Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 Dec 1975

Vol. 286 No. 9

Industrial Development (No. 2) Bill, 1975: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Callanan

Before I reported progress last night I was giving a brief account of my view on the allocation of this money to the IDA. I emphasised what I thought was important in relation to the way this money would be spent and the importance of developing industries particularly in rural Ireland. I also said the Minister should consider seriously, giving more of this money to smaller Irish industries. I said that many foreign industries come in here. I am for them but they should be well screened so that they do not come in here and collect huge sums of the taxpayers' money. Those people have no commitments to the country and as soon as anything goes wrong they fold up and go. A lot of the taxpayers' money goes down the drain in this way. This matter needs very careful consideration.

We should make every endeavour, despite ensuring that foreign industrialists are carefully screened, to get good viable industry from outside the country. This is of vital importance now particularly when so many of our small farmers have to get off-farm employment to have at least an income that would give them a reasonable standard of living. It is very important to concentrate on small industries in small towns. At one time we concentrated industrial estates in the larger cities but petrol was cheap then and it was easy for people to travel 30 or 40 miles to work. In my own county we have people travelling such distances to Galway city to work. At present, the unfortunate worker who has to have a car to go to work finds travelling very expensive. Therefore, small industries should be located in villages and towns. If we do not succeed in expanding industry very much in future I foresee a bleak outlook for rural Ireland because the policy, as far as I can see, is to put the small farmer off the land because he will not be able to exist on it—even though we will fight this policy—and it will be essential for him to have off-farm employment. Industrial development is, therefore, vitally important. The IDA are playing a vital role in trying to get industries established by giving grants and so on but there should be special concentration on the undeveloped regions. Dublin, and even Galway, are expanding very rapidly and it is not good for the country to have people coming from the country in such large numbers into the cities.

As far as possible the Minister should concentrate on industries that are wedded to agriculture because our greatest problem is raw material. We do not get the very best raw material and we have to import it but there are a number of industries wedded to agriculture and they should be supported. There are some people who have private industries and I think these are entitled to support. They are employing six or seven people each and could perhaps, expand to employing nine or ten. I should like to see them getting more support. Everybody seems to concentrate on getting some big firm to come in—it looks great—and employ a large number but if anything goes wrong with any of these they have no commitments to this country and do not feel obliged to try to make the enterprise a success. If things go wrong they pull out. We should, therefore, give as much support as possible to small industries.

The IDA have done a very good job on which I compliment them but we are in a very serious position with 108,000 unemployed. I should like to know how the campaign to get more good, viable industries is going at present. What type of screening is done to ascertain if these industries will be viable? AnCO have done a very fine job in training people for industry.

Could the Minister make some sort of industrial survey to find out if it is absolutely necessary to replace human beings with machines? I have often said: "Oh, efficiency, what crimes have been committed in thy name". I have known some industries and cooperatives with which I am associated where a large number of young people were employed and doing excellent work but we went over to computers and had to cut down from, perhaps, ten girls to four in the name of efficiency. I discovered that the computer answers according to how it is fed and the human element still operates. If those feeding the computer are not efficient, the computer is no better than an inefficient clerk typist.

When I see young people leaving school today with excellent qualifications and who cannot get a job of any kind I wonder where we are going in replacing human beings by machines. This is a problem that should be studied in Europe. Is every educated young person to go on social welfare while machines do the work? I have no objection to social welfare but it is terrible to see no employment available for young people leaving school. Even if they emigrate I do not think there is much prospect of employment for them. This matter should be taken up in Europe: what is the world doing in the name of efficiency? I believe that great crimes are being committed.

The extra amount that the IDA are getting is just sufficient to keep up with inflation but I ask the Minister to give very serious consideration to how the money will be spent because sometimes we can be a little careless about who gets the money. Many factories are at present closing down, factories for which a lot of money was paid out and these industries are leaving the country, which is a very serious matter for us. My final advice is to concentrate as far as possible on industries wedded to agriculture where the raw material is available at home and also to consider as locations the smaller towns and villages because of the increased cost for people travelling to work in large industrial areas.

Mr. Browne

Last night in an effort to extricate Deputy Daly from a verbal confrontation with the Leas-Cheann Comhairle I fear I put my two feet in it by saying that the Minister, in introducing this measure had made a long and wide-ranging speech. I was reminded by the Minister and by my own front bench spokesman that the Minister did no such thing, that his speech was very short. In the past few days I was actively engaged in trying to keep the AnCO training centre in Wexford—I do not know if AnCO still have anything to do with it; I think they have. I was also engaged in trying to secure an industry for Enniscorthy and possibly I could be excused for thinking that the Minister in introducing a matter of this kind and scope would have made a long, wide-ranging speech. But it is rather typical of Ministers in this Government in introducing measures like this to make very brief speeches giving very little information and coming in at the end when everybody has spoken and speaking at rather greater length. It should be the other way around. Certainly, where measures involving such a huge amount of money are concerned— many millions—Ministers should give more information in introductory speeches.

I would have thought that the Minister would have given us some idea of his hopes, and what he expects from the IDA in the future, some idea of the IDA's plans for the future regarding industrial development, providing new industries to give the employment that is so essential at present.

The Industrial Development Authority have done a good job and I would be the last to deny that. They have secured industries to provide employment for our people. They have had great successes and they have had their failures. This is to be expected in the case of any venture of this kind. Indeed, the architect of our industrial expansion, the late Seán Lemass, often said that to secure industries here we must have failures as well as successes. We must put in a great deal of money to secure industries and it is to be expected that some of that money will be lost. However, it is up to the Minister, the Government, the IDA and all concerned, to ensure, so far as is humanly possible, that any industry brought in will be successful, that it will have all the ingredients necessary for success in its make-up and in its management.

Like other Deputies, I would make a plea for more financial assistance for local industries and certainly more financial assistance for the establishment of Irish industries especially small local industries. It is equally important in the present critical economic circumstances of the country that everything humanly possible is done to keep existing industries in operation. Quite a few of them are in financial trouble and it is essential that to weather the present economic storm they should be given sufficient assistance from the IDA. I would strongly support the idea of giving more financial aid not alone to existing Irish industries but for the establishment of further industries. I am afraid that very often we look to the larger industry, that our sights are set on gaining industries that will give employment to the extent of 200 or 300 people. In many cases the industry giving employment to ten, 15 or even fewer people is as important, if not more important, and I think a number of smaller industries with greater hopes of success would be preferable to the huge industry that may not in the long run succeed.

My main reason for speaking this morning is to push the claims of my own constituency for more help and more industries. Many people are under the false impression that the area of the east coast has done very well under the IDA. It may be true that Dublin city and its environs has done well, although with present unemployment figures in the capital city the need for additional industries there is also accepted. However, I must point out that County Wexford has not done very well. We are in a serious economic position in County Wexford at present. It is agreed that the economic position in the country is very critical but nowhere is it more serious than in my constituency which is also the constituency of the Tánaiste. The four major towns of Wexford need new industries very badly but in particular I would like to refer to the town of Wexford itself and to my home town of Enniscorthy. The increase in unemployment over the past three years in those two towns has been deplorable. The increase in unemployment in Wexford town is really shattering. That is a fact and I am not saying it for political reasons. A major industry closed down there and was replaced by another which has not fulfilled the hopes there were for it.

There is a very serious unemployment problem in Wexford town, apart altogether from the unemployment that exists among school leavers. There are a large number of school leavers there with apparently no hope of employment. Enniscorthy is in an equally serious position. The number of unemployed is too large for us to be happy and certainly too large for us to be doing nothing about it. I would make a particular plea to the Minister to do his best and to impress on the IDA the very urgent need to provide additional industry in Wexford if the position is not to go from bad to worse.

In former years quite a number of people crossed to England and Wales to seek employment. They crossed over each weekend and came back the following Friday. Unfortunately, that employment is no longer available to the people of Wexford town and other parts of that constituency. I am sure the Minister will listen to my plea but I would expect that he would at least listen to the plea of the Tánaiste. I am sure that demand for additional industrial undertakings and employment in Wexford town and other areas of County Wexford has been made on numerous occasions by the Tánaiste.

Finally, we have, in that constituency, advance factories that need to be got off the ground. Large areas of industrial land have been purchased by the IDA. There is one site of some 20 acres outside the town of Enniscorthy. When that site was purchased a few years ago, we had hoped it would create worth-while employment giving industry. I am afraid out hopes have not been realised. The sites are there. The advance factories are there, as are all the facilities. There is a good rail service. There are very good ports in New Ross and Rosslare, in fact everything essential for industrialists. Despite that we have not—and I say emphatically again, we have not—got our proper share of industry in that constituency. In view of the huge amount of unemployment now existing there, I appeal to the Minister to impress on the IDA, with the utmost urgency, the need to remedy the serious position obtaining in that constituency.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): Like other Members of my party, I welcome this Bill and the increase it contains for the IDA. A debate on a Bill such as this is very welcome. It seems to be the only opportunity we are afforded to at least highlight the problems facing industry at present. Without expansion of industry and the creation of new jobs the economy of this country and its development will look very gloomy indeed.

We have spent a lot of time in this House discussing other Bills and proposals. We should have devoted more time to discussing the economic situation in its broader sense in an endeavour to ascertain where our economy is heading. I know this Bill confines us somewhat, that we cannot broaden the debate as much as we would like to do to ascertain how we can check the decline in the economy, to ascertain its causes and if proposals could be put forward to remedy it.

We know perfectly well that the climate for economic expansion has not been very favourable over the past 12 months, indeed, perhaps, over the past two-and-a-half years. There has been a steady decline in and a weakening of our economic base. We should look beyond that and establish what brought it about. If we cast our minds back four or five years we will remember that our factories and manufacturing units were advancing at a steady pace. There was a greater inflow of capital into industry, a larger output from manufacturing units and better profitability within companies. Those are the criteria which give encouragement to manufacturers and that encouragement which industry needs generally. Whether we like it or not it must be acknowledged that very few manufacturers will come to this country unless they can foresee a fair profit margin. In the past we gave tax free reliefs and grants of various kinds. But those reliefs given, with the help of the IDA, are of very little significance if there is no profitability within companies. The attractions of tax free profits will not appeal to foreign investors, or, indeed, to investors here if, at the end of the year, such companies find themselves in the red.

I welcome the raising of this allowance from £200 million to £400 million. The quicker this money is taken up the better. Indeed, there has been a delay of four to six years in the granting of this increase. We know perfectly well what impact that £200 million will have on our economy in five years' time. We are aware of the diminishing returns to be got from any investment the way inflation is going. While that may appear a considerable sum now, in four or five years' time, if inflation continues to rage as it did last year and the year before, the return on investment or on the employment content of those additional moneys will be negligible. Therefore, the Minister will have to create the proper economic climate in which these additional moneys will be allocated and taken up as quickly as possible.

The associated banks themselves have indicated—indeed, it is plain for anyone to see—that their credit has not been taken up over the past 12 months. There is an obvious reason for this. The returns on investment over the past two to three years have been so low the majority of people are going into gilt-edge securities, national loans and so on where they get a better return. When people find they can invest their money in paper and get a better return than taking the risk of going into industry or establishing businesses it must be recognised that that is a dangerous juncture. I know it is not confined to this country. Inflation is widespread throughout the world. It is raging in western Europe but it is the duty of our Ministers and Government to try to control inflation. If we do not do so, the Bill about which we are speaking here, the expansion of industry or of the by-products of agriculture will not succeed. Unless we do something about our inflation, which, of course, will have an effect on our unit costs, very few manufacturers will expand and I am speaking for those manufacturers in industry today who should be encouraged to expand their present potentialities. Some manufacturers have explained to me the tight margins within which they are operating, their low return on capital and the large deterioration on their plants. When one compares their profits with the replacement cost of plants, one will see that there is very little return.

The Industrial Development Authority cannot expand on their own. The Minister introducing a Bill like this will not solve our economic problems which are far more deep-rooted. The Minister and his colleagues, especially the Minister for Finance, have not been helpful over the past 12 to 18 months in the matter of economic expansion. Any of the Bills he put through this House, irrespective of whether or not they were necessary, could have been deferred to a later date. They did not contribute towards creating a climate conducive to industrial expansion. There was no urgency about it. However, it is water under the bridge now and it is no good going back over it again.

Our manufacturers have to compete in foreign markets but manufacturers must always have a home market as well. If a manufacturer has not got a home market in which he can make the biggest proportion of his profit it is very difficult for him to compete in foreign markets. We are reaching the stage now at which the home market is disappearing. Irish manufacturers are being priced out of retail outlets. Many of our big retail outlets are in the hands of foreign cartels which have moved in here. There was no need for expertise and they moved in only to make more profit. I would not object to them if I knew they were not adversely affecting our own manufacturers. Up to 40 or 50 per cent retail commodities come from huge supermarkets, many of which manufacture in Britain or elsewhere and can, therefore, give a preference to their own manufactured goods imported here. This problem is growing and it is reflecting itself in our unemployment figures.

I know the days of protection are over. We are in an open economy as far as the EEC is concerned and there is little we can do except compete. Our unit costs have been rising steadily over the past four, five or six years. That has been very obvious. Unless we get these unit costs down to a competitive level we will have very little hope of success in either the home market or foreign markets. Four or five years ago it was stated that our unit costs were lower by 7, 8 or 9 per cent as compared with Britain and the Continent. That situation no longer exists. Our unit costs are now higher than those of the United Kingdom and we have lost competitiveness. Our manufacturers are struggling to keep their markets and that struggle has been very obvious over the last 18 months. If positive steps are not taken to help industry out of this situation there can be no expansion in manufacture. Only through industry can we hope to reduce the unemployment queue.

We must develop industries based on native raw materials. We must concentrate on industries based on agriculture. There are factories based on agriculture but we will have to have more of these to absorb those who are leaving the land. We have the highest numbers employed in agriculture as compared with Western Europe and the United States of America. In ten years' time fewer will be employed in agriculture and we must, therefore, establish industry to absorb those who cease to be employed on the land. We can only do this by establishing industries based on the by-products of agriculture.

Fishing is an industry which has not been developed to any great extent. Here there is a vast potential which has never been properly exploited. Processing factories should be developed in the west. Proper harbours should be provided and the necessary factories built. Our trawlers are not really competitive by present-day standards. I trust I am not going outside the scope of the Bill but I believe the Industrial Development Authority must spread its wings a little wider where the fishing industry is concerned. The raw material is available in the sea. All we have to do is harvest it.

Acting Chairman (Mr. M. E. Dockrell)

I would remind the Deputy that is the responsibility of another Minister.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I adverted to that but I take it the IDA would be concerned from the point of view of the type of factories to be established.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy would be on surer ground there. I am not quite certain how sure it would be, but it would be closer to the IDA.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I accept the ruling of the Chair and I shall not pursue my argument except to say that I am sure the Minister and his colleague in the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries would be concerned. The raw material is available. All that is required is proper development. We have quite a number of potentials. We have natural gas. We have mines. We should find out how the raw materials we have could be utilised to our advantage. Importing raw materials is a costly business. With regard to the smelters and the oil and natural gas developments, the long drawn-out debate between Navan and the Minister had an adverse effect on the development of those concerns.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Keating)

It was the most rapid development of natural gases of any country in the world and the envy of every country in Europe. That is the most pitiful travesty of the effect it is possible to get.

Mr. Crowley

The Minister welched. The Government are a crowd of welchers and that is why we are in the state we are in at present. We have a crowd of welchers in Government and their word means nothing.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): The drawn-out negotiations had an adverse effect on the development of the concerns and on expertise. Some experts left this country because the Minister would not make up his mind in time.

Mr. Keating

The Deputy is doing as much damage as he can. He is reversing the facts to do the maximum damage he can. He cannot run the matter himself and he wants to wreck it.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): The experts left because the Minister could not make up his mind in time.

Mr. Keating

Pitiful nonsense. It is a shame that it should be on the record of the House. The Deputy is making a fool of himself with utterances like that.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I am not making a fool of myself. I know experts who emigrated.

Mr. Keating

Anyone who knows anything about the industry knows the Deputy is making a fool of himself.

Mr. Crowley

Everybody knows that the Minister made a fool of himself over the past two years.

Acting Chairman

The wisdom of the Minister or anything in that regard does not arise under this Bill.

Mr. Crowley

The Minister is the man who was going to control prices; our socialist controller of prices. May God protect us from socialism.

Mr. Keating

May God protect us from fools.

Acting Chairman

The Chair cannot allow conversation across the House.

Mr. Dowling

One fool at a time.

Mr. Brennan

It was the Minister who started this.

Mr. Crowley

The Chair should reprimand the Minister. He was hit on a raw nerve and reacted predictably.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I know experts who left to obtain employment in other parts of the world because of the delay here.

Mr. Keating

The long delay of the previous Government.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): We would have finalised those agreements.

Mr. Brennan

God be with the good old days when people could live here when there was prosperity.

Mr. Crowley

Even if the Minister put his hand on the Bible nobody would believe him anymore. The people of Kinsale will not forget the Minister.

Mr. Keating

That is coming from an expert.

Acting Chairman

Offensive remarks must not be made.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): The Minister knows that the delay was detrimental to the development of our mineral wealth.

Mr. Keating

The Deputy may say that but the Minister knows that the opposite is true.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): The IDA, under difficult conditions, have done a great job and many of our major industries have been successful because of the endeavour and research carried out by that body. There have been failures, and we will always have failures, but the IDA have done their job well. However, the IDA should see if the grant system is the best one to operate. It annoys me to see a factory closing down after three or four years of operation particularly when Government money, in some cases to the extent of £200,000, has been invested. In those cases the Government have no claim over the assets. I suggest that instead of the grant system manufacturers should be given interest free loans. This would suit the small manufacturer who is interested in expanding his business. An interest free loan over a 20-year period would be more beneficial to him because he would not have to pay any high interest rate. At the same time, the Government would be holding a debenture over the assets of that company in the event of it going into liquidation.

The small manufacturer finds it difficult to obtain capital necessary to expand but if he was given an interest-free loan he would not be taking as much of a gamble and he would be interested in reducing the loan as much as possible. I should like to know if loans sanctioned by the IDA during the last 12 months have not been availed of. I should also like to know the reasons those loans were not availed of. Those involved in the export business must wait at least three months before they receive any payment for their goods. However, they must pay COD for the raw material, and in the meantime, must find money to pay their staff. Interest free loans would benefit such industries.

On the question of advance factories, I should like to point out that very few were erected around Dublin. I do not believe the decision not to erect such factories in Dublin was a correct one when it was taken four or five years ago. Such advance factories could be erected in the older parts of Dublin where urban renewal is taking place. All the old factories are being pulled down and it is Dublin Corporation's intention to allocate a certain portion of the inner city to light industry. The problem is how to get manufacturers to move to this part of the city. I have seen the corporation's plans in this respect and I wonder would the IDA consider building small advance factories for very light industry there. They would blend with inner city housing development, roads and all the other centre city infrastructure. I hope the IDA will consider my submissions in this respect.

In the matter of the IDA giving loans for readaptation and redevelopment, I am not sure if they advanced money to one city company. If they did it is the most beautiful situation I have ever seen. I speak of Creation, the publishing firm, which to my way of thinking have been rendered bankrupt by the Revenue Commissioners, their chief creditors. It does not take a great stretch of the imagination to think of the IDA pumping money in at one end by way of grants for readaptation and at the other end, the Minister for Finance, through the Revenue Commissioners, putting the firm out of business before Christmas with a loss, I understand, of 350 jobs. It is very seldom I have seen the Revenue Commissioners putting people out of business and I agree there were other creditors. It is ludicrous if the action of the Revenue Commissioners contributed in any way to the breaking up of that business.

We have been talking about regional policy and development and in these matters the IDA can do very little without the co-operation of, for instance, the Ministers for Local Government and Transport and Power. I have had to drive to the west occasionally in the past six weeks and if any manufacturer was being taken to the west for the purpose of getting him to invest money in manufacturing industry there he would have to think twice. The produce of such factories would be exported through the port of Dublin and any potential manufacturer would have second thoughts, having travelled on the road between Lucan and Leixlip. It is in a terrible state, appalling——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister for Industry and Commerce is not responsible for roads.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): We are talking about £200 million extra for the IDA and unless other Departments do something about the provision of the infrastructure for industry the IDA might as well put the money under the bed.

Mr. Crowley

The Minister has not much money to put under any bed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot allow the Bill to assume the scope of a debate on local government.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): Something should be done to follow up this money by the provision of a framework——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair already ruled that the Deputy may not go into matters which do not come within the scope of the Bill.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I agree with your ruling. It is a pity, because all this is relevant. Anyway, the Minister knows what I am talking about. I wish to refer to the furniture trade. A number of office blocks are being built in this city and I sincerely hope Irish furniture will be put into them, particularly those under the control of the Minister for Finance. I am not including the Board of Works because most of the furniture provided by them is made by Irish firms, but an insurance company are building massive offices in Abbey Street and the biggest part of the shareholding in that company is owned by the Minister for Finance. I understand that only a small portion of the furniture is to be supplied by Irish firms. That is a shame. A foreign designer was appointed. He went to a manufacturer whom I know who supplies the Board of Works and Dublin Castle and this man told this manufacturer that his stuff was not of the quality necessary for these Irish offices, the greater part of whose shares are held by the Minister for Finance. I submit that 100 per cent of the furniture going into those offices should be Irish manufacture. The Minister knows the company I am referring to and I ask him to tell the builders of those offices the type of furniture he wants in them. The amount of money involved is fairly substantial. It might not make any of the Irish manufacturers millionaires but it certainly would help.

Mr. Keating

Through the Chair, I can assure the Deputy that I have already made my recommendations but under the Accession Treaty I have no legal power and neither has the Minister for Finance to impose those conditions.

Mr. Brennan

What did the British do?

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I agree. I blame the consultant employed by the company.

Mr. Crowley

He should be kicked out.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): He should be kicked out. That is Irish life, whether we like it or not. It is disgraceful that they should bring any of this stuff into the country. The amount involved is about £½ million or £¾ million for chairs and desks. If I put down a parliamentary question I will be told that probably a certain portion, an infinitesimal portion—to cover up the charade —is Irish-made. There are very few furniture manufacturers left in this country. The most difficult market to stay in is the furniture market. The company in this case is Irish Life. I know the Minister has made recommendations. I heard that people were on to him. Irish people will be working in these offices, I hope. They were built by Irish labour for Irish people. The furniture in this House is of Irish manufacture and that has always been the case and rightly so. The offices of Irish Life will be just as comfortable with chairs manufactured in this country as they can be with imported chairs or desks. We should become more vigorous in matters of this kind.

Mr. Keating

I agree.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I know the problem the Minister has. The Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce must take action in regard to such companies especially if they are under their control. They should be told that the Government will not stand over such importations.

Even if the amount involved were only £½ million, employment would be provided for a considerable number of persons and it would help to tide people over difficult times. It might give three or four months' work. The furniture manufacturers are not big firms. They employ 20-30 people. An order of £200,000 or £300,000 would be of vital importance to a small unit.

I should like to deal with the matter of vocational education and the status it should have as against academic education but the Chair would not allow me.

Mr. Keating

I agree about that too.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I cannot help saying that too much status has been given to academics in the past and not enough to vocationally qualified persons like carpenters.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has just said it.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I will say it on another occasion and will keep saying it. There are people doing degree courses in universities which will not fit them for the type of employment that will be available in the future.

Mr. Crowley

They will be unemployable.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I could not resist saying it because it is a matter on which I have strong convictions.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may say it on an appropriate occasion.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I will deal with it in some debate on the Department of Education or when discussion of AnCO would be in order. I would expect the Minister to get unit costs under control and to curb inflation. Trained personnel must be available. Whatever additional money is expended on the expansion of AnCO services is money well spent. There are certain matters which a foreign industrialist will consider. He will take into account the political situation, union regulations, exchange control, availability of qualified personnel. Trained personnel must be available when the industrial climate improves.

If the policy of robbing the private sector continues the private sector will diminish. They are the people who carry the burden of increased taxation, direct and indirect. Incentives must be provided. The people I am talking about do not look for a 30-hour week or even a 40-hour week. Hours do not matter to them. The thing that matters to them is to get a return on their endeavour. There must be a climate that will allow expansion of our economic base. Such a climate has not prevailed over the last three years. There has been inflation and high taxation. As a result, the economy is depressed. It is by getting the industrial arm moving that we will solve our problems. Very few Departments create wealth. It is the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries that create the incentive to get other Departments moving.

As much as we would like to improve social welfare services in order to bring them up to EEC standards there is no hope or doing so unless there is a sound economic base. I welcome the Bill and I hope that we will see the fruits of it in a few years' time. I have grave doubts. The present Administration have completely destroyed confidence in business over the past few years. They have destroyed the soul of the business world. It will never be restored, even with that £200 million.

Mr. Brennan

This is an important Estimate at this time. It deals with incentives for industry. Industry has to do with the creation of jobs. In the context of the present situation, in the wake of the woeful announcement of last night, this Estimate, ironically, is brought in at a time when one must have sympathy with the IDA. It is difficult to see how the IDA, a highly qualified body that has a record and reputation for creating industry, working against mighty odds with the brake being applied by other Departments and all the incentives they give being nullified by the Government, can find their work in any way gratifying or satisfactory. It would be difficult to visualise what the future holds for people like the IDA for whom we are providing extra money at this time.

Mr. Keating

Simply on a point of order, the Deputy appears to believe that we are discussing an Estimate. It is, in fact, a Bill for the IDA.

Mr. Brennan

Yes, which makes extra provision.

Mr. Keating

It raises the limits but it does not make extra provision at this time.

Mr. Brennan

The Bill makes extra provision of money for the IDA.

Mr. Keating

I think that is a misunderstanding of what the Bill does.

Mr. Brennan

From my reading of the Bill I understood it provided £200 million extra for the IDA.

Mr. Keating

It provides that the limit which may be voted by the House is raised but it does not vote the money.

Mr. Brennan

It is much the same thing. However, the money is not available.

Mr. O'Malley

Hear, hear.

Mr. Keating

The point is that the moneys for the IDA have to be voted annually in the normal way and the purpose of this Bill is simply to raise the limit of the global amount which will be voted.

Mr. Brennan

That is understandable.

Mr. Keating

If we read what the Deputy said previously in the light of what I have said now, it is obvious that he did not understand it.

Mr. Crowley

The Minister would like to be the Ceann Comhairle.

Mr. Brennan

We are making provision for extra money which the IDA are not likely to get. My sympathy is with the authority in times like these and especially in the wake of the announcement made last night by the Taoiseach in relation to future prospects. We are now in a situation in which our entire policy in relation to the economy has been changed. In these circumstances it is hardly fair to expect the IDA to operate as they operated in the past in relation to attracting industry to this country. This is a mockery. I wonder whether the IDA have access to conferences at which the economy is discussed. It is time that they had access to such bodies as the NESC and the ESRI and that through their personnel they would become an integral part of these bodies so that they might influence the creation of a suitable climate for the establishment and expansion of industry.

This Government came to power at a time when we were being advised by the experts that there were serious times ahead, that action should be taken to curb inflation. The Government ignored all the advice available to them and while they admitted that inflation was running at a very high rate they accused us of having left them with that situation and they proceeded to pursue what they called an expansionary policy in their budget which only exacerbated the already serious inflationary situation. How can industry operate in such circumstances? How could anyone possibly be tempted to engage in industry at present?

We are making a provision here for one of the most important bodies in the country, a body charged with the responsibility of expanding industry. Their task is very difficult when one considers the pressures on industrialists to continue exports. We all know that if exports are not increased, the economy does not expand and that the rate at which we expand industry measures the progress we make. Leaving aside the question of increased taxes and of increased prices resulting from new taxes, let us consider all the other factors mitigating against the industrialist. For example, ESB charges have increased three- or fourfold since this Government came to office and are increasing at the rate of 15 per cent each six months. On the eve of the Taoiseach's statement on the economy we were told that postal charges are being increased. Industry, too, has been asked to carry the entire load in respect of increases for national insurance beneficiaries. Rates on property have been increased——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is moving away from the Bill.

Mr. Brennan

There has been an increase in the cost of insurance stamps and we have had the wealth tax, capital acquisitions tax and so on.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

These matters are not in the Bill.

Mr. Brennan

We cannot discuss in a vacuum incentives for industry. The Minister chooses to be cynical and arrogant despite the fact that he has left the industrialists in a situation out of which some of them may never be able to extract themselves.

Mr. Crowley

The Minister may forget them but they will not forget him.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Brennan is in possession.

Mr. Brennan

After pursuing what was called an expansionary policy, by exploring and exhausting every possible channel through which money could be borrowed, it is decided now to try to contain inflation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot deal with topics like these on the Bill before us.

Mr. Brennan

We are dealing with matters pertinent to the IDA, the most important body in so far as industry is concerned.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are dealing with an increase in moneys for the IDA.

Mr. Brennan

This is the body charged with responsibility for the expansion of industry and the creation of employment and if, under this heading, we cannot discuss the disincentives for industry, there is no point in having any debate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not dealing with a debate on the economy but with the question of increasing the limit in so far as the IDA are concerned.

Mr. Brennan

If we are to confine ourselves solely to the question of the increased limit, the debate should not take more than five minutes. Surely a Bill which relates to the IDA gives scope for discussion of the work of that body.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think the Deputy will agree that one could expand the debate on all faces if one were to engage in that sort of reasoning but that would not be appropriate to the Bill before us.

Mr. Crowley

What is appropriate?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

What is appropriate is what is in the Bill.

Mr. Crowley

Is that not the creation of jobs?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If Deputy Crowley wishes to contribute to the debate the Chair will assist him at the appropriate time.

Mr. Brennan

If I am not to be allowed to discuss the working of the IDA I shall sit down because to fail to discuss matters affecting directly that body is to render this House irrelevant. I want to protest to the Minister about recent contracts which he has permitted to go to foreign companies instead of giving employment at home. We are spending money asking people to buy Irish but State-sponsored companies give valuable contracts to foreign companies. This will cause Irishmen to be thrown out of work. I do not know how the Minister can defend this. I refer particularly to a contract by NET for fabricated steel. They had a competitive tender from an Irish company which would give good employment to Irish workers. The Minister does not raise a hand to prevent something like this happening. Since the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will not permit me to discuss matters pertaining to the IDA I will not continue further about this. I hope there will be an opportunity during the adjournment debate to expose the absolute do-nothing attitude of Ministers in relation to matters like this. They expect Irish firms to be competitive when they know it is impossible. They make glowing speeches about buying Irish goods but they permit contracts to go to foreign firms.

During the short time I was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs I was able to ensure that an Irish company got a particular contract for which there were lower tenders from foreign companies. That is a very active company in Ireland today employing up to 600 people. If they had not got that contract they would not be in existence. I brought the matter before the Government and saw that they got that contract. This Government can do that just as well as we could during our term of office. I can give the Minister the name of the company and the date.

This is the work we should be engaged in rather than making provision for increasing the limit to £200 million for which the IDA may seek assistance to meet inflationary demands. When we say anything about this we are accused by the Minister of trying to upset what he is doing. We are told not to rock the boat. We are told that anything said by this side of the House is for the purpose of wrecking. We see no effort made to change the policy of the Government in relation to inflation. The people at the bottom of the ladder are being asked to do without lots of things but no effort is made by the Government to curb inflation. We cannot discuss this matter over the full range of the IDA operations. We would be out of order if we did so. However, there will be another time.

Mr. Crowley

Nobody on this side of the House objects to the IDA having more money but we strenously object to the charade applied in this Bill as if bringing it into the House ensured that £200 million extra would go to the IDA. This is a deliberate effort to try to con the people into believing that we have in charge of industry and commerce a Minister who is endeavouring to do something about our serious unemployment situation. We know that this has nothing to do with the realities of economic life as we know it in Ireland and that the exercise we are involved in this morning will not create one extra job in the country. If we are serious about creating employment the last speaker pinpointed what we should be doing. We should ensure that every Government Department buy Irish, that Irish manufacturers get priority and as a result of that Irish people are kept in employment.

One need only go into my constituency, if one wants dramatically to highlight the difference between this Government and the last one, and visit Kinsale. When this Government took over Kinsale was a boom town but now it is a depressed town with 450 people unemployed. How many extra jobs will this Bill create in Kinsale? How many extra jobs will it create in Dunmanway? How many extra jobs will it give to the people in Bantry? It will not give any extra jobs to any of the people in my constituency. We have members of the Government decrying the fact that there are actually companies that make a profit. Profit has become a very dirty word since a few armchair socialists arrived on the scene. We know what socialists are and we know what they stand for.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is moving away from the Bill.

Mr. Crowley

I believe it is very relevant to the Bill, particularly the Government's attitude in relation to employment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may think so but the Bill deals with a certain matter. I have already explained that.

Mr. Crowley

You have already explained that it is dealing with a certain matter. I say it is dealing with employment. If the IDA are to be given more funds obviously it is to create more jobs.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sure the Deputy appreciates what is in the Bill.

Mr. Crowley

I appreciate exactly what is in it but I think the Leas-Cheann Comhairle is unduly protecting the Minister. He may need protection.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair is not protecting anybody. The Chair protects everybody in the House in so far as he can but the Chair certainly wants discussion kept to what is in the Bill.

Mr. Crowley

Is the Leas-Cheann Comhairle telling me that we cannot discuss jobs under this Bill?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Unemployment and the economic situation and certainly the Minister's Department may be dealt with when the Estimate comes up but this Bill deals with raising the limit in regard to the IDA.

Mr. Crowley

Can jobs not be discussed by the raising of this level of borrowing?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

In so far as the Deputy is able to relate it to any section of the Bill. If he can relate it to some section of the Bill the Chair is prepared to listen.

Mr. Crowley

I maintain that if the Minister was allowed to discuss employment this side of the House should certainly be allowed to discuss it. In his brief he referred to the financial commitments entered into by the IDA and also referred to the amount of success achieved by the IDA. He said:

Between 1952 and 1970 68,000 new jobs were approved while, in the period 1970 to 1974, inclusive, 78,500 jobs were approved.

Are you going to have one rule for this side of the House and another for the other side?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is misreading.

Mr. Crowley

I am not unless it is written in another language. I will read it again for the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has got a copy of the Minister's brief.

Mr. Crowley

Is the Leas-Cheann Comhairle still telling me, having read that, that we cannot discuss jobs under this Bill?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair is telling the Deputy that we are dealing in this Bill with raising the limits which may be available to the IDA for their work.

Mr. Crowley

What is the work of the IDA except the creation of employment?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is going on to develop his theory. He is taking it beyond the realms of what is in the Bill.

Mr. Crowley

I have not been speaking very long but I discussed the situation in my own constituency where there is a depressing gloom over the town of Kinsale because 450 people are now unemployed who were employed up to a couple of years ago. If we cannot discuss how these extra funds should be allocated and the areas to which they should be allocated, it is a meaningless exercise even to discuss the Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair does not confine the Deputy in that respect.

Mr. Crowley

I am glad to hear it because that is the only respect in which I want to discuss the Bill. Representing a rural constituency, I must emphasise that the efforts of the present Government to create new industries and thereby employment in my constituency have been practically negligible. We have had plenty of promises. Flowery speeches were made by various Ministers who came there promising that it would all happen tomorrow but tomorrow has not come. We see how this contrasts with the work of a man like John Mulcahy whom I would consider a modern day patriot. He comes in because of his feeling for Ireland and creates 3,000 or 4,000 new jobs. Yet he is belittled, maligned and derided in the left wing speeches of some of the Government's associates. Surely that is the type of man we want. This is why we want to reinforce the proposals put forward by our spokesman, Deputy O'Malley, that more and more of this extra money should be allocated to Irish men and the development of Irish industry because we know that when the economic climate cools the Irish men will not leave their posts. Even if the economic climate turns to freezing, they will still endeavour to keep going, whereas a foreigner will pull out when he sees the first danger signal. Our whole attitude will have to be geared more and more to setting up and helping Irishmen in industry.

I would be first to admit that the exercise in which the IDA has been engaged up to now was necessary. We probably had not the traditional expertise to develop our industrial arm as we would like and, therefore, we had to bring in experts. Also, marketing is a very important part of our business and we probably need the marketing outlets that foreign businessmen coming here had already established. I think that day is now past and I should like to see allied to the IDA not only a group to attract and help industrialists to set up their own business but also to sell the products, a sort of pioneer selling force that would go to world markets and, perhaps, help small industrialists who would not be able themselves to send representatives abroad.

I should not like to see the selling force recruited from the civil service, or any such body, because selling is a talent with which you are born, not something you develop. We should carefully consider setting up such a body staffed by top-class salesmen who would establish markets for weak or small industries here. It is all very well to produce the goods, even producing them competitively, but if you cannot sell them you are back to square one. Too little emphasis was placed on selling our products and too much on their production. We realise there are two very important constituents in the running of any business; the first one has been mastered but the second has not. This is why I want to place such emphasis on the establishment of that type of selling force I have mentioned. I do not think small industry is capable of equipping itself with forceful salesmen.

It is also very important that the IDA should involve itself in different areas. It should not be confined to industry and commerce because if we are to establish industries in rural Ireland the whole infrastructure must be right. Our road and rail systems and our servicing of those areas must be one of the priorities of the Government so as to ensure that no disadvantages are in the way of the rural industrialist. From both the economic and social points of view we are thus ensuring that our rural workers, whether farmers or employees, will have gainful employment available on their own doorstep, instead of drifting into the cities and creating more problems there.

Very few people will disagree with this theory but why is it not put into practice? Why do we not have a greater influx of industrialists into rural Ireland? I think there is no doubt but that in rural Ireland you get many people with aptitudes that are a tremendous advantage to any industrialist. Young people coming from farms have some idea of how machinery works, how to repair a tractor or plough and surely this is an advantage to an industrialist who may be involved in either light or heavy engineering.

I must keep returning to the fact that not only do we have to spend extra money on establishing industries but we must create a new climate, new confidence for the industrialist to risk investing his money. We must get rid of the notion—and the Minister is the first person who must do it —that profit is a dirty word. It is a vital necessity if business is to keep going. It is all very well for socialists to say that there should be no profiteers, no speculators and so on. These are all emotive words that have no relevance in business. Most of the business people I know find it very hard to keep going and make a profit. If emotive terms are used against them, creating I think, a certain amount of discontent among their employees, we will negative the whole effort put into establishing industries by both the Government and the IDA.

We have an economic depression here and in other countries at present but surely this is the time when we can show the world how economically viable we are by, first of all, each and every worker in the country producing that bit more, working more conscientiously and ensuring that the day's pay he is getting is well returned in productivity because there is no point in the IDA spending a massive amount in creating one job if the worker does not respond. I am not saying it is general that the worker is not responding but I think there is a certain apathy and a certain state of mind being created in the country which is not helping the economy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to agree that, again, he is moving out of the realm of what is relevant to the Bill.

Mr. Crowley

Of course, I must accept your ruling but the relevance to me is the creation of new jobs and how these new jobs are carried out by the people who go into them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It must be relevant to the proposal to increase moneys to the IDA.

Mr. Crowley

To me it is totally relevant but if you rule otherwise, I must bow to your ruling. I would ask the Minister to have a look at some of the areas in my constituency. He has had deputations from Kinsale and Kinsale is the one I keep emphasising because of its proximity to the airport and to the seaport and because of the industrial tradition in the town. I would ask him to have a look at Kinsale and try to create, through these extra funds which we hope the IDA will be getting, new jobs for the people of Kinsale. I do not think Deputy Fitzpatrick was too far off the mark when he talked about fish processing plants in seacoast areas because the raw materials do not have to be imported. They are available on our door step and we would not alone be creating good jobs but we would be protecting our balance of payments.

Recently at a meeting of Cork County Council I suggested that we establish county committees of fisheries. If the Minister could help those committees by way of grants through the IDA for the development of piers and for the development of the processing of the fish that may be caught in those areas, then he would be doing an excellent job and I would rapidly reconsider the very poor opinion I have of him. After all, is this not a far more practical application of the moneys of the IDA than attracting in some foreign industrialist and paying something in the region of £50,000 per job? That is an enormous sum and I would like the Minister to say whether it is true or not but I am informed that in the case of certain chemical companies the cost of creating one job has been £50,000. To me there is absolutely no comparison between the aiding of say, a fish processing industry and the attracting in of a large multi-national chemical company to the country. If I were a betting man, my money would be very much on the fish processing plant to last far longer than any chemical company that may come in here.

I have absolutely no objection to this Bill. I welcome it if it has any meaning or relevance and I welcome it whole-heartedly if it is going to create any extra employment in my constituency.

Mr. Dowling

In my opinion the IDA are doing a very important job and doing it very well. I should like to express sympathy with the officials of the IDA in their efforts to create additional employment because of the confusion of the situation in recent times. It has been clearly evident that they are working in opposition to the Government rather than in co-operation with the Government. Let us consider, for instance, a large printing group which went out of existence recently while the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has told us that he gets some of his labels printed in England. It is a very serious situation when one section of Government are helping to put a concern out of business by accepting an English tender. The whole question of Government responsibility must be examined. There is also the question of Irish Shipping and the £11½ million contract that was allowed by the Government to be placed in a foreign shipyard when we have a State-aided shipyard here capable of and competent to do this job with Irish labour. In the furniture manufacturing area we have Irish workers capable of producing and competing with the best not only in Europe but the best in the world. They were overlooked by Irish Life who placed an English contract. NET placed a substantial contract of £600,000 for steel fabrication. I should like to quote from a speech by Deputy O'Malley—Official Report of 2nd December, 1975, Volume 286 No. 4. At column 638 Deputy O'Malley said:

... It was tendered for by an Irish firm who were looked over by Kelloggs before they were asked to tender and were found to be a firm capable of carrying out the necessary work at the necessary high standard within the time stipulated. They duly tendered. Long negotiations took place in the course of which they were informed by a director of NET that they had been successful and that their tender would be accepted. A week or so after they were informed of that they found, to their horror, that their tender had been refused and that a British sub-contractor, Farmer and Sons, was awarded this valuable sub-contract instead. The view of Messrs Kelloggs was that Irish firms had not sufficient experience in this type of work and that there was no guarantee that they would carry it out within the time limit.

This is a substantial contract allowed to pass out of the hands of an Irish firm capable of doing the job.

Let me quote Deputy O'Malley again, at Column 638 of the Official Report of 2nd December, 1975, where he said:

If contracts such as this, the fabricating of £600,000 worth of steel for NET, is being refused to a highly competent Irish firm in Dublin—the only Irish firm found worthy of being asked to tender and agreed by all and sundry who saw it as being absolutely competent in every way is turned down, not on the grounds of price but on grounds of inexperience, what hope have they of getting contracts worth millions, perhaps tens of millions, in the building of oil rigs which no Irish firm up to now has been able to do?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is embarking on long duration quotations which are not in order.

Mr. Dowling

They are important quotations because they illustrate clearly the thinking behind the Government's policy, that of semi-State concerns and of Government Departments. It must be very confusing to the IDA, assigned the responsibility of creating new jobs, when the Government which expects them to carry out this operation works against them instead of in harmony with them. This whole question, as it relates to semi-State bodies, Government Departments and State-aided concerns, is a reflection on the present Government. I hope the outlook will change, that the Government will reassess the situation in relation to such competent, State-aided concerns as those mentioned by Deputy O'Malley in his speech. I hope it will no longer be necessary to import furniture for State-aided concerns. I hope also that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will no longer siphon off printing to British firms, allowing Irish firms to go out of business. That is not consistent.

Mr. Crowley

But the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is not consistent anyway.

Mr. Dowling

These are Government decisions. Therefore, in the area of collective responsibility each Minister must bear the same responsibility for this sabotage of Irish industry. I accuse the Minister, collectively with his colleagues, of sabotaging Irish industry on the basis I have indicated.

I must emphasise again how confused officials of the IDA must be in striving to create new jobs. What we need now is a collective effort to ensure 150,000 jobs, not 10,000 but 150,000, at the earliest possible moment. We see the unemployment register at present at 108,000 plus. To a large degree Government policy and attitude are responsible for this tragic situation in the instances I have outlined. There is, for example, the £12½ million contract to the Japanese by the State-aided concern in Cork which was overlooked—a Government decision——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is repeating himself.

Mr. Dowling

I merely want to get it on to the record.

An Ceann Comhairle

Repetition of this kind is not in order.

Mr. Dowling

There is, then, the question of the postal and telephone service. Some time ago I understand Deputy Belton questioned the production of buttons for postmen's uniforms outside the country in addition to the question of labels being printed abroad. I hope the Government will ascertain what they can do at this stage to maintain people in employment, apart from the creation of new jobs.

One must ask: is this a deliberate effort to sabotage the situation? Do the Government want people on the labour exchange, because one Minister has expressed the view that this is a cure for the problem of inflation—the more people there are unemployed at present the quicker will the problem be solved. If that is their outlook, let them say so, and not say one thing in public and another in private. It is here we must expose the situation. Therefore, it is necessary that such matters be put on record.

There is the question also of the inflow of cheap, shoddy goods, the changing of labels and all the other devices being used to put Irish manufacturers out of business. There has been an illegal flow of goods into this country for a considerable time now, with the labels of the countries of origin being changed on their way from the Far East or elsewhere here. I am sure the Minister has examined the situation to some extent.

There are just one or two other points I should like to mention in this dangerous economic climate and to say that whatever assistance, advice or support we can give to ensure that Irish workers get back into employment at the earliest possible opportunity will be forthcoming.

In regard to the depressed areas, where the IDA have diverted industries of one type or another, I would point out, as Deputy Fitzpatrick has done, that the unit cost is very important. While production costs on the spot in such areas have been satisfactory, there are problems existing there for manufacturers, such as the transportation of goods which, of course, further increases the unit cost from the manufacturing base to the rail base or to ports, in respect of which no allowance is made by the IDA. In such areas the question of transport is of importance even with regard to workers from outlying areas travelling to and from factories. I believe transportation in such circumstances should be grantaided. I have been told by a number of industrialists who would have been prepared to establish industries in remote areas, bearing in mind the available, competent work force there, that the transport costs increase the unit cost so much—particularly in the initial stages of an industry and with no allowance being granted that they have found it impossible so to do.

In his promised re-examination of the broader aspects, I would ask the Minister to take this matter into consideration. Deputy Fitzpatrick mentioned those industrialists. I am speaking of those industrialists in designated areas who experience this transportation problem and that of the three months they have to wait for the payment for commodities they have manufactured, having to pay COD on the raw material. This is what causes the major problem in many industries. This is where the liquidity problem occurs. That problem is overcome in other countries by the presentation of accepted invoices and by a Government Department making money available once the goods are accepted. If that situation were in existence here the long delay and the additional interest charges which add to production costs would not occur and it is these which affect competition. If these were removed our industries would be more competitive.

Deputy Fitzpatrick mentioned the establishment of small industries within the city. A substantial case can be made for industries on the perimeter to cater for expanded housing and development. Industrial estates should be created on the perimeter, preferably concerns with a high labour content. Some of the buildings in some industrial estates are merely storerooms. We have one Minister trying to build houses as quickly as possible on the outskirts of the city. I am thinking now of Jobstown on the south side. Industries should be provided in which these people could be employed locally and, if that were done, traffic would not become snarled up in what are called the peak hours. Housing on the south side has almost reached the foot of the mountains and it is now industrial estates should be organised to give employment for the occupants of these houses. I have a certain sympathy with the IDA trying to create new jobs while Ministers and semi-State bodies are working against them, siphoning off to English and foreign concerns contracts that could be filled efficiently and effectively by our own people who are just as competent as foreigners are.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Keating)

I heard Deputy Dowling say he thought the Bill had been well debated. I should like, through the Chair, to make a suggestion and an offer. I make the suggestion to the students of politics and the students of economics in our universities that they should take this Bill and the debate on it and analyse it very carefully. I make the offer that I will try to provide copies of the Bill, of the IDA reports and all the other relevant information which might be of value to them.

Generally, in replying on Second Stage, I would confine myself to the matter in hand and try to give Deputies the answers to some of the questions they asked and, normally, would not go beyond that but, having listened to this debate, I have to say I am profoundly shocked at its level and I would, therefore, suggest to these students, to any of them who would like to set up the sort of project I would like to see done, to make a careful analysis of the contributions this morning, first, in relation to the contents of the Bill and what it is about and, secondly, in relation to my opening speech, thirdly, in regard to the use of facts or lack of facts. It would be an interesting exercise to check the truth of the alleged facts, of statements which purported to be facts. Fourthly, I suggest they check the consistency between the different members of the same party and, fifthly, they check for repetition, relevance and so on. I wish profoundly to see that done because, while I know they are not very impressed with Parliament, I believe we would learn some important lessons about the way the Opposition is currently working.

I introduced this Bill as a small one. I want, first of all, now to deal with the point made over and over again by the Opposition that the Bill had to be expanded because they had not got opportunities of discussing the economy. Therefore, though it was clearly one of a series of IDA Bills, and I mentioned the larger one that is coming, and asked that this be treated as a small Bill, the debate was widened and everything was discussed. Let me deal with the argument that there are no opportunities to discuss the economy. I had a debate in December, 1974, on my Estimate and, if it is alleged I did not say enough about the economy, I was manoeuvred out of replying on that occasion by a little piece of cleverality of a rather typical kind.

In July, 1975, I moved a token Estimate for £10 for my Department to facilitate a general debate. I am not certain of the exact date but the debate did not take place because, in fact, Deputy O'Malley was not available. I am not making a snide comment on that. I have no doubt the reason was a good one. I am simply saying the offer was made on our side in good faith. I had a Supplementary Estimate debated on 11th July last year. There have been opportunities.

Mr. O'Malley

For two hours.

Mr. Keating

The Deputy backed out of one so he should not get too snotty about it.

Mr. O'Malley

I am not aware that I did so.

Mr. Keating

Check the record. Another point is that, with the expansion of Private Members' Time, for which three hours in every week are available more frequently than ever happened when the present Government were in Opposition, that time is being used extensively by the present Opposition though, indeed, not very effectively, and part of their chagrin may arise from the fact that their use of that time makes so little impact. The suggestion that there are not opportunities to debate the economy is patent nonsense.

Mr. Dowling

Private Members' Time has been made a farce by the Government putting down amendments to our motions. They will not discuss the motion before the House in Private Members' Time. The Minister knows it has become a farce.

Mr. Keating

I know this House is being made a farce by a trivial Opposition who are thrashing around at a time when they ought to be examining what is wrong with them and why the public looks upon them as being so trivial, so fatuous and so irrelevant to present difficulties.

Mr. O'Malley

Could we hear the Minister on the economy and the Bill for a change?

Mr. Keating

The Deputy will hear me. The Opposition ought to be trying to make serious contributions but instead they treat us to a debate of the kind we have just heard. I should like to refer to points made by Deputies. The matters of the orders by Irish Shipping and by NET have been raised by a number of Deputies. In regard to Irish Shipping, and the matter of Verolme Cork Dockyard, the choice was a simple one between the building of a car ferry which requires a whole series of skills and many different sorts of workers, a lot of joinery and a lot of plumbing, on the one hand, and building series-produced extremely simple floating cans, bulk carriers on the other hand. In the case of the series-produced bulk carriers there is no possibility that any shipyard in Europe, because of the intense investment in very heavy specialist capital equipment of Japanese shipyards, can compete. On the other hand, in labour-intensive areas with complex ships like car ferries, with our cost structure, we can compete. The irresponsible request of the Opposition amounts to asking us to force Verolme into an area of production where every ship is guaranteed to be loss-making and where one threatens the whole economic future of that shipyard, and force them out of making a car ferry, an area where they can be competitive and where they can guarantee their future. That is what this mountebank piece of political prostitution in regard to Verolme would result in.

Mr. Dowling

That is a serious allegation to be made against Verolme. If that company did not want the contract they would not have tendered for it. Intelligent men are involved there also.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy persists in ignoring the Chair he knows the outcome. He must restrain himself.

Mr. O'Malley

The Chair should ask the Minister to restrain himself.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am asking the Deputy to restrain himself. He was allowed to make his contribution without interruption.

Mr. Dowling

I should like to point out that the directors of Verolme tendered for the ship.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not entitled to point out anything.

Mr. O'Malley

Not if he sits on this side of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a reflection on the Chair.

Mr. O'Malley

Will the Minister tell us when Verolme will be given the contract for the car ferry? The Minister for Labour said the contract would be awarded before the end of November.

Mr. Keating

The Deputy knows that in reply to such a debate I am not in a position to give that sort of information. It is another piece of the sort of trivial cleverality I have been listening to.

Mr. O'Malley

It was the Minister who introduced the topic of the car ferry.

Mr. Keating

And the little bit of trivial cleverality was introduced by Deputy O'Malley. I did not introduce the topic of the car ferry in my opening speech; it was introduced by Opposition Deputies and I am replying to them. If the Deputy does not like the reply he ought to study it before he says the silly things he has already said.

Mr. O'Malley

The Minister is being selective. Was it silly of me to ask when the order would be placed?

Mr. Keating

A silly, trivial piece of superficial cleverality.

Mr. O'Malley

Why? Is it because it does not suit the Minister to be asked that question?

Mr. Keating

The Deputy knows well that I am not in a position to answer that question.

Mr. O'Malley

The Minister for Labour said the contract would be placed by the end of November.

An Ceann Comhairle

The interruptions should cease.

Mr. Dowling

This Minister has answered about the ships which is a matter for the Minister for Transport and Power.

Mr. Keating

The decision in regard to NET was a difficult one. I went into the matter thoroughly and I should like to state emphatically that I take full responsibility for the matter. The situation is that there is a firm in Ireland who have been doing structural steelwork very well for some time. The firm have a good record in an area where the present economic position is very difficult. They tendered for a piece of steelwork which is the core of the Nítrigin Éireann plant in Cork. It is built into the central part of the plant. The tender was for a kind of work the firm had never previously done. The firm do not employ any qualified engineer although they have a quantity surveyor on their staff. One has to balance a number of things against each other in this situation: firstly, the damage to Irish jobs and to the Irish economy of either a major delay which would run into millions of pounds for NET or of a blow-out of the product which could not sustain the design performance for the requisite period on the one hand, against the jobs of people in a Dublin steel erecting firm. I had to take professional advice and the strong professional advice of the Irish engineers building and operating that plant was that the risk was too great.

Mr. O'Malley

Kellogs were the consultants.

Mr. Keating

I am talking about the staff of NET. The firm were offered alternative work in the structural steel area, in their own area of acknowledged expertise, as a compensation for a kind of work they had never done before. The risks to Irish workers and to the Irish economy of any error was very great.

Mr. Dowling

Compensation?

Mr. Keating

Would the Deputy prefer if they did not get compensation? In my view it was reasonable to offer them other work of a kind in which they are expert.

Mr. Dowling

It must have been a conscience problem.

Mr. O'Malley

Why did a director of NET tell them they had got the contract?

Mr. Keating

I do not know the answer to that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister must be allowed to make his speech in his own way without interruption.

Mr. Keating

As to what was said by a director of NET to that company I have heard various rumours and I am not in a position to be clear about the accuracy or otherwise of them.

Mr. Dowling

The Minister is responsible for sabotaging that one. What about Irish Life, Posts and Telegraphs and the Creation Group? The Minister cannot be selective.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy persists in interrupting and showing disregard for the Chair I shall have to ask him to leave.

Mr. Keating

In regard to cost-per-job we have been talking about I should like to state that often Deputies misquote information which is readily available in the Library of this House. I recommend that Deputies use that Library where they will find the staff very helpful. The information is contained in the IDA annual reports. If people were to familiarise themselves with the readily available documents in the Library before coming in here they would not say many of the things that have been said in this debate. For instance, Deputy Crowley gave a figure of £50,000 per job. The average grant is less than £3,000 per job. The great majority of all grants work out at less than £10,000, and anything of what one might call the tens of thousands is very rare indeed.

Mr. Dowling

To be fair to Deputy Crowley, he mentioned a certain industry.

Mr. O'Malley

One could not expect him to be fair to Deputy Crowley or to anybody else.

Mr. Keating

He gave a wrong, totally crazy figure. On the other hand, I have been hearing talk about capital intensive and labour intensive industries, without quantification. Let me try to quantify. We do not have highly capital intensive industry except very rarely where the contribution from the IDA is tiny. I have seen EEC documents in regard to regional development, particularly in regard to the Italian input, stating that unless you were putting in certain sorts of petro-chemical developments in the south of Italy of £150,000 per job, the possibility of real viability did not exist and one should not bother with it. We do not have that order.

We do not have capital intensive industry. That is simply a misunderstanding. The range of grants per job, which is readily available from IDA reports down the years, is very low. Nobody is holding out information. I make this offer to Deputies: if things are not in IDA reports, which are very extensive and readily available, I urge people if they do not want to have a sort of ding-dong supplementary question about it, to use the mechanism of putting down a question for written reply. We will be happy to provide the information if they will use that mechanism.

Mr. Dowling

Would the Minister indicate the IDA attitude to a small firm with, say 50 jobs as against a fully automated industry?

Mr. Keating

I will talk about it later. Let me dispose of some of the smaller points first. Deputies spoke on behalf of particular areas, west Cork, Waterford, Wexford, Dublin and so forth. It is only right Deputies should, but I want to say this in regard to IDA policy for particular towns, areas, regions. There are good statistics which indicate needs. It is possible to rank towns and areas according to their need. Need is the criterion that determines the IDA urging people to particular action, and no amount of intervention from Deputies on this or that side of the House on behalf of their particular areas—we listen to what is being said—will distort the correct technical decision made by the IDA because in the long run that is the best, in the long run the money and the effort go to where the need is greatest, and measurement of greatest need is relatively easy to do on the basis of statistics which are easily available. It does not matter that Deputies intervene from one side or the other, no matter which rank or from which area, because the IDA have the brief, which I will defend, of doing justice to the limit of their resources to regions in precise relation to a readily determined need. That is the guideline and nothing that is said in this House will distort that guideline in my time here.

Mr. Tunney

Was that not always the way? Was that not always the guideline for the IDA?

Mr. Keating

I believe it was always the public guideline. I believe, although I cannot prove it, that efforts were made by individuals to use pressures to distort the application of these guidelines in favour of particular regions.

Mr. Tunney

The Minister is only saying that.

Mr. Keating

I want to talk about the matter of large industries versus small industries and in this context I would beg people not to be saying as a new thought: "Why do we not do such and such a thing?", when in fact it has been going on for a long time and there is not the faintest secrecy about it. The amounts are spelled out in detail in the documents published by the IDA, and anybody who would pay the IDA or the Dáil the compliment of familiarising himself with available documents would know that. I should like Deputies to compare what has been said with the contents of readily available and known material.

I shall turn to the matter of small versus large industry. First, it has been presented as being a choice— that you cannot have both. That is nonsense because not alone can you have both but you must have both: one must simultaneously keep going the development of big industry, of small industry, of foreign industry, of domestic industry. They must be kept going hand in hand, and it is possible to do so. I will come to the matter of the origins of policy about foreign investment a little later. Now I will deal with some of the scales of investment in recent years. I will try to give the House a précis of the figures of the scale of investment. In my time in the IDA I do not think I made a serious change of direction but I made a change of emphasis: I said as a new Minister in my opening discussions with the IDA that I wanted emphasis placed on small industry and on the Irish, relatively. That is in no way to attack past policy of attracting overseas investment, which I sustain and the IDA sustain. It is a question of doing something else as well. In the first eight months of 1974, the fixed asset investment by domestic industry was £49.6 million. In the first eight months of 1975, it was £127.3 million, two-and-a-half times as big as in the comparable period. IDA grants rose from £12 million to £22 million in that period, nearly double, and the potential jobs —let us be clear about this distinction, the jobs that will be created when the projects are completed—rose from 3,700 to 5,500.

Mr. O'Malley

What are the corresponding figures for foreign industries?

Mr. Keating

Fixed asset investment by domestic industry—I have not the figures for eight month periods but I can give them for April-December, 1974—the total was £287.2 million; job potential, 19,818 and the IDA grant approvals, £66½ million. That is the nearest I can get to the later period. It is April-December rather than January-August but at least it will give the Deputy some idea of the orders of magnitude.

The other point I want to make is about the effort domestically. You do not get instant results. This domestic effort has, in fact, been going on for two-and-a-half years. The fact is that of the 17,000 job approvals expected this year the greater share, more than half, 9,000, will be provided by domestic industry.

I have talked enough figures. Let me affirm policy on this. The policy is that if we can go on getting inflow of foreign industrialists on the scale we have been getting in the past, well and good but that is not a policy by itself; that is half a policy; and the other half is to stimulate indigenous entrepreneurs and to provide them with all the money that they come asking for. In fact, the figures I have given are an indication of a change of direction of some years standing. Probably it was already changing before my time but it certainly was encouraged and strengthened in my time and the figures are evidence of its happening. You cannot make sudden changes. There is a lee time of 18 months. If Deputies say let us do that, my answer is, yes, let us go on doing it. We have been doing it and it is correct that we should be doing it. So, there really should not be major argument about that.

I want to turn now to some of the points raised, not today but on the first day. Deputy O'Malley said in his interjection a little while ago that it was not normal for me to be fair. I want to try to document that that observation is true but it is true about him and not about me. I want to use figures from his Second Reading speech on this Bill because Deputy O'Malley gave a quotation in regard to export performance which in my view was selective to the point of unfairness and to the point of the misuse of statistics. His statistic was accurate but it was used in a distorted way. I am quoting from Deputy O'Malley on 2nd December this year as column 623 of the Official Report where he said:

The industrial side of the economy particularly was never more static than it is today...Our exports of manufactured goods classified by material——

That is the nub of it—and then he gave the figures for export of manufactured goods classified by material and he said that there had been in fact very little change in the value. That is true but if he looked up in the export statistics, which I have no doubt he did, the different headings he would find industrial exports comprised four different headings: chemicals, he did not quote; machinery and transport equipment, he did not quote; manufactured goods not exactly specified, he did not quote. What he did quote was manufactured goods classified by material. Normal export figures for manufactured goods comprise those four headings, Nos. 5 to 8, in fact, in the export tables. The one he did give over the five years had an infinitesimal change from £165 million to £166 million but the ones he did not give: machinery and transport equipment, went from £95 million odd to £129 million odd; chemicals went from £78 million odd to £88 million odd; manufactured goods not exactly specified went from £99 million odd to £116 million odd. The three the Deputy left out all showed substantial gains and the one he was happy to read on to the record for the unsuspecting people, under the heading of export of manufactured goods classified by material, was the one that stood still. If you take the four figures today the headings 5 to 8 rose from £439 million odd to £500 million odd, which was an increase of £61 million.

Mr. O'Malley

Yes, less than 20 per cent increase in value.

Mr. Keating

Anybody who wants can read the Deputy's speech of 2nd December. Then I say to the students who I hope will carry out the project: "Look at the export statistics and say is that honest or is that tendentious? Is that a carrect use of statistics or the deliberate use of statistics to mislead? Is that, in fact, the sort of whining that is designed to pull down the general industrial and economic atmosphere in difficult times or is it an accurate reflection of the performance of our export industry?" I leave that judgment to other people but let Deputy O'Malley not talk about being fair with a performance like that on the record of the House. It was a pitiful, tendentious misuse of statistics.

Mr. O'Malley

Would it not be useful if the television camera could capture the hate we have seen in the last 30 seconds or so?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Malley, please. Order. The Minister without interruption.

Mr. O'Malley

I do not want to interrupt the Minister but could I refer him to the four categories which he speaks about in which there was an increase in value from, I think, £440 million to £500 million and would he not agree with me that that increase in value is less than 20 per cent and therefore there is a decrease in volume of exports under those four headings and that is what I am saying?

Mr. Keating

I have put what I wanted to say about that on the record. Deputy O'Malley put what he wanted to say on the record on 2nd December.

Mr. O'Malley

And I am perfectly right.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. The Minister must be allowed to make his contribution.

Mr. Keating

I invite people who are familiar with the honest and dishonest use of statistics——

Mr. O'Malley

There is a decrease in the volume of exports and a decrease in the volume of production.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. Deputy O'Malley has made his contribution. If there are relevant questions to the Minister they may be taken when the Minister has concluded. In the meantime the Minister must be allowed to make his contribution without interruption.

Mr. Keating

I could go on at great length but I want simply to make one other reference to Deputy O'Malley's speech. There are countries which earn a great deal of amusement around the world by falsifying history. Serious people laugh at them when they disgrace themselves. It is a bit sad when that sort of falsification of history, and, indeed, of very recent history, finds its way on to the record of this House. It is sad in the same sense of inadequate opposition that I referred to at the beginning of my speech because there are so many people around who know that when people say idiotic things as Deputy O'Malley said idiotic things in his potted history of Irish economic development which we heard on 2nd December, all that happens——

Mr. Tunney

Having regard to the case being made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce——

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy raising a point of order.

Mr. Tunney

Absolutely. He should at least have the benefit of his back-up service. There should be a quorum.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Mr. Keating

I was talking about the version of Irish economic history given by Deputy O'Malley and I would beg students of politics and of economic history to read the Deputy's speech as an example of the rewriting of history. The only aspect of it that I want to touch on is the aspect where he talked about a major change in policy from 1958 onwards. That is setting the major change of direction which occurred in the fifties much too late and there are many documents and records of speeches to verify that.

The foreign investment campaign was launched by the then Minister for Industry and Commerce in 1955, the late Mr. William Norton, who happened also to be Leader of the Labour Party. What I found so ludicrous in the Deputy's account of history was his inference that all innovation, all change of policy came from those now in Opposition, that they were the only source of initiative or ideas. However, if Deputy O'Malley reads the history of the IDA or the history of the greatest single piece of weaponry in their whole armoury—the export tax relief—he will find that what he says is ignorant fiction. I shall not say any more about it other than to comment that it is pitiful and that I commend it as an example of the falsification of history for party political reasons to those who take a wry pleasure in the perusal of such material. I commend it to students because they ought to know the extent to which the propaganda machine of Fianna Fáil, quite cavalier about facts, has been trying systematically, to rewrite Irish economic history and other sorts of history also.

The Bill is a small one and part of a series, not of voting money, but of raising the limit. In relation to Irish industrial promotion I would refer to a very interesting paper by Ciarán Kennedy which I read first in the spring when it was produced as a house paper for his institute and published subsequently in a review of the Central Bank. Mr. Kennedy is saying in that paper that the Danes were successful in the field of industrial promotion without bodies such as the IDA, the CTT and without the whole battery of support that we possess. Despite the praise accorded to Mr. Kennedy for his views we hear nothing from the Opposition but demands for more of the IDA and CTT type of promotion. This is an example of the inconsistency of Fianna Fáil. We are clear as to what we are doing.

We are carrying forward and expanding the policy of the IDA to a higher level of activity than has ever been the case previously. The only source of embarrassment to the IDA that I have found is the sort of despair, the lack of understanding on the part of the Opposition regarding anything the Authority are trying to do. While it is not probable in the near future it is thinkable that at some stage again the Opposition may find themselves on this side of the House so it is important that they help to sustain the IDA. It is important, too, that the xenophobia which was in many speeches from the other side but which was not the practice of that party while in Government should not continue because some foreign industrialists have said to me that while they thought they were welcome to set up here, they wondered whether this is the case in view of some of the talk they have heard. This line should not be continued by Fianna Fáil particularly in the light of recent events concerning "republicans". What is important is reassurance in so far as these industrialists are concerned.

The IDA are the main plank of the Government's industrial promotion policy. The Authority are functioning with a larger budget and on a larger scale than ever has been the case previously. They are the envy of many countries. To those people who say that there should be closer scrutiny of the use of IDA funds let me say that their failure rate is regarded as being one of the lowest in the world for such a body and that they are the envy of people in many countries, that their morale is very high, that people engaged in their work of promotion are operating to the limits of human strength in doing a difficult job in difficult times but doing it very well. I do not say that to have inherited this body and to merely let it continue as it is is enough. We have changed the direction of the IDA towards small industries and towards Irish industry. That evolution of policy will not stop. We have now the special project identification initiative as well as some other initiatives. I have mentioned an upcoming IDA Bill that will be ready in the near future but I am convinced that what we must do in regard to our industrial policy now is not to have dramatic lurches of change of direction in the middle of a recession but to make work as effectively as possible all the constituent elements of the Authority and to add new elements where there is a sign of weakness. And there is weakness, though less than there was, in regard to small industries and to Irish industries. In part, these have been repaired and will be repaired to a greater degree. These weaknesses were inherited by us but my initiative began within months of my assuming office.

At a time when we are happy to have every job possible, whether labour-intensive, capital-intensive, foreign or Irish, the last thing we need is a dramatic initiative. Rather, we need a strengthening of existing policies and of any weak spots there may be. That is the policy being pursued vigorously and with a steady hand by this Government. I am not saying that what exists is complete but what is there is good. I had thought that we might have developed a national debate about the other aspects and have got a national consensus so that the enacting of further developments of basic industrial policy would have been made easier but we did not have a serious debate on this Bill. I say that with regret.

I am afraid, even in Opposition, the paucity of ideas in regard to industrial development is as great on the part of the Fianna Fáil Party as when they were on this side of the House. I greatly regret that a subject, which I thought would be narrow and brief originally, turned out to be widened. I say, with regret, that it was widened without being deepened. It is a serious subject at a serious time in the country's economy. If the Opposition, with their understanding of procedures in the House, have contributions to make let them take a little longer and prepare them a little better than they prepared themselves for this debate. Will they please go away and do the thinking first and even know the source of some of the ideas they read into the record—which evidently Deputy O'Malley did not on 2nd December, or the date on which those ideas were put forward, which he did not know either— and then use the procedures of the House which give them ample opportunity to debate in full industrial development in general and the policy of the IDA and my Department in particular? The next time will they try to do that seriously?

Mr. O'Malley

Would the most unsuccessful Minister for Industry and Commerce since the establishment of the State tell the House what he proposes to do about 108,333 people unemployed and about the scores of factories all over the country that have closed in the last 12 months? Will he devote some of his time and energy to that rather than to personal abuse of the Opposition from start to finish? There is a loud silence.

Mr. Tunney

May I ask the Minister one question in response to his invitation and his interest, which he thinks we do not share, in Irish workers and Irish capital?

Mr. Keating

I know the Deputy has an interest in Irish workers.

Mr. Tunney

Would the Minister ask his Department to investigate the circumstances under which an Irish company, which got and are getting IDA aid, Irish Lifts, did not get the relatively small contract, £30,000 to £40,000 for the installation of lifts in the Industrial Credit Company building and why an English company got it?

Mr. Keating

I will certainly have that investigated and communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. O'Malley

Is the Minister now prepared to answer my question as to what he proposes to do about the 108,333 people unemployed and the scores, if not hundreds, of factories which have closed down since he took charge of the Department? The Minister apparently would not care to answer because he could not care less. He spent 40 minutes abusing the Opposition.

Mr. Keating

The Deputy used the word "abuse" a moment ago. He committed the fault he attributes to others.

Mr. O'Malley

I hope the students of economics we are all so worried about will read something into that.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?

Mr. Keating

Now.

Mr. O'Malley

Next week. There is an amendment from the Minister I was not told anything about. I only got it five seconds ago.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The amendment, of course, has to be held until the Second Stage is agreed.

Mr. O'Malley

Yes, but the normal practice on the part of every Government, as I understand it, with the sole exception of this Minister for Industry and Commerce, is to give information of this kind in advance to the Opposition spokesman. I have never got any such information, co-operation or assistance whatever from the present Minister for Industry and Commerce. I have been handed this amendment within the last minute. I asked for one of my own which I put in an hour ago. I assumed that my amendment was the only one but I am now handed an amendment by the Minister that I knew absolutely nothing about. I have not read it so I cannot take it. We can fix the Committee Stage for next week.

Mr. Keating

I have no wish, if the Opposition do not wish to take the Committee Stage now, to proceed with it. Can I say, simply for the record, that if the Opposition spokesman is not in possession of my amendment I do not know where the lack of passing it on has taken place. I understood it was agreed but I do not see how that can be if the Opposition did not know it existed. I want to repudiate the suggestion that there was any deliberate intention on my part to withhold it from the Deputy. I certainly have had it since the introduction of the Second Stage of this Bill. It is a simple technical amendment and there was no reason whty he could not have had it then. I regret that he has not had it until now. There was no point in withholding it from the Deputy because there was nothing in it. It is a mere technicality. The first thing on Tuesday.

Mr. O'Malley

Four o'clock on Tuesday.

Committee Stage ordered for 4 o'clock on Tuesday, 16th December, 1975.