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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 15 Nov 1977

Vol. 301 No. 6

Private Members' Business: Residential Ground Rents: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann calls upon the Government to honour without delay its commitment to abolish existing residential ground rents.

The subject of ground rents is an emotive one in this country over the centuries. We have had a long history of landlord and tenant agitation. In the last century this was mainly concerned with the rights of tenant farmers. Most of us, particularly those like myself coming from a rural area, were reared on stories of the Land League, the three Fs, the Boycott campaign, the Ashbourne and Wyndham Land Acts and the early Land Acts. All this is in the past, but one cannot forget the problems and difficulties connected with the payment of land annuities—something roughly equivalent to ground rents—particularly during the Economic War years of the thirties. The agitation today is related mainly to ground rents on residential properties, the system whereby householders have to pay an annual sum to their landlords, the system whereby the householder does not own the freehold of his own house.

Earlier this year the National Coalition introduced the Landlord and Tenant Bill, 1977, which provided for a prohibition on the creation of future ground rents. The Fianna Fáil manifesto included a commitment to provide a scheme which will lead to the abolition of existing residential ground rents. The then Opposition spokesman, now Minister, Deputy Collins, wrote to ACRA, the central body for residents' associations, on 24th May last, promising to introduce the necessary legislation within six months of the formation of the Government. So far no such legislation has been introduced. Neither before nor since the election has any indication been given by Fianna Fáil as to how they intend to honour this commitment. Furthermore, in reply to a question of mine on 27th October last, the Minister did not even know the annual ground rent income in the country. One is driven to the conclusion that Fianna Fáil had and have no idea how ground rents could be abolished.

One thing is certain, whatever interpretation the Government now try to put on their commitments, whatever effort they may now make to draw back from, to split hairs, confuse or otherwise welch on that commitment, the residential ground rent tenants of this country expect that they will not have to pay more ground rent and that the Government will foot the bill to enable that aim to be achieved. I see it as my job as Opposition spokesman to ensure that these thousands of householders will not be disappointed in that regard. For that reason, I propose this motion on behalf of the Fine Gael Party.

The amendment proposed by the Minister seems to be a clear attempt to buy time so that he can think up something to get himself off the hook. Let the Minister and the other members of the Government be quite clear about this: he and his colleagues will be reminded of their manifesto obligations to the public at every opportunity and the Minister for Justice will not be let off the hook. Too much passion and emotion have been aroused by this issue to permit the hopes and aspirations of so many to be dashed in disillusionment. We already have an indication that Fianna Fáil have neither the will nor the ability to deliver on their election promises. Already their credibility in this regard is suspect, as has been shown by the few taken in by the promise of the £1,000 grant on houses. If the Government press their amendment it will be a further indication that election promises are for the purpose of securing votes and not for implementation. The electorate expect and deserve better. I urge the Minister to withdraw this amendment and to accept our motion, which merely asks the Government to honour their election commitments. If they fail to do so they are exposed as shams of the first order.

To return to the terms of this motion, it is necessary to trace the development of landlord and tenant legislation over the years. Only in that way can the Fianna Fáil commitment on ground rent be seen in proper perspective and in its true context. One of the early developments of modern landlord and tenant law was the practice whereby the freeholder of land in or near a town leased it at a low rent for a number of years and the lessee undertook to erect a specified number of houses on the land. The lessee made his profit by selling his interest in the houses or by subletting them to occupying tenants. Up to the present century there was no standard practice as to the length of such a lease. In some cases leases for lives were given; in others the lengths of the term varied from 70 to 150 years. In isolated cases leases for 999 years were given. In a number of Irish towns prior to 1900 houses were erected on lettings for 20 years or even on yearly tenancies. The lengths of the term is normally 99 years. In 1906, after a long agitation, tenants of town houses got some relief. We had the Town Tenants Act of 1906, which gave tenants of houses on tenancies of not less than a year compensation for improvements and for unreasonable disturbance.

The final report of the Meredith Commission in 1928 marked the next step. This report introduced a fair rent definition which bears a great resemblance to the gross rent definition in the Landlord and Tenant Act of 1931. This Act was an extremely important piece of legislation because it effectively set the pattern for the statutory regulation of relations between the urban landlords and tenants. It was called a tenants charter in that it introduced for the first time protection for urban tenants against dispossession on the expiry of their tenancies. It gave them the right to renewal of tenancies. Prior to this an urban tenant whose lease expired had no legal right to remain on in the property and the landlord was entitled to recover possession. This was so even when the tenant had put up the building. The 1931 Act was also of considerable importance in the sense that it introduced the statutory concepts of building lease and proprietary lease as opposed to occupational tenancies.

In general, a building lease was one under which the landlord leased the tenant a plot of land with a covenant in the lease that the tenant would build a house on that land. The proprietary lease was a sublease under a building lease. The essential thing with both kind of leases is that it is the tenant who owns the bricks and mortar. The landlord therefore has only a minor interest in the whole property which is normally represented by the fact that the rent was low. The rent in the case of this type of lease has come to be known as a ground rent. This is as opposed to an occupational tenancy where, in effect, the landlord owns the bricks and mortar and the tenant's interest is related primarily to his occupation of the premises, and normally his rent would be much higher than under a building or proprietary lease. The 1931 Act, Part V, provided a procedure for getting a reversionary lease in the case of property held subject to ground rent. The rent payable on the granting of a reversionary lease was to be a quarter of the gross rent. The theory of the 1931 Act was that a lessee who had improved a bare site by erecting buildings on it or who had acquired the builder's interest should get a reversionary lease unless the landlord proved that it should not be given for certain specified reasons, mainly involving redevelopment and good estate management. The main point was that the rent payable should only be in respect of the site value and should contain no element attributable to the buildings erected on the land.

With the passage of time there were certain flaws in the 1931 Act. An attempt was made to remedy these in the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act, 1943. The next step resulted from the Rents and Leaseholds Commission, which reported in 1954 with certain recommendations which were embodied in the Landlord and Tenant (Reversionary Leases) Act of 1958. This Act extended considerably the right to a reversionary lease on the part of ground rent lessees. The portion of the gross rent attributable to the ground was reduced to one-sixth and under the terms of the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Act, 1967, this proportion was further reduced to one-eighth. The 1967 Act introduced for the first time a measure of leasehold enfranchisement, that is the right to certain leaseholders and tenants to acquire the freehold of their properties. The 1971 Act extended to new classes of tenants the rights given in the 1958 Act to get a reversionary lease and in the 1967 Act to purchase a freehold.

It is important to remember in the context of this motion that the right to purchase freehold has been in existence for more than ten years. The cost of purchase was at a sum to be fixed by the county registrar, bearing in mind certain specific provisions of the Act. In certain cases, which would apply to the majority of modern residential ground rents, the price should not exceed the amount which is invested at the date of purchase in the most recent Government long-term loan which would give a gross annual return equal to the amount of the ground rent.

The most recent long-term Government loan was 13 per cent Finance Stock, 1997 to 2002, which gives a multiplier of 7.692 per cent. I should point out that because of the improvement in sterling and other international economic factors, interest rates have fallen very much in recent times. The most recent UK long-term loan was issued last Friday, the 10 per cent Treasury Stock, 1992. Normally one would expect that any new Government loan here would be issued at approximately the same terms, and this would increase the multiplier to 10 per cent. Therefore, one must bear that in mind when considering the overall cost of ground rent abolition.

The evidence is that the right to purchase the freehold which was introduced in the 1967 Act has not been availed of to any great extent. One of the major problems involved was the necessity to track down the title, not alone in reference to the interest of the most recent landlord but all the superior interests back to the freehold owner. Considerable trouble and expense could have been experienced where a pyramid of interests occurred, and it was my experience as a practising lawyer that this was the most usual situation, rather than having a ground rent lessee holding direct from a freehold owner. Further complications arose when owners of superior interests were infants or persons of unsound mind or other complications of a similar nature, and in general the considerable legal expense that would be involved in tracking down the various title interests was a discouragement to prospective purchasers of freehold interests.

Then, in 1977, the Minister, now Senator Cooney, introduced a Bill in February. The Bill sought to resolve this problem in a very simple way. Under the procedure proposed, a lessee merely had to apply to the county registrar who would carry out the full transaction. After satisfying himself that the lessee was entitled to purchase, the county registrar would determine the purchase money, and on receipt of it he would give the freehold to the tenant by way of statutory vesting certificate. The purchase money would be lodged in court, and it would then be up to the various landlord interests to prove their various titles and to make their claims against the moneys lodged in court.

That procedure would have represented a far-reaching innovation and would have gone a long way towards resolving difficulties which were preventing ground rent tenants from purchasing. In effect, the tenant would not have had to bother chasing the various landlord interests or investigating the title of such interests, many of which incidentally might have been defective. The whole onus would have been transferred from the lessee to the landlords. That Bill proposed certain other additions which would have favoured tenants, including the right to purchase the freehold. That was to be extended to new classes of lessees and yearly tenants. The Bill would have given the right of perpetual renewal of long leases, with the alternative right of outright purchase of the freehold, to ground rent tenants of every known kind. It would have extended a simple and inexpensive form of arbitration by the county registrars. As already mentioned, it provided for prohibition of the creation of future ground rents on dwelling houses. That was provided for in section 108 of that Bill.

That Bill of course contained many other provisions which I will not go into at this stage. They were provisions designed to improve the lot of tenants of other types. Unfortunately, the Bill died with the Dáil dissolution. As time goes on I will be pressing the Minister to implement many of the other provisions of that Bill, which had a great welcome from tenants of all types all over the country. I regret that the general reform of landlord and tenant law is in abeyance and I will confine my remarks tonight to the subject of ground rents only. I will be returning to the other matters at a later stage as opportunities arise.

The problems in relation to the creation of future ground rents and of an easier and more inexpensive method of purchase were dealt with in the 1977 Bill, and it is very important that both factors should be borne in mind when one tries to interpret Fianna Fáil's commitment in this respect. It is in that context that Fianna Fáil's commitment to provide a scheme leading to the abolition of existing ground rents must be construed. That commitment was given in the Fianna Fáil manifesto and in a letter to ACRA on 24th May last. In that letter, the Minister for Justice, Deputy Collins, confirmed that commitment. He committed his party to introduce the necessary legislation within six months of the formation of a Government. In reply to a question in the Dáil on 27th October last, the Minister indicated that a short Landlord and Tenant Bill would be introduced at an early stage providing for the prohibition of the creation of future ground rents on ordinary dwelling houses. Such a Bill would, of course, be merely doing what was provided for in section 108 of the earlier Bill.

In passing, I urge the Minister to bring this to a conclusion with all possible haste. Incidentally, he has not given any explanation as to why future prohibition and abolition of existing ground rents are not to be dealt with in a single Bill. There does not seem to be any reason why this should not be done, but perhaps the answer is obvious.

To get back to the question of the abolition of existing ground rents, the Minister has not given any indication as to how it would be done. It seems to me that it is possible to implement that commitment only by way of confiscation or compensation. Dealing first with the question of confiscation, Article 43 of the Constitution provides for the protection of private property rights. It would therefore appear to be unconstitutional to terminate landlords' interests without compensation, and any Bill providing otherwise would probably be declared by the courts to be unconstitutional. The Constitution could be changed by a referendum; but the Taoiseach, on the opening day of this Session, indicated that the only constitutional changes proposed were in relation to bail and adoption. Accordingly, I can only assume that such a course of action is not intended.

However, it is no harm to mention that, if such a course of action were suggested, the ground rent lessees, the tenants themselves, who would appear to initially benefit from such a move would, because of the diminution in the rights of private property involved in such a change, find that the very thing they were seeking would thereby be lost. In effect, their legitimate aspirations to the ownership of their houses and property would not be constitutionally guaranteed.

Having disposed of the question of confiscation, we turn our minds to what was promised by the present administration in their manifesto. We already had a system whereby the ground rent lessees could purchase by paying a certain sum to the landlords. While not pretending that the 1977 Bill would abolish existing residential ground rents, the Coalition Government provided for a cheaper and more effective way of purchase by the tenants.

The Fianna Fáil commitment is to abolish existing ground rents. In other words, according to the dictionary definition, to do away with them. The only reasonable interpretation that can be drawn from this commitment is that the Government will provide appropriate compensation. I suggest that this commitment cannot be construed in any other way.

How seriously the costs of the operation have been investigated by Deputy Collins and his colleagues is evidenced by the fact that, on 27th October, in reply to a question of mine, the Minister was not even aware of the total annual ground rent income. At that date, having stated that he did not have this information, the Minister said that he would send it to me in due course if he could get it within his Department. This information has not yet come to hand so presumably it is not yet available to the Minister. Can he or his Government be taken seriously in relation to this commitment?

Since the Minister was not able to tot up the bill, I thought I should provide some help in this regard. I have attempted to obtain estimates of the amounts involved. Because I have not access to official sources, the figures that I quote must of necessity be very rough estimates. Despite that fact, it is proper and right that these figures should be put on the table at this stage. If the Minister is in a position to put forward more official figures, I am quite prepared to listen to him. The best estimate I have been able to obtain is that the annual ground rent income for residential properties is of the order of £12½ million to £15 million. To get an idea of the capital purchase cost involved I have worked out rough maximum and minimum figures. Taking the lower income figure of £12½ million per annum and using the present multiplier of 7.692 per cent we end up with a figure of nearly £100 million. If we take the upper income figure of £15 million per annum and the 10 per cent likely multiplier resulting from the issue of any new Government loan, we end up with a capital sum of £150 million. In addition to these figures, consideration must also be given to the substantial administrative costs involved in any Government-organised abolition scheme.

I do stress that my figures are approximate. However, they are something to be working on pending official figures from the Minister. One way or the other, the capital cost is enormous. It seems that, in order to procure the votes of ground rent tenants, Fianna Fáil committed the Exchequer to the payment of a sum of that order. In passing, it is fair to mention that on that basis these must have been the most expensive votes in the history of democratic politics. Whether the compensation is provided by way of cash or bonds would seem to be immaterial. Bonds are worthless unless they can be redeemed for cash.

I should make the position of my party very clear. The Government committed themselves to the abolition of existing residential ground rents and it is our job to ensure that the Government do not welch on their promise and that they fully implement it. We will fight on behalf of the tenants to ensure that there is no backsliding in this regard. At no stage did Fianna Fáil spell out how they were to effect the abolition of existing ground rents. I have gone to some lengths to sketch the background in an effort to put the matter into proper perspective. It seems that the Fianna Fáil commitment is to provide the necessary compensation to enable this to be effectively done. Otherwise there will not be an end to the existing ground rents system. I have given an estimate of the cost solely because this aspect seems to have been totally neglected by Fianna Fáil either before the election, when the commitment was given, or since assuming power. Having made an estimate of the cost, I now present the bill to the Minister for Justice for payment by calling on the Government to implement without delay their commitment to abolish existing residential ground rents.

The Minister has put down an amendment asking this House to express its confidence in the Minister for Justice to introduce at an early date a scheme leading to the abolition of existing residential ground rents. The Minister's amendment must be seen for what it is. I can only interpret it as a delaying tactic, a cover for a nonexistent plan, something that is unworthy of a responsible Government. In the light of the facts outlined the Minister has failed miserably to inspire confidence in his ability to deal with this matter. Does it inspire confidence to give a commitment to abolish ground rents when it is obvious that the Minister has not a clue of the cost involved? Does it inspire confidence when the Minister refuses to accept a motion in what could be termed the dying days of 1977 to have his commitment to ACRA of 24th May to introduce legislation within six months honoured without delay?

I wonder why the Minister cannot accept this motion and why he feels it necessary to put down an amendment. I suppose the weight of the seven dozen apostles trooping through the lobby may give the Minister an impression of confidence, but I would say to him that he can be assured that this confidence will not be shared by many thousands of disillusioned householders.

In the circumstances I urge the Minister to play this one the honest way. A commitment was given in the manifesto and it is unequivocal. The manifesto states that Fianna Fáil will provide a scheme which will lead to the abolition of existing residential ground rents. A further commitment was given that legislation in this regard would be introduced within six months of the formation of the Government. In those circumstances it is difficult to understand why the Minister put down an amendment. This session will end in a few weeks' time and the House will not meet again until the middle of January and by that time the six months will have elapsed. Therefore, the Bill should be introduced in the next few weeks if it is the intention of the Minister to honour his commitment. If the Minister is serious about his commitment and intends to implement his promise why does he not accept our motion? In fact it is a motion that should have been put down by the Govenrment if they intended honouring their commitment.

Suspicions rise in my mind that the Government do not intend honouring their commitment. If that is so I presume the Minister will come clean and enlighten the House and the many thousands of ground rent tenants about the situation. If it is the intention of the Minister to honour his commitment he must be in a position to outline his proposals. I accept that the drafting of a Bill is a slow process but the proposals must have been worked out before the election. The Minister should tell the House the headings of his proposals. If the Minister does not accept our motion I suggest it is because the Government do not intend honouring their promise, that they are backsliding on their commitment. How can the Minister expect us to express any confidence in him or his intentions bearing in mind that background? Expressions of spurious confidence are not and will not be acceptable to ground rent tenants. For that reason I ask the Minister to withdraw his amendment and honour his commitment now. He should abolish ground rents and retain some credibility. If the Minister fails to do so and rejects our motion it can only be interpreted as showing Fianna Fáil in their true colours, a party of all promises and no action, a party without credibility sowing another seed of defeat which I suggest will grow and flourish over the next few years and come into full flower at the next general election.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"expresses its confidence in the Minister for Justice to introduce at an early date a scheme leading to the abolition of existing residential ground rents."

The Government gave a commitment with regard to ground rents, a commitment which is contained in the election manifesto which has already been read into the record by Deputy O'Keeffe. I should like to say also that I gave a commitment, on behalf of my party, last May to the effect that I was setting a time limit on my party, if elected to Government, within which that commitment would be acted upon. I should like to read a letter. signed by me, dated 24th May, 1977, which I sent to the secretary of the sub-committee on ground rents of ACRA. The letter reads:

With reference to recent discussions with ACRA Sub Committee on Ground Rents I wish to state that having been returned to office Fianna Fáil will provide a scheme which will lead to the abolition of existing residential Ground Rents.

I am prepared to commit my Party to introduce the necessary legislation within six months of formation of Government.

That was a serious commitment given by me as a spokesman for Fianna Fáil. It is serious when coupled with the statement of policy contained in our election manifesto. Despite what Deputy O'Keeffe might think, despite what he might want to read into the situation as he sees it now, I am sorry that I will upset him by saying that I have every confidence in myself as Minister for Justice and in the Government of which I am a member to keep that solemn promise, given first by my party in their election manifesto and secondly the promise given by me with regard to the time limit, contained in my letter of 24th May.

The Deputy need not lose any sleep with regard to whether or not my Government, my party or myself will lose any credibility. I understand his concern and I am prepared to leave it at that. I reject out of hand the many political charges made by Deputy O'Keeffe and I want to say to him, in the nicest way possible, that he should look up the record of debates here on this vexed question of ground rents. If he does so he will see that his own party which helped form the last Government did not have a record of which they could be proud with regard to those they purport to carry the flag for tonight. If we are to be accused of using this vexed issue of ground rents as an election ploy I want to refer the Deputy to a statement issued by the Government Information Services, on behalf of the former Government, on 6th June, 1974. That statement is on the record if the Deputy wishes to see it and I do not think I should waste time, effort and energy reading it in full but the Deputy should pay attention to it. In that statement the then Government said they intended introducing legislation "as soon as possible". There was no time limit there. They said that they were going to introduce legislation as soon as possible which would contain a provision to prohibit the creation of future ground rents.

At that time I suggested to the then Minister, Senator Cooney, that if he were prepared to introduce legislation —a simple Bill, as I described it, to prevent the creation of future ground rents—I, on behalf of my party, would welcome that Bill and, as far as I could under the circumstances that prevailed, I gave him an assurance that the Bill would be given a speedy passage through the House. That was three and a half years ago. The Minister did not take the advice and did not do anything about it. I am on record in this House as saying that such a Bill would be given a fairly speedy passage. A simple Bill could have prevented the creation of a problem for many people. We were told that the Coalition built so many houses per year. If that figure is as accurate as the Coalition would want us to believe—and I doubt that it is— one would not need a calculator to show the number of houses which could have been without ground rents.

I find it a little hypocritical and certainly ironic that I am being castigated —admittedly in a very nice way—by the spokesman for the Opposition for bringing in a Bill to prevent the creation of future ground rents. I would hope that the Bill would be circulated tomorrow or the following day and debated next week.

Regarding this motion, the Deputy knows quite well that a Bill must be introduced in the Oireachtas. This House has been sitting for about four weeks but there are several weeks left and I should like to assure the House that I have every intention of introducing the legislation. It is standard practice in this House that the contents of a Bill are not debated or discussed until such time as the Bill is circulated. When this Bill is circulated, as it will be, then we will have a debate on it but not until such time.

It is very easy for Deputy O'Keeffe to put down this motion and I accept that he must do so because business is fairly short, as it were, for Private Members' Motions. I can only say that in the past when I was sitting on the Opposition side and introduced Private Members' Motions calling on the Government to do something positive and worth while, I was chided by Members of the Deputy's party for misusing the time of the House; I was told I was abusing privilege and wasting time. If that were true then, and I do not accept it, then the party of which Deputy O'Keeffe is a Member could be very easily open to that charge and it would stick much quicker now than it was meant to stick against me.

It is very easy to say, as Deputy O'Keeffe has said, that this subject did not arise until before the election. That is not true and the record proves it. We had a number of debates in this House regarding the problem of ground rents and I suggest that the Deputy and members of his party have ample opportunity to study these debates. Before Deputy O'Keeffe accuses me or anybody else in my party of making promises for the general election, let me remind him that the statement issued on 6th June, 1974 by the Coalition Government was issued just before the local elections and was a very hot potato in the Dublin Corporation elections. Let the man who accuses me strike his own breast if he is innocent. I forgive Deputy O'Keeffe, as I should do. He is a new Member of the House and those who are politically longer in the tooth should have advised him. I have a certain sympathy for him but one must be very careful in throwing stones when living in a glasshouse; it is a dangerous thing and one could get splinters of glass in one's hands and other parts of the body. I am doing something definite and positive about the ground rents question.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Like what?

I will repeat something I have said already and I will not interrupt Deputy Fitzpatrick when he is making his contribution. I said that next Tuesday or Wednesday, if the Whips agree, I will do something positive and definite regarding the ground rents question. I would hope with the permission and approval of the House to have enacted within a very short time a Bill to prevent the creation of future ground rents. This is something I looked for from the Coalition Government and which they refused to give. I would further say for the benefit of Deputy Fitzpatrick that the commitment given by my party in their election manifesto and the time commitment I have given on behalf of my party will be honoured.

If other motions were available for discussion rather than this one and if I had failed to keep within the time limit, which was voluntary on my part, then Deputy O'Keeffe could have put down a motion and had a go at me. This Dáil has been meeting for about four weeks and I am being taken to task. I know that he has his tongue in his cheek to a certain degree but I should like to assure the Deputy that I have every intention of dealing with this matter in the way that I and my party said it would be dealt with prior to becoming the Government of the day.

With regard to the breaking of promises, I have here copies of letters to different members of the previous Government by the then Minister for Justice to the effect that the legislation will be introduced "this session" or "before the end of the session" and "very early next session". I will not waste the time of the House by reading these letters because they are already on record. I am in a different position. There is the double problem, as I saw it then and as I see it now, of the existing and new ground rents. The Bill dealing with the prohibition of the creation of new ground rents will be circulated within a matter of hours. We will debate that for what is in it, and, when I am ready to come before this House with legislation dealing with the assurance given by my party in their election manifesto, which will be honoured, Deputy O'Keeffe and members of his party need have no fears about that. If I do not do it, I am putting it on the line; I will be back. He can put down the motion and then he has fair game to start criticising the Government if they do not do what they said they would do. Might I say this, for the record, to those who are now showing great concern on behalf of the people who have the ground rents problem, it is a great pity that the same concern was not shown when they were on this side of the House.

Some of us were not there; we did not have that honour.

May I say to the new Deputy that he now shares the party benches with many of those of his party who were in government then; that the new Deputy is not an Independent; he is here as a member of the Labour Party that sat in government. Not alone did the Government of the time not show concern for those who had the problem of ground rents, but the Minister of the day refused even to meet the association representing those who were trying to highlight the ground rents problem. That is on public record in this House. Might I say to Deputy O'Keeffe and to the new Deputy here in the Labour Party that those of their party members who were in government at the time refused to influence the then Minister for Justice to meet those people and discuss their problems with them. I met them; I met them on a number of occasions; I discussed their problems in detail with them. I did not always agree with their point of view—I told them that—and in no way could they agree with my point of view at all times. We respected each other's point of view. We had much discussion about a matter near and dear to many people whom they represent.

While I was doing that, urging the Government to do something there and then, as quickly as possible to prevent the creation of future ground rents, there was not a bleep from the many Fine Gael and Labour men who sat here behind the then Minister. I was chided by Members of the Government parties for taking the stand that I did. I see a colleague of mine walking around the side of the House—that same Deputy who took part in the debate at the time—Deputy Raphael Burke, who was chided by members of the Fine Gael Party and accused of wasting time because we took up the case of the ground rents people at the time and urged that something be done about it.

I think he was talking then about flat-dwellers.

The Minister is in possession.

It is all on the record. Might I say to Deputy O'Keeffe that he should have another look at the record. I could name the Deputy, without even trying, who told me I was wasting the time of the House. He is a Dublin city Deputy—I think his constituency was the old South East; I am not sure what is its new name—Deputy Fergus O'Brien of the Fine Gael Party.

Deputy O'Keeffe feels very upset because I put down an amendment to his Private Members' Motion. My amendment is a very clear one. In it I am asking the House to express its confidence in the Minister for Justice to introduce, at an early date, a scheme leading to the abolition of existing residential ground rents. There is nothing contentious in that. In all fairness to Deputy O'Keeffe and anybody else in this House I see no reason why he should throw off his clothes at that amendment because let me say that whether or not Deputy O'Keeffe's motion was on the Order Paper— calling on the Government to honour without delay and so on—I, as the responsible Minister in this area, had every intention of doing what I said I would on behalf of the Government within the time limit I set for the Government last May. There is no need in the world for Deputy O'Keeffe to take umbrage at this. Perhaps it is something to which he might not be accustomed. An amendment of this nature is and has been in the past quite acceptable. There is nothing whatsoever in it about which the Deputy should feel aggrieved.

It is very easy to make accusations or to point the finger. Let me say to the Deputy that his accusation and finger-pointing with regard to statements made for the purpose of getting votes were unjustified. I put a time limit on it and I will work within that time limit. If that accusation is to be made, then the Deputy should make it against his own party arising out of the statement issued by the Government Information Service of the 6th June, 1974, dealing with that question of ground rents. May I again remind the Deputy that that was the period of time immediately prior to the local elections—June, 1974; June, 1977; three years, a long period of time, many sitting days of this House, many days on which the Deputy's party did nothing, not even introduce the simple Bill that would have prevented new houses coming within the scope of ground rents at the time. If there were 25,000 or 20,000 houses——

There are 122 sections.

The Deputy is wrong again; forgive me for saying so. I will give him the true picture as it is. Before that Bill was introduced at all, long before, during the course of a Private Members' debate in this House, I asked the then Minister for Justice to introduce a simple Bill dealing with the prohibition of the creation of future ground rents. Therefore it was not a part of that Bill at all.

Let me say as well, again for the record—and it is as well that Deputy O'Keeffe should know this—I am surprised he was not told by some of his own, particularly by those who were in Government, that there was ample time to discuss the Committee Stage of the Landlord and Tenant Bill which was dropped.

It has not been reintroduced.

Let me go back to the Deputy's statement of half an hour or so ago when he tried, perhaps believing it to be so, to give the impression that the Bill fell with the last Dáil. That is not true. The Bill had fallen for many months before the Dáil broke up in the month of May for the general election. The Bill had collapsed because the political will to do something with it had evaporated.

That is why the Mini- Minister's party were elected.

Do not worry about that. It was said at the time, by prominent members of the Fine Gael Party, that the Committee Stage of the Bill would never be taken. Therefore, from 1974 to May, 1977, nothing was done other than having the Second Stage Reading of the Landlord and Tenant Bill. If accusations are to be made against anyone, let them be made against the people who deserve them most.

The Bill, which is being circulated this evening, or tomorrow—I do not know that are the mechanics of the circulation of Bills—to do with the prohibition of the creation of future ground rents——

That is a lot of old hat.

If it is a lot of old hat, let me tell the Deputy——

This was the Minister's ACRA promise he had to live up to.

Let me tell Deputy Desmond it is a pity he did not come in to listen to the debate, when he would have known the way things were going. Had he come in and listened to the debate he would have known how things were going.

Are the Government abolishing existing ground rents? Are they doing what they promised?

It is nice to know that at long last Deputy Desmond is worrying about the ground rents problem. From March, 1973, to May, 1977, he did not offer one word in this House on the many occasions that offered.

That is incorrect.

It is the truth and the Deputy knows it.

The Minister is in possession and he should be allowed to speak without interruption.

I should like Deputy Desmond to tell the House what he and his party did with regard to this matter when they were in a position to do something about it.

We never promised to abolish existing ground rents.

Will the Deputy tell us why he, as Deputy Whip to the then Government, did not order business with the Chief Whip, Deputy Kelly, to ensure that the Committee Stage of the Landlord and Tenant Bill was taken? Referring back to 1973 and 1974 when we were looking for an opportunity to do what we now propose——

The Government are not abolishing existing ground rents. The Minister is just reproducing Deputy Paddy Cooney's Bill.

The Minister has only two minutes to conclude his contribution. If Deputy Desmond wishes to speak afterwards he may do so.

When I introduce a Bill and when it is debated here I welcome comment and criticism from the Deputy. If he thinks I am reproducing Deputy Cooney's Bill, as he put it, let me remind him it was not I who killed that Bill. I did not put it on ice at the time. It was Deputy Desmond and the Labour Party with his colleagues in Fine Gael. They had ample opportunity in six or nine months to introduce the Committee Stage either in this House or in Select Committee of the House where it could have been dealt with more speedily. However, they did nothing about it, they deliberately wanted to keep it out. I am going to do something about the problem. I am going to honour the commitment given by my Government and by me.

There is a firm commitment on page 21 of the Fianna Fáil Manifesto to abolish existing ground rents.

I have repeatedly told the Deputy that the Minister should be allowed to speak without interruption.

The Minister will have a lot of explaining to do to ACRA.

I had a certain sympathy for Deputy O'Keeffe but Deputy Desmond does not deserve that measure of sympathy. He is a Member of this House for long enough to know the situation. His record when his party were in government will not endear him to anyone who has a genuine ground rents problem.

I am pleased to support this very simple motion which asks a very competent Minister to honour a commitment given by his Government. The commitment is there in black and white for all to see. It is not in dispute by any party in the House.

The only matter that can be in dispute is when the commitment will be honoured and if I understood the Minister correctly that is what he said. I regret I was not able to be present for all of his speech but I heard enough to say that he deserves the major reputation he had in UCD as a person of consummate political skill. That has been displayed in this House tonight.

This motion calls on the Government to honour their commitment. They have an unprecedented majority, they are a single party Government and they have attributed their success in regaining office to the intellectual capacity of their "think-tank" to implement their promises. I suppose we must be thankful for small mercies, that we extracted a written promise from Fianna Fáil on this occasion. I am sure there are some people on the other side who regret that it was put down in black and white.

There is no use in the Minister saying that if we are good and patient and if the Whips agree he will do something about the matter. There is no use in saying that he will bring in a Bill next week that will abolish the creation of new ground rents. We realise that is not a problem in legislative but rather perhaps in economic, terms. I do not claim to have any specialist skill in this matter. In their Manifesto Fianna Fáil state that they will provide a scheme that will lead to the abolition of existing residential ground rents.

Our Constitution has the joint authorship of a man whose role in Irish history is illustrious—there is a building named after him among other things—and a man who was a former Archbishop of the diocese of Dublin. Under that Constitution the status of property is so sacrosanct that it cannot be abolished without some form of recompense. Therefore, the real problem in the implementation of this promise by Fianna Fáil is the cost involved. With the prospect of the 5 per cent statutory or voluntarily obtained wage agreement rapidly evaporating—it was never on in the first place: the Government never attempted to ascertain if it was on—they will have difficulty in raising the necessary finance to fund their already over-optimistic job creation targets let alone to sink money into something that will not create one single new job.

Despite his legendary political skill which has followed him from UCD to this House, I do not envy the Minister for Justice. The creation of the machine that was capable of organising a very successful social service that would make the Minister for Health and Social Welfare blush at the extent of its comprehensiveness——

I would ask the Deputy to speak on the motion.

I do not envy the Minister his job when he will have to argue around the Cabinet table with the Minister for Economic Planning and Development and the Minister for Education who was pathetic at Question Time today in his efforts to answer questions about the payment of teachers. I should not like to be the Minister for Justice when they ask him the simple question of how many jobs it will create.

Let us parade now the dishonesty of that promise. Nowhere in the costings in this manifesto—or in the revised costings of the Taoiseach or of the Minister for Economic Planning and Development who are now saying that unless we get the 5 per cent everything else falls—have I seen provision for the financial implementation of this promise.

If the Opposition have a role it is to ensure that the Government of the day provide good government. If a party have been given an unprecedented mandate by the population, perhaps in desperation, in a sense of renewed confidence in the "soldiers of destiny" or out of some form of indifference or a "let us go for a change" attitude, we have one very simple task and that is to hang their promises around their necks every week, every month and every year.

The problem is not the prohibition of the creation of new ground rents. That is not a legislative problem. It is the Minister's problem to make reality out of that promise. Do not confuse us with the difficulties of prominent Fine Gael backbenchers, or the reason why my colleague, Deputy B. Desmond, allegedly did not get the Committee Stage on to the floor of the House. Let us concentrate on the issue of the day which is the motion in the name of the Fine Gael Party attempting to hang around their necks the promise in black and white from Fianna Fáil.

The real problem here is the cost. That is a problem because of our Constitution to which on previous occasions the Fianna Fáil Party, through the former Minister for Local Government, Mr. Kevin Boland, refused to propose an amendment which would result in the diminution of property rights with regard to the nationalisation of urban building land. Historically that refusal by the Fianna Fáil Government of the day to come to terms with the concept of property and private ownership at that stage of the development of our society, is going to hang the present incumbent of the office of Justice.

We have a simple task at this time. Our people voted for a party in the belief, naive or cynical take your choice, that what was in the manifesto would be implemented. It is unacceptable for the Minister to come here now or in three years time and say "Let us get rid of the first half, which is the prohibition of new ground rents". I am not denying that that would be welcome because it would and it should be law. I regret that it is not law but there are many things which should have been law a long time ago but are not and people on both sides of the House regret it. If there is a lesson to be learned from that, it is not the throwing of snide remarks across the floor of this House. It is that we should look seriously at the way we make laws, which is very antiquated to say the least. If there is a lesson to be learned it should be in how we look at our Constitution and the real constraints it puts on the present incumbents in Government. I do not deny that that is an attractive promise and I can readily see why you have it in your manifesto. It makes a lot of sense.

It was plastered all over Dún Laoghaire by Martin O'Donoghue.

The Deputies should address the Chair and use the third person. Saying "you" and "yours"—and this applies to a number of Deputies—will have to finish.

I apologise if I have given offence to the Chair. Why should anybody have to pay ground rent? Why should I have to pay ground rent to the Earl of Pembroke? Why should anybody have to pay ground rent to the heirs and heiresses of robber barons? It is a nonsense and should not exist. Therefore, any proposal or election promise which offered to do this without qualification is welcome. There is no HP offered here. The commitment of this Government is quite clear. They are not saying they will give half now and half later. They are saying they will "abolish", not "prohibit the creation of new". The word used is quite clear.

This is a simple motion calling on the Government who, after four and a half months in office, having been out of office for a mere four and a half years, and before that were approximately 16 years in office, have enough political expertise, wisdom and ample votes in the overflowing seats to make reality of that promise, if they so choose. All that is causing them to drag their feet—and we have seen the first signs of that now—is the reality of the cost. When it comes to it, this Government do not have the guts for real structural change in our society and they will back off any constitutional change or reform. They have done it before and they will do it again.

If one reads this document one will see a party pledging action on every single issue that confronts our society at the moment. What have we got in questions during the last four weeks? "Under review"; "I have not had time to look at it yet"; "my Department are taking a detailed look at it"; "I will report back to the Deputy"—the young Deputy, the new Deputy —"when I have had time to consider it". Everything is under review. This was not a document of review; it was one of action. The promise in page 21 was not a promise to review the situation about ground rents, it was a promise to abolish them. They did not put in the qualification that it would cost money and one had the choice of not paying ground rent or having new jobs. We are not accepting that qualification. Why should we?

In support of this simple straightforward motion I am saying that the Government should either put up or shut up and go back to the people and say "We are sorry, we cannot deliver" and let the people decide. I have pleasure in supporting this motion.

I am pleased to be associated with Deputy O'Keeffe's and Deputy Quinn's remarks on this motion. One speaks on this motion in the expectation that the Minister will dispense some of the sympathy he has given to all speakers so far. It is my expectation that before very long he will need sympathy more than we do. No matter how one construes this or tries to misinterpret the purpose of this evening's discussion, the Minister's response is extremely disturbing. I thought he would have accepted this motion without equivocation. Instead we get an amendment which asks us to express our confidence in the Minister for Justice and in the way he will tackle the problem. It is too early yet for one to be certain about the question of confidence in the Minister for Justice, but it is disturbing to have observed from outside the House the vociferous and vehement exclamations of the Minister when it applied to the work of his predecessor during very difficult years in regard to a wide variety of topics ranging from ground rents to inquiries into prisons and then to witness what has happened in the interim—the chameleon-like attitude of the Minister and, indeed, of all the Ministers and the amazing effect that government appears to have had on all these men and women who some months ago knew all the answers. Now there is no cry of instant action on ground rents. There is no bleating about the great hardship they are causing and neither is there an outcry or a demand for a public inquiry into prison conditions or into any of the other areas with which the Minister had been so concerned while in Opposition.

We are dealing here with the question of ground rents only. Therefore, the question of prisons should not be introduced.

We are dealing with the question of confidence in the Minister, the issue he raised specifically.

It arises only in connection with ground rents.

I have no wish to be argumentative but perhaps I would be permitted to ask a rhetorical question. By what criteria am I to assess confidence in the Minister for Justice other than the manner in which he measures up to the words that he expressed while in opposition? So far the record in that respect is very discouraging. As Deputy Quinn has pointed out, we have had nothing but constant references to reviews, to thinking about something or other and, basically, to kicking-to-touch at every available opportunity.

The amendment, because it is almost a direct negative of the motion, implies that the Minister is reluctant or even refuses totally to accept even the spirit of the motion we tabled, which calls, in the interest of the public, for the honouring of the commitment that the Minister entered into when it was politically expedient to do so. But he has expressed himself as refusing to accept that commitment. Instead he is trying to fuzz the issue and to turn it into a question of confidence in him. The issue is not one of confidence in the Minister. May be there will be another day when we will be concerned about confidence in the Minister or in the Government but, as the Minister has said, only four months have passed since the change of Government. It would be inappropriate at this stage, unless something drastic should happen, to question our basic confidence in the Minister.

Regarding the specific pledge with which we are concerned this evening, I am disturbed. The confidence I should hope to entrust is somewhat shaken by the Minister referring at great length to the alleged transgressions and sins of omission of the previous Government. I was not a Member of the Dáil at that time but I was a member of the party who were the principal partner in Government. I have no doubt that a number of mistakes were made. There is no point in denying that. The people indicated that in their opinion Fianna Fáil would do a better job. Therefore, to talk about our alleged lack of concern or lack of action is only to underscore what is at least partially obvious. That is why Fianna Fáil were elected. The people were unhappy and Fianna Fáil told them in a manifesto that was a panacea for all ills that they had all the answers to all the national problems, that they had the remedies immediately and not at some halcyon date in the future. The word "immediate" is a constant, repetitious nail in the coffin of that manifesto because a coffin it will become before the next four years have passed. It will become an albatross to hang around the necks of the Minister and his colleagues. It was on the basis of the pledges given both in that manifesto and outside it that the people voted for Fianna Fáil. I trust that the Minister acknowledges the serious concern of this side of the House in our attempts to have those pledges implemented. I trust that he realises the bad example the Government would be giving to young people in particular by not honouring those pledges. Confidence in the parliamentary system is low enough already in some quarters. Let us not turn it into a complete farce by making instant promises for political expediency and the next day choosing to ignore them.

I do not think the Minister will deny that he has committed himself to the abolition of ground rents and to introducing the necessary legislation within six months of the formation of Government. He has a time lag of some weeks. His point is well made that, perhaps, we should have waited for the remaining weeks to expire. We would have waited had it not been for the fact that from the Minister's replies to a number of questions tabled by some Deputies, including Deputy O'Keeffe, it was reasonable to presume there are no ideas in the cupboard on the ground rents question.

We asked whether the Minister was in a position to say if a constitutional amendment were necessary in respect of legislation in this area. That question was not answered except in a very evasive way. Similarly the question of the cost in respect of ground rents was also evaded. All of this leads to the belief that the Fianna Fáil promise in this regard was nothing more than a political gimmick to outbid the then Government. That Government could have been enticed to enter the market place. Perhaps some of their supporters would say that they should have been so enticed in a bid for votes. When associations, vested interests and pressure groups, including ACRA, which is the one involved here, sought pledges prior to the election they found ready listeners in Fianna Fáil and they got their pledge in writing. The Government at the time said honestly that they could not commit themselves in this regard, that they would have to think out the problem. Already they had gone a certain length in this regard. There was a commitment at least to ensure the abolition of the creation of new ground rents.

Obviously, the political carrot was too enticing. Consequently, we have the nil result. I am certain that not only the promise in this regard but many of the other promises were made without any regard to the social, economic, or other consequences. The name of the game was to get back into power at all costs. That attitude is shoddy, unseemly and a disgrace, because right across the face of Government for the last four months and particularly during the past four weeks there has been no evidence of anything but inertia, inactivity and a total lack of ideas.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 16th November, 1977.
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