It is proposed to take business in the following order: Nos. 5 and 13 (resumed). By agreement, the debate on No. 5 will be concluded after one hour; Private Members' Business, 7 p.m. to 8.30 p.m., No. 23 (resumed).
Order of Business.
I would like to raise on the Order of Business the matter of the Special Committee on the Wildlife Bill and to direct your attention to what happened at a meeting of this Special Committee yesterday afternoon. When the Committee came to consider section 8 of the Bill, a vote was called. The voting procedure had commenced, a member of the Committee had voted, when the Minister in charge of the Bill, the Minister for Lands, and the Chairman of the Committee proceeded to have some further discussion about the matter, with the result that the time at which the Committee had decided to rise approached and the vote was not proceeded with by the Chairman. I would be anxious for your guidance in regard to this matter. We, the members of that Committee on this side of the House, would wish to know if it is in order for them to raise it with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and get a direction as to the validity of the proceedings of yesterday afternoon.
The Committee were set up by the House and the Ceann Comhairle has no control over the conduct of their proceedings. I have no knowledge of the matter raised by the Deputy other than what appeared in the Press. The Ceann Comhairle does not review the actions of chairmen of committees, and if there is dissatisfaction with the rulings of a chairman of a committee, the appropriate procedure is for the matter to be raised with the chairman and ultimately in the House here by way of motion, if deemed necessary.
, Cavan): I wish to say a word on this; I do not think the Chairman of the Committee is here. As you know, the Wildlife Bill was cleared by the Seanad last year, and the Second Stage of it was taken here on the first day the Dáil resumed after the Christmas recess. The Committee Stage was fixed for early in February, and it was then referred to a special committee. The Special Committee met for the first time on yesterday fortnight and it was arranged then that amendments to the Bill would be tabled by last Thursday, and that the Committee would proceed to deal with the Bill yesterday.
The Committee met yesterday at 4 p.m. under the chairmanship of Deputy John Grattan Esmonde, and proceeded to consider the Bill. It is of significance that no amendments had been tabled by the Opposition with one solitary exception, an amendment in the name of Deputy Michael P. Kitt. We dealt, as Deputy Haughey said, with a number of sections. I thought it was section 6 we had reached; I have not the Bill with me, but if Deputy Haughey says it was section 8 I accept that; it is not material. That is the section that deals with the submission of a report.
Section 7.
(Cavan): The Deputy said 6 and I said 8, so we will split the difference and accept 7. There was no amendment down by the Opposition and there was a fairly lengthy discussion on the section. The Committee had agreed, at the request of the Opposition, not to proceed beyond 6 p.m., and when we reached about 6 p.m.—I cannot be certain to a matter of seconds or even a minute —agreement had not been reached on the section, and the question arose as to a vote. It was the first vote that had been taken by this Committee on the Bill before them, and, indeed, it was the first occasion on which some of us had been present at a meeting. I speak subject to correction. The Chairman had not actually put the issue to the meeting, but it is correct to say that the Clerk of the Committee did call Deputy Brennan's name notwithstanding the fact, I think, that the Chairman had not put the matter formally to the Committee. A point of order was raised by me as to the method of taking a vote at a Special Committee, and the Standing Orders were read. It was then just after 6 o'clock and the Chairman of the Committee adjourned the meeting in accordance with a previous arrangement at the request of the Opposition.
After that lengthy discourse which meant nothing to anybody, I would like to know what Deputy Haughey has to say as to the real cause of the adjournment.
(Cavan): I just want to say for the record that the spokesman on the Opposition who is in charge of the Bill is Deputy Jim Tunney.
I would say to the House that it would be inappropriate to discuss the proceedings of any committee until that committee reports to the House.
I want to make a point. A Cabinet Minister had some latitude in making a long statement as to his version of what happened. The position is that at the Committee when a vote was called it was quite evident that the Opposition were in the majority on the Committee. The Minister and, I regret to say, the Chairman, a Deputy of this House for whom I have considerable respect, connived to prevent a vote being taken. Between them they succeeded in interrupting the taking of a vote on this section of the Bill. Voting had commenced, Deputy Brennan had voted and it became apparent to the Minister that the Opposition were going to defeat the section. Therefore they embarked on a procedure to upset the taking of a vote. I maintain that they by their behaviour brought the whole proceedings of this Special Committee into disrepute. I am asking you to take serious note of this situation. I want to ask you specifically if you would be prepared to have this matter dealt with by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
As I have already said and I reiterate, the Ceann Comhairle does not review the rulings given by other occupants of the Chair either in the Dáil or in Committees. It is essentially a matter for the Committee itself and ultimately for this House which set up the Committee.
Would you be prepared to accept that if the normal procedure of voting at these Special Committees is to be interrupted in this way the establishment of the Special Committees serves no purpose?
We would have to reconsider our approach to these committees in the light of what happened last night.
I would like to explain that this was the most obvious piece of filibustering for a purpose during which one Member of the Government parties went out to try to raise the forces and the Minister himself asked what means there were of summoning back people. He was obviously perturbed and aware. The Chairman dithered—I can use no better word—in calling for the vote. In all other cases when a section was being put he was very quick to get it through. In this case he absolutely dithered unnecessarily and said, "Well, what now?". Finally he said there would have to be a vote, and for the Minister to say there was not a vote called is ridiculous. It was a most obvious piece of contriving to prevent a vote taking place. We could not possibly consider further meetings of this committee until we have some apology or further arrangement from the Chairman.
(Interruptions.)