Vol. 282 No. 6
I move:
That a sum not exceeding £1,714,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1975, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other services administered by that Office, and of the Public Record Office, and of the Keeper of State Papers and for the purchase of historical documents, etc.
I think Deputy Wilson earlier raised the matter of free legal aid and the position thereunder. Can the Minister throw any light on the current position regarding the free legal aid scheme and its proposed extension?
Is the Deputy referring to civil legal aid or criminal legal aid?
I am referring to the existing scheme which is only criminal and the defects that have been complained of. What is being done about them? Also can the Minister throw any light on Government thinking in regard to free legal aid in civil cases?
I understand the Minister is finalising arrangements for the appointment of a committee which will be representative of all the interests concerned, to examine as a matter of urgency complaints that have arisen in relation to the criminal legal aid scheme. Both the Incorporated Law Society and the Bar Council have nominated representatives to act as members of the committee. The solicitors who withdrew from the scheme on 1st September last agreed to renew their participation in the scheme as from 12th May. However, notwithstanding that the Bar Council have nominated members to act on the proposed committee, the barristers withdrew from the legal aid panel with effect from 28th May.
Does the Minister for Justice propose to leave the matter in that condition?
I have no information about the Minister's present plans in relation to that matter but I will pass on the Deputy's question to the Minister.
Previously I advocated certain measures in respect of Garda accommodation along the Border.
With respect, that would arise on the following Vote.
I asked the Minister— he probably overlooked it—if he could throw any light on Government thinking in regard to free legal aid in civil cases.
As the Deputy knows, the Minister set up a committee on 10th May. I think the Deputy is aware of the terms of reference of the committee. The committee invited submissions from the public, through the press, and practically all the groups and individuals who had indicated a desire to make submissions have done so. When the taking of evidence has been completed, which is expected to be in the very near future, the committee will be in a position to formulate their conclusions and recommendations. It is not intended to introduce a civil legal aid scheme pending the receipt of the committee's report.
Did the practising barristers make a submission? Was there not some matter of status——
I have no information about that. I will pass the query on to the Minister.
The item in this Estimate in regard to postal services is out of line with figures we have seen in other Estimates. There is a reduction in the 1975 Estimate as against the nine-month period in 1974 from £48,000 to £35,000. One of two things must have happened: either there was over use in the nine-month period of the postal services or there was some reason for an anticipated saving in the new year. Would the Minister like to say, or to comment on, the reason for this Estimate being out of line with all the others we have considered up to now? Maybe they do not intend to pay all their bills to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.
I do not think that would enter into it. The relations are good. I am afraid that I do not have that information. I apologise to the Deputy and I will ask the Minister for the information.
It is not good enough when we are passing Estimates for hundreds of millions of pounds to be treated in this way. The least we could expect would be to get answers to our questions to the Minister present.
As the House is aware, the Minister for Justice is absent on official business and that is the case with all the other Ministers who are not available here.
Arrangements should be made to have civil servants here to provide the answers to the Minister present.
Does the Minister mean that all the other Ministers except him are on official business?
I am on official business here.
The Minister is not making a good job of it.
Surely the Minister does not mean that every member of the Government except him and the Minister for Local Government are otherwise engaged outside the House?
I mean what I think should be clear to the House, that Ministers who are not available to answer questions in relation to their own Estimates which are being taken together are absent on official business. That is all I can say.
Their official business is to be here today to have their Estimates moved and passed by this House and to answer queries arising from them.
I have seen occasions——
No matter what the Minister has seen, that is the position.
I have seen many occasions when other Ministers have answered questions——
The Minister is too interested in issuing propaganda about RTE.
I have told the Deputy that I do not know the answer to the question and that I will communicate it to the Minister for Justice.
Surely this is an unfair way to treat an Opposition when by agreement of the Opposition a certain number of Estimates have been brought before the House? Surely it is in the interests of the people who have elected us to represent them that we get answers to our questions? Somebody should be in this House concerned with the Estimates we have before us who can give us the information we ask for. I record my disgust at the way we are being treated. This morning's activities are another exercise by the Government to try to convince the people that we are being given opportunities which in fact are being denied us by inadequate answering by substitutes for Ministers who are away.
If an arrangement has been come to with the Opposition to have Estimates taken, and Ministers are not present—there can be reasons for their absence—those Ministers should have arranged to have their Departmental advisers available so that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs would not have to apologise that he has not got the information.
Could the House be informed whether the Ministers dealing with Agriculture and Fisheries, Foreign Affairs, Social Welfare and Labour will be here later to answer their Question on the Order Paper and, if not, whether we could have those questions put back until they would be present?
We are not dealing with that matter at the moment.
It is fundamental to the business we are discussing.
It is very important. If during the remainder of this session we will have a situation where a Minister will come here to tell us the Minister concerned is not here and that the Minister present is only deputising, is it not time the Government should make arrangements so that if a Minister is unavoidably absent we will be provided with civil servants to advise the acting Minister?
Can I be advised if the following items will be discussed by the appropriate Ministers——
We will have to wait until these come up.
That is very unsatisfactory. Could we not now have an indication from the Government Chief Whip in regard to the availability of those Ministers? I suggest that we adjourn for five minutes to get that information.
Hear, hear.
