Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 13 Dec 1977

Vol. 302 No. 8

Vote 46: Army Pensions.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Molloy)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £250,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1977, for retired pay, pensions, compensation, allowances and gratuities payable under sundry statutes to or in respect of members of the Defence Forces and certain other Military Organisations, etc. and for sundry contributions and expenses in connection therewith; for certain extra-statutory children's allowances and for sundry grants.

The main Estimate for Army Pensions for the year 1977 was for a net sum of £13,020,000. The Supplementary Estimate which I am now introducing is for an additional sum of £250,000. This Supplementary Estimate comprises £303,000 for pensions plus £103,000 for increased grants in respect of free travel, electricity and television licences offset by increased appropriations-in-aid of £22,000 and savings of £134,000. Of the net amount being provided for in this Supplementary Estimate, a sum of £225,000 is required to meet a portion, 3½ per cent, of the general increase in pensions in 1977 for which provision was not made in the original Estimate.

Under subhead D—Military Service Pensions—the additional sum of £54,000 is due to the increased cost of these pensions and to the fact that the savings in respect of deaths are less than was anticipated.

Under subhead E—Defence Forces (Pensions) Schemes 1937 to 1977—an additional sum of £249,000 is required to meet the cost of pensions and gratuities of former members of the Permanent Defence Force. The need for this additional provision was due to the increase in pensions for which provision was not made in the original Estimate and to underestimation in respect of gratuities for non-commissioned officers and privates on discharge.

Under subhead M—Grants in respect of the provision of free travel, electricity and television licences to certain veterans of the War of Independence and so forth—an additional sum of £103,000 is required to meet the increased costs since March, 1977 of the free travel scheme.

Subhead O—Appropriations-in-Aid —£22,000. The increased contributions by officers of the Permanent Defence Force towards the contributory pensions scheme for widows and children are due to increases in the rates of pay.

Mr. Mitchell

We are not opposing the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Treacy

I also support the Supplementary Estimate. Would it not be possible to open up again applications for Old IRA pensions? There must be very few such people left. In our respective constituencies there are people who feel aggrieved that they were not granted Old IRA pensions. The last date for application for such pensions has long since gone and I wonder if the Minister would consider opening the scheme for the few people left who genuinely gave service and who for one reason or another were late in applying.

I should like to comment on the means test for Old IRA special allowances. It is a very niggardly means test. Unfortunately, it has come to our notice that many people in receipt of such allowances, particularly widows of deceased pensioners, were in receipt of portion of their late husbands' pensions and are subject to income tax. I can bring to the Minister's notice shocking cases where income tax was deducted from these miserly allowances. Because of the means test, one must be virtually destitute before qualifying.

On the question of free travel, I presume the same kind of means test applies as to social welfare categories and that the same procedure of having one's official photograph taken by CIE applies. To my mind this is a most degrading system which has caused much humiliation, embarrassment and distress and I ask the Minister, in consultation with the Minister for Social Welfare, to devise a more appropriate method so that if photographs are required they can be taken without causing hardship and humiliation. The Minister will appreciate that the old people concerned are veterans of the War of Independence and that many of them are maimed and blind. However, they are expected to travel long distances to CIE depots to have their photographs taken.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Molloy)

I thank the House for agreeing to the Supplementary Estimate and I will refer briefly to the points made by Deputy Treacy. I am sure he is aware that the Government in 1955 made a decision in regard to applications for Old IRA pensions. I do not think it would be practicable to open up this scheme some 20 years later. I do not know if he was serious in making that suggestion.

Mr. Treacy

Indeed, I was. There are still applications being made to the Minister.

Mr. Molloy

Special allowance applications are received regularly. People who hold the service medal are entitled to apply, and there is a means test. The Deputy referred to this test but he did not make any reference to a specific aspect of it. I do not know if he is aware that old age pensioners are in the main disregarded in the assessment of means for special allowances.

Mr. Treacy

Big deal.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy did not refer to any specific aspect of the means test. I would be happy to send a full copy of the scheme to the Deputy, and then if he liked to comment——

Mr. Treacy

I was asking for an easement of the means test.

Mr. Molloy

The allowance was introduced to meet the needs of holders of the 1917-21, or earlier, medal who are in difficult financial circumstances and unable to provide for themselves. If additional moneys are to be allocated for this purpose it would be better to increase the amount for those who qualify rather than to make any major changes in the method of assessing means. I would agree to an easement if it were possible but it is best to ensure that the money is devoted to those in greatest need, and the means test at least ensures that.

The application of the income tax to widows' incomes would not apply in the case of special allowances, as widows of the recipients of special allowances do not qualify for a widow's allowance.

Under section 340 of the Income Tax Act, 1967, the following are exempt from tax: all wound and disability pensions under the Army Pensions Acts; allowances granted to dependants of persons killed in the 1916 Rising; dependants of signatories of the Proclamation of 1916; dependants of Michael O'Callaghan, George Clancy, Terence MacSwiney and Arthur Griffith. Those are the various exemptions. Military service pensions and other allowances, including allowances payable to widows of military service pensioners, and special allowances are reckonable as income for tax purposes. That has been the position since 1967.

The question was raised about hardship in connection with photographs imposed on persons who qualify for free travel. I will certainly have the matter examined to see if the procedures are as humane as they should be. If there is any question of hardship or distress I would be most anxious to ensure that that would be eliminated and new procedures adopted. I assure the Deputy I will have the matter examined.

Mr. Treacy

I can assure the Minister that there is a great deal of anxiety throughout the country because, in order to have these photographs taken, people must travel long distances.

Mr. Molloy

In the four or five months I have been in office I have not had any representations about this so I had no occasion to examine it. However, if the Deputy feels there is widespread distress, I shall certainly look into it.

Vote put and agreed to.