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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Oct 1975

Vol. 285 No. 2

Vote 48: Social Welfare (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £38,700,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1975, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare, for certain services administered by that Insurance Fund, and for sundry grants.
—(The Taoiseach.)

I have the greatest sympathy for the Parliamentary Secretary these days and, with other speakers, I wish to congratulate him on the efforts he is making to face up to the difficult situation in which he finds himself. The enormous addition to the number of unemployed, which continues to grow, has exacerbated what is a very serious problem. Unfortunately the latest information available from the NESC and the Central Bank is most worrying and, against the background of the many forecasts that have been made, including the gloomy forecast of the Minister for Finance, one must have sympathy for the over-worked officials of the Department. The Parliamentary Secretary is making strenuous efforts to try to keep payments in line to cope with the rapidly decreasing value of money and unchecked galloping inflation.

Today an expert has told us these are a tremendous waste of our national resources. This may not be the right place to make the suggestion but, in order to ease the load of the Department, the Parliamentary Secretary might enlist the assistance of his colleagues to produce some plan to alleviate the problem, to shorten the dole queue and to stabalise the value of the £ so that social welfare benefits will not be eroded in value.

I would have had more sympathy for the long and informative speech of the Parliamentary Secretary had he not tried to make excuses for other Members of the Government. His job is to try to ensure that the recipients of social welfare payments do not suffer. He should refrain from making the old excuse we are tired of hearing in the last few years, namely, that in common with other countries we are suffering a recession. The NESC at last have pointed out that domestic inflation accounts for at least twothirds of the rate of inflation we are experiencing.

Today the Parliamentary Secretary stated:

In a period of worldwide recession, when the stagnation or decline of markets results in at best a standstill in production and national income there are inevitable pressures on public expenditure. When to the effects of recession must be added the impact of severe inflation even greater strains are certain.

This is not the occasion on which to deal exclusively with the effects of inflation but it is necessary to make reference to the lack of effort to do something even at this late stage. It is now acknowledged that something must be done at home with regard to domestic inflation. It was easy to say that the situation was due to factors outside our control, that other countries were undergoing the same experience. Now other countries are grappling with the situation, they have brought it under control, they are stabilising the cost of living and in some cases they have achieved a decrease in the cost of living. People who have been conservative and careful in their past estimations now estimate that unemployment will reach 140,000 by spring of next year. That is a horrible outlook and it will create even greater difficulties for the Parliamentary Secretary and the Department. We hope the worst will not happen but if things continue as the economic indicators point the situation is one to be feared.

Perhaps it would be possible for the Government to take emergency measures, to alter the policy they have been pursuing in the past and to check the factors that have been causing inflation. These are the increasing demands for higher rates of wages, salaries and incomes generally and indirect taxation which directly contributes to inflation and to rising prices.

It was amusing to see that after the tremendous injection of subsidies there was a slight fall in the cost of living which lasted for a day or two but immediately afterwards a new list of increases were announced.

It is my estimation that in the past two years prices have risen by twothirds more than they might justifiably have risen. Somebody must tackle seriously this whole problem. It is now accepted generally, even by the Government, that external causes are responsible for only one-third of the inflation rate. Therefore the responsibility lies with the Government to tackle this problem immediately.

The Parliamentary Secretary has generalised to some extent with regard to what the future may hold for social welfare and has told us that to interpret this policy goal in practical terms it is necessary to concentrate attention on a number of key considerations and he lists these as being: the overall purposes of social policy; the establishment of a workable and up-to-date legislative base for the development of the whole service; a planned development of the social insurance system with a complementary support provision of social assistance and personal social services; a coherent provision for a research input; and a clear view of the special place of policies against poverty and in favour of redistribution in the overall context.

These are remarkable generalisations in relation to future policy. Most of them are related to what should have been done by means of the use of EEC funds. When we sold the idea of membership of the EEC we believed that certain benefits would accrue to this country to a much greater extent than has been our experience so far. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary, whose party opposed entry, might now with some justification say that we oversold the idea of membership.

The whole spirit of the Treaty of Rome was to have a common social economic policy which would ensure that no one economy would lag behind another, that there would be a coordinated effort to ensure improvements in standards of living and in the quality of life generally, an achievement which could not be reached without the co-operation and the confederation of the member countries. However there does not appear to be any great effort by any of the member States— least of all the new members—to bring that about. The British took action to justify their ego regarding the EEC and were not very concerned as to whether they broke with traditional rules in order to satisfy their election promises.

We have been particularly careful not to offend any of the conventions which we adhere to so strictly in terms of the EEC. Nobody could be satisfied with the social policy, for instance, and there is not much point in so far as the social or regional funds are concerned for a Government Minister to spend time referring to the paltry sums we are getting. It is the task of those involved in the EEC to ensure that we get what we were supposed to get. These people must assume some of the load which to a great extent has been caused by our not being able to live up to what membership promised originally and which apparently was justified at the time of our accession. This is not a time merely for talking or for making excuses. It is a time when extraordinary efforts must be made to bring about a better state of affairs at a period which can only be described as a serious emergency in our economy.

Now when there is evidence of an upturn in other economies it is not enough for us merely to hope that some of this improvement will automatically come our way. Nobody is attaching any credibility to those statements to the effect that the difficulties have been caused by factors outside our control. Therefore I am surprised that the brief presented to us this morning devotes a few pages to making excuses for the decline in our economy. Even those people who have been rather kind to the Government—one might be forgiven for suspecting them of being influenced in some way—and whose views were counter to those of the Central Bank regarding the causes of inflation are compelled now to point out the whole facts of the situation and to indicate that there is no other way out of the dilemma but to take action at home.

On a recent occasion when an international body were discussing common monetary policy with the President of the US, they were told by him to go home to their own countries, to look after their own economies and not to expect America to pay for everything at a time when the world is sore and bleeding. We are a sovereign country. Our Government are in charge of our affairs. In other words, our sovereignty has not been affected to any great extent by our membership of the EEC. Therefore we have our own job to do. It is for us to do that job and not to blame all our difficulties on outside sources.

I should like now to deal with some of the points in relation to social welfare generally. The first is the question of unemployment exchanges throughout the country. The Department are put to the pin of their collar these days trying to cope with the changing circumstances and the increasing burden which the present economic situation has imposed on them. In those circumstances the Department are inclined to forget the importance of the shop window, the unemployment exchanges.

As the Parliamentary Secretary is aware, the amount of remuneration paid to the manager of an employment exchange who is operating on a contracting basis is never sufficient to carry out efficiently the job that is required of him. This is borne out by the fact that when an office reaches the stage where it must be taken over by the Department the running costs are increased greatly. Therefore I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that branch managers of employment exchanges are paid adequately, that they are paid to an extent where they can employ adequate staff for the keeping of records and the carrying out of the other duties involved and also to ensure that the work can be done within reasonable hours. It is well-known that some branch managers must work into the night in order to be able to take advantage of the extra few pounds that make it worthwhile to run these establishments. It is no longer possible to employ staff without paying them well. Irrespective of any improvements that have been effected recently employment exchanges still require a good deal of thought from the Department. I ask that these establishments be brought up to a standard equivalent to that which pertains in those offices run by a Department. It would enable records to be better kept. It would ensure a better filing system and generally better staffing. The life of the branch manager would be made tolerable. The hours he works at the moment are far in excess of those worked by other public servants.

The evolution of social welfare since the last war has been spectacular. The scope of benefits has been inextended and rates have been increased from time to time. I had the pleasure of seeing the extension of the service in a somewhat significant direction. The Parliamentary Secretary admits there is still quite a distance to go with regard to effecting improvements but we will soon reach the stage at which most deserving cases will have been brought under the welfare umbrella. There are some cases which deserve particular attention. Any provision made for the aged and for widows, particularly widows with dependants, is welcomed by every section. Society generally has become alert to the needs for the redistribution of the national wealth in order to give deserving sections what they are justly entitled to. Most people hope to live to a ripe old age and it would be a good thing for people to know they will be provided for when they retire or grow old.

I see the Exchequer has to come to the rescue of the social welfare services to the tune of 59 per cent. I believe the real solution lies in a scheme of national insurance to which everyone will contribute and on which they can draw should that become necessary. It will not be charity because they will have contributed to the scheme. The self-employed and even the unemployed should contribute to such a scheme, as they do in other countries.

There is at the moment a kind of euphoria with regard to the amount of benefit people are receiving. There are abuses. It is no good putting our heads in the sand and pretending abuses do not occur. There are abuses. The pay-related benefit scheme has added to the amount one may be entitled to in the event of unemployment and has made it possible for people who do the odd nixers during their unemployment to bring their income up to a reasonable standard. While the Minister gives an assurance that the law will be used to ensure abuses are eliminated, he says that abuses are not as common as people may think. I believe they are pretty common. My regret when I was Minister was that, if these abuses did not occur, more money would have been available for distribution to those entitled to benefit.

The cost of administration at 7 per cent, is relatively small. Most people are ignorant of the day-to-day working of the Department, of the thousand repetitive jobs which have to be done day in and day out. When one change is made in any rate of payment the complete assembly line is put out of action and everything has to be rejigged, with additional staff being required and overtime working. In those circumstances 7 per cent is a reasonably good performance and compares very favourably with other Departments.

Reference has often been made to an overall comprehensive social welfare policy. Raising hopes and making projections as to what may be done, should be done or could be done does not amount to a comprehensive social welfare policy. We worked on the resources available to us and, as the public conscience became alerted into an awareness of the need, it was much easier to extract by way of taxation or otherwise payments to push up social welfare schemes towards a more comprehensive type of scheme, bringing in people who had not hitherto been brought in. Most people are now brought into social welfare and it is now a question mainly of qualifications and the amounts paid. When a new group is brought in the scheme initially is limited. As time goes on the scheme is extended. When I first introduced the dependent relative allowance we could cover only those who had left insurable employment to care for aged parents. That was the beginning of an excellent scheme. The idea was to obviate the necessity for sending old people into institutions so that more of them would be kept at home. The next year we extended it to uninsured people. It was not necessary for them to show they had left insured employment. Then we extended it to a wider list of relatives, nieces, in-laws, and so on. It can be extended much further.

I personally appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary not to lose sight of the importance of that scheme. It can be extended tremendously to meet a need which requires attention. We all get many letters dealing with this matter. For instance, a man and his wife may be living in a house with an old age pensioner who may be confined to bed, or maybe two old age pensioners. They are not allowed anything for taking care of them because they are not living alone except for one other person. If two people are living in a house, two brothers or two sisters, and looking after old people, they do not qualify. The result is that nowadays, with rapidly rising costs and the difficulties these people find to exist on their incomes, applications are made for admission to old people's homes where it costs five times as much as what the extra payment would be to keep one person at home, and maybe in some cases seven times as much.

If the prescribed relatives scheme, which provides an extra allowance on the old people's pensions for having people to care for them and look after them in their homes, is properly expanded to cover a much wider range that it covers at present—as I say, when it started it was rather limited but we were able to improve it three times—and to include most cases where old people require constant care and attention, the number of old people going into homes will be reduced.

I would go even further and include people who are prepared to take an old person out of a home and care for him or her in their own homes. They should be given a generous allowance. Even if they were given half what it costs to keep people in homes, they would feel they were very well paid, indeed, having regard to the per capita costs in old people's homes at present. This would be a very generous payment towards the care of old people in their own homes.

Even though old people's homes have been improved, some of them have a vast distance to go to reach what would be regarded in modern times as an acceptable standard. No matter how good the standard may be in those homes, old people will never be as happy as they would be sitting by a fireside with their own relations or some neighbours who might be given a reasonable weekly fee for looking after them. That is a direction in which our social services could move in the future. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to deal with this when he is outlining his hopes for an improvement in the services in the future.

I do not know whether it is appropriate to discuss the conditions in old people's homes on this Estimate. The Department of Health are conjointly involved in the matter of better conditions for old people. I visited a certain home recently to see at first hand what the conditions were. It was not in my own constituency. It was clean. The old people, who were mostly mentally handicapped or mentally deficient in some way, were kept clean. The food was reasonable. By the standards which prevailed 30 or 40 years ago it would be regarded as excellent. The beds were clean and quite good. That is not everything. That was all they had: a clean home, reasonably good food, and a bed. They had no social life and no type of recreation. They were sitting around in a large room stacked up in rows looking into space. For those who were capable of following a programme on television, a television set was available. We need to do much more in 1975 if we are to improve the conditions in these homes.

The first question you must ask yourselves when you visit such a home is: how would you like your own mother to be in it? Does it measure up to what you feel a home should be like? If we apply that standard, we find we have a long way to go. As I say, the Department of Health may be more directly involved here than the Department of Social Welfare. The Parliamentary Secretary who has a social conscience could get the ear of his Minister, who is also Minister for Health, to deal with these matters. I strongly advocate the use of homes only where no other means of caring for old people are available.

I know the Deputy appreciates that this is more relevant to the Estimate for the Department of Health.

I saw the Leas-Cheann Comhairle becoming impatient.

I was allowing a reference.

It is not unrelated. I am getting away from it now. I was dealing with it in the context of conditions for old people and retired people and the Department of Social Welfare are very much involved there. I want to deal now with payments made by way of retirement pensions, widow's pensions, orphan's pensions and particularly widows who have children. When I was Minister I often said the widow without children is not entitled to the same sympathetic consideration as the widow with a number of small children. She should be adequately provided for to ensure that she can bring up those children as well as if their father were alive. That is not asking for too much.

The widow with no dependants is not very different from a single woman. She has suffered a tremendous loss and has been put in the position where she has to readjust herself to employment. Perhaps she has been left without an income. I do not for one moment object to what she is paid at present. If she has a non-contributory pension, if she goes out to work—irrespective of what the Minister may claim about having improved the situation—she still loses most of her pension if she earns any worthwhile income. There is something very wrong there as compared with the widow with the contributory pension who can take employment without any loss of pension.

I want to deal with some matters which occur to me frequently and of which I have had experience in the past. One problem which gives rise to hardship is when old age pensioners are invited by their emigrant family to join them for an extended holiday. This applies very much on the western seaboard. Perhaps the mother has been invited to Birmingham, London or even to America. Instead of the family coming home on a visit they pool their resources to bring the parents out for a holiday. Even to get the pension with the 13 weeks' absence permitted becomes a problem and several letters must be written to have the matter straightened out. Once it is certified that an old person is going on holiday for a year, two years or whatever may be the duration involved—they are unlikely to earn any income going abroad at that age—their pension should be paid irrespective of the length of their duration abroad. Indeed, as happens frequently in Donegal, they move in to live with relatives across the Border permanently and, in certain circumstances, it is possible to have the pension paid to them there but not without difficulty. There is sometimes a lack of income for a long period while the matter is being investigated. Those are some of the things which could very well be improved and which would be much appreciated by all concerned.

The movement towards relieving the Exchequer of its contribution to the social insurance fund is not one I ever favoured. It is something which should be brought about only when we have reached a stage of fuller development than at present. This country is making strides to improve the standard of living and generally expand the economy so that we might justifiably compare ourselves with more highly developed countries which we are prone to do for certain reasons at present, reasons which are activated by a desire for propaganda. But at present we are certainly not comparable with more highly developed countries and while we are not the Exchequer will have to come to the rescue of the social insurance fund to the extent of something better than the 24 per cent contributed this year.

I think the figure of 24 per cent was mentioned in the Parliamentary Secretary's brief today. But the movement is towards reaching that stage already achieved in other countries where the employer and employee will be made responsible for the entire cost of the social insurance stamp, plus the cost of administration. One thing rapidly becoming rare in this country at present is the animal called an employer because there is so much heat on him it has become almost a dirty word to be described as an employer of people. One must pay several different types of taxes. One must suffer being called a profiteer. One must be prepared to foot the bill for every increase in wages, not complain and almost thank God for being allowed live at all. A wrong climate has been created in relation to these people. The amount the employer pays now, which is 58 per cent of the stamp—the employee paying the remaining 42 per cent—places too great a strain on such people, even on the employee. Let us take the example of a little girl working in a shop in Dublin now. She has to contribute approximately £9 or £10 a month to the State when she gets her pay packet. I do not think that is right. I do not think it could be justified in a country still so far from being fully developed. Rather we should wait for the time when we have reached a stage of full development or near it before we compare ourselves with other more advanced and highly developed countries. These are the type of people we want. We want as many people employed as possible. We need to encourage employers to ensure that those who invest in employment, whether it be in industry, business, the services, tourism or any thing else, get a fair return on their money. That cannot be shown these days and, as I said in the House on previous occasions in relation to such matters, at present anybody thinking of providing employment here would have to give it serious consideration when one thinks of all the headaches lying ahead and, after that, to be categorised as some sort of parasite on society. This myth has got to be exploded.

I do not accept at all the sentiments expressed in a paragraph at the end of the Parliamentary Secretary's script where it was said that the reforms necessary are sometimes misunderstood by people who think that by bringing about proper social conditions or social schemes retards advancement or development of the economy. If we are to have decent social services and welfare payments here extending over ten or 12 different Departments—the Department of Education, Department of Local Government, Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, to name but a few, all of whom have their social services as well as social welfare—we must ensure the resources are available to support them. It is a prerequisite of any good scheme that the source of wealth to fund it is guaranteed, which requires a great deal of co-operation and assistance not available at present. The fundamental requirement of any proper scheme is to ensure that the source from which payments are made is given the necessary encouragement and is able to generate the wealth which is then distributed to the people entitled to benefit.

I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the effort he is making in the most difficult times ever experienced in this country to keep abreast with the declining values of money, to try to keep social welfare recipients paid something in keeping with their requirements and the actual necessaries of life. One does not have to look at statistics to see the percentage increase in the cost of goods. I was in an old age pensioner's home in Donegal the other day and he has just paid £28 for a tractor load of turf. Ten years ago that would have cost £4. That is only an example of the type of increase such people have to face nowadays and is applicable to everything that goes into such a house. The Parliamentary Secretary, in his Herculean effort to keep payments in line with the rapidly declining value in money and maintain payments to the extending queues of unemployed people, has a tough task and one not to be envied.

I should like to see the stage reached where indexation would be applicable to social welfare payments and pensions as it is to employment. There has been a good deal of discussion for some time now on indexation with regard to employment and it was something which occupied a good deal of my attention when I was in the Department of Labour. At that time very few people were converted to the idea of any scheme of adjustments in accordance with the consumer price index movements. Most of them would agree it ought to be adjusted upwards, but if it was a drop then they all worried. However I think we should be prepared to accept a scheme even if it referred only to the upward movement. Once a proper basis was accepted, indexation of the social welfare payments would be reasonably fair and would be acceptable. The fact that the October payment was made was a movement in that direction. The Minister knew that nothing was going to happen in the meantime in regard to arresting galloping costs and increased prices. It is unfortunate but now that these payments have been made we do not look forward to any brighter future in the months ahead. The outlook for the spring is dismal. The National Economic and Social Council predict continuing increases in unemployment figures. The Central Bank point to a similar serious situation. The numbers of industries that are closing and the numbers of liquidations that are taking place are increasing monthly.

In these circumstances the people who are in charge of social welfare have a grim time. I should like to give them every possible encouragement. I was glad the Minister paid tribute to them in his statement because I have some idea of what goes on in the different sections which are now spread over half the city. If the Department were fully staffed to meet the administration of services the public want they could do with almost double the staff they have. I have practical experience of the situation and I say that without reservation. I wish them the best of luck and hope that there may be better days ahead.

The question of social welfare is one of constant updating and keeping abreast of developments and the problems of today. It is therefore necessary that the Department of Social Welfare would equip themselves to deal with the everchanging situation and the ever-changing demands placed upon different sections of the community. We have many lessons to learn from the systems that have been developed in other countries and indeed many lessons to learn from both the mistakes and advances we have made ourselves over the years.

The Minister stated in his brief that there were 32,000 more people on the live register now than at the same time last year. The Minister goes on to say:

In every one of these cases there is hardship either in financial terms, or in terms of worry, disillusionment and the loss of self-respect which so often accompanies idleness. The realities of the present situation are very clear to all those engaged in the direction and implementation of policy in the social services area.

The Parliamentary Secretary said two years ago that there were 25,000 people living below the poverty line. How many people today are living below the poverty line? Far in excess of the 25,000 that were there when the present Parliamentary Secretary and present Government took up office and the indications are that the number of people below the poverty line in years to come will be very much greater. Welfare assistance of one type or another is not a solution to our problems. The solution is to put people back to work. It is necessary and desirable to shorten the dole queues by putting people back to work so that they will not become disillusioned, so that there will be no loss of self-respect. The Parliamentary Secretary indicates that these are the realities. Indeed they are the realities.

From time to time we get a picture or geography lessons of what is happening in other countries and one Minister after another tells us in this House about the problems in Denmark, in France, in Germany and in the United States. We did not elect the Government of Denmark, of Germany or of the United States. We elected an Irish Government to look after our affairs and our problems are their problems. No amount of blameplacing will absolve them from their responsibilities. Much of our present difficulty is their responsibility because of the manner in which they dealt with the economic situation.

The Parliamentary Secretary tells us that the resources to cope with these problems are limited and that room for manoeuvre is restricted. That is quite true. As I have said, the social welfare code must be updated to keep abreast of the times and to keep abreast of pressures and advances. Looking back on the past one can readily see that advances have been made over the last two to five years. This is part of the normal progress of a nation. It is part of the normal progress that legislation would be updated, that people would be taken from the poverty line and given the necessities of life, which many of them have not now got. These are not my words. These are the words of the Parliamentary Secretary. Two years ago there were 25,000. Today, how many? He did not give us the figures for the last two years, but they must be substantially greater. Those of us who walk through our constituencies know full well the great problems that confront families in the built-up areas.

Let us examine the situation in this city. In Dublin Corporation there are over 300 people who owe over £500 rent on their corporation houses, one person owes £1,600 rent, another owes £1,380 back rent and another owes £1,300 back rent. There must be a reason for this. The Government must accept responsibility for this and must ensure that this situation does not develop.

At the moment over £1½ million is owed in rent to Dublin Corporation. There is a shortfall in relation to local authority finance. Who pays that? It is the widow, the orphan and the unemployed. The Minister is giving money to them with one hand and is taking it back with the other. We are often told about the great men in the country, the actors and the politicians. I heard somebody say at a meeting the other day that, while America has Ford and Bob Hope, Ireland has Cosgrave and no hope. That sums up the situation.

The Parliamentary Secretary told us about the loss of self respect of those who are unemployed. We want to see those people back at work. That is the responsibility of the Government which they cannot shirk, no matter how much they try to cloak the situation. They gave additional social welfare benefits to make up their own deficiencies but that is no solution to the problem. It is not lip service that is required but action to put people back to work.

The Parliamentary Secretary's brief did not give any hope to those on the dole queues or to those living on the poverty line. Any additional money given by the Department is needed to relieve the dreadful situation which now faces the weaker section of the community. No words of mine could convey to the House the dreadful tragedies facing people in the built-up areas of Dublin where there is large scale unemployment. In almost every home there are up to three members of the family making their way to the labour exchanges every morning.

We have heard a lot about plans in the pipelines. These pipelines seem to be full of plans. It is a wonder the Government would not produce a plan to relieve the situation, take the people off the dole queues and help those who are trying to meet their responsibilities in full. The Government have a much wider responsibility than giving a person 25p, 50p or a £1 increase in benefits. That is only an excuse to cover up the blunders of the Government, who are directly responsible for the economic situation we are now facing.

We must keep updating our legislation on social welfare. No credit is due to any Minister, no matter to what Government he belongs, for bringing in new schemes to keep abreast of the world in relation to the necessities required by people and the additions required to allow them live a normal life. The Parliamentary Secretary is a forward social thinker and possibly has not the finances he requires. Whatever Minister is in charge of social welfare he has a responsibility in relation to the weaker sections of the community to ensure that they can exist during the terrible times the Parliamentary Secretary has outlined in his speech.

We were told by the Parliamentary Secretary that there is an additional 32,000 on the live register this year but there are many more unemployed. There are the school-leavers, who are not included and who do not get social welfare benefits. These people will also suffer from loss of self-respect and all the other things that accompany idleness. There are professional people who are not on the live register who are also unemployed. There are out-workers, who are not on the live register and who are unemployed.

The live register does not give a true picture of the great problem in relation to the unemployment which confronts this nation. It is far in excess of the 105,000 people mentioned in this House when we ask for the number unemployed. The figure would be closer to 160,000 if a realistic picture of all those unemployed was known to the House and to the Government. When questions are put to responsible Members of the Government the replies indicate that they do not know how many people are unemployed other than those on the live register.

It is dreadful that the Government do not know the total number of people unemployed. How can any Department plan for the future if they have not got this kind of information? Apparently they want to close their eyes to the problems that will face the country for many years to come. We have now been told that a census will not be taken in the near future so in future years when we want to develop an overall plan we will not have information available to us.

The Government merely convey to the House the statistics they get from the Statistics Office of people on the live register. While there are 32,000 more people on the live register this year than last year and while there are indications that there will be another 30,000 on it during the next few months, where do we go from there? At some stage there will be a very serious financial situation within the Government. Will they then desert the nation, as they did on other occasions, in the middle of the night and leave all these problems to some other Government to clear up? We want to know the full story.

If Deputies were acquainted with the entire proplem we could get together and express our ideas in regard to it and make suggestions to meet it but we require to know the whole story. Many of the advances made are inadequate to meet the rapid decline in the value of money and much is given with one hand and taken back with the other. As I pointed out in Dublin alone we have £1.5 million rent arrears due to Dublin Corporation. The widows and orphans have been given some assistance by the Department of Social Welfare on the one hand and it has been taken back to meet the shortfall on the other.

There are serious abuses within the social welfare code. Some sections are not getting enough assistance to meet their requirements while in other sections there are grave abuses of which the Department, the Parliamentary Secretary and every Minister are aware for a considerable period. These have not been rectified. It may take courage to rectify them but it is necessary that it should be done whether the abuses are inside or outside this House. I call on the Parliamentary Secretary now to take immediate action where there are known abuses to ensure that justice is done to the few people who are paying in full and would gladly pay to assist those who were their fellow workers at one stage and are now on the labour exchange but do not want to pay for those who are abusing the services. If the Parliamentary Secretary and the Government do not take action, this type of cowardice will spread to other areas.

These abuses are prevalent on the one hand and on the other we have depressed sections who are not getting sufficient and who are the victims of the abuses. This is a difficult matter to tackle and requires courage. It is easy to say in the House: "We are going to give additional benefits"; it is much more difficult to say: "We are going to ensure that the known abuses are eliminated". One brings a measure of popularity while the other may bring unpopularity among a small section. I urge the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that justice is done and that money that can be made available will be made available to those in need.

Whatever we do, we cannot do enough for the aged and disabled. Many of them have spent their lives helping to build up industry and build up the nation in many ways. We offer them the odd 50p or £1 increase. They are entitled to much more but they get what is available. We cannot give adequate recognition to the work they have done over the years in many ways in dark and difficult days in conditions under which we would not expect people to work nowadays. I hope that next year the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to say not that there are 32,000 more on the live register but that there is a decline. If there is no decline, it will be an indication of the failure of the Government to meet their responsibilities and ensure that they are doing their part to maintain people's self-respect and see that they are not disillusioned and have not the worries outlined in the Parliamentary Secretary's speech.

We hear of abuses regarding pay-related benefit. That legislation was introduced for a very good reason. I believe the State had an obligation to bring in such a scheme to ensure that people who had made commitments, whether in house purchase or otherwise, would be in a position to honour them so that we would not have the tragedies of the past when people had to leave their houses and sell their furniture and belongings to buy food. The pay-related scheme was designed to ensure that the pressure would be taken off. It was fully justified. I hope that the many who are drawing this benefit will within a short time be able to meet their commitments from pay packets from employers. Social welfare benefits are no solution to the unemployment problem. We must get the people back to work and if we fail in that we are in an era of no hope and there is no hope for many people at present.

I should like to pay tribute to the many hard-working and much-abused personnel of the Department of Social Welfare. I know, as all responsible people know, that they are subject to all types of abuse from time to time through no fault of their own. Some of them are expected to shoulder responsibility for inefficient Ministers— not the Minister for Social Welfare but Ministers dealing with the economy —or the Government as a whole. The abuse is poured out on the first official encountered in the employment exchange or the Department. The staff are over-worked and highly efficient in many cases. Members of the House who have been dealing with the Department can have nothing but the height of praise for the efficiency of the officials in providing information and in processing claims and in performing other services required by Deputies from time to time. I have never had occasion to complain about officials of the Department of Social Welfare. My only complaint about that Department is that I find difficulty in making telephone communication with them. The officials are most courteous and assist Deputies in every way. Some of the queries posed by Deputies require a great deal of research and some of the complaints made by constituents are without foundation, but the officials are always tolerant and understanding.

I should like to know if there has been any updating of the survey on poverty which we read about two years ago. How many people are now living below the poverty line? It is necessary that Deputies have this figure so that they can have a global picture of the problems involved. Two years ago the Parliamentary Secretary indicated that 25,000 people were living below the poverty line. In my constituency the number living below the poverty line has increased greatly in the last 12 months. I hope some thought is given to the suggestions put forward by Deputy Brennan. He said that to be an employer in some cases was a dirty job, but we should remember that it is employers we want. We want people to give employment so that workers can return home with a pay packet rather than a dole cheque. Those who give employment, comply with regulations and meet wage demands should not be abused, although they have been abused in this House on occasions.

Many workers have pointed out to me that only a small group are called upon to pay the increases in taxes and, at the same time, meet social insurance commitments. The number is dwindling daily. It has reduced by 32,000 since last year and I expect that it will have reduced by a further 30,000 within a few months. How long can these people pay? Where will the money come from?

The Parliamentary Secretary's speech was an elaborate and detailed one. He informed us that the qualifying age for non-contributory old-age pensions was being reduced to 67. He also told us that it was the intention to reduce this limit further. This is desirable. It is necessary that we keep abreast of the times and that our legislation is updated. Many people are entitled to further benefits because those they received in recent months have been eroded by price increases. The reduction of prices on some items was another bit of whitewashing ably portrayed on the television and the media. However, if we examine the breadbasket now we find that the additional money given to recipients of social welfare benefit was eaten up soon after it was granted. An examination of the consumer price index reveals grave defects because the necessities of life which old people must purchase weekly are not recorded.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 28th October, 1975.
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