First, may I say that this is the first time I have had an opportunity to remark on the appointment of Deputy G. Collins as Opposition spokesman on Justice. I was very pleased at the appointment and welcome him to it. I hope it will give him satisfaction and some pleasure.
I want to thank him and all members of this House for their contributions to this Bill. The Bill has a very narrow and limited objective— to dispose of the accumulated funds in the hands of the Exchequer to the consequence of section 27 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1960. I have also indicated in the Bill the areas in which these funds should be spent —diagnosis, treatment and prevention of alcoholism. That immediately raises a very wide field for debate and Deputies, quite naturally ranged over that field. We have had a discussion on existing licensing laws in regard to the position of the restrictive licences still remaining, hours, the position of clubs, special exemptions, and so on. We have also had a survey of alcoholism as a problem affecting this country. This has been an interesting and useful debate.
Before I deal with the specific points raised, might I deal with the points raised by Deputy Lalor, that is, the lack of specific reference in my speech to the volume and column of the Official Report containing the quotation I gave. I regret Deputy Lalor was inconvenienced by this unintentional omission, and also regret that a busy man like him, Chief Whip of his Party, had to spend so long researching. The reference was 24th May, 1960, Volume 182, columns 44 and 45 of the Official Report. If Deputy Lalor had sent in a note, I would gladly have provided the reference and saved him a lot of time.
Deputy G. Collins asked where this money was maintained since the fund was accumulated. I am advised that the fund was not invested until 1972 when it was invested in Exchequer stock. I do not know why it was not invested sooner but, as the Deputies will realise, I had no responsibility, nor had any of my colleagues, for the disposal of the funds in those days. Possibly there was some feeling that it was a special fund and did not fall to be used at all. In any event, a query was raised at that time as to why that money was lying idle and as a result it was invested in 6½ per cent Exchequer stock and the income which has accrued will be added to the fund.
I decided that the fund should be spent in the manner proposed in the Bill because it is common case that alcoholism is a serious problem here. We are not alone among the nations in the western world in having it a serious problem in our society. Although it is a problem in most other countries that does not make it any less real or pernicious. It is a very real problem which we will have to solve. Its solution will require research, prevention, cure and, with respect to Deputy Brennan, research into the causes of it. It is not enough to say that because a man drinks that is the cause of alcoholism. We have to go back a stage further and find out why he drinks. Is it a matter of his body metabolism? Does heredity play a part? Is there a personality defect? If so, is it chemical or psychological? Is it a result of his environment? There is a fairly wide field for research into the causes. If that research should be fruitful and can identify a recurring pattern of causes, the cure and, more important, the prevention of the disease will be assisted. This is a serious disease and still needs a lot of research. We are all familiar with this disease and we see its bad effects. We see the hit and miss way it affects people. We are perhaps, inclined to forget about the need to be scientific in our approach to it. It is like a more esoteric disease such as scarlatina or some other disease which is visible and familiar to the medical profession. It is seen by us all and can be recognised. We do not consider ourselves experts on it but we have more than a nodding acquaintance with it and the need for a scientific approach may be blunted. That is why I decided the money should be spent in dealing scientifically with this disease. It is a real scourge.
The Bill is not designed to deal with alcoholism or the treatment or prevention of alcoholism. That is a vast subject which is outside the scope of this Bill. The Bill is limited to providing this fund for the purpose. I do not presume to say it will be the end, or even the start of the beginning of the end, of this problem. It is an apt way to spend this money because of its origin. It is an accumulation of fees paid by publicans to convert restricted licences into full licences.
As I indicated in my opening speech it was intended at the time, without being hard about it, that the accumulated fees might be used to buy up other licences and so restrict the general pool of licences. That was only a hope. It was not a hard decision. Experience has shown that it would not be a good decision and that it would be an impractical way to deal with the fund. The number of licences becoming available would be very limited and they would probably be moribund anyway because active licences would not be surrendered for sale. If the full market value were to be paid the fund would go a very short distance only in buying licences, and the overall pool would not be diminished. The original idea concerning the disposal of this fund did not prove practical and some other use had to be found for it. In consultation with my colleagues in the Government we decided that it should be connected with the licensed trade and that research into alcoholism would be an apt way to spend it.
Quite naturally Deputies talked about the problems of alcoholism. I want to disabuse the House of the idea that this Bill purports to be the answer to the problem in any way. It could not be, because the sum is too small and the problem is too big. The Bill is merely for the narrow purpose of disposing of the money. It was implicit in what some Deputies said that it was a paltry sum to provide for the purpose but, as I say, that is missing the point. Deputy Dr. Gibbons and Deputy Briscoe wondered whether, because the sum is small for this research project, when the fund was exhausted all research projects would end. I can reassure them that that will not happen. Apart from this fund, other moneys are being made available for research in this area. In fairness to the spirit industry, Irish distillers and the vintners themselves have made considerable amounts of money available for study and work in the area of alcoholism. I do not think there will be a cessation of work in that general field when this fund is exhausted.
The question of advertising and education in this field was touched on by many Deputies. It was suggested that the fund could be used very profitably in that area. There was some apprehension that because of the techniques of the advertisements for drink, the counter-techniques would have to be so sophisticated and widespread that the fund might be inadequate. The Department of Health initiated a campaign of education and information on this subject in October, 1973. This campaign involves educational programmes for schools. Some commercial time has been taken for the publication of factual knowledge concerning alcoholism and drink. There have been press advertisements and booklets have been produced. Seminars and lectures have been promoted up and down the country directed principally at people who are in the position to pass on this information to the younger and more vulnerable generation. Over £100,000 has been spent on that campaign to date. I take Deputy Moore's point that, having regard to the amount of money being spent by the other side, this is probably very small, but there is a limit to the money available.
I agree that education is possibly the most important weapon available in the fight against alcoholism. The licensing hours and the rounds system, whether clubs are abusing their position, the mores of the younger generation, are all factors. Essentially —and Deputy Carter put his finger on it—it is the social attitude of the community that will determine the drinking habits. This is a layman's view as an observer and, to some extend, it contradicts what I said earlier, that it is a subject which requires scientific research. I suppose we are entitled as laymen observing the scene as we see it, to make comments on that scene and on the problem of alcoholism because it is so tied up with our social customs and our recreational habits and our attitude to leisure. We have to look at the social scene for a change in the attitude to drinking. This gets back to education because it is through education that the coming generation can have their views trained or channelled into a proper appreciation of what drink should mean, the dangers of drink and how not to abuse it.
Some worries were expressed by Deputies about the growth of lounge bars, and their sophistication and attractiveness being contributory factors. They may well be, but they should not be if there is a proper motivation on the part of those using them, and if they are properly educated into using them and properly warned against the dangers of the abuse of alcohol. Education is terribly important. I have no doubt that in the projects which will be undertaken following the enactment of this Bill attention will be given to devising techniques to educate young people in drinking. It may be that some of the money will be given to associations such as Alcoholics Anonymous. The fact that I did not mention them in my opening speech does not mean that I do not appreciate their work in this field. The whole community is aware of their worth and grateful to them for their work.
There is one specialised agency in the field, that is, the Irish National Council on Alcoholism, a body set up and specially devoted to dealing with this problem. They have a lot of expert knowledge and experience available to them, including the experience of Alcoholics Anonymous. Possibly that body will be consulted by the Minister for Health and myself in deciding how this money is to be spent. I agree with Deputies who urge that education of our youth is a matter of grave importance, It is basic. That is a layman's personal view. We have to take scientific advice on it when it comes to spending the money.
Most Deputies who spoke laid emphasis on that point. I suppose Deputies who mentioned advertising —Deputy Moore, Deputy Collins and Deputy Enright—had it in mind that it was part of the process of giving out information and blunting bad information, so to speak, or indiscriminate pushing of a dangerous substance which alcohol is. I suppose the advertisements could be described, perhaps a bit unfairly, as doing just that. When we talk about countering them that would be a matter of education rather than counter advertising. It would be entering into an advertising war with experts whose budgets might be somewhat differently geared.
The hours of trading were mentioned by a number of Deputies. Deputy Fergus O'Brien thought that the afternoon closing hour should be extended to an evening period in Dublin which would have a useful social effect, the same effect in the evening as it was designed to have during the day, to break the continuous pattern of drinking where a person would be so inclined. It was thought it would be of particular benefit to a person on his way home from work who dropped in for a drink and perhaps found himself the victim of a rounds system, ending up remaining the whole evening. The Deputy felt that if there were to be a break from six o'clock to 7.30 p.m. a person would be forced to go home and, if he wanted, return, having had a meal. There is merit in that suggestion and something which would bear consideration.
The question of Sunday hours was raised also. Deputy Reynolds thought the morning hours might be shortened slightly because the present hours tended to interfere with the midday meal—that the husband would be in his local until 2.10 p.m. and so hold up the family midday meal. He felt also that the hours for the second part of the Sunday period should be changed from 7 p.m. to 11 p.m. rather than, as at present, from 4 p.m. until 10 p.m. That has some merit because, as he said, a lot of publicans, in any event, do not open their premises on Sundays until 6.30 p.m. or thereabouts. I would have some consideration also for the staff working in licensed premises. Such an arrangement would enable them to have a Sunday afternoon and evening meal with their families. It would be providing the facilities for the general public from 7 p.m. until 11 p.m., the normal recreation time on Sunday evenings, and would permit customers to spend the afternoon and early evening with their families also.
The question of seaside resorts raised by Deputy Brennan is a matter of considerable difficulty, on which I have had a lot of representations. Indeed, I can see the force behind such representations. In many of our seaside resorts, unfortunately, the pub is the only place of entertainment and perhaps shortens unduly the night's entertainment for people on holiday, who have not got the duty of working the following day. There would be real difficulty of definition here in deciding what is a "seaside resort" and what is a "holiday resort". Possibly "seaside resort" could be defined as being within X miles of the sea, or within sight of it. But, when one thinks of a town like Lisdoonvarna, which is purely a holiday resort, how does one deal with it? Then there is the inland town beside lakes, such as Killarney; indeed, in my own county, there is Athlone, in the middle of the Shannon where serious problems of definition would arise. I am giving thought to this problem to see if there is any solution, but my thoughts so far lead me to being pessimistic. That problem was raised in the context of alcoholism. Indeed, it was raised in two ways. Some people raised it as a factor contributing to excessive drinking, and there was the other side who did not want unduly restrictive hours either.
Deputies Fitzpatrick, Reynolds, H. Gibbons and Enright raised the question of special exemption orders. From representations I have had from youth clubs and leaders, I am aware that there has been concern about the operation of the facility for special exemption orders, concern that such facilities have been too easily available; that it would be stretching language as describing them as being special; that the meals served which have to be an integral part of a bona fide special event could hardly be described as bona fide meals, notwithstanding the provision in the Act that they might be presented to the court as being bona fide. But the reality to the customer might not be the same as the court was led to expect he would be receiving. Because of the publicity this aspect received, there has been a consciousness all round of the need for care in the granting of these special exemptions. I am giving it consideration to see if the law would require tightening. It is not an urgent problem but is a matter of some concern in parts of the country, a concern that has been well and properly expressed. Should the position deteriorate further, then remedial legislative action will have to be taken.
The question of rounds was raised by Deputies H. Gibbons, Carter and Briscoe. I agree completely with them that this is a pernicious habit. I gather from speeches made that it is essentially an Irish one. It has now reached proportions in our drinking society, so to speak, that it is a matter of serious concern to a person's honour that he be seen to meet his obligation to stand his round. When it reaches that stage, the thing becomes ridiculous. There is no doubt about it that it causes people to drink far more than they want or indeed need. Was it Deputy H. Gibbons who gave the example of the fisherman from England who came here with his son, who used to go to the local in the village where they stayed and found he became involved in rounds, was offered far more drink than he wanted and found the whole experience quite unpleasant? The late President Childers was very vocal in his condemnation of this practice and, on many occasions, urged the need for its abolition. There has to be a lead given. At some of their conventions the GAA gave a lot of publicity to the subject and requested their members to give a lead. It is a plea-that needs endorsement. The lead should be given by anybody who is concerned, and we all must be concerned about alcoholism, because it is a serious factor leading to excessive drinking. Again, speaking as a layman, too much drinking is possibly what leads to alcoholism. In clubs, football clubs, social clubs and sporting clubs it would be a great thing had some member the courage to propose it be a rule of the club that no member be allowed buy a round for another member. Of course, there would need to be an exemption in the case of visitors so that ordinary hospitality could be offered. But that would be a good practice between members of such clubs.
