Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 26 Jun 1975

Vol. 282 No. 9

Financial Resolutions. - Local Authorities (Traffic Wardens) Bill, 1975: Report and Final Stages.

Mr. O'Molloy

I move amendment No. 1 in the names of Deputy Faulkner and myself:

In page 3, line 26, after "committed" to insert "at that place".

This amendment arises out of a discussion we had on the section on Committee Stage. We pointed to the difficulty about notices being affixed by traffic wardens possibly long after the offence or alleged parking offence or non-display of a tax disc had arisen. At that time I made the suggestion that some form of time limit would be placed on the affixing of the notice after the vehicle had been moved. I suggested various periods of hours which might be considered suitable. On reconsideration, I can see difficulties in regard to a time limit after the movement because whatever period one fixes could be regarded as either too long or too short in various circumstances. Accordingly we are of the opinion that the proper way in which to prevent notices being affixed long after the offence takes place would be to amend subsection (3) by providing that a notice can be affixed where a traffic warden has reasonable grounds for believing that an offence to which the section applies involving the use of a mechanically propelled vehicle is being or has been committed and then to add the words "at that place". That would get over the difficulty of fixing a time limit.

The point the Minister made yesterday that a problem could be created by the form of amendment we originally suggested, that in the case of a vehicle which was on a clearway, providing it remained on the clearway until after the time it ceased to be a clearway, it was possible under the form of amendment we suggested that a notice could not be affixed. That is the only objection the Minister had to what we were suggesting yesterday, and that point is met by the amendment because the vehicle would be remaining in the same place. It was simply that the category of the road would have changed from a clearway to an ordinary road after 6 p.m. or whatever the time would be but the vehicle would remain at that place and therefore the notice could be affixed. The only objection which the Minister saw to it yesterday would in that sense be overcome and the possible abuse or unfairness of attaching a notice hours or even days later would be prevented.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Tully)

I have had the section further considered and I am not prepared to accept the amendment because of the fact that I do not think it is necessary. It is in conflict with existing powers of wardens and the gardaí under section 1 of the 1961 Act.

Apart from that, no complaint of that sort has been made since 1961 about either gardaí or traffic wardens affixing tickets to cars afterwards. In addition, the wording of Deputy O'Malley's amendment does not make sense if he reads it in conjunction with the subsection. However, I am not objecting to it because of that but because I do not think it is necessary. It is suggested that the words "at that place" be inserted. At which place? There is no place mentioned.

Mr. O'Molloy

If "at that place" is not appropriate the words, "at a particular place" might be inserted.

Mr. Tully

That is not my main objection to it.

Mr. O'Malley

The Minister says there have been no complaints about these notices having been affixed after the offences being committed, but he would not be in a position to know. The Department would not be in a position to know. If persons thought they were being wrongfully treated they would go to the courts.

Mr. Tully

They can still do that.

Mr. O'Malley

They would explain the position to the justice and I assume he would dismiss the case. That would be the appropriate procedure for somebody so aggrieved. Few, if any, people in the circumstances would complain to the Department. Another thing I would bring to the Minister's attention is that the Bill makes provision whereby every local authority in the country, from the smallest upwards, will have authority to appoint traffic wardens. Up to now only four or five authorities did it and some of those had only one warden employed. The only places where they were employed in any substantial numbers were Dublin, Cork and Limerick. Therefore, experience of the working of it is limited in area and in terms of time. It is in very recent times that some of the five areas concerned have at all employed wardens or have asked the Garda Commissioner to employ them on their behalf.

I am not at all convinced that the subsection as it stands is not open to abuse. The fact that it has not been abused to date is not any indication it will not be abused in the future, because for the most part the enforcement of all traffic regulations was in the hands of the Garda Síochána. We will now be dealing with a new body who have not the training or the experience of the gardaí, and I do not think it is sufficient simply to say that because it was provided in the 1961 Act and operated almost exclusively by the Garda Síochána, the same thing will continue in relation to people who are not members of the Garda Síochána.

Mr. Tully

I should like to correct that. The Dublin and Cork warden systems are not in the hands of the Garda Síochána. Apart from that, an amendment to subsection (3) would also affect subsection (2) which states:

Where a traffic warden has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing or has committed an offence to which this section applies, he may deliver to the person a notice in the prescribed form stating—

Deputy O'Malley is attempting to amend one subsection. Other amendments would be required if this were done. A very big number of wardens have been operating very successfully since 1961 doing their jobs well, and as far as we are aware nobody made this complaint when the 1961 Bill was being debated. Deputy O'Malley said that aggrieved persons would likely go to the courts. That is a protection in itself. For those reasons I am satisfied with the section as it is.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Faulkner

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 4, line 45, after "authority" to add the following:

"and where the sums accruing to a local authority under section 3 exceed the expenses of a local authority under this Act, such excess shall be paid into the Road Fund".

During the Committee Stage we introduced an amendment which was ruled out of order by the Ceann Comhairle, I assume because it would impose a charge on the Exchequer. Our reasons for introducing this amendment are to avoid any costs being put on the rates or, on the other hand, avoiding a situation where the local authority might regard it as a means of collecting extra revenue. Because it was not possible for us to deal with the rates aspect, we rephrased the amendment.

Our main purpose in putting it forward is to ensure that local authorities will not use traffic wardens to increase their revenue. We also fear that particularly at holiday resorts there might be a temptation to pressurise people like tourists by following them very closely and in that way getting extra revenue. It might be a temptation particularly to the smaller authorities. So as to remove that possible temptation, we suggest the Minister might adopt this amendment.

The Minister said the money taken in fines would go to the local authority in whose area the offences were committed, and we think this would add to some extent to the temptation I have mentioned. Though the money might not necessarily be devoted to works in the area in which it is collected, nevertheless it will accrue to the Road Fund and that would remove the temptation to pressurise motorists.

Mr. Tully

There are a few misconceptions in the Deputy's mind. Local authorities do not pay moneys directly into the Road Fund. Disbursements from the Road Fund are for the Minister for Local Government subject to the sanction of the Minister for Finance who decides what money will be paid from the Exchequer into the Road Fund.

There is a very long procedure involved. Moneys collected by a tax office are lodged in the taxation account at the local bank, transferred later to the Central Bank and from there to the Exchequer and, as required, amounts needed are transferred from the Exchequer to the Road Fund account. I would draw the attention of Deputy Faulkner to section 3 (8) which states that moneys accruing to the local authority under this section shall be disposed of in accordance with regulations made by the Minister. That section has been passed.

Mr. Faulkner

Let us suppose that the Road Fund is not the appropriate one and that the money is returned to the Exchequer, would that prevent the Minister from deciding how it should be disposed of?

Mr. Tully

That would be a cumbersome and uneconomic procedure. Some people seem to think that traffic wardens will be advised to catch the stranger. Unless he is breaking the law nobody need fear any action by traffic wardens. That is an important point. All of us have expressed the view that the motorist who parks either dangerously or in a prohibited place or who fails to tax his car or to display a tax disc should be dealt with by the law. This is for the good of the general public. To suggest that instead of doing that traffic wardens will be waiting at the tourist office for a strange car to enter the area is unreasonable. It is unfair both to the local authorities and to the traffic wardens—those already in existence and those to be appointed. These will be decent people who will be doing a reasonable job so it is wrong that any attempt should be made to denigrate them in this way.

A local authority would be entitled to recoup the money that is being collected in their area. Deputy Faulkner's fears in this respect are totally unfounded, and I suggest that we leave the section as it is.

Mr. Briscoe

I do not think that Deputy Faulkner was referring specifically to traffic wardens taking advantage of the unsuspecting visitor. Perhaps what was in his mind was that a local authority, consisting of the local elected representatives, might see here a handy way of getting extra revenue for various pet schemes. Can the Minister say what will be the position where a local authority decide to institute a £4 or £5 fine for an ordinary parking offence?

Mr. Tully

They cannot do that. The fine will be laid down by regulation of the Minister.

Mr. Briscoe

Therefore, the local authority cannot set the fine at any stage?

Mr. Tully

That is so.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill received for final consideration.

Agreed to take remaining Stage today.