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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 24 Feb 1976

Vol. 288 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Veterinary Dispute: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann condemns the failure of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to secure a settlement of the dispute which has brought the bovine brucellosis and tuberculosis eradication schemes to a virtual standstill and calls for an immediate restoration of these vital services.

I move this motion because for the past 12 months or so the animal disease eradication programmes which have been running in this country —the bovine tuberculosis scheme for 21 years and the brucellosis scheme for about nine years—have come to a virtual standstill.

As far as I am aware, no worthwhile or real attempt has been made by the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to secure a resumption of disease eradication. I do not know whether any trade dispute in the recent history of the country has been permitted to drag on for such an extraordinary length of time especially when one considers that there is no necessity whatever for a cessation of bovine tuberculosis testing. As far as I am aware, no dispute whatever exists between the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and the veterinary profession in regard to bovine TB testing, but since the 16th May last the Minister himself has caused the bovine TB eradication scheme to grind to a halt.

There have been a number of attempts on the part of the Minister and his colleagues in the Government to seek to ascribe the blame for the recent situation to areas other than where it rightly and properly belongs, that is to say, on the shoulders of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries himself. In considering these facts, the Minister must stand condemned in the eyes of everybody in the country, particularly in the eyes of the farming community whose livelihood is most immediately bound up with the future of the cattle herd in this country. As I say, no serious attempt has been make by the Minister to emerge from his entrenched position in this dispute and come to terms with the veterinary profession.

It would be an interesting exercise to attempt to come to a figure that would represent the loss in millions of pounds that has been caused by the intransigence and incompetence of the Minister. One must use these words when one is talking about a trade dispute that has been allowed to fester for 12 months. Surely during the passage of that time some solution, if it were earnestly sought, would have been found a long time ago. If one were to attempt to put a figure to the nearest £10 million on the losses that have been sustained by the reinfection of the cattle herd right throughout the length and breadth of the country, both with active tuberculosis and brucellosis, I am sure it would come to a sum that would appall the whole country. We recognise the appalling damage that has been done to the cattle herd generally by the present administration, apart from animal disease. We recognise that the value of the drop in the numbers of cattle in the last 12 months, valuing them consevatively indeed, is probably in the region of £10 million. The cattle herd is diminished by that amount in value and in numbers, although the price per head for cattle on the market at present is quite buoyant.

What I am endeavouring to point out is that the results that have been attained over 21 years of campaigning in bovine tuberculosis and in nine years of brucellosis testing has been put totally in jeopardy by the intransigence and incompetence of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and his colleagues in the Government with whom he shares responsibility.

At present throughout the country, if anybody takes the trouble to inquire, open cases of bovine tuberculosis, open active lesions, are being discovered in carcases in every meat factory. Throughout the length and breadth of the country, north and south, brucellosis is raging. As everybody knows, both these diseases have very, very serious implications for human health as well as for animal health. Their spread endangers the health of the population with the transmission in the case of brucellosis through milking and other ways causing chronic undulant fever, with infection of humans with tuberculosis as well.

It is an appalling state of affairs when farmer co-operatives in the north-western part of this country are issuing circulars to their shareholders warning them of the danger in purchasing calves from the south of Ireland because they are said to be so laden with brucellosis as to be a danger to the diminishing health levels of cattle in the northern part of the country. It is true to say that our own countrymen in this part of the country are taking care to warn their shareholders that the purchase of calves and young stock from the south is courting disaster.

This is the situation that has been allowed to grow in the last 12 months by the failure of the Minister to bring about an end to the dispute with the veterinary profession. Exports to the Six Counties have almost ceased for the same reason. More recently the very influential British farmers' chairman, Sir Harry Plum, issued a very dire warning which I would interpret as a notice to the Irish Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to take his finger out of his mouth and get on with the business of settling this strike at once.

The Irish store cattle trade is still of great value to the cattle industry here. We would naturally prefer to see an increasing number of our own cattle being processed in our own factories but until such time as the commercial practices of both the co-operatives and the privately-owned factories have been improved, possibly by legislation, it will be necessary for the live export trade to be maintained in order to keep some price discipline on the meat factories.

We raise this question against the background that has been there all the time, against which we have been attempting to eradicate these two diseases in particular.

On the 1st January, 1978, we will have entered a completely new situation. Unless the situation alters very dramatically in our favour in the meantime—and there is no reason to expect that it will—our cattle, either alive or dead, will not be able to gain entry into the EEC, and that means Britain as well as the remaining seven continental countries. During the past 12 months we have seen our seed stock, the calf herd, robbed, totally uncontrolled or interfered with. Even that trade, destructive as it was to the real interests of Irish farmers, will have to be stopped. The overall drop in the numbers of herd in the past 12 months alone adds up to a staggering 533,000 cattle. If these cattle are valued at a very conservative £200 per head, one will realise the size of the hammering the cattle industry has taken at the hands of the Government.

To the bitter amusement of the nation the Tánaiste suddenly discovered that what the country needs is an economic plan. He has been sitting quite happily in Government for the past three years and only last night it struck him that we needed an economic plan. We should probably say "better late than never". If there is to be an economic plan, if there is to be a rebuilding after the wreckage wrought by the Coalition Government to the economy generally over the past three years, it must be based on the agricultural industry.

About 24 per cent of our work force is engaged directly in agriculture and a further 22 per cent are engaged in directly processing the products of their labours. This makes approximately 45 per cent of the work force engaged in these industries. In all these areas, there must be a sharp slide. This party warned the Government almost 12 months ago that if there was to be a continuation of this totally uncontrolled exploitation of the cattle industry, in the long run it would amount to massive disemployment in the meat industry. This is upon us now. The Government statistics show a drop in numbers of every type of cattle. Cows in the dairy herd were down nearly 50,000; other cows were down by 127,000. These figures, supplied by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, are not reliable because they are taken from a very small sample. The reality is that about one-third of all the cows in the country were slaughtered last year and a great many of those were in calf. In the case of heifers under one year, the drop is 100,000. That is the kind of management we are dealing with at present.

As I said, it has just struck the Tánaiste that an economic plan is needed. It should strike other members of the Government, and possibly the Tánaiste too, that the first thing to do is to start rebuilding the herd to the level it was in 1973, and thereafter continue its expansion to a target figure of ten million cattle of all kinds. They need not necessarily stop at that figure. There will be no economic plan for recovery unless we begin with the cattle industry. Both the dairy and meat processing industries depend on the prosperity and well-being of the cattle industry, as does the prosperity of the country as a whole.

It must be plain even to the members of the Government, none of whom has any direct connection with agriculture and possibly ought not to be expected to appreciate the value of the industry to the country, that the resource upon which our eventual recovery from the havoc wrought by the Coalition must be based on the rebuilding of the cattle industry. Even the former pace of eradication before the present dispute occurred was unsatisfactory. The rate of disease eradication during our administration was not fast enough but it was a great deal faster than the backward sliding we are experiencing now.

If any realistic attempt is to be made in reaching the EEC deadline by 1978—or even by 1980—the Government will have to face this reality. A totally new approach to the general question of animal disease eradication will have to be made. For this purpose, a special task force will have to be created. They will have to enlist the participation of every veterinary surgeon in the country. It will also necessitate the participation of lay staff. This, I understand, is the nub of the dispute between the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and the veterinary profession. It has been thrashed about stupidly and aimlessly for the past six or eight months without any achievement.

The Minister must face the reality that he is dealing with a hard, tough trade union who will not take dictation from him or anybody else. It would be wrong to say he is dealing with people who would put the welfare of the country in jeopardy for their own selfish means. That would be an over-statement and possibly a false one. That being the case, we must take a new look at the approach we are making to animal health. We will require to double the efforts made prior to the dispute. I would call it a lock out rather than a strike. Unless we do that, we will not be able to export cattle after 1978, and that is unthinkable. It may be that it will be possible to negotiate some cheapjack rate for our products after that. That is not what we want. We want to get top quality prices for our top quality produce. They will not be top quality unless we eliminate disease. Far from there being no disease elimination over the past 12 months, there has been very rapid regression and a sliding back into the uncontrolled disease situation which obtained many decades ago before any attempts at disease eradication were made.

The Minister has been doing a Duke of York act for the past 12 months on the question of lay staff. The original proposal was that lay staff should be used for the taking of blood samples in the brucellosis scheme. The veterinary profession object that this is a job of a professional kind which they and they alone should carry out. This question is unresolved. There must be a settlement. There must be a compromise. The compromise I would suggest to the Minister and the veterinary profession is this: in the context of a new and vigorous and properly financed assault on animal disease, the incorporation of lay staff for the carrying out of non-professional tasks within this new animal disease task force.

The first task one would think of for using this type of staff would be the mobilisation of herds for blood sampling and testing and reading. The common practice on the ground, the common experience on the ground, is that when the veterinary practitioner arrives to test the herd, as often as not he is late for his appointment because of previous bad staff work and the herd may have been released again and have to be rounded up again. Expensive veterinary time is frittered away while the herd is rounded up, put in the crush and made ready for his professional attentions.

I should like to see lay staff doing the business of ear tag reading and the recording of ear tags, and the recording of tests, and test measurements in the case of bovine tuberculosis, skin measurements and, in general, the courier type of work which is so necessary in properly organised disease eradication. I do not see why this would be unacceptable to the Minister or the veterinary profession. If the Government show their earnestness, and the reality of their realisation of the vital urgency of the expansion of animal disease eradication, when the need for lay staff is demonstrated, the veterinary profession will accept it.

For the moment before accelerated eradication takes place—and it must take place immediately or soon, at any rate—the lay staff ought not to be called upon to do any type of professional work. Thereafter I would expect and hope that the demands on professional skills and time would be such that, with the acceleration of disease eradication, the veterinary profession would recognise that certain types of work might then be undertaken by the lay staff, provided always there were no veterinary surgeons available to do that work. The field of animal disease eradication is so wide that any fears the veterinary profession might have of working themselves out of a job, as it were, would be groundless.

I do not think the Government will last much longer. I think the task will be ours. I hope when we get the chance we will have a major assault on animal disease. The reason I would entertain that hope is this. If we do not have it, we are letting down the main resource this country has got for economic recovery. We will not be able to do it unless we get serious about it. I do not want to dwell again on the appalling destruction which has been wrought by the Government on the cattle herds in the past three years. It is intolerable that even this Government should contemplate its continuation. Certainly when the change comes, and coming it is, it will not be tolerated.

The Minister's attitude, as far as one can read it throughout this whole affair, his approach to the veterinary profession, is as if he were saying to them: "Do as I say or else." That approach to a union of the strength of the veterinary union is simply not realistic, and the pawns in the game are the herd owners. One suspects that, lurking somewhere at the back of the lethargy of the Government in all this, is a secret rejoicing in the Department of Finance and by the Minister, Deputy Ryan, at the enormous amounts of money he has not got to spend buying reactors out of herds which have been tested and reactors identified.

It is the blindest Mad Hatter economics one could possibly imagine but one suspects, because of the total inertia of the Government that there must be some secret acceptance: "Damn it all, even if the herds go to pot, and if the work of the Fianna Fáil Governments over the past 21 years is to be set at nought, look at all the reactors we do not have to buy. Look at all the millions we have saved. We can dish this money out to the people to purchase their votes," as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach said. The Government have no hesitation and no compunction about lavishing hundreds of millions of pounds higgledy-piggledy on what Deputy Kelly, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, says is the purchase of votes for the next election. When the health of Ireland's No. 1 national asset is at stake evidently no money is to be spent. This is a nice cameo of the savage cynicism of the Government. It falls to our lot for the time being to point out from this side of the House that we recognise this cynicism and condemn it.

The Minister and the veterinary unions have no right to hold this country up to ransom. Having said that, I want to say without any reservation that this party believe that the onus is on the Minister, and on the Minister alone because of the office he holds, for the immediate settlement of this strike. This strike can be settled. Whatever the difficulties are the contemplation of a continuation of the strike for another week, or another month, is unthinkable. Even though members of the Government might not have a personal commitment in the cattle trade they have no right to wreck the efforts made by the herd owners under the direction of successful Governments—almost all Fianna Fáil—in eliminating animal disease.

The progress made in the case of bovine tuberculosis in 21 years is in jeopardy again, particularly in Kilkenny and Waterford. Those counties are in dire need of special attention, possibly by annual testing, until bovine tuberculosis has been eradicated. However, nothing has been done and the Minister, in his extraordinary manner, seems, like Pontius Pilate, to wash his hands and say he is not guilty; it is not his baby. The responsibility is the Minister's alone. He should incorporate lay staff, with the co-operation of the veterinary profession, to carry out unprofessional jobs. He should concurrently undertake to make a real attack on animal disease and not just mark time and keep the disease eradication programme ticking over. The EEC door has been shut in our face and there is only one way to open it, by a serious disease eradication programme. If we show we are serious the door may be opened. It is not realistic to expect that we will have attestation status, especially in brucellosis, before the 1st January, 1978.

The Government should demonstrate to the veterinary union that they are in earnest about carrying out a realistic attack on animal disease. If they could be convinced that their professional future was assured they would take a different view of the question of the lay staff but it is not on to use lay staff for professional purposes with the low intensity campaign that is being operated at present. The field of veterinary medicine is vast as is the field of disease eradication. There are so many epizootic diseases that have not been thought of at all. One that comes to mind immediately is mastitis.

One could contemplate the creation of a national veterinary health scheme, possibly contributory. I hope the day that will come about is not too far off. I hope when the management of agricultural affairs passes into our hands again we will examine that idea in detail. We need a massive attack on animal disease, a proving to the veterinary profession of the sincerity of the Government. If this is demonstrated, the co-operation of the veterinary profession will be won. I suggest that the Minister fall back to using the staff for non-professional work only. I accept that there will be a need for a great many lay staff and in that the Minister's position was probably the right one but it will not be possible to use lay staff for professional duties in the present situation. I appeal to the Minister to face his responsibility. A further continuation of this strike is impossible and unthinkable. The strike must end now.

Seldom have I listened to so much drivel as that uttered by Deputy Gibbons.

Starting off on a helpful note in a delicate situation?

I am starting off on a factual basis. At a time when all parties in this House, and all farming organisations, should be showing their best endeavours to resolve this difficulty through the strike of the veterinary surgeons we should make a factual appraisal of the position and put the blame where it should rest. The eradication of brucellosis and BTE is of great importance. That has been realised since we commenced the TB eradication scheme 22 years ago. The cost to the Exchequer of the scheme, up to the end of 1975 was £93.9 million. From 1957 to 1973 Fianna Fáil were in office and Deputy Gibbons was Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries during that period. On several occasions then I mentioned that we were dissatisfied with the progress of the eradication scheme. We felt that with the limited number of cattle, and the expense involved, the disease could have been eradicated some years ago if there was a proper drive by the Department then. However, they did not do so and the position is not a bright one in some areas including Deputy Gibbons's county.

A few weeks following the outbreak of the strike I said it was not good for us to be declaring publicly our factual position as far as the eradication of BTE and brucellosis is concerned. We all know about the value of our cattle industry without being informed by Deputy Gibbons and we are tremendously pleased that cattle prices are quite good. In the 1974 period when there was a falling off in cattle prices, particularly in the price of stores and calves, there was a considerable rumpus in the Dáil. One would imagine we were in a theatre because the Opposition were so full of glee that prices were going down. From their point of view the only one to blame was the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. Today there is a different situation. We have a satisfied farming community, whether dairy farmers or beef farmers——

They are using half the amount of fertiliser.

I represent as many farmers as the Deputy——

The Parliamentary Secretary should stick to the point and talk about the subject-matter of the motion.

Generally speaking, we have a contented group of farmers at all levels. They are contented because they are satisfied that the man appointed by this House to take responsibility for agriculture is giving a good account of himself.

I meet as many farmers as any Deputy and I have found that irrespective of their political views they agree that the present Minister is working in a responsible and effective way to improve agriculture at every level. That view is held by many people who will not vote for the National Coalition Government at the next general election because their allegiance is to Fianna Fáil. However, they are broadminded enough to give credit where credit is due. I said the same of individual members of the Opposition when they were in Government. Some of them did a reasonably good job but others were not so good.

Earlier I mentioned that the eradication scheme has cost the people £93.9 million during the years. If that were to be equated in present-day money values, it would be much more because the money spent in the 1950s and the 1960s was worth so much more than at present. There is an obligation on the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries to ensure that a major scheme of such importance is carried out as effectively, efficiently and as economically as possible——

It is not being carried out at all.

The obligation to carry out the scheme as economically as possible rests on the Minister just as much as does the obligation to carry out the scheme effectively and efficiently. What has happened?

The Government packed up.

I do not mind interruptions but I would point out I did not interrupt the Deputy during his speech. I appreciate that in Private Members' business the time of speakers is limited. At this point I should like to summarise Deputy Gibbons's speech. According to his own party he is supposed to be the be-all and end-all of agriculture and no other Member of the House, particularly on the Government side, should dare to speak on the subject. Even those Deputies who represent rural areas are according to him supposed to know very little about agriculture.

So far as the motion we are discussing is concerned, I should like to ask some questions. Did the Minister do something drastic because from Deputy Gibbons's statement one would think he did? The only inference I got was that the Minister, the person who was appointed on 14th March, 1973, to take charge of agriculture, should hand over his powers to the union of the veterinary practitioners. I think that was the sum total of Deputy Gibbons's contribution. It would be a very peculiar Minister and one not worthy to take charge of our major industry if that were to happen. What did he do?

He introduced proposals to employ lay technicians to take blood samples. At the moment the proposals stand that lay technicians be employed in the north-western counties to take blood samples on a 50-50 basis with veterinary practitioners. I do not think that is anything drastic. Did it happen in the northern part of our country? Yes it did, and without any difficulty. Did it happen in the neighbouring island of Britain? Yes it did, and it has worked quite well. All the reports available to the Department indicate that this type of sampling can be taken quite efficiently by lay people. In fact, in the hospitals throughout the country where human beings are concerned lay people take blood samples.

What lay people?

Nurses and other technicians take samples. Doctors do not have to do that.

That is a load of codswallop. Nurses are professional people.

Interruptions will not be allowed. There is a time limit on this debate.

I listened to a lot of codology and bunkum since 7 p.m.

What the Parliamentary Secretary has said is an insult to nurses.

The speaker in possession should not be interrupted. Other Members can reply in their own time in this debate.

We are quite satisfied that this sampling could be done by technicians. If I get a prick of a thorn in my finger, do I send for a doctor to remove it? Not likely. He is above that. If I have 5 cwt of goods to remove I do not employ a ten-ton lorry to do the job and pay the extra cost. I should like to point out that despite all the money paid out, the results were not good. A situation confronted the Minister. The Department found themselves waiting for samples much longer than anticipated. It is on record that the Minister expected a much greater improvement and decided that the employment of lay staff would ensure greater control of the operation of the scheme and a quicker flow of samples to the laboratory. Previously, sampling due to be completed within a year in some instances took two years, double the time.

Our idea was that the lay samplers should work side by side with the professionals and if the lay samplers did a speedier, more effective job, then that would serve as a whip. What right has a group of people who are well paid—I acknowledge they are giving an essential service in so far as the Department are concerned—to hold the gun to the Department's head? During the years, they have been paid more than £30 million for their services. Now they want to dictate to the Minister: "Do not do what you think you should do; you have no right to do it; you must do as we tell you." Deputy Gibbons wants votes but the stock of his party is declining. He would do anything to give him some hope of winning an extra vote.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary remember 14th March?

He would cling on to any straw. He comes in here and has the audacity to declare that the Minister is entirely responsible for the strike. Everybody knows that is rubbish.

If that is the diplomacy you use over there I am sorry for you.

Speaking on 10th June last I said the blame for the dispute must lie with the veterinary practitioners. The Minister was confronted with a demand for an increase of more than 100 per cent in their scale of fees. I mention this because on another occasion a member of the Opposition indicated to the House that the cost of taking blood samples by laboratory technicians would be almost equal to that of the professional people. There is no need to waste time answering that but it is no harm to remind those concerned that money does not fall from heaven, that we have to go to the pockets of the people to finance our operations.

It was completely out of place, when the brucellosis scheme was getting under way, for this professional group to put the gun to the Minister's head and say: "You dare not employ lay technicians. If you do we will go on strike and if you employ us exclusively you will pay us double—86p instead of 43p per sample." Was the Minister to say he could not do anything about it, that they are a special group? I do not believe in pressure groups putting the gun——

They have to pay for petrol and you put the price up.

The Government had to get additional taxation to implement their policies——

To give less employment.

The Government are putting the money to good use. What would be the position today if those people were working as they should be? What would be the position of the scheme this year? Because of the Minister's anxiety to eradicate brucellosis and TB he got approval for a sum of £17.9 million.

There is no dispute about TB.

Of that sum, £9.7 million was to be given to brucellosis eradication and £8.2 million towards the TB scheme. How does that compare with the £7.4 million which Deputy Gibbons allocated to the schemes in the last year of his office?

It was better then.

It was not. I was about to mention something, but I will not. Everybody knows the Minister has had numerous meetings, too numerous to mention. I am aware of them and so are most of the people here who are interested in agriculture. The farming associations were called in. The Minister made every effort to try to get agreement to get the schemes under way again, to try to do what Fianna Fáil failed to do.

The Parliamentary Secretary's party were opposed to EEC membership.

We are a democratic party and when the Irish people gave their verdict we accepted it.

You had to.

We put our views to the people, they decided against us overwhelmingly and as soon as the decision was made we accepted it. Fianna Fáil should accept now that they are in Opposition and that we are in Government and that they should be supporting the Minister in his fair, just and reasonable stand. What are we coming to?

I was about to ask that?

The veterinary profession are very well sheltered. Their incomes, to put it mildly, are exceptionally good.

What about the young vets?

The young vets would very much like to go ahead with the scheme. That is my view and I have had representations from a number of young vets. They would be delighted to participate in the scheme but they cannot do so because there are people at the top who will not move, who say: "We are going to keep the gun to his head." These people should be told where they get off. They are getting a fair deal from the Minister. Indeed, I think he has been a little too soft with them. Instead of getting criticism here, especially from the former Fianna Fáil Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, he should be getting approval for his stand. We cannot afford to be weak-kneed in matters like this.

(Interruptions.)

Deputies should reserve their remarks until their turn comes to speak and allow the Member in possession to make his case.

I know it is the wish of everybody on this side of the House, and I am speaking for the two National Coalition parties, the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, that this dispute be resolved. We know from experience that compromises had to be reached in the past in order to resolve disputes and, in the negotiations the Minister has had with representatives of the veterinary profession, I believe the Minister has gone more than half way in trying to resolve this dispute. In a recent proposal he has suggested that 50 per cent of the work in the north-western clearance area should be carried out by lay technicians and 50 per cent by professional veterinary surgeons. He has mentioned the advisory council about which he will tell the House tomorrow. His aim and objective is to secure on that body the involvement of everyone interested in agriculture. He has included on it the creamery milk suppliers, the farmers' association, the veterinary association and union, the National Agricultural Advisory Body——

——and representatives of the agricultural committees. I believe this broadly based agricultural body is a good idea. It is set up for the purpose of reporting on animal diseases. We all know animal diseases dig deeply into our pockets. When Deputy Haughey was Minister, and that is quite a number of years back, he stated the figure was £25 million. It was a sizeable sum and I am sure it is much more than that now. The position was that we were not getting value for money in some areas. Some of those paid to do a job were not doing it efficiently. The evidence is there in the departmental files in black and white. I do not think we can afford to pay people who do inefficient work.

That is a very serious reflection on the veterinary profession.

It is a serious reflection and it is made here and there is no question of our hiding under any privilege. It is confined to people who really ought to be prosecuted for carrying out so inefficiently the duties for which they were well paid. Now that is not a reflection on the whole profession. It is a reflection on some members of it. Probably the same reflection could be cast on members of other groups.

Everybody knows the facts. They have been stated time and time again here. This proposal to employ lay technicians was under close examination by Fianna Fáil before they left office.

What was under examination?

The employment of lay technicians to take samples, which is exactly what the Minister is proposing to do now. Fianna Fáil had not finalised the scheme before the change of Government. Deputy Gibbons, then Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, and Deputy Colley, then Minister for Finance, had not dealt with the matter finally and you know what happened.

Indeed we do and so does every farmer.

You know what happened. Fianna Fáil must now bear in mind that they will be over there for a long time. I know they would dearly love to have a zip fire lighter, put a match to it and throw it in to keep the dispute going in the hope that it will embarrass the Minister and the Government. That would serve Deputy Colley's purpose. I say that deliberately.

He is a faithful Parliamentary Secretary.

I hope common sense will prevail among those involved in this dispute. Indeed, many of them do not want it any more than the Minister does. They are fed up with it. They know they are being treated fairly. They should go out and do their job. They should get a democratic voting system so that those who are anxious to get back to work would be able to do so with the small number of lay technician samplers to be appointed for the purpose of eradicating brucellosis from our cattle. I have stated facts. I am a firm believer in making factual statements.

I second the motion. I listened very attentively to the Parliamentary Secretary and I was hoping he would be able to tell us that the end of the dispute was in sight. I am afraid the reverse is the case. If the Minister adopts the same provocative attitude as his Parliamentary Secretary adopted tonight the dispute will be with us for a long time to come.

Hear, hear.

Following the introduction of the calf heifer scheme and the beef incentive scheme our national herd had been expanding at an ever-increasing rate. Unfortuately this is no longer the case. The recent cattle census shows there has been a drastic decline in cattle numbers. The export of calves and the large-scale slaughter of cows over the past year or two have contributed to the destruction of our national herd. Because of that it is most important now that the Government should display foresight and understanding in all their negotiations and all their dealings in relation to the improvement of our national herd.

I am afraid we cannot credit the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries or the Government with any of that foresight in relation to their dealings with the dispute we are discussing tonight. The deadlock reached in the talks yesterday between the Minister and the IVU gives an excellent opportunity, as has been pointed out in the newspapers today, to the British to stop the importation of Irish cattle. It strikes a very serious glow at our £105 million cattle export trade. We can well imagine what effect that decision will have on our balance of payments and on the cattle and meat trade generally in the country.

This dispute has been going on for almost 12 months and has been allowed to continue for too long. Various proposals have been put forward by the farming organisations and other bodies who are interested in having this dispute settled but the parties concerned, the Minister and the IVU, have become deadlocked and are not prepared to compromise on the main issue in the dispute, the employment of lay technicians to take blood samples. This is the one issue which has to be resolved at present.

One can appreciate the position of the IVU in this dispute. They have to protect the jobs of their members. That is what is expected of any trade union movement. At this time the practices of most vets throughout the country are declining. In recent months many of them had to lay off staff. Young vets who qualified last July, whose parents spent a considerable amount of money in having them qualified, have not got jobs. I see nothing at all wrong in a vet being responsible for testing in his own area and being allowed employ two men, one to catch the cattle and perhaps put on the tags and the other to mark up the books. When a vet goes to test a herd and there is an animal sick on the farm he can treat that animal and save himself the trouble of an additional journey and also save the farmer the cost of having to pay him for a further journey to the farm. This would involve lay personnel as well as allowing the vets to deal with the professional side of the business. I am convinced that there would be no saving in the employment of lay personnel. It would do nothing to speed the eradication of bovine TB and brucellosis, which is our main concern and which we are all very anxious to see the end of.

Since this dispute began disease has been rampant and the fruits of our efforts over the years to eliminate brucellosis and bovine TB have been destroyed. It is difficult to estimate the overall costs of the dispute to the Exchequer. It has certainly destroyed our chance of achieving our goal to have a disease-free herd by 1978, the deadline set by the EEC. In a dispute of this kind one does not like to take sides, for many reasons. However, when I see farmers having to pay for their own testing and also when I see a serious threat to our cattle exports and our national herd I am not prepared to sit on the fence any longer.

The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, the person responsible for our national herd and the person who mooted the idea of lay technicians, which is now causing the dispute, must now be held responsible for the serious situation which exists. He has made proposals which are unacceptable to the veterinary union. It is not good enough for the Minister to sit back for almost 12 months and allow a situation to arise where our cattle exports are threatened and animal disease is allowed to become rampant. The Minister's attitude seems to be: "These are my proposals, take them or leave them. If you do not accept them your source of income will be diminished and I will starve you into accepting them." Is it any wonder that for the past few months farmers are thinking that the Government are prepared to let this dispute drift on to save them the cost of eradicating bovine TB and brucellosis?

In view of the present economic situation, the short term advantages of this course may be tempting but the long term loss to the country is too great to meddle with. Unless total eradication of bovine TB and brucellosis is secured within a reasonable number of years our cattle industry could be faced with serious obstacles in relation to trade. Nobody who is interested in the welfare of the country and in the improvement of the cattle herd wants to see that situation arise. At a time of world recession, when most industries are finding it very hard to keep their heads above water, why should we allow a serious dispute like this to destroy our major industry? Agriculture is our major industry and our national herd is our greatest source of income. I would not hazard a guess what this dispute has cost the country since it first began but I am sure it must run into a couple of million pounds. This money could be utilised in many ways. If not required in the agriculture industry it could be used to help keep some other industry ticking over and keep our people employed. The Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary realise this is an agricultural country and any depletion of our national herd is a loss we cannot afford. Some years ago when Fianna Fáil were in office there was a national outcry from the farming organisation when a Minister refused to grant certain concessions to that organisation, but the issues then involved were not nearly as serious from a national viewpoint as those in this dispute and the effects were not as serious on the country's economy. The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries has taken a stand on the question of lay technicians and naturally has his pride and does not wish to give way. I say to him that, unless he has some alternative to offer to the vets, in the interests of our cattle industry I would advise him to come down from his pedestal and settle this dispute which has been allowed to drag on too long. That is necessary at present. Different bodies have tried to intervene. They have been fair in their arguments and have tried to avoid taking sides but in the interests of the national economy a dispute cannot be allowed to continue.

I was very disappointed in listening to the Parliamentary Secretary because I had hoped for some signs of compromise from the Government. If the attitude of the Minister is to be the same as that of the Parliamentary Secretary I fear we are wasting time discussing this motion. We put down the motion in good faith hoping our contribution would help to bring the dispute to an end. There is no dispute, as Deputy Gibbons said, between the vets and the Department in regard to bovine TB but since last May this scheme has been suspended. I wonder why. Surely it is important to eradicate TB. It is as important as brucellosis. Both diseases are a source of danger, not only to animals but to humans.

The official figures issued by the Government Information Services show the serious decline in cattle numbers over the past two years and if this is allowed to continue unchecked I shudder to think what the state of our national herd will be in four or five years time. The figures show that the number of dairy cows has dropped by 44.5 thousand in 1975; other cows by 127 thousand; heifers in calf by 3.5 thousand, and the situation is even worse in regard to younger cattle. In the case of two year olds and upwards there is a reduction of 104.6 thousand; in the case of one year olds to two year olds, 59.5 thousand. This is a serious situation. When I last spoke on an agricultural motion I pointed out this to the Minister or Agriculture and Fisheries. I think he did not believe me then but, unfortunately, it is a fact.

In recent times we have seen the increase in the export of calves to the continent and this coupled with the slaughter of cows strikes at the very base of our herd. Another very important factor in this connection is the limit of £200 for reactors. Any of us attending marts recently realise that this figure is not realistic now. When the scheme again gets under way and when, as I earnestly hope, this dispute is settled, this dispute which is causing so much trouble and worry to the farming community, I trust the Minister will see fit to raise this limit of £200. Cows being sold in marts at present are fetching from £300 to £350 and in some cases more. It is very unfair to expect the farming community to pay for testing. It is all very well for the Parliamentary Secretary to say that farmers had a good year in 1975 and are having a good year in 1976. They may be getting good prices for their livestock but input prices have also increased considerably, fertilisers, seed potatoes, seed oats, barley and so on. If one goes into details one finds the profit margin is not very great.

Debate adjourned.
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