Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Oct 1975

Vol. 285 No. 4

Vote 22: Garda Síochána.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Cooney)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £11,007,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1975, for the salaries and expenses of the Garda Síochána, including pensions, etc; for payments of compensation and other expenses arising out of service in the Local Security Force; for the payment of certain witnesses' expenses; and for payment of a grant-in-aid.

The additional sum is required to meet extra expenditure arising on the Vote which was not foreseen when the original Estimate was being prepared.

It was not possible to seek the authority of the Dáil for this Supplementary Estimate before the summer recess as it was not clear at that stage what the eventual position was likely to be in regard to expenditure on overtime and so on, or indeed whether there might be savings on other subheads of the Vote which woud offset the extra money required.

In fact, it was necessary to wait until after the end of September, in order to have the expenditure returns for the first nine months of the year, before an accurate estimate could be framed as to what amount of money would be required for the full year.

Of the total extra sum required, £4,623,000 is needed to meet the cost of the extra pay granted to the Garda Síochána by arbitration at the end of 1974 in respect of work done on weekends, on public holidays and at night, including arrears for the year 1974. £2,666,000 is required to meet the cost of applying to the Garda Síochána the increases in pay under the national wage agreements, which were not provided for in the 1975 Estimate, and £60,000 represents the cost of extra pay to Garda Superintendents granted by the arbitration board. These sums contain an element in respect of overtime. An additional £3,000,000 is also needed in respect of overtime over and above the sum of £3,500,000 provided in the original Estimate, which, in turn, was almost £1,500,000 greater than the previous year's provision on a 12 month basis. The pay and allowances for the increase of 125 in the strength of the force authorised by the Government in January, 1975, necessitates a further provision of £250,000.

The balance of £408,000 is needed for payment to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs of the additional cost of telephone and teleprinter services and for the extra sum required for employers' contributions under the Social Welfare Acts.

Payments for Garda overtime have been increasing at a very rapid rate in the last two years to such an extent that, by August, 1975, they were running at an annual rate of about £9,000,000. Even making full allowance for our internal situation, this accelerating growth in the rate of overtime payments required to have the brake applied. This was done by arranging a selective cut-back in the amount of overtime. The cut-back introduced is estimated to effect a reduction of about £1,000,000 on this year's payments which will amount to about £8 million. This reduction is, however, relatively modest when seen in relation to the total cost of Garda services which amount to £52 million. Overtime payments are still running at a very high rate in comparison with previous years. In this connection the amount paid in overtime in 1972-73 was £2,524,359 as compared with about £8,000,000 in the current year and I cannot recall any unusual worry over the level of policing in that year.

In implementing the cut-back on overtime the Commissioner was given discretion as to where economies could be effected, with particular reference to securing the safety of the citizen. Although exaggerated accounts of cutbacks in services have appeared from time to time, there has been no diminution in essential Garda services.

The security situation continues to make heavy demands on Garda resources. Already this year there have been several incidents that have involved the Garda and the Army in large scale security operations for which substantial Garda overtime expenditure was necessary. The Garda Síochána have deployed large numbers for duty, for example, in providing protection at Portlaoise Prison and in dealing with the attempted break-out of prisoners from the prison in March last, the murder of Garda Reynolds in September and the kidnapping of Dr. Herrema this month.

I can assure the House that there was no stint as regards the resources made available in connection with any of these events. I know there has been widespread admiration for the success which has been attending Garda operations. Consideration of this whole area raises the important question of the deployment of the existing force and of increasing its strength. However, it would be premature to take a decision to strengthen the Garda Síochána until the management consultants currently employed to investigate the management of the force have submitted their report. This report too should be very useful in enabling the authorities to make fresh assessments of many aspects of the Garda including their deployment.

I commend this Supplementary Estimate to the House in the knowledge that all Members would wish to join me in paying tribute to the members of the force for their services and loyalty.

Mr. Andrews

I can understand the reason for the brevity of the Minister's speech, which is acceptable in the present circumstances. In the last part of his speech he said there has been widespread admiration for the success that has been attending Garda operations. He particularly refers to the provision of protection for Portlaoise Prison. In dealing with the attempted break-out of prisoners from that prison last March he mentioned the expeditious manner in which the Garda came into contact with the alleged murderers of Garda Reynolds. These people have been charged before the court to answer for these crimes which it is alleged they have committed. Again, the Minister, understandably, makes brief reference to the kidnapping of Dr. Herrema. We on this side of the House without any equivocation support the methods and the manner in which the Garda are dealing with the delicate and complex situation that now exists and has existed for a number of days past before the eyes of the nation and, indeed, the eyes of the world. The less said at this time about that situation in our opinion the better.

It is important to note that this estimate for the Garda Síochána is a supplementary one of £11,700,000 to be granted to defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st December, 1975. While the provision of some of the extra moneys could be anticipated it is well to remind those people, for instance in illegal organisations, who are concerned about impressing their will on the State regardless of their rejection by almost the total population of the State, that the people who are actually providing these moneys are the taxpayers. It is well to remember also that these extra moneys are being provided when the same nation is calling on a daily, weekly, monthly and yearly basis for years past for increased financial aid for education, housing, health, and the social security structure and we have now reached the stage where we are cutting back on the provision of money for the handicapped. As a direct result of these activities being perpetrated in the nation by these illegal organisations and by others these extra moneys have to be found and used to protect the citizens and give effect to law and security in the State. If the present situation did not exist, these moneys could be used for purposes for which they are so badly needed.

Civil unrest in any nation at any time is a bad thing and it gives rise to the sort of situation I have described where the socially needy are deprived and so long as the nation is subject to the cancer of civil unrest its progress as a result is virtually nil.

That is by way of a general comment on the situation with which the Garda have to deal. Over the years Fianna Fáil have unreservedly supported the Garda Síochána in the discharge of their duties. Equally, the Government demand and get unreservedly the support of the Garda Síochána. The fundamental obligation of any Government is to uphold the law and maintain security and we believe that the present Government should not present the upholding of law and maintenance of public order as a special virtue on their part. Fianna Fáil have never been found wanting in doing its duty in difficult times. They were never found wanting in respect of maintenance of the peace. It was notorious that at a time when they were in Government they did not have the support of the whole House. Certainly, they had the support of some elements in the then Opposition but they did not have the support which we as an Opposition give the Government in times of crisis. This is support we believe any Government are entitled to get to uphold the basic democratic institutions and the freedom of this Dáil. Any Opposition party within that democratic framework would be accused of hypocrisy and cant if it did not give that support to the Government of the day in a time of crisis and need. In the course of the by-election, no later than last Sunday, it was interesting to note the remarks of the Minister for Finance, Deputy R. Ryan. It was he, not we, who raised the issue. He was answered on our behalf. The Government's attempt to imply during the by-election that they are the only trustworthy upholders of law and security is all the more deplorable in the present circumstances. Mr. Ryan's references to——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister for Finance. It is the wish of the Chair that the Mayo by-election be divorced from this Estimate debate.

Mr. Andrews

The reference of the Minister for Finance to: "this Government's commitment to law and order..." is all the more deplorable in view of the fact that Fianna Fáil have never been found remiss in respect of their duty as they saw it in the context of law and security. However, when we were doing our duty our governmental heels were being snapped at by certain Members who are silent today.

The Minister mentioned a local security force—the Estimate is for payments of compensation and other expenses arising out of the service of the local security force. I know the Minister does not mean the abortive local security force that was spoken of. That kite was flown by the Taoiseach who said that these so-called vigilantes would aid the Garda Síochána in the prevention of crime and the maintaining of law and security in local areas. I should like the Minister to explain the reference to "local security force" in more detail when replying.

The Fianna Fáil Party talked about the setting up of a police authority and the matter was raised in the House by way of parliamentary question some weeks ago. On that occasion the Minister made specific reference to the possibility of establishing a police authority and I should like him to develop his thinking on the possible role of such an authority in the context of its relationship to the Garda Síochána and the Department of Justice.

The Garda Síochána in recent times have been receiving the co-operation of the public. At present they are riding high, and deservedly so, in the esteem of the people. In my area if one requires the assistance of the Garda Síochána, assuming the telephone is in working order although it is most unlikely to be in working order at present, and one is successful in contacting them they attend to that call within a short time. They are always courteous.

The Minister mentioned the cut-back in overtime and told us that the gardaí were in dispute with him on this account. He attempted to justify the cut-back in overtime. I come from a suburban constituency and it has been expressed to me from time to time that there has been a lessening of emphasis on Garda foot patrols. The presence of a garda at night in an area gives the people there a certain sense of security and it also frightens off would-be criminals. I know the Minister will tell us that there has been no lessening in the general security situation. We accept that in the present circumstances there has to be an added emphasis on the national security situation and that the State must be protected at the cost of many worthy schemes against those who would attack the institutions of the State.

It is proper that the State should be so protected and we would support the Minister should he require additional money for this purpose. Local conditions are causing concern in urban areas. I am not competent to speak with any authority about rural areas and I have no doubt my colleagues will deal with that aspect of the matter. In referring to the lack of foot patrols I do not wish it to be taken as a criticism of the Garda Síochána. In fact, it reflects well on the Garda Síochána when one considers that their presence in a neighbourhood during the hours of darkness is welcomed by the local people. I should like the Minister to comment on that aspect.

We believe the gardaí are entitled to a salary commensurate with their responsibility. If in recognition of the responsibility which they carry they are paid extra we would support such an increase. If we are to have a proper law enforcement agency we will have to pay for that agency. We believe the gardaí are discharging their functions in the traditional fashion of loyalty to the nation. We also believe that the circumstances and conditions under which some members of the force have to work are, to say the least, deplorable. I can think of one such station, Shankill, which is a shame.

Mr. Cooney

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy and I agree with what he is saying, but I refrained from broadening my speech to cover that and other matters touching on the Garda because the constraint of Standing Orders confined me to the sub-head in question.

Mr. Andrews

I appreciate the Minister was constrained but I do not think there is any bar on my urging the Minister, and the Department of Justice, to ensure that the members of the force are properly treated in their living conditions, salary structure and working conditions.

I do not intend spending a great deal of time on this debate because we are constrained by the type of debate it is. There is one matter I should like to put on the record with a view to returning to it at a later stage, that is, the problem of violence in our community.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must appreciate that he must discuss the items for which money is sought in this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Andrews

We are talking about the Garda Síochána.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are two subheads on which the Deputy may speak.

Mr. Andrews

That is what I am doing. I am speaking on these two subheads dealing with essential Garda services, the cut-back on overtime and the widespread admiration for the success attending the Garda operations when dealing with crimes in our society. As I said, I would like at a later stage—perhaps when the Minister for Justice is introducing his annual Estimate—to deal with the whole concept of violence in the community. It is that type of debate which I believe will help the Garda Síochána discharge their functions better because they have to deal with violence and we, as legislators, have a part to play too. We could debate the cult of violence and the effects of violent literature, films and action on our young people, bearing in mind that the people engaging in the violent actions, films and literature are generally adults and the young people are following in the tradition of violence handed down to them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair does not want to interrupt the Deputy but——

Mr. Andrews

That is just a thought for the day and might be worth debating in the future. I thank the Minister for his statement to the House; mercifully it was brief.

Mr. Cooney

I cannot return the compliment.

Mr. Andrews

I am sure at a later stage we will be able to expand and broaden the debate in a general fashion.

Mr. Esmonde

I will be brief. This is a very essential and vital Supplementary Estimate. It is a matter of regret to note that part of it is due to the disturbed internal situation which has existed for the past few years. It would be well if those people, self-styled army privateers, realised that what they are doing to the ordinary taxpayer and ratepayer is increasing their cost of living and, at the same time, denying the right and validity of the hopes the ordinary men and women placed in the ballot boxes at the last and previous general elections. These people are not prepared to accept a constitutional Government under any guise. It is fair to describe them as a bunch of bloody-minded Al Capones. It is about time we put them in their proper place because they are responsible for a great deal of overtime in the Garda and Army as is evident from this Supplementary Estimate. I did not like to let this opportunity pass without referring to this subject.

Deputy Andrews referred to the same matters but in milder language. It is about time we said things bluntly and honestly here. I was glad to hear the Minister refer to the reaction of the public to the good services provided by the Garda. It is obvious that certain members of the public who were lukewarm about law and order now realise that their security in the future depends on co-operation with the Garda. In recent times it has become very evident that the public are co-operating more with Garda investigations. I hope to see an even greater increase in this co-operation in the future. If this happens the bill to be paid by the Department of Justice will be a great deal less.

Mr. Tunney

I endorse what has been said by the previous speakers. I do not consider that anyone is to be complimented for endorsing the manner in which the Garda carry out their duties and the excellence of the service they give. My only regret is that it costs so much.

There is an indication in the Minister's speech that the total amount of £7 million is needed to meet the extra pay granted to the Garda Síochána by arbitration at the end of 1974. The accounting officer and the officers of the Department when estimating for 1975 should have included this sum. It is well known that this increase would be forthcoming and I wonder why provision was not made in the full Estimate.

I do not wish to extend the debate but I would like to take slight issue with the Minister when he claims that:

Although exaggerated accounts of cut-backs in services have appeared from time to time, there has been no diminution of essential Garda services.

At the end of his speech he said that it would be premature to take a decision to strengthen the Garda Síochána until the management consultants currently employed to investigate the management of the force have submitted their report. My point is that there is a need for extra gardaí now.

I should hate to appear insular or parochial on this but I can only take guidance from my constituency. In a certain area of my constituency over the last two years a special Garda patrol operated successfully and vandalism, mugging and violence were completely eradicated from the area. Since the patrol was withdrawn some months ago there have been further incidences of vandalism. I am giving that example to prove that at least in the constituency I represent what I regard as an essential service has suffered and it can only be corrected if overtime is granted as happened previously or if there are additional gardaí. I cannot accept from the Minister that the position is satisfactory; if I were to do that I would be misleading the Minister and the House.

Yesterday—not in anticipation of this short debate—I had occasion, as happens practically every week, to visit the local Garda station at Finglas. I was told there that there were regrets that men were not available to patrol the areas I mentioned. Last week, in response to appeals from the area, I was told that the total available force in the station at Finglas was three men—for an area greater than any city outside Dublin. The Minister will realise I cannot accept the proposition that essential services are being catered for. Certainly they are not being catered for in the Finglas area which I represent.

There are manifestations of that every day. Before the summer recess I asked a question in the House and I suggested to the Minister that the information he got from the Commissioner was not correct. I was told that the incidence of vandalism in the Finglas area had shown a reduction. That may be so but if it is the case it is because the gardaí are not there to detect it. It is false and misleading to say vandalism is on the decline; we are only holding off the day that will come much more rapidly on all of us by pretending——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would point out to the Deputy that this would be more appropriate on the Estimate.

Mr. Tunney

I suggest that in circumstances where it has been indicated to me that there has been no diminution in essential gardaí services and where the Minister in his speech indicated that it is not proposed to strengthen the number of gardaí available, I should be at liberty to indicate to the Minister that there is a gap to be filled.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would be appropriate to the Estimate.

Mr. Tunney

I accept the guidance of the Chair. If I have evidence that essential Garda services in my constituency are not beng met, am I not at liberty here to indicate the position to the Minister?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

On a Supplementary Estimate it is in order to discuss the subheads.

Mr. Tunney

Perhaps the Minister was too generous towards the House in inviting comments of that nature. I thought that as the headline was given by the Minister it would be in order for me, a disciplined member of the force, to follow the good lead of my Minister.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would enable the debate to be widened. It would expand what would be appropriate to discuss on a Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Tunney

I must accept what the Chair has said. I admit I am at a loss to understand how, representing my constituency and having been asked to agree to a Supplementary Estimate of £11 million, I am precluded from indicating there is need for additional gardaí in my constituency. If that is the case I do not know why the debate is taking place.

Mr. Andrews

Hear, hear.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Cooney)

I should like to thank Members for their contributions, for their concern for the well-being of the Garda force and for their expressions of concern about the well-being of the country. The two things go hand in hand because the Garda are the guardians of our basic institutions and our basic liberties. It is good to hear them praised in that context because too often we have unthinking and facile criticism of the gardaí and their activities. It is good that spokesmen in this House should draw attention to the fact that the gardaí are our protectors, that this is their role.

Deputy Andrews raised the question of security and the importance of the gardaí in the security context. I cannot emphasise that too much. I do not want to go into detail on it because of the constraints a Supplementary Estimate debate imposes on us but, as it has been raised, I want to thank the Deputy for the unequivocal support which he says is available from Fianna Fáil and which I accept. On the other hand, I cannot refrain from commenting that he appeared sensitive on this matter but perhaps it might have been my ears deceiving me.

Mr. Andrews

It was.

Mr. Cooney

The Deputy raised the question of a police authority. This will be a matter for debate——

Mr. Andrews

The Minister could not resist saying that.

Mr. Cooney

When an opening is presented one must move in.

Mr. Andrews

The Minister knows I did not bring up his record in that context. I was trying to be very balanced and responsible.

Mr. Cooney

I am looking forward to a debate in this House in about a fortnight's time on another Bill in this general area.

Mr. Andrews

The Minister has fallen into the trap I did not want to fall into.

Mr. Cooney

With regard to the question of the police authority, I indicated this is an idea that attracts me but further debate on it will have to await a general Estimate debate and the conclusion of the management survey.

Mr. Andrews

Will the Minister say when the survey will be concluded? Can he tell us the cost and who are the management surveyors?

Mr. Cooney

I think I gave information regarding the cost in a Dáil question some time ago. It will cost in the region of £46,000. The management consultants are Messrs. Stokes, Kennedy and Crowley. They were picked after tender in competition with a number of others skilled in this area. They were not picked by me or my Department but by a composite surveying body. They should report in about July, 1976. Their terms of reference are extremely wide and enable them to investigate all aspects of the management of the Garda Síochána.

Mr. Andrews

Will they take submissions from concerned people?

Mr. Cooney

No, it is an internal management survey. It will not have anything to do with policy.

Mr. Andrews

Can the Minister state if they are definitely examining the possibility of a police authority?

Mr. Cooney

No, they are not examining the idea of a police authority. The examination of a police authority by me would be premature pending their recommendations. They may recommend altered managerial structures within the force. I might set up a police authority at this stage that, in its composition and role, might conflict with their ultimate recommendations. I thought it better to wait until the survey was finished.

With regard to the Local Security Force, these payments are compensation for injuries received by members of that force on duty during what we call the Emergency, the last war. The payments amount to £640 per annum in the current year. It is a tiny part of the Estimate.

Mr. Andrews

Why has it taken so long to discharge this small sum of money?

Mr. Cooney

It is an annual payment for injuries sustained many years ago and from which the unfortunate people concerned are still suffering.

Mr. Andrews

It is a type of pension, then?

Mr. Cooney

It is analogous to a pension; as known in legal circles, it is "compo". Both Deputy Andrews and Deputy Tunney raised a question of Garda presence. Deputy Andrews raised the matter in the context of foot patrols and their importance. I agree entirely in regard to the importance of the man on the beat. It was unfortunate that some years ago this policy while not being discarded completely was downgraded to some extent and the patrols were replaced by mechanically propelled vehicles. I am glad that for some time past there has been a change in this regard on the part of the Garda authorities and that they are anxious to restore a high level of beat patrols. This type of patrol is a good deterrent as well as being a consolation to citizens. However, it is very difficult for the layman to say that any one area is not being patrolled adequately. Differing areas require differing levels of patrolling, different times of patrolling. When a Member or anyone else says that patrolling in his area has diminished, his statement may be based on casual observation and this can be inaccurate.

Mr. Andrews

But it is not inaccurate. Deputy Tunney has outlined a situation.

Mr. Cooney

I am dealing with Deputy Andrews' assertion but I shall come to Deputy Tunney's point in a moment. It is dangerously fallacious to criticise the absence or presence of beat patrols on the basis of casual observation. However, the importance of beat patrols is accepted by me and by the Garda authorities and the patrols are implemented so far as possible and so far as Garda professional assessment deems their presence necessary in any area at any time.

Mr. Andrews

On a point of information, the statement made by me was not based on casual observation but on hard and fast information I received and which supports in full what Deputy Tunney has said.

Mr. Cooney

If the Deputy wishes to give me details of any such hard and fast information I shall be glad to give him a detailed reply for the benefit of those who conveyed the information to him.

Mr. Andrews

So far as I can remember the Minister received representations from me some time ago in this matter.

Mr. Cooney

I cannot recall offhand any such representations but the Deputy may renew them.

Mr. Andrews

Of course.

Mr. Cooney

Deputy Tunney raised a number of questions and took issue with me on a statement in my brief to the effect that there had been no diminution in essential Garda services. He considered that there had been such diminution in his district. Again, this is entirely a matter for debate. As a concerned public representative, Deputy Tunney would like to see a very high level of police activity in his area. Ideally, we would all like to see such activity approach almost saturation point so as to ensure that everywhere one goes one sees a man on patrol, but we must balance that desire with the exigencies of the situation as the officers in charge find it. We must rely on their professional discretion.

Mr. Tunney

I cited the case of the Fitzmaurice area. In that area there was no vandalism during the time of the presence of the special patrol but since the removal of that patrol a month or two ago, there has been a much higher incidence of vandalism. This is factual evidence.

Mr. Cooney

I appreciate that, but it is very difficult to present a problem in this area in what I might call scientific, objective terms. There must be a certain amount of subjectivity. Much depends on how the problem is presented by people intimately or personally affected adversely on a particular day in regard to a certain incident which might be blamed on the lack of patrols. On the other side of the coin there is the professional police view as to what level of patrolling is necessary. There is the professional assessment of what is an essential Garda service. It might well be that there are many desirable Garda services but a distinction must be made between which are desirable and which are essential and priorities must be adjusted accordingly. I can envisage a situation where a Garda service might come into operation on the grounds that it was essential at the time and was maintained for a number of years but where the requirements that made it essential in the first place might diminish so that after some time it could no longer be regarded as an essential service. However, the question is a difficult one to decide. We must leave it to the Garda officers.

Deputy Tunney raised, too, the question why it is not possible to provide for the elements of extra pay and national wage agreements in the ordinary Estimates. I am advised that in the normal course the amounts £4,623,000 and £2,666,000 would be provided for in Votes sponsored by the Minister for the Public Service and that it is merely because there was the overtime Estimate, which had to be sponsored by me, that all is being put into this Supplementary Estimate as a matter of convenience. On the question of timing, I understand the reason they were not sponsored by the Minister for the Public Service was because the awards were granted towards the end of the year 1974 and had not been accepted by the Government in sufficient time to be included in the annual Estimates. The financial need has not arisen until now in the sense of the need for parliamentary authority for the payments involved. There is the further point I referred to in my speech of having to let the year go on in order to see some of the savings that may become apparent and for which we might take credit.

Deputy Andrews mentioned the desirability of Garda salaries being commensurate with the job. I agree entirely that both salary and working conditions should be commensurate with the job. In this context it might be of interest to the House to hear some examples of the pay rates for the most numerous ranks. On completion of training a garda is paid a weekly wage of £45.53. Normally this would be a man just out of his teens. After 15 years in the ranks he receives a basic salary of £63.50. On appointment a sergeant is paid at the rate of £65.94 per week. After three years in the rank he receives £70.54 per week. As I indicated in the Estimate gardaí are now paid special rates for working unsocial hours such as at nights, at weekends and on public holidays. This is in addition to anything they may earn by way of overtime. These figures are very much basic pay scales. I am sure the Deputy will agree that they are not ungenerous, that society is not ungenerous to the Garda in terms of those pay scales.

If the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will permit me I will refer briefly to the question of Garda buildings. I share Deputy Andrew's concern that Garda stations throughout the country are not as they should be, that there has been a heritage of old buildings, but they are being tackled on a wide scale. Improvements are being effected. There are 70 to 80 minor improvements carried out every year in stations up and down the country. There are in course of construction at the moment 14 new stations. Major improvements are in mind for nine other stations.

Mr. Andrews

Could the Minister give us a note of the 14 new stations?

Mr. Cooney

I will give the Deputy the particulars. It is quite possible the station the Deputy mentioned is not included. Not all stations can be tackled simultaneously but there is a comprehensive programme to improve housing and conditions generally.

Deputy Esmonde raised one matter which, I think, bears repetition. I refer to how important it is that the gardaí should have the full co-operation of all members of the public. That means that people must give to the gardaí information which comes their way, information which will lead to the detection of law breakers and assist the gardaí in their fight against subversion. This is very important. I am glad to say there has been a considerable improvement in this regard in recent times and Deputy Esmonde was right when he said there is now public concern about the safety of the State and public awareness of the importance of the Garda force in our society. That is reflected in the continuous and increasing public co-operation.

The only other point to which I should like to refer is that raised by Deputy Tunney in connection with his area. He said the position could only be improved if more gardaí were provided in his area or more overtime paid. He said I had ruled out any increase in numbers. I did not do any such thing. What I said was it would be premature to do anything pending the report of the consultants. There is a third option, namely, a better deployment of the existing force.

That might make up some of the deficiencies the Deputy says exist in his area. Whether there can be a better deployment is something that may be apparent from the management survey. Different times may require new methods and new approaches. It would be premature to make any drastic changes in the numerical strength of the force pending the report of the consultants.

I thank Deputies for their expressions of goodwill towards the gardaí. I know they reflect the general public feeling and I know the gardaí want to assure the public of their acceptance of the importance of their role in protecting the public and their anxiety to discharge that role as efficiently as possible. They want the public to know they appreciate the co-operation that has been forthcoming in generous measure in recent times.

Vote put and agreed to.