated buildings. That would be of some help but it will not be a solution to the problem. To suggest, as he has done, that part of Ardee House will be given over to the college, presumably for the students, misled me. However, representatives of the student body came to see me and pointed out what the Minister for Finance had said earlier.
The third document I quoted was from agents for the owners and they stated that the building could be given to the college or sold to them. Despite that, the Minister for Finance has said the Dublin planning officer will not allow this change of use of the building. The agents, a well known firm in the city, have said that they realise the building will be used as a third-level college. The Minister for Education has said that the intention is that when the premises are leased to the State portion will be made available to the VEC, if the committee so desire. The joke is in the last four words; the committee are put to the pin of their collar in their efforts to alleviate the frightful overcrowding. I can assure the Minister they want the premises but whether they want them for offices is a different matter. They need space for the 3,000 students. In this instance we have different versions from the agents for the owners, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Education. Whose word are we to take in all of this?
It is my opinion that the Minister for Education has failed in his efforts to find a solution. I hope he will be able to give me some information on this matter.
As there is one minute left it gives me the opportunity to support the case made by Deputy Moore. A certain amount of confusion seems to have arisen and I hope the Minister will be able to clarify the matter to our satisfaction. Perhaps I might avail of this opportunity to ask the Minister to clarify another issue, a rumour——
I allowed Deputy Moore to raise a specific matter on the Adjournment.
It is important in relation to which Minister is going to deal with the matter. Will the Minister confirm or deny the rumour that he intends resigning from the Government during the Christmas recess?
This is utterly irrelevant.
I should like the Minister to avail of this opportunity to confirm or deny the rumour. It is important for us to know who will be in charge of education.
It is not relevant.
The rumour was started by the vice-chairman of the Labour Party.
I have told the Deputy it is not relevant to the matter being discussed. The Deputy knows he ought not to raise an extraneous matter and indeed it should not be replied to.
The basis of Deputy Moore's case is a misunderstanding or a misreading of the answer which I gave in the House yesterday and which I now quote:
With regard to Ardee House the intention is that when the premises are leased to the State portion of the building will be made available to the City of Dublin VEC for renting should the committee so desire.
The Deputy, a few minutes ago, allowed us to understand his misunderstanding by saying "presumably for the students". That was his understanding of the words I used in the reply. I have got the verbatim report here which indicates that none of the Opposition Deputies pursued that specific point in their supplementary questions. Therefore, to understand from the reply which I gave that I was making available portion of the building for the students was a misunderstanding which was not warranted by the answer I gave.
Therefore, there is no conflict between the Minister for Finance, as quoted by Deputy Moore, and myself. The Minister for Finance said that some space for office accommodation will be made available. I said that portions of Ardee House will be made available and my understanding, and I am now stating it categorically was that the portion will be made available not, as Deputy Moore says, presumably for the students but for office accommodation. Therefore, there is absolutely no basis for the point made by the Deputy that there is misunderstanding between the Minister for Finance and myself. In fact, when the questions were being pursued yesterday I had information concerning the Office of Public Works and the Department of Finance but I was not asked for it.
I wish the Minister would quote his whole answer. I want to point out, if the Minister will pardon me, that they did not look for office accommodation.
Mr. R. Burke
I did not say they did.
I accept the Minister's good faith up to this but if he is going to twist things around I will not accept it.
Deputy Moore, you had your 20 minutes. Please allow the Minister to utilise his ten minutes.
Mr. R. Burke
The Deputy must not now try to put a gloss on his contribution which would indicate that I in any way deceived him.
Let me bring the Deputy back to the origin of the problem of providing satisfactory accommodation at the College of Commerce, Rathmines. In March, 1965, the then Minister for Education sanctioned an extension to the college. During the following seven years successive Ministers grappled with the problem but failed to come up with the final solution. The problem is now mine. It is a complex one as is evidenced by the fact that it has been in the pipeline since 1965.
There are two issues involved—one, the question of moving the third level students from the present building to a new college of commerce and the other, the extent of the provision which is required for second level students in Rathmines.
With regard to the first issue, this is tied up with the medium-term solution of the provision of third-level education in the Dublin area generally. There could be no question of taking a decision with regard to one aspect of third-level education in isolation, without reference to all aspects of the overall problem. As I said in my supplementary answer on Wednesday, the Government decision in relation to the structuring of third-level education will be announced as soon as possible.
Deputy Moore raised the point that the college should not be transferred elsewhere because it is part of the local community facility and that any change would be resented by the people of the locality of Rathmines. I would remind the Deputy and those who waxed so eloquent today about another institution in another area, that decisions in principle had already been taken by my predecessor to transfer the college to a new location. In the autumn of 1970, my immediate predecessor commenced negotiations with the World Bank for a loan for educational purposes, including a loan for a new college of commerce in a new location. His application was successful. I am now negotiating with the World Bank so that the money for the project may be transferred to the second World Bank loan. The period for taking up the second loan will expire in December, 1978. My objective, therefore, is to have the new college building completed by that date at the very latest. That is my medium-term solution—to provide a new college on a new location by December, 1978. There could be no question of leasing the entire Ardee House as a permanent solution without reference to the overall plan for third-level education in Dublin.
Pending the erection of a new college on a new location what are the options open to me? I have already authorised the rental of Ardee House by the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee to accommodate the administrative staff of the college of commerce, thus releasing space in the college itself for classroom purposes. This should be a significant contribution to the problem of inadequate accommodation. To provide classroom accommodation in Ardee House would not be feasible as there could be considerable delay involved, due to the need to get planning permission and also the agreement, if indeed such would be forthcoming, of the vendor of Ardee House.
As a further short-term solution I am happy to provide prefabricated classroom accommodation if the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee would accept it. In this regard, I understand there is space available for prefabricated rooms. The experience of my Department over the past ten years is that prefabricated classrooms are quite suitable as a temporary measure. They provide good, wellheated accommodation. I was glad the Deputy did not force the issue of prefabricated buildings too far and was willing to accept them as a short-term solution. Therefore, I will not enter into any defence of them.
The second issue to which I referred in my opening remarks is the extent of the provision which is required for second-level students. Having regard to the student potential in the area, present indications are that when the third-level students transfer to a new building, the existing accommodation, subject to minor modifications, might prove adequate. This issue of the extent of the accommodation for second-level students will be examined by my Department in consultation with the Dublin Advisory Committee on second-level education in good time so that a satisfactory medium-term solution for these students can be provided. In the meantime, the short-term solutions I have already referred to will meet their needs.
May I reiterate the point I made in the beginning that this is a complex problem and not easy of solution? It has been with us now since 1965. Many things have been around since the middle sixties and it is my duty to take up these pieces and try to bring some kind of pattern out of the chaos. I am proposing that a new college of commerce which, as I have already indicated must be completed by December, 1978, will be erected. Pending the erection of that college I have authorised the rental of portion of Ardee House and the supply of prefabricated rooms. I intend to keep the matter under review and to give as much assistance as possible to the VEC to meet any further difficulties that may arise.
Where is the site of the new college?
Mr. R. Burke
The site is adjacent to the existing building. May I correct another point made by the Deputy when he gave the impression that there were 3,000 students? The exact figures are approximately 160 whole time third level students, not 3,000 students. There are, I will admit, many evening, part-time students.
That is the point.
Mr. R. Burke
I gave the information to the Deputy yesterday. If it led to a misunderstanding by him it is regrettable but it could not and should not necessarily be read into the phrase I used that "portion of the building will be made available to the City of Dublin VEC for renting should the committee so desire." If the Deputy had pursued me yesterday as to the exact nature and meaning of the renting I would have been glad to provide him with the information which was in my brief. There is, therefore no basis for the Deputy's statement on the Adjournment tonight and there is no conflict between the Ministers for Finance and Education.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 13th December, 1974.