asked the Minister for Education the number of times since the date of his appointment on which he has met the members of the Higher Education Authority for discussions upon tertiary education.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Third Level Education.
1.
Since I assumed office as Minister for Education——
May I ask a supplementary question on yesterday's 17 questions?
No, Deputy, that would not be in order.
I tried yesterday to ask a supplementary question, and did not get an opportunity, in regard to an academic bias in education. Would you give me an opportunity of asking it now?
No. When the Deputy rose the time had expired for questions. I could not permit him to raise a question at that time.
It was not my fault, a Cheann Comhairle, that you did not see me but I did offer. I have been denied an opportunity and I will not have an opportunity for six months to ask a question. Do you not feel I am entitled to ask it now?
No, we can only hear supplementaries on questions on today's Order Paper.
Mr. R. Barke
Since I assumed office as Minister for Education I have met members of the Higher Education Authority on six occasions and in addition I have had many informal meetings with the chairman. Officers of my Department are in regular contact with members and staff of the HEA.
May I ask the Minister if the recommendations made by the Higher Education Authority differed substantially from the proposals which he made on the 16th of December in regard to tertiary education?
Mr. R. Burke
As is obvious from reading the documents, there are some differences. If the Deputy wants me to elaborate on these I can do so.
Question No. 2.
Is the Minister aware that the present chairman of the Higher Education Authority, in an article in The Irish Times some time ago, advocated the retention of the binary system in third level education?
Mr. R. Burke
That does not arise.
I think there are questions on that subject later on.
Would the Minister indicate, as requested in Deputy Thornley's question, the number of times on which he has met the members of the Higher Education Authority for discussions on tertiary education?
Mr. R. Burke
I have met them six times and on each occasion we discussed tertiary education.
The Minister did not say that.
Mr. R. Burke
It is understood.
My supplementary question does not come up later on as far as I can see and I would like to hear an answer to it from the Minister.
Would the Minister not accept that according to the report of his reply, which was totally inaudible to everybody in the House yesterday owing to the rather disgraceful squabble which took place, the Minister has completely rejected the recommendations of the Higher Education Authority in respect of the disposition of engineering, biological and physical sciences between the Dublin universities?
Mr. R. Burke
The Government in making their decisions, as I pointed out in the reply, put a moratorium on the development of the educational science faculty in Trinity and made decisions which would be a departure from the physical biological divide between Trinity and UCD.
Question No. 2.
Arising out of the Minister's reply——
Mr. R. Burke
You have called the next question, a Cheann Comhairle.
I want to ask a supplementary question.
I will hear the Deputy.
Arising out of the six discussions which the Minister had with the members of the Higher Education Authority did they recommend to him that University College, Galway, should not be established as a university in its own right?
Mr. R. Burke
My discussions with these bodies are normally kept confidential.
My supplementary was whether the Minister knew that the present chairman of the Higher Education Authority is on record as being in favour of the retention of the binary system in third level education.
Mr. R. Burke
I have not seen the report to which the Deputy refers.
Question No. 2, please.
Would the Minister——
Deputies will have to obey the Chair. I am calling on Deputy Power for a final supplementary.
Would the Minister indicate whether he feels that the recent proposals put forward by him will have the effect of making it more enticing for students to go on for a degree in technological subjects rather than academic subjects and does he feel that the imbalance from which we now suffer will be corrected by his proposals?
Mr. R. Burke
That is the fundamental reason for the proposals.
2.
asked the Minister for Education the number of times since his appointment he has met delegations of the Irish Federation of University Teachers to discuss the problems of tertiary education.
Mr. R. Burke
I have met members of the Irish Federation of University Teachers once since I took up office and in addition I attended a seminar organised by them, on the theme "Education in Ireland today".
Does the Minister consider it adequate that he should once meet the organised union of university teachers, who are expected to be expert in this field, during his period of office and is he not aware that even his penultimate predecessor, ex-Deputy Lenihan, had the courtesy to convey his proposals in the sphere of university education in 1968 to the Irish Federation of University Teachers? Has the Minister done the same thing?
Mr. R. Burke
That is in the next question but I am not aware of the latter point made by the Deputy.
3.
asked the Minister for Education if his statement on 16th December, 1974, concerning the future of tertiary education in the Republic of Ireland was communicated before its release to the Press to (a) the universities or university colleges concerned (b) the Irish Federation of University Teachers (c) the Union of Students in Ireland and (d) the staff associations of the various colleges involved.
Mr. R. Burke
Copies of the statement on higher education made by me at a Press reception on 16th December, 1974, were not circulated in advance to anyone or any body. Copies were, however, sent to the heads of the universities, principals of other higher level colleges, the Irish Federation of University Teachers, the Higher Education Authority, the National Council for Educational Awards, the Union of Students and other interested parties later that day.
Would the Minister clarify my befuddled and uneducated mind as to what constitutes consultation? He spoke in the Dáil yesterday, as far as I can understand, of his willingness to receive representations from the bodies which are mentioned in this question. He has also said that the terms he has prescribed are not negotiable. Would the Minister kindly explain to my befuddled mind how terms which are not negotiable are also going to be subject to representations by the bodies which I mentioned?
Mr. R. Burke
I was at pains over a period of weeks to explain the point and I laboured it yesterday in response to questions in the Dáil. The announcement made on 16th December in respect of the various matters such as the conjoint board, the National University of Ireland, the University of Dublin and the various other matters, related to decisions taken by the Government. Consequential on the taking of these decisions, other matters will have to be decided in the course of filling out such things as the composition, nature, functions and relationships of the conjoint board, the various bodies in these new universities and so on. These are matters which are being compiled and which will be discussed by the Government and, may I stress, even to the most befuddled brain, that I cannot pre-empt the Government's right in this area to make decisions. If I were to do so and announce them I would be reneging on my responsibility as a member of a Cabinet which is bound by collective responsibility.
Has the Minister considered the degree of unsettlement in the junior staff of the various Irish colleges and of the students in respect of their ultimate fate in the event of his apparently non-negotiable decisions being put into operation?
Mr. R. Burke
If the hesitations arise in respect of decisions already announced, they would have some reason for apprehension if they feel strongly about these. In respect of those matters in which they could offer a useful input into the further elaboration of the composition of bodies, then I have received and will continue to receive representations. Only on Monday last I received representations from the board of Trinity College. I am meeting the heads of the universities next week, the Dublin VEC and the Irish Federation of University Teachers. Various independent pieces of advice are given to me by people working in the Dublin technological colleges, people working in the regional technical colleges, principals, students and various others. In fact, I am inundated with pieces of advice which I will incorporate in so far as these are not in conflict with the basic decisions already taken.
Will the Minister indicate when he got the last piece of advice from the City of Dublin VEC?
Mr. R. Burke
My office was in consultation with the headquarters of the VEC to set up a meeting between that body and myself. I also have other ways of knowing what goes on in the VEC.
Will the Minister indicate when that meeting will take place?
Mr. R. Burke
I can give the Deputy the exact information shortly. I do not think the office at Ballsbridge has come back to us with a date. I will tell the Deputy the date as soon as possible.
Is the Minister aware that the office at Ballsbridge has been awaiting a reply from him to indicate the date on which he might receive a representative of the VEC?
Mr. R. Burke
I have not been tardy in accepting invitations from people who want to come to see me. The Dublin VEC will be coming in in the near future.
May I ask the Minister whether he agrees with some or all of the decisions taken by the Government which were announced in his statement of 16th December? Will he indicate to us the ones with which he personally does not agree?
Mr. R. Burke
The Deputy is being very clever when he uses this kind of phraseology. In fact, in one of the papers this morning a phrase used by him was attributed to another Deputy. I never used the word "some" in relation to reasons raised yesterday. This is a mischievous question and I do not intend to answer it.
I am calling question No. 4.
On a point of order——
Mr. R. Burke
I do not wish to add——
A point of order has been raised.
The Minister alleges he was misreported, presumably by the Official Reporter as well as by Press reporters, in the statement he made yesterday in my hearing that he knew of some of the reasons why the decisions announced on 16th December were taken——
I want to advise the Deputy that although he rose on a point of order he is now proceeding to make a speech. That is not in order.
Mr. R. Burke
Exactly.
It is only right that I should draw the Chair's attention to it because the Chair heard, as everyone in the House heard——
It is not in order to engage in argument or to debate at Question Time.
Now that we have cleared that up, would the Minister care to answer my supplementary?
(Interruptions.)
Mr. R. Burke
The Deputy is misleading the House.
Would the Minister care to answer my supplementary question?
Mr. R. Burke
What was it? It appears that even the Deputy cannot remember it.
The Minister wants me to repeat the supplementary. Is that the wish of the Chair?
Mr. R. Burke
We are already dealing with Question No. 4 which the Chair has called.
Will the Minister answer my question?
There is no need to engender heat into this matter at this stage. Has Deputy O'Malley a pertinent, final supplementary to put?
Yes, I have.
Mr. R. Burke
On which question?
On Question No. 3.
Mr. R. Burke
That was the second last question the Chair called.
In relation to the statement the Minister issued on 16th December which he was at great pains to point out was a collective decision of the Government as a whole, numerous points were set out——
I would ask the Deputy to put a short question.
With how many of those decisions does the Minister agree, and with how many does he disagree?
Mr. R. Burke
Even for Deputy O'Malley that question is naïve. As I said yesterday, if they want me to talk about Cabinet responsibility we can go back three or four years to discuss that concept.
What about the Labour Conference in Galway?
Will Deputies please allow the Chair to make reasonable progress at Question Time? When the Chair calls the next question, will Deputies please desist from putting further supplementaries, thereby placing the Chair in an invidious position?
Will the Minister state if the proposals on technological education came in the first instance from the Minister for Education?
Mr. R. Burke
To what proposals is the Deputy referring?
The proposals for the organisation of technological education at regional and central levels.
Mr. R. Burke
This was the decision of the Government. That does not necessarily exclude the arrival of suggestions from any particular quarter.
Further to the Minister's reply to Deputy Thornley's question and supplementary, like Deputy Thornley I am somewhat befuddled. Perhaps the Minister would clarify the matter further. As I understood his reply, he said the decisions announced were Government decisions that are final but that there are a number of consequential decisions yet to be made on which he is prepared to receive representations. I would assume from that that the Minister means that representations from any of the bodies mentioned by Deputy Thornley in regard to the decisions already announced are futile. Am I interpreting the Minister correctly?
Mr. R. Burke
I would not use the word "futile". The decisions have been taken. I am a member of a Cabinet who have taken the decisions and, to that extent, they are final. May I say in relation to a radio programe that I heard today——
Is this in order?
Mr. R. Burke
——someone said that the Minister was back-tracking. I am not back-tracking.
I am calling Question No. 4.
The Minister said he did not regard the word "futile" as being the right one. Can he suggest the correct description of representations in regard to decisions already announced?
Mr. R. Burke
I have laboured incessantly in the last three days to explain the representations which I am receiving from the various bodies——
(Interruptions.)
Mr. R. Burke
I have said that a White Paper has been prepared, that it will be published and brought before the House.
We must pass to the next question.
If I may put a final supplementary question? I am the last person to wish to embarrass the Minister and I think the performance of the House in the last two days has been unseemly and disgraceful. However, I accept Deputy Colley's point. How on earth does the Minister propose to accept representations about decisions he has already announced?
This is repetition. We have heard this question put on a number of occasions.
The trouble is we cannot get an answer.
Mr. R. Burke
If the Deputy checks the official record he will find my reply to that question.
I am calling Question No. 4.