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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 6 May 1975

Vol. 280 No. 7

Statement by The Taoiseach.

The policy of the Government in relation to Northern Ireland is based on two principles; the necessity for a power sharing executive in Northern Ireland and the need to give appropriate recognition to the relationship which exists between the two parts of Ireland in such matters as economic and social policy and security.

The Government have in all their communications with the United Kingdom Government reiterated this policy. In September last, after a meeting which I held with the British Prime Minister, Mr. Wilson, the joint communiqué issued after the meeting stated:

On Northern Ireland both the Taoiseach and the Prime Minister agreed in the interest of all the people living there—and of the people of both countries—that peace and stability should be restored on a basis commanding widespread acceptance within the community there. They reaffirmed that this objective can be achieved only if both sections of the community in Northern Ireland share power in Government. The Taoiseach and Prime Minister confirmed that any enduring political arrangements must take account of the special relationship which exists between the two parts of Ireland. This Irish dimension will be the subject of further consultations between the two Governments and also with elected representatives in Northern Ireland.

At a further meeting in November last, Mr. Wilson and I reaffirmed the identify of our views on Northern Ireland as expressed in the communiqué I have just quoted. The Government believes that continued insistence by the British and Irish Governments on their agreed policy on these matters, to which they are, separately and jointly committed will, in due course, lead to a general recognition of the fact that no alternative system of internal government in Northern Ireland, based on the exclusion of the minority from power, will be acceptable to these sovereign Governments or will be workable in practice. Recognition of this reality by all the political leaders who seek to participate in the running of Northern Ireland's affairs is a necessary pre-condition for the creation of stable government and peace in Northern Ireland.

The Government will take every opportunity of making this position clear within Ireland, in Britain and abroad.

In pursuing their policy it has been proper for the Government to keep in close touch with political parties in Northern Ireland. They will continue to do so—in particular, with the SDLP, without whose acceptance, as the party which has repeatedly secured the confidence of the vast bulk of the minority, no effective system of government can be put into operation in Northern Ireland.

As I indicated before the Taoiseach read his statement I had put down a question on the remarks of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs on RTE last Sunday. I did not press the point in the knowledge that the Taoiseach was going to make a statement, a statement which I was given to understand, shortly after I received information that my question was refused, would deal with the Northern Convention and the current political situation in the North of Ireland. Apart from a reiteration of a communiqué which was published some months ago, and which takes up about half of the Taoiseach's very brief statement, there is no reference whatever to the situation that has come about as a result of the Convention, a situation which, I submit, has been gravely prejudiced by the untimely and to some extent intemperate remarks of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I should like to point out to the Taoiseach——

We cannot hear the statement of the Leader of the Opposition up here.

I want to refer again to the statement by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and, indeed, by other Ministers on Northern Ireland matters, and to suggest to him that statements like that are causing confusion and bewilderment amongst the public as to what Government policy on the North really is; indeed, they are causing doubt as to whether this Government have any policy at all in relation to Northern Ireland.

I should like to refer the Taoiseach to the remarks—no doubt he has heard them or has been told about them—of Mr. Laird, a Unionist Member of the Convention, to the effect, commenting on the remarks of the Minister for Foreign Affairs: "Now the Dublin Government have learned their lesson and are backing off." That is an ominous interpretation from an entrenched Unionist of the meaning of the words spoken by the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

Deputies

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

I am very sorry— the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. Having heard the Minister for Foreign Affairs the previous evening, I can understand why he might take exception to my identifying him with the remarks of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I am sure the Taoiseach will also have heard the welcome given by the British conservative Press—I do not use the word "conservative" in any party political sense—to the statements made by Deputy Cruise-O'Brien, Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I suggest that, while the Minister may have pleased the British conservative Press and the Unionist element in the North, where he may have been trying to establish himself, as I think he has done, as the darling of that Press and the darling of Unionist opinion, has he taken any account whatever of the opinions and feelings of the other tradition in the North of Ireland, feelings of being alienated, not only by the statement the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs made but by the general inactivity of this Government in relation to the situation up there? I would like to suggest to him that what I have said is exemplified in the remarks of Mr. Paddy Devlin after the Minister spoke, and later by Mr. Seamus Mallon, who said that the words of the Minister were: "Manna from Heaven for the Loyalists." In the light of that reaction, and in the light of the feeling we all know now exists among the minority population, I would like to ask the Taoiseach whether he realises the potential danger inherent in these remarks of the Minister as being more of an incitement rather than, as I feel they should have been, an appeasement?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

We all know the value of political dialogue and the political process, but if a Minister of this Government is going to denounce and cut off this value and undermine what political dialogue will mean in the North following the Convention, then how, in the name of reason, can we expect people who may be otherwise disposed to restrain themselves in circumstances like this?

I would like to point out also that the Minister's statement last Sunday, taken in conjunction with previous statements made by him and, in particular, the one in which he said he was not actively working towards Irish unity, all these statements can be interpreted by all people, certainly by opponents of the political process, as an abandonment of the aspiration which has long and deeply been held by a majority of the Irish people. Let me say it is not as though the Minister's remarks on Sunday came out of the blue; it is not as though the Taoiseach or members of the Government could not have had some prior notice of them because the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs expressed himself in exactly similar terms on the "7 Days" programme the previous evening, so I can only take it that his remarks were deliberate and that, by implication, his remarks were condoned, if not approved, by his colleagues in Government.

I want now to refer to the Taoiseach's statement. He said the British and Irish Governments on their agreed policy on these matters, to which they are separately and jointly committed, will in due course lead to a general recognition of the fact that no alternative system of internal Government in Northern Ireland based on the exclusion of the minority from power will be acceptable to those sovereign Governments or will be workable in practice. I do not think I need point out, either by inference or implication, that the opposite to exclusion from power is power sharing and if the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, a member of this Government, who, through his leader, is solemnly committed to this policy, says the exact opposite, how then can the Taoiseach reconcile what he has just told the House today with the stated views of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I want to ask the Taoiseach has he and his Government notwithstanding the leamh words used in this statement, abandoned as a means of contributing towards a solution of the Northern Ireland situation the concept of power sharing? I want to ask further, despite again what the Taoiseach has said, will his Government continue to encourage the British Government to work towards the establishment of a power sharing Executive in the North of Ireland? If the answer to both these questions is "yes", again I ask how, in the face of the remarks of a prominent Minister, can they pursue with any credibility this policy with the British Government? We all know that the British Government have means of exercising effective influence on the development of the situation in Northern Ireland. We know well that they are contributing hundreds of millions of pounds every year by direct financial subsidy, and in many other ways as well, and surely it is obvious to the Government and to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs that this was not the time to make a statement like that when that Minister knows that the British Government have influence, influence which I believe should be directed along the lines towards ensuring power sharing as a policy in the development of the situation in the North of Ireland to which the Taoiseach tells us both his Government and the British Government are committed.

We, too, on this side of the House, are committed and, as I said in a short statement after the Minister's speech, all parties here and all parties in Westminster are committed except, of course, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. He has now abandoned it. Here, again, I ask where is the reconciliation between this kind of statement and Government policy, if there is such a policy in existence? Was it not a most inappropriate time for the Minister to make these remarks, pre-judging, and adversely prejudicing, the outcome of the Convention even before it sat and, indeed, even before the preliminary sitting with the chairman of that Convention and the party leaders took place?

I might say in passing that the British Government have themselves expressed dissatisfaction with the remarks of the Spokesman of the British Opposition in relation to the outcome of this Convention and I might add that it was Mr. Airey Neave who said he did not agree with all the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs said but went only so far as to say that he could not share that Minister's pessimism. These were the remarks, simple and innocent enough remarks, in answer to questions that a British parliamentarian made dissociating himself from a statement made by a member of the Irish Government.

I welcome the fact that the Taoiseach has made some kind of statement to help clear up the position. Unfortunately he has made no reference whatever to the statement of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and, in my opinion, and in the opinion of this party, he has made no attempt whatever to clear up the ambivalent approach that now seems to exist in this Coalition Government in relation to Northern Ireland matters. This is the Government over which he presides. Within two days of a statement of this nature he gives no indication whatever to what extent, if any, he disagrees with it, or gives no indication whatever to what extent, if any he will permit individual Ministers to make ambivalent statements of this nature. I hope never again will Northern Ireland policy be expressed by the Government in diverse tongues. This is the cost the country must pay for a coterie of people in power who have so much in opposition and who have so many diverse opinions and give expression to them.

However undesirable and even tolerable that statements, which are not in accordance with Government policy on social and economic matters, may be, I agree it is entirely intolerable that statements by such people as the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs should be let go without any dissociation in the remarks made by the Taoiseach when given a clear opportunity here in this House. I ask the Taoiseach in future to ensure that no matter how many voices might enunciate so-called Government policy that only he will tell the people what Government policy is in relation to this very delicate national political problem and that that policy will be followed.

I said the Minister's remarks were inopportune. In the absence of the Taoiseach yesterday at an official function and in the absence abroad of the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach made a covering up statement. He made the kind of statement through which one could read: "tut tut, Minister for Posts and Telegraphs" but he went further today. He said he would not be as positive or as pessimistic as Deputy Cruise-O'Brien in foreclosing on the manoeuvres of political parties in the Convention. I take it he used the word "manoeuvres" in the ordinary political sense and without any sense of decrying the efforts that will be made to produce a workable executive. He went on further to say that the Minister went even further than he need have gone, that he need not have gone as far as he did.

I believe there were two factors that adversely affected the results of the Convention election for the moderate opinion in the North. One was the boycott and the intimidation by the Provos and the other was the so-called low profile of this Government in relation to the Northern situation. We have been told of the virtues of this low profile, that the people in the North could solve their problems themselves but there is an element in the North that needs some support and an expression of that support from the people down here.

That was not given. The net result was that in at least two areas seats were lost. One which springs to mind immediately is South Armagh where a very eminent member of the SDLP, Paddy O'Hanlon, lost his seat. These losses were due to these factors.

This party know the delicacy of the situation. We also know where we stand and where we have always stood in relation to the North of Ireland. We have been restrained over the past few weeks in the run-up to this Convention election. We have been restrained following the results of it. We have been hopeful that in one way or another the kind of agreed policy between the parties in this House, between the British and Irish Governments, in relation to the power sharing objective, would somehow or other work. I believe, with the kind of statements made by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, he has greatly prejudiced that situation and has set back the attainment of the aspirations of the great majority of the Irish people.

May I just say——

On a point of order, perhaps, Deputy.

No, on the statement of the Taoiseach.

The Deputy must be aware by now that the Chair is precluded under Standing Order No. 38 from hearing any further statement except from a spokesman nominated by a party in Opposition. I am sorry I cannot hear the Deputy. There is no motion before the House.

May I ask some questions, seeing that this Standing Order was, in fact, put through this House by the connivance of the Government and the Opposition Parties for a purpose best known to themselves? It was introduced and put through by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, Deputy Kelly, with assurance on the day it was going through that there was nothing in it that would in any way limit the rights of Deputies who might not belong to any of the established parties.

Another opportunity may be found, Deputy, for debating the Standing Orders.

There may well be but that is on the record and I want to underscore it again pending the time when it may be appropriate to discuss it. May I, with your permission, ask for clarification from the Taoiseach in regard to a few of the things he said? In fact, he said very little. I want to ask him for some clarification so that we may be clear as to what the Government attitude is in regard to the Six County situation.

The Chair would feel disposed to allow a question but the Chair cannot allow a series of questions giving rise to possible debate. That would not be in order.

May I ask the Taoiseach if it is in a nutshell Government policy that power sharing is an essential, together with a recognition of the Irish dimension, that there can be no alternative to internal government in the Six Counties unless these two elements are inherent in the system? Might I also ask him to clarify for me and for the people of this country as a whole, whether the statement by Deputy Conor Cruise-O'Brien, a member of his Government, to the effect that the withdrawal of the British from the Six Counties would be a catastrophe is current Government belief and whether, in fact, believing in that way is tantamount to saying that the British must stay, which is contrary to all——

I gave the Deputy some latitude to ask a specific question. Is he now going to exceed the latitude granted by the Chair?

The specific question is whether or not power sharing and the Irish dimension of which we have heard so much are, in fact, suitable ingredients through which a peaceful internal government can be found in the Six Counties, while, at the same time, we retain the British by our wish and by the statements of Ministers of this Government. I say they should get out and let us find our solution in the Six Counties rather than this codology that has been going on for far too long with death and destruction.

What does the Taoiseach do with a cut-throat Minister in a case like this?

I think the Taoiseach wishes to say something.

It shows the gravity of the situation when Deputy Paddy Smith comments on it.

(Interruptions.)

I want to repeat the reference which my statement made to the basis of the Government policy in relation to Northern Ireland. I said it was based on two principles, the necessity for a power sharing executive in Northern Ireland and the need to give appropriate recognition to the relationship which exists between the two parts of Ireland. Deputy Lynch asked if we still support the policy of a power sharing executive. Not merely do we support the idea of power sharing but, as I said, the statement that was issued after the meeting I had with Mr. Wilson in September, reaffirmed the British Government's commitment to this approach and at a subsequent meeting in November that view was again reaffirmed.

In addition, it was stated then, and I direct Deputy Blaney's attention to it, that this Irish dimension will be the subject of further consultation between the two Governments and also with elected representatives in Northern Ireland. Deputy Lynch raised, as did Deputy Blaney and Deputy Smith by way of query, the remarks of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. It is well that the remarks should be available in full. What the Minister said was this: The questioner said:

I asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Dr. Conor Cruise-O'Brien, this morning if he could see any possible area of agreement in the Convention.

The Minister replied:

Well, I see no possibility of agreement on an executive at the present time. The Loyalist majority clearly exclude a power-sharing executive and the SDLP will, of course, not accept any other form of executive and, of course, the Government here would be opposed to an exclusively Loyalist executive in Northern Ireland because of the history of the past. So I think agreement on an executive is not available. It remains to be seen whether there is any other ground on which there could be a kind of a meeting of minds, for example, in relation to a legislative assembly. I do not know whether that will be possible. I do not know whether there will be an attempt to hold this thing together.

Later he said:

Well, the Irish dimension is a fact. Whether Loyalists or anybody else want it to go away, it will not go away. It is there.

That, I think, indicates that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs was referring to the stated position of the two main groups in the Northern Ireland Convention, the attitude of the Loyalist majority and the attitude of the SDLP and he restated the attitude of the Government here, that we would be opposed to an exclusively Loyalist executive.

I have reaffirmed in the statement today the Government's attitude on this matter and I think it is important in this regard to differentiate between policy and talk of support. A good deal of the talk of support is talk; it does not strengthen the position of those involved in this and we have made our position quite clear and I think the attitude which the Government have taken up in this matter has the support of the majority of the people who recognise it as a realistic approach to the very difficult problems of the North of Ireland.

Does the Taoiseach agree, then, with the remarks of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs or would he accept the attitude of his Parliamentary Secretary who said the Minister went too far?

I am not going to enter into answering interrogatories on a matter of this sort. I have said what our attitude is. I have repeated what the Minister said, which is a different thing from the impression which a number of people have taken out of his remarks.

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