asked the Minister for Local Government if he will arrange for SDA loans to be made available to those home buyers, such as some 700 people in Donaghmede, County Dublin, who are at present holders of mortgages from building societies which were originally guaranteed by the local authorities.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - SDA Loans.
23.
Mr. R. Burke
The problems of the borrowers to which the question relates were created by the failure of the last Government to provide adequate funds to Dublin Corporation and Dublin County Council for their house purchase loans schemes. In consequence, these authorities were forced to make arrangements whereby they guaranteed building societies against loss if the societies provided loans to applicants eligible for their scheme and approved by them. These loans were advanced at an initial interest rate of 9 per cent, which was the same at the time as the interest rate for local authority loans. While the arrangement was advantageous to the borrowers in that they were immediately able to acquire houses at the relatively low prices then prevailing, it contained the condition applying to all building society loans that the interest rate would be variable. Over 1,000 borrowers availed of the arrangement and, if the Deputy's proposals were put into effect, a capital sum of the order of £3 million would have to be raised and issued at the present rate of interest current for Local Loans Fund issues which, to my knowledge, would not be acceptable to those concerned.
Mr. R. Burke
Would the Minister consider a system where, because of the unique position involved in these 1,000 loans, he would subsidise the interest rate payable at the moment down to the rate prevalent at the time of the mortgages first being released?
No, I would not, and I do not think the people concerned would expect that. I had a long discussion with their representatives last night and they did not indicate they would expect that to be done. As a matter of fact, over 12 months ago they suggested they would be prepared to accept a higher interest rate. The Deputy is probably aware of the fact that I suggested we would have a look at the thing in co-operation with the representatives of these people and see if we could succeed in getting some kind of recommendation, which I cannot guarantee will be put into effect, but we will at least have an opportunity of seeing what the options are and if something can be done.
Mr. R. Burke
The Minister is only too well aware that opportunities to look at this arose over the last four years in which he has been in office. Could he give us any idea at this stage of the solution he is prepared to put forward because it is insufficient from the point of view of the people in the area to say he will look at it again but he cannot promise the outcome will be approved by the Government? Could the Minister give us some definite idea of his own thinking on this particular question?
I am always amused at that approach. Of course, I have been almost four years in office and would have had an opportunity of looking at it. Deputy Burke seems to forget the fact that the position was created by the Government he supported and not by the present Government and they had a number of years since 1969 to do something about it and they did not do it. What I am anxious to do is to try to ensure that, if there is a way of dealing with it, we will fully investigate the proposals put up and see if they are reasonable or if they can be implemented. It would be impossible for me now to tell Deputy Burke something I could not tell the representatives of the organisations last night and I do not think it would be reasonable to ask me to do that. If I could do that, there would be no point whatever in having discussions to see if a solution could be found.
Mr. R. Burke
Would the Minister say what progress has been made since he had his previous discussions with these people approximately two years ago in conjunction with the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and the Minister for Industry and Commerce or is this merely a flim-flam operation in view of the fact that a general election is coming?
A lot more progress has been made than was made under the previous Fianna Fáil regime.
Mr. R. Burke
What progress? No progress.
24.
asked the Minister for Local Government the total allocation to local authorities for (a) SDA loans and (b) SDA grants in 1976; and the actual amount expended in each case in the same period.
Separate allocations for loans and supplementary grants are not made to local authorities. The capital allocation provided for both loans and grants in 1976 was £46 million. Final figures are not yet available as to the actual amount expended, but it will be of the order of £31.5 million.
The fall in expenditure on local authority house purchase loans must, of course, be seen in the context of the total amount of mortgage finance available from all sources. The total figure is likely to be of the order of £140 million for 1976, compared with £116 million in 1975 and £89 million in 1974.
Would the Minister agree that the SDA loans have been the backbone of the private sector of the house building industry and the Government have deliberately wrecked that scheme and those seeking homes for themselves and the building workers are the sufferers?
No. I agree that for a period the SDA loans were doing a great deal of good. As was pointed out in reply to the previous question and supplementaries, the previous Government did not live up to what they said they would do as far back as 1969 with the result that people were forced on to the building societies. We now find the building societies have been providing enough money to deal with this particular problem in conjunction with some SDA loans and Deputy Faulkner would be the first to admit that there is no onus on any Government to provide money to build houses which is needed for other important things. Deputy Faulkner should remember that. The most recent scheme introduced by the Government will, in fact, help a great many people who were ignored up to now.
The Minister is very well aware that when Fianna Fáil were in office the level of the loan and the qualifying income limit entitled very large numbers to benefit from SDA loans, people who cannot benefit now. Is the Minister aware that by refusing to increase the loan level above £4,500 and continuing qualifying the income limit at £45 a week numerous young people willing and anxious to build their own houses are now forced on to the local authority housing list and is he also aware that very large numbers of these young people are unable to get loans from the building societies because of the conditions laid down?
Deputy Faulkner should be aware of the fact that the people he is talking about will be able to avail of the new scheme which has been introduced by the Government.
They will get £7,500 from the local authority. He also should remember that we have just spent five minutes discussing the case of over 1,000 people in 1969 who were qualified for SDA loans but could not get them because the money was not made available by the then Government to corporations and county councils. I do not know why he should start talking about something now which he himself or his Government were responsible for in a big way when they were in office.
Is the Minister aware that the scheme he refers to has not yet got off the ground, that single people and young married couples will not be eligible and that a family must be a full year on the housing list to qualify, and might I point out to him——
This is Question Time.
Is the Minister aware that numerous young people for these reasons have been thrown on to the local authority list, that the number of local authority houses built over the first 11 months of last year was over 1,500 fewer than were built in the previous year, and how does he expect these young people to be housed?
I do not mind carrying on debate or discussion with someone consistent——
This is Question Time. There is no room for debate now.
I cannot understand how Deputy Faulkner can talk about people being thrown on the local authority list and then tell me that people who would have qualified for the scheme are either single or young married people with no family. Would he try to collect his thoughts before he starts asking supplementary questions, because that is a very confusing supplementary question?
Question No. 25 please.
I want to ask one simple question.
Sorry, I have called the next question.
I have not asked any question.
On a point of order, on Question No. 21 there were about ten supplementaries asked by Deputy Luke Belton. There have been only three supplementaries asked on Question No. 24.
The Deputy has raised a series of questions. I have given him a lot of latitude. Question No. 25.
This is a very important question and I feel that——
Deputy Faulkner, the Chair will be obeyed.
I feel the Ceann Comhairle should not be attempting to protect the Minister.
That is an unfair allegation.
I require no protection from the Ceann Comhairle or anybody else from what is over there.
The Deputy will withdraw that reflection upon the Chair. If he does not withdraw the reflection he will withdraw from the House.
I asked one civil question.
Order.
I am sure the Minister will answer me.
If the Deputy does not withdraw the reflection on the Chair——
If the Ceann Comhairle now states that what I said was a reflection——
It was a serious reflection and I deeply resent it.
I certainly do not wish to cast a reflection on the Chair. If he regards it as a reflection I will withdraw it. I did not intend it as a reflection.