Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Nov 1977

Vol. 301 No. 10

Industrial Development Bill, 1977: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. J. Ryan

When we adjourned the debate yesterday evening I was trying to analyse the work of the IDA during the past 20 years in relation to my region, particularly my constituency of north Tipperary. While credit can be given to the IDA for their great work in providing jobs in many areas, I must be critical of them in relation to my area.

I have been 21 years in public life and during that time not one State-financed major industry has been established in my area. Therefore, it must be appreciated that my attitude towards the IDA is one of dissatisfaction because of their neglect of north Tipperary. The national achievement during that period may have been good on a regional basis, particularly in relation to the mid-western region and Limerick and Clare, but the creation of employment in north Tipperary has been minimal. When the IDA were established it was decided to include north Tipperary with Limerick and Clare, which was an unfortunate move. Since the inception of the IDA emphasis has been placed on developing the Shannon Airport complex and the populated areas of Limerick city and the surrounding district. Because of this emphasis, the periphery, which is north Tipperary, has received very little consideration. This has led to an imbalance to the detriment of north Tipperary. One could say that we in north Tipperary had to be content with the crumbs from the rich man's table.

There have been recent announcements of major industrial developments in the region. I refer to Alcan on the Shannon estuary and the Beecham consortium at Shannon Airport. During the weekend the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy announced a substantial development in Limerick city, a £4 million industrial complex. There has been no mention of a major industry for north Tipperary.

We are fortunate that our major industries in north Tipperary are based on natural resources and I compliment the managements of these industries on their attitude towards development and expansion. We are grateful for the employment created by these industries. However, I am concerned with Mogul Mines which is adjacant to my home town in north Tipperary. It is a wasting industry, now in its tenth year. It is apparent that it has passed the half-way stage of its development and we should be considering plans for a major industry to fill the vacuum that will be created by its closure. When one considers what is involved in establishing an industry to employ 600 people, one can see that plans for its replacement should be made well in advance of its closure.

Priority should be given by State agencies to plans for a major industry in advance of the terrible day when Mogul closes its doors. If the people of north Tipperary are to have confidence in State agencies, such as the IDA, great activity must be seen in the area, otherwise one can expect complacency and disinterest. The people of the area read of industrial development in other areas while they have been waiting too long. I have raised this matter on many occasions in the House, at local level and with senior officials of the Department and SFADCo, and have asked the question: "How is it that so many industrialists have come to my area, been interested in it and yet the industries have been located elsewhere?" The answer I have been given is that the agency can only go so far but the final decision rests with the industrialists who are concerned and interested in establishing an industry here. I cannot accept that, because I believe that at some level, be it high or low, when industrialists show an interest in establishing an industry they are nudged and directed to specific areas where, in some cases, they do better grant-wise.

The situation in my region is unfortunate for north Tipperary but fortunate for Clare. For years Clare has benefited from various programmes for underdeveloped areas. Industrialists who site their factories there are given additional grants because it is west of the Shannon while those who decide to set up an industry in north Tipperary, which is east of the Shannon, do not qualify for the same amount of financial assistance even though they may want to start an industry in some of the fine towns which can boast all essential services. When industrialists are given such great incentives to start an industry west of the Shannon it is easy to see why many industries were lost by north Tipperary and gained by Clare and the Shannon Airport complex. It is time concerns in north Tipperary were given the same incentives. I accept that at one time it was necessary to give Clare special consideration but anybody travelling through parts of Clare and my constituency can see the imbalance as far as industrial development is concerned. Each area should be given a fair share of the industrial cake.

The small industry development is essential also. An industry that prospers in a small community and gives employment to 20 or 30 women is contributing just as much to the national economy as a major industry employing between 400 and 500 people. If we are sincere and concerned about renewing and revitalising rural Ireland we must give a greater share of money to build up the small industries. I am talking in terms of areas of population of 500 people. For such settlements to survive it is important that we make ourselves aware of their needs at county council and government level. There are four major towns in my area, Thurles, Nenagh, Roscrea and Templemore and in the past we were fortunate in obtaining some small industries. However, I am not satisfied and I will continue to voice my criticism of State agencies that ignore towns like those I mentioned.

In my town a 70 acre industrial site has been available for the last three years for a major industry. That was accomplished through the good offices of the country development team and the agents for the IDA in the area, the Shannon Free Airport Development Company, but that site remains a monument. The Parliamentary Secretary should take cognisance of this situation because State and local money was used to purchase that valuable piece of property.

I should like to welcome the announcement that Ballingarry coalmines are to reopen even though it will only be on a restricted basis with a maximum of 150 workers being employed. That is good news for this depressed area which suffered for many years since the closure of the mines almost seven years ago. Without being critical, I wish to state that the reopening is no thanks to the IDA or any State agency. I should like to compliment the two gentlemen from Clonmel who are concerned with this industry because it was through their good offices, their interest and their courage that a start is being made again in Ballingarry to produce a fuel badly needed to offset our balance of payments deficit and contribute greatly to the development of the area. The Minister should bear in mind the serious unemployment situation in the area of Slieveardagh. Some years ago the area was designated as a special place for industrial development because the situation there was so serious. That is ample proof that the powers-that-be realised how urgent the problem was.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have allowed the Deputy a lot of latitude in the matter of dealing with local specific questions in detail and while I hesitate to rule him out of order I must point out that the Bill deals with other matters.

Mr. J. Ryan

In the past we have had economic programmes for industrial expansion, White Papers and guidelines, but as far as I am concerned those efforts lacked muscle, power and the finance to back up their objectives of creating jobs and keeping our people at home. As a result I consider that all those programmes were an abysmal failure, irrespective of the whitewashing that was done. I appeal to the IDA to tackle the job of assisting all parts of the country. I appreciate that there is a high proportion of unemployment in Dublin but we must consider the country as a whole. The man in Nenagh is as much entitled to a job as the man in Ballyfermot and the man in Ballingarry who has been unemployed since the mines closed seven years ago is as much entitled to recognition as the man who has been unemployed for some time in Cork and Dublin.

I should like to compliment the regional development boards and the county development teams and recommend greater power for them. They have done tremendous work at regional and local level and are the organisations most aware of the local problems. They should be involved in decision-making and the placing of industries. I shall continue to watch the progress of the IDA in my area and look forward to greater industrial development in north Tipperary and the country in general.

Mr. Flynn

Every debate I have sat through since coming into this House has included people from the Opposition who seemed determined to drag our manifesto into the discussion. I cannot understand why they are so pre-occupied with it, except perhaps to substantiate the view held generally throughout the country that we are making a good job of its implementation. I always understood that in this House the Opposition would always be available with fresh thinking and initiatives to help our Ministers to do a better job, but it seems they are destitute of any thinking of that nature. They continue to refer to the manifesto at every available opportunity, as if it were the only thing our term of office is to produce, and they continually harass our Ministers because they are not fulfilling their commitments speedily enough. The truth of the situation is that the general public are astonished at the speed with which our Ministers are fulfilling their commitments. Indeed, so astonished are they that they expect next year, when all our commitments have been honoured, a fresh manifesto will emerge from the back rooms of Fianna Fáil, to which I look forward. It is about time that was said.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is nothing in the Bill about the manifesto.

Mr. Flynn

This has been niggling me since I came into this House. I cannot understand why they continue to refer to this matter at every single opportunity. Surely there is somebody with some initiative on that side of the House who can produce some fresh thinking. Our thinking is on the record. We are producing the goods and the general public are happy with them. I fail to understand why the Opposition cannot be happy also.

Reference was also made to the fact that it was not the Fianna Fáil Party who originally established the IDA. That is on the record and I shall not deal with it. At this stage in our development it does not matter too much who started the IDA. What matters is that we give them the teeth to perform their function as intended, and that is what the Minister is at present doing. Indeed were we to apply that criterion to everything else I suppose we could say that Henry Ford had something to do with the motor car. Were we back some 50 or 60 years ago our communications probably would be at a very low ebb. It is the development of these things that matters. Consequently, I am glad the Minister has taken upon himself the power to provide the IDA with the necessary finance to do the job originally intended.

Our most pressing national problem at present is that of unemployment. It is also agreed by everybody that the most difficult object to achieve by the Government in office at present is the attainment of full employment. Fewer people are now required in the agricultural sector. That, together with the virtual elimination of emigration in the last decade, makes the problem all the more acute. Because this problem is so acute it is necessary to strengthen legislation in order to provide the IDA and other related organisations with the financial and legislative facilities to play their full role in the final solution of those problems. They will have to provide the framework for the modernisation and development of new infrastructures, retrain our workers, especially our farmers, and also our school leavers; provide opportunities for graduates and entrepreneurs, large and small, promoting productive investment in industry, services and handcrafts.

With free trade now a reality the need for mergers in certain industries has become more apparent. The Industrial Credit Company have played an important role for some years in bringing about that type of merger. A number of our larger Irish industrial complexes have benefited greatly from this organisation. Together with the Industrial Credit Company, I understand that the Industrial Development Authority will now provide advice on the desirability of these associations and amalgamations, that they will help with the negotiations and, where necessary, provide financial assistance in the form of interest subsidies and loan guarantees for moneys borrowed for these purposes.

The establishment of the Common Market and the advent of free trade have worried many of our smaller industries. It is accepted that the small business today must adapt itself to the large market to enable industry face the tougher climate of the open domestic market and foreign competition. It is necessary for businesses to standardise their production lines where at all possible. To remain profitable it has been found that companies have had to operate on a much larger scale. It is also important for companies to develop new techniques and products. To achieve this massive investment in research is often necessary, thus creating problems for most of our small companies. Indeed often they do not have the financial resources to undertake the necessary research to stay abreast of their competitors. This Bill will provide finance to industry to engage in the necessary research to meet modern technological advances in all industries, especially the larger types.

Some years ago the belief was widely held that the only way the industrial challenge of the United States could be matched or met was to set up giant corporations in Europe. I am glad to note that there is somewhat different thinking now. Despite the fact that industrial mergers have to be favoured where they are indispensable it is the considered opinion of many now that there is a tremendous future awaiting our smaller industries and crafts. From close examination of the American industrial scene it is obvious that the small industry can thrive alongside the larger industrial complexes. Indeed, it has been found that some 80 per cent of all companies and industries operating in the United States have less than ten employees. Europe, perhaps, by tradition, has always favoured the smaller-scale firm or business. If, as is suggested, we are coming to the end of large-scale industrial operations here, increasingly we must turn our attention to the small-scale operations. So far as rural Ireland is concerned, it is my belief that the greatest development there will be in the small industries field. Because of the great difference in consumer tastes and habits there will always be a corresponding variety of manufactured goods necessary to satisfy those tastes. It has often been found that it is cheaper to invest in labour than in equipment. As far as Ireland is concerned the need, for the time being at least, to mechanise is less urgent that it would be on the Continent or in the United States. For that reason it is necessary that the small industries division of the IDA play an increasingly important role in the future development and relief of unemployment in modern Ireland.

It was interesting to note the recent Rothery Report from the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards Group which concerned itself with a study of some 25 Irish entrepreneurs in the manufacturing and engineering industries. All of these people started with no capital at all, or at most very little. Today, ten years later, they employ 3,574 people and have a turnover of some £41 million. It is interesting also to read that they had a growth rate of some 50 per cent in their turnover in that period. Companies of that kind and entrepreneurs working at that level surely must have a major source of industry available for our people. Also they must play an increasingly important role in the creation of new jobs. Of those 25 entrepreneurs approximately six started industries concerned with domestic housing, not so much the actual construction of the houses as the products that went into them. They also made a little dent in the world consumer durable products scene. If they had a minute participation in that world market, surely there is ample opportunity to develop that scene so far as Irish entrepreneurs on the small scale are concerned.

Of the people surveyed their background was unique in that they had a low level of formal education. For many of them their only formal education was primary or vocational school education. I venture to say that our universities have not assisted significantly in the growth of entrepreneurial activity and job creation. Of the 25 people surveyed, only two had formal university training and they had a BE degree and had been in industry after leaving university. It could be said that many of our university-trained people are not orientated towards machines. Certainly they are not orientated towards product development and marketing development. Most of the people on whom we rely to set up small industries were employed in existing manufacturing and service industries. If they were asked why they set up their own industries many of them would say it was because of frustration with their employers and lack of opportunity. That is the kind of people we should be talking about and looking for.

All the people in the survey generated their own initial capital from revenue. Very few of them had IDA help; the figure might be two. I agree that later on the IDA played a part in helping them to diversify and expand but in the initial stage they had to generate their own capital. There seems to be no system which helps new entrepreneurs in the initial stage of their development. Those people—and there are hundreds of them in the country—should be identified in the industries in which they work. They should be introduced to new products, especially those orientated towards the export market. They should be given assistance so that they can get over that painful initial period when finance can play such an important role. If they were given that kind of assistance they would play an increasingly important role in providing new job opportunities and new industrial development here.

For some considerable time a source of controversy has been the kind of industry that should be sought and encouraged by the IDA. It is probably true to say that in the market-place of industrial development we cannot be as selective now as we were in the past because we are competing with other developing countries. Despite the fact that the IDA have the experience and expertise in this field, they still have to compete with the increasing demands and incentives from other countries that are anxious to promote their own development programmes.

As far as we are concerned we are in the market for both labour-intensive industry and capital-intensive industries. It is true to say that the capital-intensive industry usually brings with it a more up-to-date technology. It is recognised that this kind of industry has less employment potential so far as numbers are concerned but it is the experience of those concerned with this kind of industry that it can usually withstand periods of recession and it has greater stability in the long term. At first sight labour-intensive industry would seem to be the most desirable in a high unemployment situation but in times of recession or over-production in certain types of industry it can lead to high redundancy and industrial relations problems. There have been many such examples in Ireland in the recent past.

It is heartening to note that because of improved conditions recently in industrial exports there has been a substantial drop in the number of jobs lost through factory closures and redundancies. The IDA are to be congratulated on their efforts in the recent past for producing for the first time in three or four years a net increase in the numbers working in industry. One of the frightening figures from the annual report was that between 1973 and 1976 we created 71,000 jobs but there were virtually 74,000 losses. There must be something in that for all of us. What is the point of being hellbent on providing structures and the necessary finance to create all those jobs when we are not paying enough attention to job losses? If we could have maintained even a decent percentage of those jobs we would be well on the way to obtaining a desirable employment situation.

Despite international competition Ireland is still attracting good quality manufacturing products from overseas and it is hoped this will continue. In my own area there are such names as Travenol, Epitex, Allergon, Bluebell and Thermo—all of them international names of repute that are welcome to the industrial scene. I hope the IDA will be able to continue providing the industrial scene with this kind of operator. The IDA scheme to encourage and assist joint ventures in manufacturing products has been a unique success and perhaps therein lies the growth centre for greater industrial development in the future. It is hoped that a continuation of this programme will lead to more secure employment and greater security for employees.

In all this activity, and especially the development of heavy industry, it is important to ensure that the amount of equity investment put up by the promoters will be sufficient to deter them from abandoning their schemes in times of recession, unemployment or industrial unrest. It is recognised that the IDA grants—borrowing in Ireland and tax concessions of all kinds—have helped to attract industry here. They have been very generous in the past but safeguards must be built in to any industry supported in this way that commitment does not cease at the first sign of trouble. I do not suppose it is anything to do with the recent letter from the Church hierarchy about justice but I think that message should be prescribed reading for people engaged in industrial relations.

The general public has given a majority to Fianna Fáil to run the country and to take the initiative as far as industrial relations are concerned. In life and in death situations the onus of responsibility will fall squarely on our shoulders and we will have to answer for it. If the nettle has to be grasped, I am satisfied that our Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy has the courage to grasp it. If the game is being played, and if the teams are the unions on the pitch, just as in any game when a foul is committed the referee has to blow his whistle. Perhaps the time has come for the Minister to blow his whistle. I am happy to remember that he comes from a long line of people who have had the courage to grasp the nettle if necessary.

I am not talking about bringing in legislation to curb the power of the unions, as we hear advocated from people who do not understand the situation. Maybe it is the other way round. It may be necessary to bring in legislation to strengthen unions. When you realise that there are 93 unions representing our small labour force in a population of just over three million and that in other countries three, four or five unions represent millions of people, you will see the need for legislation of some kind. The time will come when something will have to be done to strengthen the unions so that their executives will have the confidence and support of their members.

An Ceann Comhairle

Industrial relations are the concern of another Minister.

Mr. Flynn

I agree. The Department of Industry, Commerce and Energy have a large part to play in the encouragement and introduction of industry and are concerned with all foreign industrialists and problems arising from labour relations. The day may come when the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy will also be responsible for industrial relations. I do not want to put a Fianna Fáil Minister out of work or make his Department defunct but there seems to be overlapping in this regard.

The small industries programme has been very successful over the years. It is in this area of activity that the greatest scope for future development lies as far as industry is concerned. In the case of consumer goods and services, small firms have a special role to play in satisfying local needs that cannot be met by mass production. Customers seeking individuality can only be satisfied by the small scale operator. This is especially true in catering for such clients as tourists and foreign customers. This is an increasing market and should be encouraged.

So far as repairs and services are concerned, we are all aware that the small scale operator provides the best service in this field. Paradoxically, economic and technological progress, which many of us feared would eliminate the small firms, has created new needs which the small operator is best able to provide. When it comes to servicing cars, television sets, washing machines and so on, the small firm gives the greatest satisfaction. God help anybody who has to go to the big operator because he can be waiting a a long time for service.

In industry the small operators supply large industrial concerns with the goods required. Many of our large sophisticated production groups depend to a large extent on small businesses to supply them with specialised components. Small companies have the advantage of being able to specialise and co-operate with one another. It is by specialising that the small operator can often supply technically advanced goods and services much more cheaply than the large firm.

A small firm is also best equipped to stimulate development in rural areas. It has proved to be very difficult at times to set up large industrial complexes in the west but it has been proved eminently more profitable for small firms which require relatively little capital and labour to set up in that area. It has often been said that if some of the capital made available to attract foreign industries on a large scale had been left for small Irish industries, much cheaper and more secure development might have taken place.

It is agreed by all that the development of medium and heavy industries should be energetically pursued but at no time should it be allowed to monopolise existing capital so that there would not be sufficient for the development of small industries. Unfortunately the small industry, despite specialisation, will not of its own have the resources to solve marketing and research problems. That is why the IDA should encourage small firms to co-operate. They should encourage firms to concentrate on certain aspects of production and to economise on marketing, purchasing and advertising. Groups of small firms could join together to seek new outlets and thus become more export minded. Agreement could be reached between small firms to share the research costs which are so necessary to develop new products and techniques and to help maintain their share of the exports market.

To encourage greater development in the small industry division, it will be necessary to give county development teams much greater autonomy. As it is, those teams have no discretion in the small industries programme although they can make recommendations. If better results are to be sought discretion above the £1,200 limit will have to be given to the special regional development fund. I suggest that £5,000 might not be too much to put at their disposal. It would be safe enough to assume that there is no danger of things being let slip through because there is enough expertise and management expertise on the development teams to guarantee scrutiny of all applicants.

It is only when we look at the complexity of the application form for a small industry that we begin to realise why many young entrepreneurs are scared off. Existing measures applied to applicants looking for small industries grants are stifling the initiative of people who are most anxious to get into this scheme. The application form has all kinds of questions—about design, building, machinery they have and or which they want, raw materials, employment potential, training, management and technical control, finance, turnover, costings, working capital, liabilities, marketing, had they been in touch with the CTT, NDA and so on. When gentlemen from these organisations arrive in their pin-striped suits to talk to small industrialists or people in their working clothes who are anxious to start new industries, they can easily be scared off by all this talk of high finance and marketing through various organisations.

The people from the IDA do great work for medium and larger industries but the small-scale operator should not be put through this rigorous test before he is given a few thousand pounds to get on the road. These operators have proved to be most successful. The county development officer scrutinises the first application. Then it goes before the county development team. They have always been most anxious to help. It then goes to the projects officer of the IDA, small industries section, and is given an in-depth scrutiny. A report is often required from the industrial research and standards department on financial projections for operations up to two years in advance. What small industrialist or entrepreneur starting off can give that kind of programming to the officers? They require a breakdown on the relationship with agriculture, market breakdowns, cash flows, chartered accountants' reports—all resulting in delays of six to 18 months. This is often the critical period for the man who has not the formal education to withstand this kind of pressure and he is put off. The initiative is often lost and valuable job creation opportunities are lost with it.

The requirements of the application are too rigid. Greater trust should be put in those willing to take their courage in their hands and set up small industries. The enterprise development programme is very necessary in the developing of jobs needed in the small towns and in servicing the needs of new large scale industry. While the enterprise development programme should seek out graduates and others engaged in local authorities, semi-State bodies and public institutions as well as executives in manufacturing and service industries who have skills and ingenuity, we must never forget the number of small businessmen in rural towns who have very special skills and who are always willing to utilise the training they have got—many of them have got the training in Britain—to create new job opportunities here.

The vast majority of those people have no university training but they have the expertise which is required. All they need is the financial assistance to create the job opportunities we so badly need in rural Ireland. There is one classic example which is used very often as far as Mayo is concerned. A man, after spending a few years in England returned home with less than £1 in his pocket. He started a small project in his village and today he employs 40 people. If that is not the success story of the year I do not know what it is.

There are many areas that the small projects team call sensitive and they will not give support to them. There is a long list of them given. In many cases people like carpenters and joiners provide a social need. They provide very worth-while local employment. They were refused grant assistance by the IDA while joinery is still being imported not only into Mayo from other parts of the country but from the United Kingdom. I do not believe that it is true to say that the sharpening of the tools in one small business in an area leads to unemployment in an adjoining area. It must be remembered that there are many developing towns in the country and large industries need the services of those small-type industries based on joinery and such related craft industries.

The IDA should lift the blanket refusal and grant this type of operation some assistance. They would then find they could generate many job opportunities in rural Ireland. Small engineering works, particularly in the agricultural engineering sector, are being refused grant assistance. This happens in an area where agriculture is and will continue to be the livelihood of the vast majority of the people. It is hard to comprehend how the IDA can justify refusing grant aid assistance to such type of small engineering industries when one considers that approximately £42 million worth of this type of agricultural equipment is imported every year. Much of this could be made in some of our industrial engineering concerns.

We all know how the Sugar Company have developed agricultural machinery. It is not only holding its own on the world market but is leading the world market in many areas. It is obvious from that one example that we have the expertise and the enterprise. Why are the IDA not grantaiding small- and medium-sized agricultural engineering projects? They must lift the blanket refusal from this type of project. The job opportunities which could be created there are vast. It was mentioned in a report I saw recently that one person started off that type of industry with a welder in the back garden. I know of no small engineering industry that started off on that scale that had not a turnover well into the four, five and six figures within a few short years.

A special section should be set up in the IDA to investigate the engineering industry. It seems ridiculous in an agricultural country like this that we should import £42 million worth of agricultural engineering goods in a year. This is a suitable time to examine the policy in relation to small-type industries. Will this programme cater for local enterprise in joinery and other related industries? We have the enterprise, the technique and the expertise waiting to be tapped. Considerable jobs could be created if sufficient grant aid is willingly given to the IDA.

Perhaps the IDA might have a word with the ESB in this regard. There are many small-type operators who are being denied the chance of getting a start in life by excessive demands by the ESB for connecting electricity. If necessary grants should be made available to defray the cost of those connections. When a man has the initiative to go ahead that initiative often lasts a very short time and can be stifled by the smallest setback at the initial stage.

I saw some trade statistics from the Central Statistics Office for the different years. They cover importations but they give them under global headings. Division 72, under electrical machinery, gives the imports for April as £10 million. What machinery? Could we have a list of the type of machinery imported? Under transport equipment we find that £15 million worth of goods were imported and under Division 83, travel goods, we find that £318,000 worth were imported. How many small industries are engaged in this type of industry? They should specify what type of travel goods are imported so that the young entrepreneurs who are interested in setting up industries in that field would have an opportunity of seeing what is coming into the country and then can say to themselves: "I can do that." This would then put an end to another importation.

The Central Statistics Office should differentiate the different sections under engineering, science, textiles, plastics, chemistry and so forth so that those people will have the opportunity to see where their talents can best be utilised. There should be a new system of licensing in regard to industries in the United States and the United Kingdom. There must be a huge European market in that field. If proper programming was done under a licensing scheme we could produce many of the goods under licence from larger firms to supply the home market and the export market on the Continent of Europe. This should be updated every year. The IDA should seek those arrangements.

It is also hoped that this new Bill will provide support not only for the individual but for partners and limited companies as well. It has always been accepted that the formation of a limited company is a very sensible exercise for anyone starting out in manufacturing or other business. The IDA should broaden their base to cover such projects. It will be disappointing if support is there only for working capital. In a small industries programme the person who has the ideas, expertise and knowledge of the markets and perhaps an excellent chance of success does not always have the capital or collateral. Will this kind of operator get only the normal grant of 60 per cent in the designated area of the fixed assets? If so how will he be able to secure the remaining 40 per cent? There would seem to be a missing dimension there. I would be delighted if the Minister would clarify that in his summing up. In his statement introducing Second Stage he said, as reported in the Official Report of 2nd November, 1977, Volume 301, column 158:

Accordingly it is proposed in this Bill to provide for the giving of loan guarantees and interest subsidies to first-time industrialists, in respect of loans raised to provide working capital.

The IDA might be persuaded to take equity in such small projects. If they would it would be interesting to know if they would allow the promoter to buy out the business from the IDA if and when it was successful. If so, would it be possible to have the terms of the purchase laid down in advance? This would be a considerable incentive to young promoters who would like, as would all of us, to be the owners of their own projects.

In a progressive society the greater part of a country's wealth is generated by the private sector. Privately-owned business has always been less wasteful of its resources than has public business. If it is intended to allow the private sector to develop its full potential as far as industrial development is concerned it will be necessary to have another look at the taxation system as it applies to private industries operating in this country. Many long-established industries have been brought to the wall in the past and they might have been saved if they had had the necessary reserves from an enlightened tax system. It would have given them the resources that were so necessary for their development. Most industries expand and they replace their equipment from their own financial resources, but how can these resources be built up if the company tax system as it presently exists in this country so denudes them of capital resources that they are unable to expand or replace old and worn-out machinery? So they end up with declining profits and become another dead body of Fóir Teoranta. It is well recognised by small business in this country that there has been over-taxation of company profits over the years which has resulted in the lessening of working capital available to industry. Consequently job opportunities could not be created and all too often Fóir Teoranta had to be called to the rescue, or indeed to preside over the final obsequies of many a fine Irish industry. It is very little comfort to established Irish industry trying to make ends meet to know that the IDA are granting tax-free holidays to overseas concerns coming here to set up a business.

It has been touch and go with the IDA who have been endeavouring with might and main to attract new industry here for the purpose of job creation, so as to keep pace with the loss of jobs in other industry often caused by impoverishment brought about by a penal tax system of long-established Irish business interests. As well as supporting the IDA in attracting industry by offering all kinds of tax concessions, grant aid and so on to foreign investment, we should make every effort to remove handicaps placed on Irish industry. The greatest handicap at this time is the company taxation law. If there were a more enlightened taxation system applicable to Irish industry some of the provisions of this Bill might not be necessary. Some of the provisions would lead one to believe that we are now trying to redress the situation created by our own taxation greed in the past. If we are to accept the policy which says that we must promote maximum private investment, it is logical to assume that the source of such investment must be allowed to be accumulated in this country. Money held here must be encouraged to be channelled into this investment rather than to lie idle or, worse still, to be invested abroad. If capital taxes force Irish wealth to leave this country or doom it to low-yield activity, then a disservice has been done to the nation. The Minister should look at these taxes with a view to having them revised or, better still, abolished.

I welcome the Minister's statement concerning the setting up of a consortium for the purpose of job creation and generally monitoring our performance in this regard, identifying obstacles to the growth of industry and suggesting solutions that would be in the common interest. It is important that Irish people control their own destiny, and the control of the major part of our industry is very desirable. In this regard I welcome the section of the Bill that allows equity participation by the IDA in Irish business. The personal and corporate taxation systems applied in Ireland have actively worked against the accumulation of private reserves and investment funds which are required in a developing country such as ours. The results are inconsistent with the Government's policy of seeking to create a domestic climate conducive to private investment. There are many indications that over the past few years the private sector has been unwilling to undertake further investment in this country. This is forcing the IDA and the Government to pick up the slack out of public funds. There is a body of opinion which feels that the corporate tax system is acting as a disincentive to private investment and that instead of bringing in revenue to the Exchequer it is putting further burdens and pressures on the Exchequer through an increased demand for public investment funds.

If this is the case it is time that the abolition of direct tax on businesses should be considered. The results of such abolition would be that more money would be obtained by companies for use in their own reinvestment programmes so that they would be in a position to build up capital stocks and thus reduce their dependence on borrowed funds the servicing of which has aggravated the difficulty of many businesses and has been the cause of many of them ending up in financial difficulties in the past. I cannot see how the abolition of company tax would in any way mean the evading of tax by the companies concerned. If the company decided to pay dividends to their shareholders out of their surplus this would be taxable against the personal incomes of the recipients. Even if some of the surplus or profits were distributed as bonuses to the staff that would also be attached to the personal taxation system.

Some Deputies from the eastern part of the country mentioned here on more than one occasion that Dublin now had a crisis situation as far as unemployment was concerned. I agree that Dublin is a special case and indeed in some respects has been a special case since the foundation of this State. Some new strategy must be worked out for the east coast and the conurbation of the city. I do not like the suggestion that the west has benefited out of proportion to its needs to the detriment of the city area.

Since the foundation of the State, 90,000 people left County Mayo on the emigrant ship. There were no jobs for them. I will regard the balance as having been levelled off when the IDA or any other agency provide the 90,000 jobs to bring my fellow countrymen back from foreign shores. The score will be levelled then, and not until then. I say that with the greatest respect for the IDA who in the recent past made a dynamic improvement in Mayo.

Let us take two figures which are important in this context. In September, 1977, the unemployment situation in County Mayo was as follows: a total of 5,272 persons were drawing unemployment and assistance benefit, and there were 4,376 small holders in the same region. That is the official position of unemployment in County Mayo. I suggest those figures mask, to a degree, the real position, considering that girls who left school in 1976 and 1977 and are not entitled to unemployment benefit are not included in those figures. Neither are school leavers with academic qualifications for whom there are no jobs.

The position in County Mayo has changed dramatically in the past ten years. In 1965, 1,371 persons were employed in manufacturing industry in the county. By 1st January, 1977, that figure had risen to 4,052. Great efforts were made by the IDA in the location of sizeable industries in Mayo to achieve that figure. The one single industry which is the talking point along the west coast is the Travenol laboratory which came with the promise of 200 jobs, and we now have 1,000 people employed in Castlebar with spin off industries located in Belmullet, Swinford and Tuam, and further developments on the way.

However, that industry has brought its own problems and, coupled with the decentralisation of the Department of Lands to Castlebar, it has brought a unique problem to Castlebar. There is now an imbalance between the male and female population structure in the area. This imbalance has to be corrected because, if it is allowed to get out of control, we will end up in a worse situation than the one in which we started.

The population structure has gone out of balance in my area and it will require at least one sizeable male-orientated industry located in the west Mayo region to correct that imbalance. There are many suitable and ideal locations in west Mayo for such a venture. I would ask the IDA to pay particular attention to this problem and to generate new jobs to correct the population imbalance which has grown up in the past few years.

There is a rumour afoot—and I hope it cannot be substantiated—that the decentralisation programme is being stifled by moves from the city to cut off work from it and thereby lessen the number of people employed in the Castlebar office. That programme was initiated by the Fianna Fáil Government in office and nothing in the past few years has improved the situation so far as the location of the Department of Lands in Castlebar is concerned. I hope my Government, the new Government, will proceed with new initiatives to finish off the job they started: the total decentralisation of the Department to Castlebar.

There is another figure which is very interesting and which has to be referred to here, that is, the number of people in County Mayo between 15 and 19 years of age and 20 and 24 years of age. In 1966, the 15 to 19 year age group stood at 10,895 and, five years later, in 1977, the 20 to 24 years age group stood at 5,928, a loss of 4,967—in other words, 45.6 per cent of the young people of County Mayo. If those figures alone do not suggest to the Minister and to the Government that there is a continuing need for job creation in Mayo, nothing else will—and I do not care what goes on on the east coast.

How can you lose almost half of the teenagers and young men and women and hope to have a community which can survive and thrive? We must pay attention to these figures. The IDA must gear their operations to these figures. If by spending a few thousand pounds, on a small entrepreneurial industry, or a few million pounds on a large-scale male-orientated industry, we solve this problem, a decent job of work will have been done by the Minister and the Government to provide the infrastructure which will keep 100 per cent of our young men and women in our own native county.

Not one of those people between 19 and 24 years of age wanted to leave County Mayo. I will tell the House why. It is the last uncommercialised area in western Europe. It will become the playground and the main tourist attraction of Europe in the future. It is the only place left which is unpolluted, uncommercialised and still has the native hospitality for which the Irish are famous.

Since we are discussing industrial promotion it would not be out of place to refer to Asahi and the fears expressed by many people about the raw material being transported to that industry. It is a pity all the people who criticised it were not present when the tests were carried out on the inflammability of acrilic-nitrate. It was found that petrol was much more explosive and much more inflammable than this material. Those types of trucks are passing our doors every day of the week.

That industry is a very useful addition to the industrial scene in County Mayo. It cost a great deal to put it there. As I said before, perhaps enough equity was not taken up by foreign promoters. There was a huge capital allocation from the financial interests involved in this country. I hope phase two will come to fruition. There is a feeling of unease that phase two will not get off the ground. Everything must be done to ensure that happy labour relations will exist in that company. It would be a national tragedy of immense proportions to County Mayo if anything were to happen in an industry of that size. It is the first large-scale heavy industry we have seen in our county. We need others, especially male-orientated ones. Imbalances must be corrected.

I am happy to welcome this Bill which strengthens the legislative structure and financing designed to make the IDA more useful in its promotional activities, more efficient in attracting industry and with a direct say in the future of industry. I look forward to the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy and the Minister for Labour becoming the inseparable twins of Irish industry, all the time taking initiatives and introducing legislation which will improve the industrial relations structure and industrial development generally. Indeed, this will be demanded by the people. The people have given us the right to govern and to do everything necessary for the nation's well-being.

Mr. O'Toole

I welcome the Bill. Unlike Deputy Flynn from my own county, I shall refrain from mentioning the unmentionable document, any mention of which is now painful to some members of the Government and their backbenchers. Deputy Flynn will find out in time what the facts of life are where political manifestos are concerned.

There are just a few points about the Bill. It is designed to broaden the functions of the IDA, bringing the IDA up to date from the legislative and financial point of view. The Bill provides for the establishment of an industrial consortium. Now certain people have reservations about the ability of this consortium to do the job specified. Possibly one of the reasons for those reservations stems from the vagueness of the utterances so far in relation to this body. It will not create jobs. We are told it will be a co-ordinating agency. I have certain reservations about the capabilities of this body but I genuinely hope it will work and carry out its functions in accordance with the expectations of its originators.

Anything dealing with industrial expansion or development is non-contentious. Both sides have always sought to ensure that anything done to further industrial development had the support and co-operation of both sides. The only notable exception to that was the opposition of the Fianna Fáil Party to the establishment of the IDA. They had a perfect right to have reservations. They were probably founded on fear of the unknown. Since then the IDA has proved eminently successful and the Government and their supporters are now prepared to back it up to the hilt.

Now I have the same kind of reservations about this consortium for the same reasons, fear of the unknown but, hopefully, an ungrounded fear. In ten or 15 years' time someone in this seat may stand up and express gratitude for the day when this consortium was set up. I hope that will be the case though I have reservations about it.

It would take a very brave person to criticise the IDA, because it has done an excellent job on behalf of industry in the past 27 years. However, we must remember that the IDA is in the good-news business. Ask anybody in rural areas what is the most important agency and I can assure you in nine cases out of ten he or she will unhesitatingly reply the IDA, just because it is a good-news agency. When something is announced it is already in existence. If there is no good news there is no announcement. It is their privilege to operate in that way. There is nothing wrong in not announcing bad news.

We are responsible for the framework in which the IDA operate but there are times when one would hope for an in-depth look at the overall working of the IDA. To date, we have been regarded as an agricultural country and, looking at the figures, we still are. Unfortunately a very disturbing figure is now being bandied about. In 1971, 21 per cent of our total work force was engaged in agriculture. The projection for 1986, nine years hence, is something in the region of 10 or 11 per cent of the total work force engaged in agriculture. In effect that means that a great thrust forward will be necessary in the expansion of industry. Allied to that, the virtual termination of emigration is another factor which will cause unemployment to become a more critical area. We who are lucky enough to live in areas where major developments have taken place recently have witnessed a reversal of emigration, with people who emigrated some years ago due to lack of opportunity here coming back now with their families, setting up house here and getting jobs. So, I fully agree with Deputy Flynn's general sentiment that until we can say: "We have now created enough jobs to cater for our current needs and the needs of those who were forced to leave the country". we have not righted the situation. That is a fair assessment.

The task ahead will be difficult. With emigration virtually stopped the average young man or woman, having completed education at national, vocational, secondary or third level, is not prepared to seek a living elsewhere, not because opportunities elsewhere have receded or do not even exist but because we are a more educated community, more demanding and we feel the country in which we are born owes us a living. I often think of the enormous responsibility we in this House have because it is this House that is expected to uphold the rights of these people and provide opportunities for them. We should more often think about this responsibility when entering on a political career because if we fail we shall be damned in the eyes of many thousands of people whose expectations we have raised and whose demands we have not met.

Unemployment at the moment is very high. Due to recession in the past couple of years it has increased but even prior to that, the tolerance expressed by the people and by successive Governments of the level of unemployment in so-called good times is, in retrospect, amazing. I am not making a political point but we tolerated a level of unemployment in successive National Coalition Governments, as Fianna Fáil did in their time in office —before we came into office in 1973 about 70,000 people were unemployed and we are told that the late sixties and early seventies were boom times —which may be politically acceptable inasmuch as we can get away with it as politicians, but it is not socially acceptable and the problems created by that level of unemployment are something that I think we cannot handle in future because people are becoming more demanding. They demand a rise in their standard of living; they demand their rights from the powers-that-be, such as this House, and while that level of unemployment in the past may have been at least on the surface acceptable, it may not be so in the future. Definitely, it would not be socially acceptable because the problems created by it would be so great and on the increase that it would be beyond our capabilities to solve it within the present framework.

I should also like to mention in this context the problem of overtime brought about by inflation and high expectations. The person in employment is demanding more and more overtime. This must be to the detriment of the unemployed. This is an area that must be examined very carefully because there are people who are in gainful employment, some in State agencies and State bodies, who are absolutely paranoid about overtime. In many cases all their commitments are based on the expectation of overtime. At the same time you have the general working body seeking shorter working hours. There is no contradiction here because overtime brings a higher rate of pay and if you establish a shorter working week and actually work a longer week your proportion of overtime will be greater and consequently your take-home pay. We cannot afford that luxury with large numbers of people unemployed.

The role of the IDA has been discussed many times here and elsewhere. Within the limitation of their functions to seek industry abroad and establish industry here, they work well. At this stage, I think it is time to look again to see if what was functional, acceptable, correct and practical 20 years ago is so today or if it should be changed.

There is a lobby here which says that the IDA set out to get industry into this country and that they accept the concept of industry at any price. That is not true. Deputy Flynn mentioned the Japanese industry, Asahi, which is situated in my constituency. That caused a fair amount of comment at national level because of the alleged danger of pollution from disposal of effluent and because of the danger of raw materials being transported across the country. Many of the fears have been allayed and questions have been answered to the satisfaction of all concerned. More recently in Cork there was controversy concerning the same problem.

Many genuinely well-meaning groups are concerned about the concept of industry at any price, but we must be careful not to turn away major industrial development. We are now members of the EEC and it is because of that membership that much of our expansion has taken place. We are a good base from which commodities can be launched into the EEC markets. We have a labour force and the facilities, apart from some areas. We are an attractive country in that we provide good incentives to foreign investors, but all that is not at any price.

However, a price must be paid to industrialise a country, and anybody who says differently has his head in the sand. The industrial revolution which took place in the last century in England has shown that a high price was paid for industrialisation. While on one side there were great improvements and vast strides forward were made in employment conditions with the establishment of workers' unions and so on nevertheless a price had to be paid. In some cases, where there was not the sophistication we have now for monitoring pollution, a very high price was paid and mistakes were made. I maintain that this country is now in the middle of an industrial revolution. We were untouched by the last industrial revolution. We have a great opportunity in that we need not repeat the mistakes made elsewhere and we can in retrospect find out what mistakes were made and how they can be avoided. Because of international pressures we are tempted to take an industry from abroad regardless of the consequences. That is a disadvantage. When an industry comes here there are many constraints and it goes under great scrutiny, but we are leaving ourselves open to the unreasonable charge that the pressures are so great on the IDA and the competition is so cutthroat that we are prepared to grasp at anything.

The National Economic and Social Council have done studies and have commissioned studies with regard to the siting of industries. There are two schools of thought here. One suggests that large industry should be located in large growth centres and the other is that smaller type industries would be a more appropriate approach for this country. We are told that the policy pursued is one somewhere in between, where small industries are as far as possible established in suitable areas for that type of development and larger type industries are located in areas more suitable to them. I agree with that concept, but in my area there is an example of a large industry located in a place where there has been no previous industrial experience. It was put there because of the availability of water and the availability of facilities for the disposal of industrial effluent. Without those two factors that industry would not have been located there. As a member of two local bodies in that area, an urban council and a county council, I had the privilege and the advantage of seeing what type of problems arise with regard to this policy of locating such an industry in a rural area. Naturally I have no criticism to make of that decision. I have always been delighted with the decision and when pressure was on with regard to this industry and when certain very critical questions were raised, I always defended this decision to locate the industry there. However, it did cause problems. Those problems are physical and social. The physical problems concern the provision of many basic needs of an industry, water, sewerage, housing and roads. There is general agreement that where the IDA have been successful in attracting an industry the Government and their agencies ensure that the back-up services are provided. I should like to express my gratitude at the speed and efficiency of the Government and State agencies in providing this service for industry.

One message that came home forcibly to me was that a multiplicity of agencies is concerned in the establishment of a major industry. That is as it should be but the people involved in this case, a Japanese firm, were amazed at the number of people they had to consult. At times they felt they were being sent around in circles. The Government were involved because the allocation being made by the IDA was such that Government approval was necessary. The planning authority, the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards, An Foras Forbartha, the Department of Agriculture and other agencies were concerned. While all this may sound very confusing, perplexing and possibly frustrating to industrialists it serves a purpose for us in that we have all the safeguards, and by the time the end result filters through we can be sure it is going to be to our satisfaction. From the experience I have had I suggest that the proposed consortium take on the job of co-ordinating the efforts and the involvement of the agencies I have mentioned. It would save time if we had a committee on which would be represented all these agencies.

The Department of Labour should also be included. Unfortunately, that Department does not come into the reckoning until it is too late in many cases. Deputy Flynn mentioned that in labour relations, governments, in particular the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy, would not stand aside—I suppose he meant to say that they would not stand idly by—while people played games. I presume the Deputy was referring to industrial unrest. It should be remembered that this is not a game; it is a very serious matter. I would be slow to suggest any major change in our attitude to the industrial regulations concerning the unions and so on or the involvement of the Minister because unions fought a hard battle down the years to establish themselves and their rights. If the consortium takes on this job of co-ordinating the work of all the agencies at an early stage in the establishing of the industry the Departments of Labour, Industry, Commerce and Energy and Agriculture should also be involved. We all know that labour unrest is a big problem and it can cause great losses.

When the IDA have done their job in attracting an industry a committee should then take over to co-ordinate the efforts of the agencies involved. In many cases one is dealing with a foreign concern the personnel of which may not be aware of all the nuances involved and the people they must see. Some of them come from countries with a different cultural background to ours and they do not understand our methods. I found, as a public representative, that I was asked to do things completely outside my function. I did them because of the circumstances involved and my anxiety to ensure that the people concerned were satisfied. I was forced into the position of having to go to certain agencies and individuals and explain the problem because the industrialists concerned did not know where to go. There is also a language barrier in many cases and cognisance must be taken of that. A co-ordinating committee would be a great advantage to foreign industrialists.

I should now like to make a point concerning our attitude to industrialisation here from an educational viewpoint. This was brought home to me forcibly when I read an article in the issue of The Sunday Times on Sunday last under the heading “Who wants to Work in a Factory?” The article, about an area in North London, concerned the attitudes of young people to factory work. We have had an academic-orientated educational system here for many years and it is still with us. Parents tend to push their children into areas of academic instruction and education that will lead them to what is known as a permanent position. At one time the civil service was the be all and end all and if one did not get a job there one was in trouble. Lower down on the scale were teaching and nursing and these were the three main areas which absorbed our youth. We now have many more opportunities for employing youth but these opportunities have not been recognised by the major section of our educational system. We are still in a position where the attitude to industrial work is not at all satisfactory. There is a deep-seated antagonism to factory work. Parents tend to inculcate into their children the idea that working in industry is something which has to be avoided at all costs. This is especially so in the west. Because of the harsh environment there, the lack of good land and so on, unless one got a job in the civil service or became a teacher or a nurse the only alternative was emigration. Consequently, the idea was that these were the only avenues open to anybody who wished to stay in the country and earn a living. That sort of attitude still persists today and we must break down the prejudice towards factory work.

While we might pull down our unemployment figures, there is such a thing as job satisfaction and unless we provide employment which gives a level of satisfaction to the individual we are not doing our jobs as administrators. How to break down this prejudice I do not know. But I do know that to visit a factory and have a cup of tea with the personnel manager, while it is part of the window-dressing in the breakdown of this prejudice, is in no way sufficient; it cannot do the job. The holding of seminars concerned with job opportunities in industry is another area that can be exploited, but on its own it will do no good. I should like to see some type of assault on this problem, perhaps by the setting up of a committee of experienced people to co-ordinate the efforts being made. This would involve the Department of Education and the Department of Industry, Commerce and Energy. We have this deep-seated prejudice and antagonism because of historical circumstances and it will not be easy to break down this attitude.

The position with regard to third level education is not satisfactory in that we have third level institutions which are not playing their full part in the area of industry and technology. There are some third level institutions specifically orientated towards that type of activity, but we have not enough of these institutions. One only has to ask the personnel manager of any major factory whether people with highly technical skills are available and he will say that they are not. Yet there are highly qualified people walking the streets of our towns because they cannot get employment. This is part of the malaise springing from our attitude to industrial employment, and we cannot afford the luxury of ignoring this problem. This is a major area of concern, together with the basic problem of providing jobs.

We are dealing with a very sensitive area. People will be engaged in a certain kind of employment for the rest of their lives. Unless they have job satisfaction and are happy in their work they will not give the productivity which is necessary for this country to prosper. Neither will they be what we would regard as good citizens, because they will have a grudge against society and against authority for having given them employment for which they were never meant or for which they have no liking. There is a large area of discontent here and a change of orientation is needed in our efforts to expand industry.

Mr. Leyden

I should like to take this opportunity of offering my congratulations to Deputy O'Malley on his appointment as Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy. I wish him every success in this demanding ministry and I offer my congratulations to his very able Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, who has shown her ability already in introducing the Bill dealing with consumer protection which was recently passed by this House.

I welcome this very important Bill before us which I hope will have a speedy passage through the House. Many of the sections contained in the Bill are long overdue and are badly needed by the IDA to enable them to develop and expand their activities. Many people felt that the IDA already had these powers and were not using them. It is now clear that they did not have these powers and this Bill will enable them to involve themselves more in the promotion and development of industry. They are acting on behalf of the Government to attract industry. This Bill gives them more power and money and the possibility of becoming more involved in industry. The Bill gives them the right to take shares in companies and, with the authority of the Minister, they could become majority shareholders. This is a welcome innovation because the state must play a positive role in the promotion and development of industry.

As a T.D. for two of the most industrially deprived counties, Roscommon and Leitrim, I must record my concern for the future of these two counties. Unless the IDA and other State agencies play a more positive role in the provision of employment in these areas they will not have a future. Since the foundation of the State, both of these counties have suffered from emigration and unemployment. I would ask the Minister to ensure that these deprived areas are given a fair share of the national cake. As the new Deputy for that constituency, it is my duty to ensure that it is not neglected by the Government and the IDA. If I achieve that success during my first term in this House, I will be very happy.

Roscommon has lost 50 per cent of its population since 1901. As a result of being deprived areas, western counties have had major decreases in population. For instance, in 1901 the population was 100,791 and it is now 53,510, according to the 1971 census. That means 56 persons per square mile. It is estimated that more than 22,000 are under 25 years of age and that 82 per cent of the population live outside urban areas compared with a national figure of 48 per cent. I am the youngest of a family of eight and five of my family had to emigrate. My hope is that they will return and that they and members of my constituents' families will not have to emigrate again. I know what it was like when my parents said good-bye to a girl of 16½ who was emigrating to England to start life there as a stranger without a friend. I hope the Government will ensure that emigration will never again reach such proportions.

The IDA have an important role to play in the creation of employment in the west. The decline in population has slowed down in the last few years but sufficient jobs are still not being created to meet the demands. We are fortunate to have the services of active and able development officers in the small industries programme, namely, Tom Lynch in Roscommon, Josie Martin in Leitrim and Tom Moloney in Athlone. These men have given great encouragement to small industries in my constituency. I should like to pay tribute to the late Seamus Duke who was development officer for Roscommon until his untimely death in 1971. He did much work in a short time in order to bring industry to Roscommon, his native county. Many people in County Roscommon owe their jobs to the work of this man.

I recommend, as Deputy Flynn did, that the Minister should consider expanding the role of development officers. They should play a more important role in attracting small industries to deprived areas. They are conscious of the needs of their areas and know the people. If they are given more money they can do more to encourage industries. I know many young men who are prepared to start new industries and they are being advised by the development officers for their areas. The difficult task of these men would be made more difficult if they had to travel to Dublin for advice. Some years ago there was talk of the development officers being phased out. Thank God the Fianna Fáil Party made sure this would not happen. I should like to place on record my support for these people and I would ask the Minister to give them more money in order to create employment.

In Roscommon there is a company that employs 40 people in the production of lime for farmers in the area. Some years ago they were discouraged by the IDA and were told that their business would not be viable. However, they went ahead without any State aid and will expand their business if they are given aid. These men from the Strokestown/Elphin area started quarrying on their own but were discouraged from the start by the Coalition Government, who refused to give them assistance. Senator Keating and his colleagues told them they would not survive but they were proved wrong. By their efforts, the lime is now being used by farmers in Roscommon, Longford and Leitrim and their business has increased by 400 per cent. I would ask the Minister to ensure that this firm and others like it are helped to expand in order to create more employment. We should encourage more people to provide employment in their areas by using native materials. By so doing they will be of benefit to areas into which it is difficult and costly to attract industry.

I believe the Government will give more encouragement to industry. I would ask the IDA to encourage semi-State bodies to expand their activities in areas like Roscommon and Leitrim. In my own area of Roscommon CIE closed a quarry employing ten men some years ago. That quarry was in operation for 45 to 50 years and it produced the best quality stone. As a county councillor I sought to have it reopened. I was told by CIE that it would be opened last spring, but I am still waiting for it. I suggest that in areas like that, where there is such a serious need for employment, State bodies like CIE should be forced to reactivate industries like the quarry I have been speaking about. The quarry was closed down under the previous administration and I will be delighted to bring the news to my constituents that it will be reopened by the present Government.

The development of a milk processing plant in Ballaghadereen, the establishment of factories by the Roscommon Mart with funds from the people —I am a shareholder and so are several farmers—and other such local enterprises give good employment in an area where there has not been employment. Unfortunately the Roscommon Mart undertaking, employing 36 to 40 people, has been closed down by industrial action. I have intervened and I hope the men will be back at work in a week.

I compliment the co-ops on the work they are doing in Roscommon. They play an important role in providing employment. It shows what can be done when people get together. We have bacon and beef factories and I particularly point to the Hanley Brothers' bacon and beef factory in Roosky which provides excellent employment for people from Leitrim and Roscommon. I compliment the IDA on the assistance they have given to that firm who process pigs and cattle produced locally, giving much needed employment. It is a pity that there are not more such local industries processing local produce instead of sending cattle, pigs and sheep on the hoof to England and elsewhere, giving employment there instead of here.

The IDA must look at this situation seriously to ensure that we will get the maximum benefit in Ireland from the produce of farmers. Farmers should be given the maximum prices for their produce, which should be processed and finished here and then exported. This, in turn, would not only create local employment but skilled jobs as well. Irish processed meat is of the highest quality and its reputation abroad is growing.

The removal of tax from co-ops was a very welcome move and I should like to encourage the co-ops to reinvest their savings in their own localities. Any surplus they have should be invested locally to give much needed employment. The Roscommon Mart must be complimented on their investment in Athleague. They did not wait for somebody to come from Belgium or Holland. They initiated a thriving industry with the help of the IDA.

Grave concern has been expressed in Ballyforan in south Roscommon at the recent decision of the Minister, on the advice of the ESB, not to develop a generating station in that area. I request the Minister to reconsider his decision and to ask the ESB to think again about their recommendation, which was based on a cost factor.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

In the context of this Bill, the Minister has no responsibility for the ESB. The Deputy will have an opportunity to raise this matter at some other time.

Mr. Leyden

It affects employment in that area and that is what we are all concerned with. I suggest that the Minister's decision was based on an ESB recommendation which, in turn, was based on inflated figures. The people in that area want to see a generating station built there. There are 16,000 acres of good peat crying out for development in the area, sufficient raw material to establish an 80 megawatt station.

I know the Minister has instructed Bord na Móna to give consideration to setting up a briquette factory in that area. I hope we will have good news for the district. A briquette factory would give much needed employment, would utilise to the maximum the raw material found in the area and would help generally in an area that is gravely hit by unemployment. At the moment it is difficult to get briquettes; I think Bord na Móna are not producing enough. There is the raw material available in the Ballyforan area and there could be much employment in the production of the briquettes. The people of Ballyforan are fighting for employment in their area, a deprived area in south Roscommon. I support them in their struggle. Their fight for the area is my fight. If we could obtain some industry for the district it would reduce the unemployment figure and would give a boost and encouragement to people in that deprived and neglected area of south Roscommon.

Some years ago the fact that the bogs were there was a major drawback to progress and to the development of farming, but since the oil crisis of 1973 the bogs are regarded as a major resource. The IDA should encourage semi-State bodies to set up industries. I should like to compliment Bord na Móna on what they have achieved. No private enterprise undertaking could have set up such a development and I wish to place on record my appreciation of their work. Long may they continue to develop our natural resources. In the Arigna collieries there is a poor quality coal known as "crow" coal. This coal is being studied by the Department of Industry, Commerce and

Energy from the point of view of generating electricity. I hope the studies will be completed quickly and that we will have a generating station in the area. This would give much needed employment in north Roscommon.

The IDA should consider and assess the potential of the greatest waterway in these islands, the Shannon. They should develop this natural resource, having due regard to tourist and environmental considerations. At the moment consideration is being given to setting up a development board for the River Shannon. About a year ago a seminar was held in Athlone by the midland regional development organisation and the general consensus was that the full potential of this waterway should be fully utilised and developed, this giving much needed employment. There is great scope in the entire area for a major industry which could utilise the valuable natural resource of water. I understand that the IDA are seeking about 100 acres of land along the Shannon. I hope they will meet with success in their endeavours to provide employment.

The Department of the Environment must play a role in the provision in Roscommon of the infrastructure required, namely, roads and water and sewerage services. The area has been much neglected in the past decade. Unless the regional water supply scheme for south Roscommon proceeds quickly—I am expecting a decision from the Minister on this matter very shortly—it will be a major drawback. The area is surrounded by the Rivers Shannon and Suck but there is a scarcity of water for drinking purposes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is quite clever in getting in a lot of points that do not arise on this Bill. Matters relating to regional water supplies are not in order in this discussion.

Mr. Leyden

The point I am making is that without water it is difficult to have industries. The provision of water supplies in south Roscommon has been neglected but I shall not deal with that matter any further now because of the ruling by the Chair. The provision of water and sewerage facilities and the improvement of roads are important matters and I hope the services will be developed.

I should like to support the recent call by Leitrim County Council for the development of a timber processing plant in County Leitrim in order to develop the woods, a natural resource of the area. There is great potential to set up a chipboard factory so that the planting that has taken place will be utilised. Leitrim has been badly neglected and it has suffered much unemployment in the past few years.

I should like the Minister or his Parliamentary Secretary to give consideration to the promotion of the "Buy Quality Irish" campaign. There is a need to point out to the people, to the IDA and to the semi-State bodies the desirability of buying quality Irish goods. Recently I went to an hotel that was supported by Gaeltarra Éireann and I found that the sugar on the table was supplied by Tate and Lyle of England. I took some of the cubes of sugar with me and checked on the matter and I have been in communication with the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy and his Department to ensure that this does not happen again. It is a shocking situation that this should happen when we have a factory at Tuam that produces sugar. I realise we cannot stop the importation of commodities under EEC regulations but we can discourage their use. It is quite unacceptable that an hotel in County Donegal that is supported by Gaeltarra Éireann should use sugar from abroad when it can be obtained at home. The Tuam factory is providing much needed employment in the area and possibly it could expand if we could prevent the importation and use of foreign supplies. I mention this instance as just one example of what is happening. We should not be importing agricultural products; we should be producing them and developing the industry. We should be ashamed of a situation where any agricultural products are imported here instead of producing them ourselves and providing employment.

It has been brought to my attention by industrialists in my area that the Industrial Credit Company credits that were given some time ago carry an extremely high rate of interest when compared with the merchant banks and other banks. It is in the region of 13¼ per cent. If this rate was reduced to 9 per cent or 10 per cent it would be a boost for industrialists who are working hard to produce and give much needed employment.

I would also ask him to consider the special employment subsidy which is being granted in England for the textile industry and to ask him to ensure that this special assistance is not continued there. Ireland is inclined to comply with every EEC directive but if they do not suit the English, they will disregard them. They are giving this special employment subsidy which is placing our firms in a very uncompetitive situation with firms producing similar goods in the North and in Britain. One firm in my constituency, Gentex, are hoping the Government will either introduce a special employment subsidy or ensure that the subsidy in England will be abolished so that they will be in a more competitive position. The Minister is aware of this point because he has received a deputation from interested parties and I hope he will introduce some measure to ensure that this situation is resolved. Other industries in my constituency have also been affected. It even affected an industry set up by a former Member which is providing employment for 40 girls in Roscommon town. I compliment the IDA on their work and the provision of a factory in Roscommon town which was taken over by Stainless Steel Products. This firm has gone from strength to strength and employs over 200 people.

A 24,000 square feet advance factory is being built in Roscommon town and I would ask the IDA to ensure that it is filled as soon as it is completed. The advance factory programme has been a spectacular success. Industrialists like to move fast and they find the facility of an advance factory very attractive. The IDA should encourage this and consider providing more advance factories in my constituency.

I would like to give the Minister some idea of the unemployment situation in my constituency. There are 500 people waiting to be employed by Stainless Steel Products. I hope this firm expands and provides employment for them. This factory is giving good employment under good working conditions.

I would like to deal with another point which was raised by Deputy Flynn: the implementation of the Fianna Fáil policy of decentralisation of Government Departments. This was initiated under Fianna Fáil. This may not be directly concerned with the IDA but——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It has no relevance to this Bill. This Minister would have no responsibility for this, and if Deputy Flynn dealt with it he was not in order.

Mr. Leyden

I should like to bring to the attention of the Minister and the IDA an article in The Sunday Times of 9th October, 1977, regarding the Ford engineering plant. This is relevant to the IDA because they are involved in attracting industry here. This plant, which would employ 2,500 people, has gone to Wales. The article which is damaging to the IDA has been undisputed. Some interesting points were brought out in that article which paints rather an unhappy picture of our situation. Perhaps the IDA were not aware of the plans in time to present an attractive offer. Henry Ford II was in Cork on the 15th June and met the then Taoiseach, Deputy Liam Cosgrave. The article said:

"We stayed up till two in the morning discussing life in general but we didn't say anything about the plant," says one Ford man.

The Taoiseach stayed up until two in the morning discussing life in general with Henry Ford II and the plant for Cork was never mentioned. Then somebody realised that there was a possibility that this plant could be attracted to Ireland. The article went on to say:

Not until after that did word reach the Irish Development Agency. Instantly, Lynch ordered an all-out effort...

By the end of July, the Irish had assembled a package worth around £50 million in investment grants— plus the prospect of a tax free holiday for the profits earned by the engine plant until 1990. Their most imaginative proposal, however, was that the construction of the plant should be done by a specially-formed consortium of British firms funded by British taxpayers' money.

I would like that article to be disputed by the IDA. If that is the situation, I reject the idea of this type of incentive whereby English consortiums would be backed by the IDA to attract industry here. Firms told me that they would be prepared, backed by the IDA, to attract industry here and provide the technical knowledge necessary. These firms have told me that they would have been, and are, prepared to provide an Irish consortium and the technical know-how and back-up services necessary to provide as good, if not better, technical information which could have been used in this instance to provide a large plant in Cork and so give a great deal of employment.

I want the IDA to say exactly where they stand on this issue. They are encouraging Irish architectural and engineering firms to set up service industries. We have provided services for Arab countries and other countries throughout the world. I reject the fact that the IDA should work with an English consortium to provide this service for a factory we were trying to attract here. I am gravely disappointed that this plant was not set up in Ireland because it would have given much needed employment in that area.

I wish the Minister and the IDA well in their work. They will play the most important role in the country over the next four to five years. Unless we create jobs so that there will be no need for emigration we will have chaos. We cannot have well-educated people coming on to the labour market each year with no hope, no role, no future. What Deputy O'Toole said about the employment situation in industry here I would say is correct, that prejudices are being broken down.

A number of young people come to me, well-educated, with their leaving certificate, saying they are now prepared to work in industry because they see a future in it; there is little point in having a leaving certificate or so many honours but remaining unemployed. There is honour in work. I agree that industry should be made more attractive, as should the conditions of employment. But we must break down prejudices and I think they are being broken down. I know that many people in my constituency with very good education are prepared to work in industry. By their so doing industry can be improved and expanded because education is no burden to anybody working in industry; educated young people with skill are needed to overcome the obstacles facing industry in the years ahead. People are now queueing up for employment in industry here.

Mr. W. O'Brien

My first duty is to welcome the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy. As a Limerick man I am proud of his appointment and I wish him well.

We all agree that the IDA have been most impressive in the field of job creation. I often wonder if a body such as the IDA was formed in time or rather was it established very late. In the 1940s our unemployment problem was solved by emigration. Our figures at that time could be quite easily swept under the carpet, in Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Coventry. Our Administration at that time never foresaw the day when England or American would find it impossible to continue absorbing our unemployed. On that account we did not plan for the future but rather depended too much on emigration. Our record on employment was not good for many years. In 1973 we went into the EEC on a high percentage poll in comparison with our then population. For that reason our difficulties from then on were very obvious.

I should like to revert to the function of the IDA. I ask the question: are we getting the full value of the amount of money spent in grants? Of course, I am subject to contradiction but grants are paid on job potential rather than on job creation. That being so it is an incentive to foreign industrialists to inflate their job potential. I have never heard of an industrialist who would not inflate the job potential of his industry. While recognising that the IDA must issue grants and incentives on the percentage of the assets of the industry concerned there should be some ceiling or control of grants according to the number of jobs actually realised rather than on the basis of job potential. I have often asked whether or not it could be arranged that the cost of a job be multiplied by the number created. I do not know if that is possible and I hope the Minister will tell me. The final portion of the grant should not be paid for at least two years, thus establishing an incentive to create more jobs in any firm concerned. The more people the firm employ the more money they would receive in the form of grant. It would be only human nature that they would in no way neglect the possibility of increasing the number of jobs.

I should like to refer to the small industries programme. We in Limerick have a deep interest in it because it was Mr. O'Connor, our county manager at one time, who initiated the programme and who was the first regional manager of the IDA there. That programme, as established originally, was to bring attention to bear on industries in rural areas. If we could pursue that policy further we would be doing a good job. We all come across people from time to time who, in a small way, are anxious to start up their own small industry, say, in the field of furniture and so on. However, sometimes, because of overproduction or over-capacity, they are denied a grant. I believe that the smaller firm would create a great incentive and be of tremendous advantage to our people in rural areas. If people could start off in a small way we would have an opportunity of ascertaining whether or not they would make a success in the industrial field. I am quite certain that many people who would have been very efficient industrialists were denied the opportunity of proving their ability because they were denied such a grant.

Debate adjourned.

Business suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m..