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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Dec 1977

Vol. 302 No. 9

Adjournment of Dáil: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That the Dáil at its rising this week do adjourn for the Christmas Recess.
—(The Taoiseach.)

I was saying that the purpose of this debate is to take note of the Government's performance during the year just ended. As this Government have been in office but a short time, we are not in a position to pass judgment on the ability of individual Ministers. Last June Fianna Fáil made certain promises and gave an undertaking to the electorate that they would implement those promises immediately on taking office, if elected. During this debate we will refer to these promises and give credit where they have been implemented, although it must be admitted that it is very easy to implement some of those promises and hope trumps will turn up sometime in the future in order to find the money necessary to pay for them. As time goes on the Opposition will have ample opportunity of pointing out the futility of some of those promises, although Fianna Fáil got into power, as they were meant to do.

I believe a number of Fianna Fáil people fought the last general election gladly throwing away promise after promise. Not only were there promises in their manifesto, but we got promises from individual candidates in various constituencies. They readily made these promises because they firmly believed they would not win the election. That is an open secret. They got a great shock when they won. They were celebrating for a long time and some are still celebrating. Many of them have not yet got down to the real thinking and working of Government. Every Government have a honeymoon period, but because of the short time they have been in power it is very difficult for the Opposition to give an analysis of their performance.

The only legislation passed by the Dáil which was not prepared by the previous Government were the two Bills creating the new positions in Government—the Department of Economic Planning and Development and the new positions filled today. I congratulate the three men who have been promoted. I have had the pleasure of working with one of them for a number of years in Dublin County Council, Deputy R. Burke. I wish them well in their new positions. We do not yet know their exact positions but they will be Ministers of State.

As I said, with the exception of these two Bills all the legislation was prepared by the previous Government. Of course, there have been slight alterations but in the main they were all the Coalition's Bills. I do not know how long it takes a Government to settle down but this Government have not yet produced anything we can get our teeth into. We will be anxiously awaiting the next session to see what will be placed before us.

Leave was given by the House this morning to introduce a Bill which Fianna Fáil promised would be passed during this session. Only under pressure from the Opposition did the Taoiseach seek permission to introduce it. When questioned about when it would be circulated, the Minister for Justice did not know. I honestly believe that the first stroke of the pen has not yet been put to the drafting of that legislation. Permission to introduce the Bill abolishing ground rents would not have been sought this morning if pressure had not been exerted by the Labour and Fine Gael Parties.

I believe we are in for a time of stop-go effort with regard to legislation. We have had many announcements since the Government were elected. When Ministers were asked to comment on them, they were rather hesitant, indicating that they were not sure the announcement should have been made, whether the time was ripe or that it was rushed in some way to overshadow something else that might appear in the newspapers. Many people believe that the Taoiseach's speech in Tullamore last week was made in an effort to overshadow other things. While I am not accusing the Taoiseach of deliberately doing that, so many people have said it to me that I feel it is my duty to say it in this House. In other words, the feedback is that many people do not seriously believe what the Taoiseach said or that his heart is in what he is proposing to do with regard to the apprehension of those who are carrying out serious crimes in this State.

One could reflect for some time on the law and order position since this Government came to power. Many people who intend visiting Ireland are taking a serious look at what is happening south of the Border. It is unusual to have half a week without an armed raid. It is not unusual to have three armed raids on a Friday. This is a deplorable situation. It is bringing us back to the situation the National Coalition found when we took office in 1973. The Government are not giving enough attention to this matter. It is apparent that they are not serious about tackling the situation.

Last week I referred to the upward trend in the tourist figures. Many people who were dealing with tourism were heartened by the pleasant news of the turnabout in events with regard to the tourist figures some two or three years ago. Speakers on the other side of the House may point to the great times of the 1960s. Much of this was attributable to the many visitors to Ireland. The troubles in Northern Ireland in 1969 seriously affected the tourist industry and it took many years of hard work to convey to people in other lands who were anxious to visit here that the troubles were almost entirely north of the Border. When they looked like spilling over into the South Bord Fáilte did a splendid job in convincing tourists they were safe in coming here. I am quite sure that the same people in Bord Fáilte are worried about the number of armed raids that have taken place since this Government took office. We have many things to attract tourists but armed raids are no attraction. I would urge the Minister now present in the House to put this point of view to the Cabinet and to urge his Government to take all possible steps to bring to justice those who are carrying out armed raids.

The former Minister for Justice, now Senator Cooney, did much worth-while work. When he took office in 1973 his Department was not in a healthy state. He had to embark on a programme of increasing the strength of the Garda Síochána and this could not be done overnight. He left a healthy Department behind him, one that is geared to handling the situation. The only thing that could prevent that would be a whisper from the politician or from the political head of the Department.

The people have a right to question if that Minister is doing all in his power to ensure that the citizens of this city can go about their daily live in safety, particularly on a Friday. I am not so sure that the Minister is doing all that he can. I should like to ask the Minister for Justice how many districts in the Dublin Metropolitan Area are without district inspectors. I should also like to ask him how often have recommendations come to his desk to fill these vacancies, only to be rejected. How often do these recommendations have to come to him before he accepts them? The people of this city have a right to know the answers to those questions.

It is true that the garda on the beat in Dublin city is more evident than has been the case for 10 years or more but if we do not keep those positions filled we cannot hope to grapple with the situation. We cannot hope to eliminate the dreadful fear of not knowing when we get up on a Friday morning if it is going to be our business premises that will be raided or if it will be our money that will be missing that Friday night. Is the Minister waiting until certain names that might be familiar to him come before him to fill the positions? If that is the case it is to be regretted. For far too long such positions have been filled on political grounds. Any Minister who is not prepared to accept the recommendations put to him should be prepared to give a reason. I will leave it at that. I hope more words on these lines will be spoken in this debate and that the Government will reconsider the situation.

In their election manifesto Fianna Fáil agreed to implement certain proposals. I wish to look briefly at a few of the promises they made and how they handled them. First, there was the promise of the £1,000 grant for a house. This looked extremely attractive to young couples who were considering purchasing new houses. Unfortunately the details were not spelled out. It was described as a help to those purchasing houses, to put an end to the struggle to gather a deposit. Did Fianna Fáil do that? I do not think so. Many of my constituents who have been in their houses for a considerable time and who have all the qualifications have not yet received the grant. It was of no assistance to them in their efforts to gather a deposit although it may be of assistance after they have paid extra money on the loans they must obtain from the bank in the meantime. Fianna Fáil are not giving £1,000 to house purchasers. The people concerned were already entitled to a local government grant and to a supplementary grant in most cases, making a total of between £700 and £800. If they were entitled to an agricultural grant I understand the sum would amount to £900. This great £1,000 hand-out Fianna Fáil promised the electorate has turned out to be £100 in some cases and up to £250 in others.

I want to refer to the Irish Trust Bank affair, if such it can be described. I believe the Government are rather frightened at what they have done in this respect. In the heat of the election campaign an undertaking was given to the depositors in the Irish Trust Bank to refund their money in full. It is worth nothing that in the passage of the Supplementary Estimates in the House here yesterday the Minister for Finance devoted two full pages of a three-page speech to the Irish Trust Bank. Reading that script delivered yesterday one can see how frightened are the Government for having created this precedent because the Minister for Finance went to great lengths to say that this would never happen again.

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but he has three minutes left only.

What guarantee have the Government and the Minister that it will never happen again? Now that Fianna Fáil have shown the way surely it is open to any political party to make a similar promise in the heat of an election campaign. I believe it was a dangerous precedent to establish in relation to people who gamble their money in this way. I might have been one of those who would have placed a deposit in the Irish Trust Bank; I did not; but I am not saying I would not do so in similar circumstances in the future because the interest rate was attractive and I am as much a gambling man as anyone else. I believe it has now left it open for people to place their money where they will get the greatest percentage return in the knowledge that, if pressure is put on, the Government will pick up the tabs if the organisation, bank or whatever, goes bust.

In the few minutes left to me I want to refer to the fiasco last week of the Christmas butter and to say to the Government: if ever we have a handout from the EEC again, for heavens sake, handle it differently. There are shops today who have not yet received their supply of Christmas butter. There are people today who have not used butter for years and who have been unable to get a supply of the Christmas butter while others who never use anything else on their bread now have a stock of it in their deep freezers. I never want to see a scheme which could be of benefit to our people carried out in that manner again. I know it is not an easy undertaking. If one were to distribute it evenly amongst the entire population I suppose it would necessitate the issuing of cards of some description. I am not asking that that be done. I do not think anybody would object if this butter had been confined to old age pensioners or recipients of social insurance or social welfare benefits.

The Deputy has less than one minute left.

The Minister for the Environment made an unwarranted attack on Dublin County Council in this House last evening. I regret that I have one minute only to reply to him. It was grossly unfair of a Minister to attack a local authority in the way he did here last evening. I would ask him to reflect on the work being done by that local authority today with its 25 members, the same number as they had as far back as 1948. Dublin County Council spend, I suppose, £1 million a week. The amount of work being done by the local authority—I could cite figures if time allowed——

I am afraid I must call the next speaker.

I shall leave it at that. I shall have a further opportunity of replying to the Minister's remarks about Dublin County Council last evening.

There are a number of issues on which a Minister for Foreign Affairs might be expected to comment in a debate of this nature. Nevertheless the House will appreciate that, in the time available to me, it will not be possible for me to go into great detail in relation to many of them.

I should like to reply to some points made and give an outline of how the activities of my Department fit into the overall policy of the Government for economic development, which might be helpful at this time. In the first instance I might refer to some comments of the Leader of Fine Gael on the Taoiseach's report to the House yesterday on the European Council meeting—just for clarification—in view of the fact that some of the comments or questions of the Leader of Fine Gael were based on misunderstandings as to what was discussed at that Council meeting. It is clear that the function of the European Council on that occasion, as on many others, was to analyse general economic progress, or lack of it, within the European Economic Community, to see what measures would be necessary to strengthen the commitment of the Community and of the partners within it to achieving the stated aims of the Community. For that reason two matters particularly arose for discussion.

In the course of the debate on general economic conditions within the EEC the question of the Commission's proposals on economic and monetary union arose. I want to say—perhaps the Taoiseach may have felt too modest to say so himself—that the Taoiseach made it very clear indeed that, in his analysis of the EEC since he last attended what was then a Summit meeting in Paris in 1972, the Community had not, for one reason or another, moved consistently along the lines of the Community's own aims; that it had been unable to eliminate the level of imbalance and, for that reason, any steps towards economic and monetary union had been less than effective. In that context the Taoiseach pointed out also the obligation on the Community—he clearly reiterated this —to redefine and commit themselves henceforth to achieving those aims.

I was struck particularly by one point made by the Leader of the Fine Gael Party in the course of his contribution yesterday. When speaking of the Community he said it was a mistake to agree to the freeing of trade first, this in terms of the development of the European Economic Community itself. I want to say to the Leader of the Fine Gael Party that if that is a mistake now—and perhaps it is—it was even more a mistake four years ago and perhaps even more a mistake when the Community was established. The basis of the Community—as he and I well know—in the first instance was a free trade area, the European Common Market. Almost two decades after its establishment it is a bit late to say it was a mistake. Perhaps it was. What this Government are determined consistently to point out—as the Taoiseach said at the European Council Meeting in more than one intervention—is that this freeing of trade, now a characteristic of the Community, confers certain advantages on the centre.

I have myself at home and within the Council consistently repeated this. Sometimes the gap widens rather than narrows between the centre and the periphery, and to maintain the present gap the Community would be obliged and committed to applying greater resources to the regional and social funds and to elements of regional policy. The Community must go much further and therefore the Taoiseach rightly approached the Council on the terms set out by the Community itself. It is significant that in his contribution—and there was a very definite response to this and to the disciplines involved for the Community by and large in realising the stated aims of the Community to relieve imbalances and bring about a move towards economic and monetary union—the Taoiseach could say that this Government will move towards economic plans and projections and this was something his predecessor was not in a position to say to the Council over the last four years. If one goes to the Council of Ministers asking for disciplines and commitments one is not prepared oneself to implement then one will be less than effective and persuasive in looking for a response. The Taoiseach took the initiative in asking that they insist on these disciplines in relation to the control of inflation and in relation to programmes designed to provide effective employment, particularly for young people, so that that would be a special commitment of the Community as it is for us at home.

I agree with the Leader of Fine Gael, as does the Taoiseach, that the Community has not been at all times consistent in these aims; but it is a little strange to imply that there is any fault due to this Government because of what the Community has not achieved over the last four years. We have consistently at Community level and at Council of Ministers level highlighted these factors and the Commission has placed on record, and this is again significant, the degree of support and security they found in the consistent position we have taken— I can speak only for our time in Government—in supporting them in their aims towards eliminating regional imbalances with a view to eventually bringing about a degree of co-ordination towards economic and monetary union. That is the fact.

It will be our consistent policy in the years ahead to strengthen the Commission and give it the iron will to proceed along the lines of its own stated policies consistent with the Treaty of Rome and consistent with the Treaty of Accession we signed in early 1972. Our Community partners recognise that even though we are a small country we have a vital role to play, not as vital a role as a major country or a major economic unit in the Community but nevertheless a vital role. Why should that be so? First, because the major economic countries benefit from the freeing of trade and also because of the impression the Community creates both within and without of the kind of concern we have for the needs of the present and potential of the future. The young people of the Community must identify in that Community a degree of social concern which is not limited to the boundaries of any one country but which is a constant and consistent element in Community policy. To the extent that it is lacking, and it is lacking from time to time, it will be my constant purpose and that of my colleagues to keep reminding the Community that it cannot go half-way towards what was originaly intended, namely, a free trade area, an area which obviously confers advantages on central areas as distinct from peripheral areas, and that it must fulfil its obligations both within and without.

Small countries such as Ireland for historic and other reasons have a great deal to contribute to the attitude other countries will have towards the Community. We have a goodwill—no credit, perhaps, to the present generation but, so long as we respect that goodwill, we share some of the credit —in the African, Asian and South American States which are coming into independence and developing their economies. We can exploit that goodwill to our own advantage through the various bilateral and multilateral agreements. More importantly, we can use that goodwill to the advantage of the Community, not for all of which have the developing countries the same degree of admiration they have for our country. It is well then that the major countries in the Community should recognise that a small country like ours has a very important contribution to make because of its historical past and because of the manner in which it can bring about a closer liaison between Africa and Europe, South America and Europe and the Far East and Europe. That is the role we shall be highlighting, because membership of the Community cannot be balanced in terms of gains or losses. As a Community it must be more accurately assessed in terms of the total contribution and I believe our political goodwill is a very major contribution and one we are not in any way reluctant to remind some of our Community partners about.

The Leader of Fine Gael also referred to the question of enlargement. Here he was under a misapprehension in thinking this was discussed at the European Council. It was not and so the Taoiseach could not refer to it in reporting to the House. It was discussed at the Council of Ministers on more than one occasion and I have consistently stated that a precondition for the Community itself—and this has now been adopted formally and is in a sense a return to what was previously adopted but in somewhat better terms—is that it will provide adequate resources within the Community and make available the necessary resources in the context of enlargement as, otherwise, it will not be anything in the nature of the Community we joined or anything in the nature of what many of the member states would wish to present it as being. This is not a precondition for Greece, Spain or Portugal. It is a precondition for the Community on its own terms and both the President of the Council of Foreign Ministers at the moment and the present Commission have adopted this formula in the latest statement from the Council of Ministers. Therefore the Leader of Fine Gael need not in any way be concerned because this was not referred to by the Taoiseach. We have consistently not only followed the line suggested but even gone a step further in proposing the obligation on the Community itself.

I have said before that political commitments are not enough. They are too easy, too illusory and too dangerous. Political commitments must be matched with economic performance. Let us be realistic, factual and honest. If there is a political commitment let us see evidence of the economic commitment to back up the political commitment; otherwise we will be doing a disservice not only to the existing Community but to the wider Europe.

It was a matter of great satisfaction to the Taoiseach and to me to hear the President of the Republic of France, the Chancellor of West Germany, the Prime Minister of Britain and others spontaneously and genuinely thank the Taoiseach and his advisers for the formula which enabled the contributions to the next two years' budget to be adopted in the first stage of the second day's discussions when on the previous evening no such expectations seemed feasible. From our point of view this means that the extra contribution over and above the minimum contribution, namely, the Commission's interpretation of Article 131, will be of little or no account. The total extra contribution will be less than £4 million in two years. The payments to us from the regional fund, the social and the other funds of the Community will be paid in the new European unit of account, and the proposal by the Taoiseach which was eventually adopted will mean a net gain to us in that area alone over the next few years. We were able to get that gain for ourselves in the context of Community support and we were able to win what was noted as being a political decision from the European Council, which is something that the Council of Foreign Ministers were not able to bring about. It was a contribution not just to ourselves but to the political co-operation which must be an essential element of any meeting of heads of State in the European Community.

In relation to the regional fund it is obvious from what I said earlier and from what the Taoiseach said at the European Council, that what we sought in terms of the commitment of the Council was much clearer evidence of their determination to apply the resources of the Community to enable peripheral areas to develop on an even keel with the central areas, to such an extent that it touched the reactions of some of the other heads of Government who apparently had not been reminded of this consistently over the last number of years. It is fair to say that the Leader of the Fine Gael Party acknowledges that the regional fund as it stands is a significant increase in real terms of perhaps 50 per cent over the next three years from what it was over the last three years. This is an indication that some forward move is being made. It is not enough, but some move is being made.

The increase is significant, although it is not as much as will be required. The Leader of the Fine Gael Party suggested that the increase should be bigger, but I am sure he recognises some of the realities of trying to get this increase. The Taoiseach was more successful than any other negotiator on our behalf despite the great expectations we had in 1973 or 1974 when this House was left with the impression from visits of my predecessor to Germany, France and Rome, that they were all coming around to our view. I recall that the results were very different from the expectations raised. The reality now is better than then, but we must not sit back in complacent satisfaction. We must recognise that it is a step forward that must be enlarged to ensure that we can realise our own programmes within the Community. It depends to a very large extent on our performance. We must rely on our own programmes and on the Community to support those programmes, to implement real economic development here. I have no doubt that the manner in which the Government will apply the increased resources from the regional fund in the next few years will prove that they will be applied effectively to ensure continuing economic expansion in the areas of greatest need.

The Leader of the Fine Gael Party referred to cross-Border projects. During my visit to Belfast yesterday I got the impression that it is appreciated by both the British Government and the people of Northern Ireland that this Government are very much committed to the development of cross-Border projects to the extent that I was asked on occasions how was it that our predecessors did not seem to be pursuing this so urgently. It is very evident from the first talks the Taoiseach had with Prime Minister Callaghan, from discussions which our officials had with officials of the Foreign Office and of the Northern Ireland Office over the last few months, and it will be even more evident from the Ministerial meetings which will follow up as soon as the first stage of the official discussions have terminated, that this is a commitment between both Governments.

It is a way of working together to discharge a common obligation. More than that, it is a first stage which will subsequently be followed up by the appropriate assistance from the European Community. I think I was the first Foreign Minister of this country to bring this matter up formally before the Council of Ministers. The response I got was quite positive and I am sure that at the appropriate time—because they have now been put on clear notice of it—the frontier regions within this country will get adequate support from the regional fund or any other fund resources available. So far we are reasonably satisfied with the response we have got from the British Government regarding the areas we have mentioned as being appropriate for further studies and we will follow up on that basis.

The question of representation at Summits is important. We recognise that this Community must be represented as a Community and not merely by the major powers within the Community. This matter has now been resolved after four years. It was resolved at the meeting of Foreign Ministers in Belgium, when I, in conjunction with representatives of smaller countries, managed to get at long last a commitment from the major powers of the Community that hence-forth the Community will be represented by the President of the Commission and by the President in office of the Council whether he belongs to a large or small country. Already within the European Community we are ensuring that the Community are staying on the rails of their own direction, at least as originally set. The outcome of the various negotiations in which we have been involved at European Council level, Foreign Minister level, agricultural level or otherwise is significant.

Finally in that connection, the matter of the MCAs was raised also. I find it interesting that these matters have been raised now. For the first time there is from the European Council a commitment to tackle urgently this problem of abolishing the MCAs which have distorted trade in agriculture over the last number of years. This commitment has now been adopted by the Council and has been referred back to experts who will report back to the next Council on the progress made and the manner in which this can be done as speedily and as effectively as possible. No such decision was taken by any previous Council. The approach of the Taoiseach and the Government to all of this is that wherever there is distortion and unfair competition we have highlighted it and have succeeded now in getting commitments. It is not the end of the road; it is a long, slow process. Also, where our own interest is concerned we have been able to ensure that the outturn has been as good as anything that emerged before this.

The Minister has about four minutes.

On the question of our diplomatic representation generally there are two approaches to diplomatic representation, not to be distinguished one from the other but from which to judge the significance of our association. Obviously for a small country this means firstly the trade and economic consequences of diplomatic association and secondly the political consequences. In terms of trade and economic consequences it has been evident that some of the associations we have established over the last few years, particularly with some of the state trading companies of Eastern Europe, have not been as beneficial from our point of view as we would have wished them to be. It is fairly evident from statements made by my colleagues in Government, particularly the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy, that this is a matter for concern for the Government. This is a matter that I have discussed with the Ambassadors of the countries concerned. We have indicated to them that to develop the relationship—in the best and fullest possible sense of the word—with a country, to bring about new understandings, closer relationship and better co-operation, you must do that on the basis of a reasonable balance of trade and trading opportunity. I say with some degree of confidence that the imbalance we have seen over the last number of years will be corrected as almost a condition of our developing relationship, which we are all very anxious to promote, irrespective of ideological differences that exist between us.

Has the Minister received any commitments in that matter?

Only this very day, I am glad to tell Deputy Bruton, in discussions with the new Ambassador from Czechoslovakia, who presented his credentials to President Hillery this morning, I got from him a commitment to ensure that the imbalance which exists between Czechoslovakia and ourselves would be narrowed to ensure trading outlets for us. Ours is an open economy and we are not concerned with stopping imports into Ireland. What we are concerned about is guaranteeing outlets for our exports and I am satisfied that we will see a big improvement here. If we are not happy with what will emerge we will be ready to point out to them that this is not the way to promote proper and effective relationships.

My Department in this do not in any way clash with Córas Tráchtála, who obviously have the major function, but make the original political introduction, particularly when dealing with state trading companies with whom we have to deal Government to Government. We work in close liaison with Córas Tráchtála. One of my first priorities since coming to office has been to ensure that that element of our diplomatic representation, namely creating the proper political climate for the development of further trading relations, would be effective. I am satisfied that in the development of our diplomatic associations, and particularly in the opening of new embassies, the Government will take a very consistent and very comprehensive view, not just reacting to what may or may not be a request for new relationships from other countries, but we will over the next number of years determine what is in our political and economic interest. The House can judge from the performance which will emerge over the next few years to what extent we will be consistent.

This is a limited time debate——

The Deputy has half-an-hour.

——and because of that great care is taken to fit in the time to be taken by the various speakers. Therefore I was rather surprised to find that you, Sir, departed from all procedure and called a Government speaker after a Fine Gael speaker.

Sorry, Deputy Tully, I followed completely the precedent of this House on a time limited debate. One is called from the Government, one from the Opposition in that order. The Chair must take into account the division of opinion in the House. There are 82 Members on my left.

I had nothing to do with it.

There are 61 on my right.

If a Deputy asked to speak you would in turn have to call him.

The Chair has the right to call the speakers as he thinks fit. The Chair has been extremely fair to both sides. We are calling one from each side.

Has the Chair the right to depart from procedure? Could I remind the Chair of the Adjournment Debate of 1971? If he checks on that he will find the procedure.

I ask the Deputies to look at the position as I see it. There will be 12 speakers called from the Opposition in this debate. There will be ten, or at most 11, from the Government side. There are 82 Deputies on one side and 61 on the other.

It is a departure.

It is not a departure.

I do not want to waste any more time.

There is no use in arguing with the Chair. There is no departure from precedent in this House. Over the past four or five years it has been one speaker from the Government and one from the Opposition.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Tully on the motion before the House.

The Chair has been deliberately selective. When there is one Opposition party and a Government——

Surely Deputies do not want the Chair to call two as against one, one from 82 Deputies and two from 61 Deputies. At least be fair to the Chair.

Is the Deputy trying——

I have no objection.

Do not argue with the Chair, please. Deputy Tully is in possession.

Could I ask the Chair to explain to the House his departure from procedure adopted under similar circumstances in the Adjournment Debate of 1971?

We are not departing from procedure. The Chair is responsible for calling Deputies and the Chair must call them in accordance with the division of opinion in the House. There are 82 Deputies on my left and 61 on my right. Surely nobody can argue with the Chair for calling one from the Government side and one from the Opposition.

Sir, I will not argue with the Chair and I did not mind waiting an extra half hour listening to Deputy O'Kennedy. I have always gone by the Standing Orders of this House. I propose to go by them this evening and I wish everybody else would do the same.

Deputy Tully has 30 minutes from now in which to speak, if he could start, please.

I should like to compliment the three men who were promoted today. I am particularly pleased for Deputy Burke because the Burke family have a long association with politics. Deputy Burke's father was a well-liked member of this House and I am sure he is happy that his son has become a junior Minister.

We often talk about Moses coming down from the mountain with a tablet of stone. Somebody came out of a think-tank with the Fianna Fáil manifesto and that is why it has turned out to be wet. It was the first time Fianna Fáil put anything down in writing. Because there was so much in the manifesto, people glanced through it and read what they wanted to read out of it. The result is that we have had some remarkable interpretations. The manifesto had the effect of changing the Government. Unlike some people who believe they had no right to do wrong, I believe the people had the right to change the Government and they did so in no uncertain terms.

So far, what have we got from the Government? We have a change of names of Departments. Some of the changes are appropriate and some of them are awkward. For the life of me, I cannot see how the Department I served for four-and-a-half years can benefit from being renamed the Department of the Environment. I could understand the change if there was pressure for it, but change for the sake of change is ridiculous. To make matters worse, everything connected with the Department had to be changed and that was a fairly expensive job.

Since their defeat in 1973 the Fianna Fáil Party set out to return to power. They worked very hard at it and good luck to them, but they were completely unscrupulous. Up to May of this year the charge was made in this House again and again that the correct figure for unemployment was 185,000 instead of nearly 110,000. The two people who used that figure regularly were the Taoiseach and the Minister for Labour. A few weeks ago I was amused at the Taoiseach being asked the current unemployment figure. He did not know the answer then but he knew it last May. I would quarrel with the figure of 185,000. If it is correct, then we must surely have passed the 200,000 mark by now because this year's school leavers must be added to it.

One of the main problems we have had under Fianna Fáil, and for a period under the National Coalition, was the introduction of capital-intensive industry. When a new industry was started or an existing one improved, the industry became more efficient and this resulted in the loss of many jobs. The new Government should look at this matter very closely. Fianna Fáil said they were going to remove the dole queues. I remember the Taoiseach being very sure of himself in regard to the number of people who would be employed after Fianna Fáil returned to power. During the interview he was asked, "When do you intend to reduce the dole queues?", and his quick reply was, "Immediately we take office". The Taoiseach has now been in office for six months and he has not done it. A lady member of Fianna Fáil appeared on television the same night and she was abusive. She talked about the right to work and that this lot— she was referring to the National Coalition—were keeping people out of jobs. She succeeded in getting a seat in this House but the people are still being deprived of the national right to which she referred.

Today I listened to Deputy O'Kennedy talking about the EEC, how things were to be done and the great Europeans we are. When I consider the number of people who are unemployed in the member states it makes me wonder whether we should copy the EEC in regard to running our economy.

Before they came into power, Fianna Fáil had an answer to the problem of school leavers. They were very noisy in this House about the rights of school leavers. I remember answering a question on behalf of the Minister for Labour on the number of last year's school leavers that had been employed. It turned out only 7 per cent of them were still seeking work at that time. A Deputy who is now a junior Minister asked me if many of them had taken jobs for which they were not trained. I would ask the Minister who is present to find out from his colleagues if they are going to supply jobs for which people have been trained to the school leavers who are at present seeking jobs. I know the answer. Little if anything has been done for those people. I am afraid they will have to live on the pre-election promises of Fianna Fáil.

Fianna Fáil were very definite about prices before the election. They said they would make efforts to ensure that prices would not increase. When he was in Opposition the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy was adamant about prices but they are still increasing. The only difference between now and when we were in office is that price increases were headlined by the media. For some extraordinary reason price increases are not being headlined now.

Recently, there was a substantial increase of £5 per ton in the price of coal and it was difficult to find a report of it in the newspapers. Recently, three price increases were announced on the radio. On the same day I got a copy of the prices report which had been approved by the Minister and discovered that there had been 43 price increases. Now where did the other 40 go to? Fianna Fáil are very good at covering up; they seem to be able to ensure that people are not made aware of price increases. Ask any housewife, particularly in Dublin, and she will tell you whether she is satisfied with Fianna Fáil's performance in regard to their promises. The only time you will find out about price increases is when you are paying for goods at the supermarket check-out. Incidentally, a regulation was passed that the prices of certain commodities should be displayed in shop windows in such a way that they could be easily read by people before they enter the shop. I do not see many of them now. I believe there is a shop in town where a very patriotic gentleman has the prices in Irish. I am sure it is in the interests of the Irish language that he has the prices in Irish in the window but there is no English version and since most people in the city only read English, the Irish version is not much use to them.

Reference was made to the question of the Christmas butter. Some years ago when an amount of butter was being made available at a reduced price we decided that it should be given to social welfare recipients. I should like to know why the Government did not decide to do the same thing. If ever there was a scandal the distribution of the Christmas butter was one because not alone has it not been delivered to some of the small shops but some of the supermarkets appear to have more than they can get rid of. Some of them even made it a condition that a customer had to buy £5 worth of goods before he got a coupon entitling him to 1 lb. of Christmas butter. Where would the old age pensioner, the widow or the unemployed man or woman fit into that scheme? Like everything else the Government have put their hands to so far, they have made a mess of the distribution of that butter. The Minister concerned should see to it that this does not happen again.

In the course of his speech the Taoiseach made a short reference to the new Department of the Environment and to housing. He also referred to the building industry and the tremendous improvements being made. I suggest that there has not been a tremendous improvement in the building industry and, as far as housing is concerned, I regret to state that we will not be able to have the annual 25,000 house-average which we had over the last four years. That is no fault of mine. During my period in office I made a provision that an allocation for local authority houses be given to local authorities early in the year and when the progress was well known a further allocation be given. I do not know what the general position is but I am aware that in my constituency, County Meath, only one allocation was given, the first one. They have not been given the second one. More than £1 million has not been paid. Has that happened elsewhere or was that specially reserved for one constituency?

With regard to the number of new houses, I am afraid we will find that the number will drop considerably. People engaged in the business of house building and selling houses have told me that there is a slump in the market. I am aware that the Government decided to increase the amount of money which a local authority could lend for the purpose of building houses but I am not aware that this has made a big improvement, because with present interest rates on SDA loans it is not very attractive. I am glad the building societies were able to produce a tremendous amount of money and that they are getting the support they should get from the Government, as they received from the last Government. I regret that those who will be borrowing money through the SDA loan scheme will not have much joy. I wish now to refer to the change in housing grants. We would all love to see grants given to everybody anxious to build a house, particularly those in need. I remember a case being made in the House that enough money was not being given and that people engaged in agriculture could get £900. It was stated that it did not matter whether they originally owned a hovel or not: they got the £900 if they decided to build a house. The Minister was asked some time ago whether those people would qualify and he said he would make arrangements to have them included as if they did not previously own a house. I understand that arrangement has not yet been made. Anybody who owns a house, not alone in this country but—according to the form issued by the Department—anywhere in the world, or if their spouse owns a house anywhere in the world, will not qualify for the £1,000 grant.

I asked the Minister yesterday the number of people in County Meath who had qualified. I was told there were 580 applicants and that one person had qualified. I was told also that so far it had not been found possible to pay him. At that rate the first £1,000 will go a long way because if the Government cannot pay one grant in six months in a county where a lot of houses are being built it does not say much for the counties where fewer houses are built. The reconstruction grants should have been increased. I said before that I would like to see them increased and I hope my successor will do so, because we must preserve existing housing stock at all costs. I understand the Minister will be going around in the near future opening a number of beautiful housing schemes and the best of luck to him. However, he will not have to do as I had when I started opening schemes erected under Fianna Fáil, carry a notebook to take complaints from the tenants who were only a few weeks in the houses. They complained that roofs were leaking, that walls were crooked, floors broken, windows were not fitting and about absence of heating. The houses the Minister will open are fit for working class people to live in. I hope that, no matter what economies the Government decide to make, they will not make an economy on the standard of house building. We do not want any more of the type of houses built under the last Fianna Fáil Government.

I should now like to deal with the question of rents of local authority houses and the sale price. I understand that in the Dublin South-West Constituency during the election campaign a special election manifesto was issued to the effect that those who bought local authority houses before 1973 and paid cash for them would get a refund of one-quarter of the money if Fianna Fáil were returned to office. When this matter was raised in the House by a Fine Gael Deputy some weeks ago the Minister said Fianna Fáil had no responsibility for that document. From that I assume that Fianna Fáil can be all things to all men. If it suits in one place they can say it and then the party can say it has no responsibility for it even though there is a Deputy from the area in the House as a result of that manifesto. The rents of local authority houses are up for review. Last year a deliberate attempt was made by a Deputy, now a member of the Government, to cause as much trouble as he could on a local authority because the local authority had not notified tenants of an increase in the rents. A substantial amount was due in arrears. Even when I compromised and gave them exceptional terms —not given anywhere else—so that the burden would not be too heavy on them, that Deputy kept up his agitation and did his best to cause trouble. Although that rent review was due in July it had not been completed. I understand that NATO have not been able to meet the Minister to date. I believe there is a possibility that the Minister will meet them today and I hope he treats them as the responsible body they are. When I took over in the Department of Local Government there was a two-year-old rent strike on hands and I had to settle it.

I hope my successor will not be foolish enough to create or cause a further rent strike, something he can do pretty quickly if he starts dealing unfairly with the decent people who live in those houses. Those people living in houses built before our time have a lot of real complaints.

Since this Government took office there has been a dramatic increase in the number of road accidents. I cannot blame the Government for that, but I want the Minister to do everything possible to get back to the situation which prevailed in the last three years of my term when the number of people being killed and injured on our roads was dropping annually. I do not know why the position has changed. It should not happen and those who drive recklessly should be condemned. I do not think it was a good idea to suspend the test for those alleged to be driving while drunk. If there is a mistake in the test it should be remedied. Any loophole should be fixed up and the test put back in operation. Drunken driving causes many road accidents. Nobody who is drunk ever gets killed. We are too polite to say he was drunk if he happened to be killed but if he kills somebody else it is different.

Yesterday the Minister made an announcement about rates on local authority houses. A great deal of publicity was given to the fact that the Minister and the Government had decided local authority tenants would be treated the same as any other householder so far as rates are concerned. Why would they not be? When we took 25 per cent off the rates this year, we took it off the rates of local authority house tenants. Why should they be treated any differently from anybody else? Why should there be a song and dance about this, or is it an effort to say that because they will have a reduction in their outlay under that heading they cannot complain if rents go up as a result?

I am sorry the Minister for Foreign Affairs has left the House because I wanted to say something to him. He lectured us on how well he is getting on in Europe and the great respect being shown to his Government. Great respect was shown to the previous Government. Our Minister for Foreign Affairs did not belong to our party, but I would say that perhaps he was the best Minister for Foreign Affairs we ever had. I am not surprised to hear the present Minister for Foreign Affairs saying he is being welcomed with open arms in Europe. He was the adviser to the IFO and he told them that of course they were entitled to hold out for a 50-mile limit. They were not to mind what the Coalition Government were talking about, they were entitled to a 50-mile limit and they would have to get it. I wonder is that being mentioned in Europe now?

That is not the line adopted by the Minister for Fisheries when he steps from one foot onto the other and decides what he wants to say. Apparently he says one thing and, if it does not suit his listeners, he changes to something else very quickly. Of course, that would be no problem to the Minister.

The Minister for Education appears to be working very hard. Like his predecessor he is meeting with many difficulties. In the short time available to me I have one or two cribs to which I should like to refer. I should like to know why the Department, under the new Minister, decided to change the decision on the building of a technical school in Navan. The building of this school which had been decided on by his predecessor has now been cancelled and it has been decided to improve or increase the size of the existing school, although it had been agreed by the Department that the siting of the existing school was a traffic hazard. Perhaps somebody might answer that one.

I should also like to know why the Minister has reduced the amount of money being given by way of State grant to a school in my parish of St. Mary in Drogheda. I should also like to know, when he was increasing the grant to students, why he did not consider it necessary to increase the income limit of those eligible for the grant. I have had numerous complaints from people. One person's daughter would be eligible but for the fact that she has £355 per annum as a librarian in a local branch library. This amount put her £5 over the limit. The amount her daughter would get would be nearly double the amount she is earning as a part-time branch libarian.

On the question of social welfare, I remember the Minister for Economic Planning and Development stating early this year that one of the ways he felt the Fianna Fáil Government could reduce expenditure was that £30 million could be taken off social welfare. I put down a question on this matter. A number of people have been working for years in Butlins Holiday Camp near where I live. One woman who worked there for 29 years and another woman with 17 children whose husband died have been refused unemployment benefit on the ground that they work on a seasonal basis only. When I tried to get further information from the Minister, he made some reference to their economic circumstances. That was the first time I knew there was a means test for social welfare disability or unemployment benefit.

Once you stamp a card either you are entitled to benefit or you are not. Your economic circumstances do not come into it. This is happening. Some of my colleagues tell me the same racket is being worked throughout the country. Similarly, many people, particularly women, who have been drawing disability benefit for a number of years now find themselves debarred from benefit. They are brought in and examined and told they are not unfit for work. If this is the way in which Fianna Fáil are to give parity to women on social welfare as they claimed in their election manifesto, it is a damned peculiar way of doing it.

On the question of the number of jobs created by Fianna Fáil, the health services have been quoted. I was very interested last week to hear the Minister for Health stating honestly in the House, as I would expect him to do, that Fianna Fáil had not paid for any of the jobs which had been created. They were included in the budget and provision had been made for them in the existing arrangements. All Fianna Fáil had done was to continue with the arrangements to give these additional jobs. Quite a substantial amount of money was made available in this year's budget for job creation. With it, we expected to bring down the unemployment figure to under 100,000 before the end of the year. Unfortunately, Fianna Fáil have not succeeded in doing this. They got it down to about 105,000 and now it is climbing back up again. I am sure that before very long it will be back to where it started.

We hear a lot of talk about wage negotiations. Everybody is an expert on this matter. I have been a trade union official for almost 30 years and, while I do not agree with unofficial strikes or with the decision sometimes taken to honour an unofficial strike picket—that is wrong—at the same time I believe there has been too much messing with trade union negotiations. If the Government think they can get away with 5 per cent next year they will have to have their heads examined collectively or individually. There is not a hope in the world of getting away with it, because it does not represent a reasonable amount.

There is another issue we must remember. We hear a lot of talk about competitiveness with other European countries. Wages in most European countries are very much higher than they are here. If we can get production up to the right level, we should be able to compete very well with European countries. The big trouble for this Government, as it was for the previous Government and Governments down the years, is that they do not want to admit the rate of pay given to the civil service, which must be paid directly out of State funds, is causing all the difficulty. Why do they not come out in the open and say that? I was amazed to hear even the Taoiseach talking about an average wage. A couple of weeks ago the Minister for Economic Planning and Development talked about an average wage of £78 a week. The Taoiseach mentioned a figure of £80 a week. The majority of workers are in the lower paid category. They earn between £40 and £50 a week and they must make do with that.

The Government must tighten up security. They must change the system whereby people go before the courts, and the courts know they are guilty of a crime, but they can walk out free because an "i" was not dotted or a "t" not crossed. The Garda are doing a good job and they must get support. The additional gardaí now on duty were included in a scheme prepared and put into operation by the previous Government.

On a point of order, I understand you have ruled that the normal system of rotation adopted previously between speakers should be departed from. I have examined——

I am sorry to interrupt Deputy FitzGerald. This matter was raised about 30 minutes ago. The Chair gave a decision on it. The Chair is not prepared to argue with anybody about it. I have called Deputy Woods.

On a point of order, there is no reason——

I am not prepared to argue any further on this point. The Chair has given a ruling on it. That ruling stands. Deputy Woods.

I am entitled to be heard on a point of order.

This was raised on a point of order already. A decision has been given by the Chair and, if Deputy FitzGerald does not like that decision, there is another course of action he can take.

It was not raised on a point of order.

It was raised by two Deputies.

Deputy Tully raised it in his contribution.

Deputy Bruton should not argue with the Chair.

I was here at the time.

Deputy Woods. Deputy FitzGerald should know that I have given a ruling on it. He should not come in at this stage to try to question the rulings of the Chair. That should not be done, and nobody knows that better than Deputy FitzGerald. Deputy Woods is in possession.

(Interruptions.)

On a point of order——

The point of order has already been dealt with.

It has not.

Deputy Bruton, please. Deputy Woods is in possession. I am asking Deputy FitzGerald to resume his seat because the decision has already been given on the question.

As Leader of the Opposition I am entitled to be heard on a point of order. I would ask you to hear me, Sir.

I am sorry, Deputy FitzGerald, but not on something that has already been decided. There is precedent down the years——

There is no precedent down through the years.

Deputy Woods is in possession.

Through the last two Dáils——

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Woods is in possession. Would Deputy FitzGerald resume his seat? He should not argue with the Chair. Since I took over this position I have always tried to be fair—too fair—with Opposition Deputies.

Not in this case.

I have already ruled on this matter. Deputy Woods, please.

It was based on a misapprehension because there is not a precedent——

Deputy FitzGerald should not argue with the Chair.

But the Chair is under a misapprehension——

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Woods is in possession. I have given a ruling on the division of opinion in this House. There are 82 Deputies on my left and 61 on my right. Surely the Chair is entitled to call a Deputy from each side of the House, one following the other. That is the ruling which has already been given. Deputy Woods please.

The Chair said he had given this decision on precedent——

I am amazed that Deputy FitzGerald should come into this House and argue with the Chair. I am sorry that it has happened.

I am amazed that the Chair should change the procedure without having the courtesy to inform the Opposition of that change. I would like to know why we were not informed.

Deputy Woods please.

If there is a change in procedure the Opposition are entitled to be told about it.

There is a Committee on Procedure and Privileges in this House. If they give a direction to the Chair, well and good. Otherwise the Chair has the full authority of calling Deputies and being fair to all sides. Deputy Woods please.

The Opposition should be notified——

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Woods is in possession. Would Deputy FitzGerald please resume his seat and give Deputy Woods an opportunity to speak? Deputy FitzGerald is holding up the House and wasting the time of his Members.

I am asking the Chair to listen to me on a point of order. In all previous Adjournment Debates——

Deputy Woods please.

I have the records before me——

The Chair has no obligation to consult anybody. If he did he would leave himself open to the charge that he is not impartial. Deputy Woods please.

I wish to congratulate the Taoiseach and his Cabinet on the progress they have made in implementing the Fianna Fáil election promises.

I will raise this matter with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

That is the place to raise it.

But it will be too late for this debate.

I am amazed that Deputy FitzGerald should come into the House and attack the Chair.

In his contribution the Taoiseach referred to the fact that a number of promises have been fulfilled, including the removal of car tax, certain capital allocations for job creation during the year, the raising of the income and loan limits for SDA housing, provision of the £1,000 grants, the creation of 600 additional posts for teachers and extra gardaí. The Coalition said it was impossible to do all these things. However, they have been done, inflation is lower than predicted and the level of unemployment is reduced. The Coalition may tell us that this was just a question of good luck on the part of Fianna Fáil, but I would say it was good decision making and good planning by Fianna Fáil to take these measures and find them successful, even in this first year in office. The people gave Fianna Fáil a clear mandate to get the country moving again. They placed their confidence in Fianna Fáil, and especially in the Taoiseach, Deputy Jack Lynch. This trust was not misplaced and already the Government's conviction and decisive actions have instilled a new confidence in our economy and have resulted in a reduction in the number unemployed and a decrease in inflation.

Deputy Barry claimed in his speech today that all these improvements were the direct result of Coalition policies, but since the election there has been a dramatic change in the investment climate. The Coalition's Minister for Finance was too closely associated with the conduct, or with the name of conducting, witch hunts for any individual, farmer or company who dared to make a profit. The former Taoiseach had the opportunity to renew the confidence of the people in his Government by shuffling his Cabinet. He failed to take this action and paid the price in the June election.

The progress made to date by Fianna Fáil augurs well for 1978. I look forward to hard work in this House during the coming year. I represent a constituency in Dublin North East where unemployment is widespread and where the number of school leavers over the next five years must surely be the highest in the country. I welcome some of the measures which have been taken by Fianna Fáil during the past five months. I welcome in particular the recent establishment by the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy of the industrial consortium for job creation and maintenance, identifying obstacles to growth and co-ordinating State agencies to take positive action to ensure that the jobs that are needed will be provided. I welcome also the new advance factories and the new emphasis on home industries, evident in the IDA Bill. In my view these will be very valuable measures for people seeking employment. I commend the Minister for his enterprise development programme, which includes loan guarantees and interest subsidies for first time industrialists. In the coming year I should like to see a venture capital fund, perhaps including the financial institutions. I would also like to see two advance factories on the north side of Dublin city.

The new ACC Bill provides for considerable flexibility in the provision of credit for agriculture. I should like to see greater use of these provisions to encourage suitably qualified people, especially young people, to invest in the intensive areas of agriculture. Section 8 (1) (a) (iv) of that Bill reads:

Providing such other credit facilities as it thinks proper, (including giving guarantees to any person in relation to the payment of money, and of interest on the money, or the repayment of money paid by that person on foot of loans, advances or other credit facilities granted by that person and the payment of interest on such money),

Section 8 (1) (a) (v) reads:

engaging in the provision of hire purchase and leasing facilities and for that purpose acquiring, disposing of and otherwise dealing with stock, and

Section 8 (1) (a) (vi) reads:

arranging for the provision of credit facilities for any person...

I believe that in these measures there is the flexibility to go much further in relation to the provision of the kinds of capital and resources which are necessary for young people to have a real involvement and interest in the intensive areas of agriculture. To my knowledge this has not been the case to date. I have read the provisions of the Bill and hope and trust they will be implemented.

I should like to refer to energy policy. This was mentioned in the Taoiseach's speech and Deputy Barry also referred to it. He said that energy had assumed enormous proportions in our economy in the past four years. It certainly has, as we are all very much aware. Within those four years we should have had a comprehensive policy on energy, but no such policy was developed. I welcome the announcement by the Minister last week that a decision on a nuclear power station will be made within the next six weeks. Whichever way the decision goes it is important that it be accompanied by a policy for energy conservation. It is quite obvious that we need better insulation in our homes and in our offices. We need to use our natural gas as a premium fuel for fertilisers and for town gas supplies. We need to look at combined heat and power schemes which can increase fuel use from 35 per cent to 70 per cent and 75 per cent. For instance, these might be power generating stations associated with district heating; in north Dublin it might be associated with glasshouse heating.

We need a number of other measures to ensure adequate conservation of energy. The measures are there to be used and I hope that the Minister in his policy will make adequate provision for conservation. As a country we have become complacent regarding our energy supplies. The OECD report in January, 1977, gave us a clear and simple message. Either we conserve our energy supplies and develop a comprehensive energy policy or we face an even greater energy crisis in the next decade.

I wish now to deal with the question of energy in Dublin. There is a major problem in the cost of supplying electricity, particularly in the past 18 months. This applies especially where there are no gas mains laid. There are areas on the north side, in Milbrook, Mount Olive, Swan's Nest and St. Donagh's Estate where no gas mains have been laid. These people must depend entirely on electricity for energy and therefore cannot avail of the Government subsidy on gas. These people should be given special consideration during the coming year.

Deserted wives, widows, the unemployed and low income families have been experiencing enormous difficulty in the past 18 months. Many of them incurred large debts during last winter in respect of ESB bills and there have been many disconnections. There are very high investigation and reconnection fees and the families concerned have experienced great difficulty. I suggest that consideration be given to the following measures.

First, that the ESB be required to employ a small number of welfare officers to assess the situation and propose remedies before disconnecting any family. Far too often people are disconnected and deprived of energy. Subsequently a Deputy, councillor or welfare officer has to plead with the ESB to have supplies restored, when in the first instance it should have been obvious that this would be a difficult welfare situation. Secondly, I suggest that disconnections be suspended until early in the New Year to give people an opportunity at least to enjoy Christmas. A major effort should be made to reconnect families for Christmas.

With regard to the handicapped and welfare classes, although of necessity we must concentrate our efforts on getting the country moving again we must also ask ourselves where we are going and who is going with us. I welcome the practical concern for handicapped and welfare groups shown by all sides of the House in the session that is now ending. The society we seek is one in which our social concern matches our commitment to private enterprise, where economic development and social progress advance hand-in-hand. The voluntary bodies who care for the handicapped have made enormous progress, and as a result many handicapped people have been trained to play a valuable part in our society. These people will present new challenges to us in the coming year to provide workshops, employment incentives and aids for them. I trust their needs will be catered for in the coming budget.

With regard to the section dealing with industrial relations, Deputy Barry introduced the question of Ferenka in relation to the problem of industrial relations. There are some valuable and simple lessons to be learned from recent events in Limerick. I will make three points. First, in dealing with disputes presently there is too much delay. There are agreed procedures for the settlement of disputes but too often they do not go into action quickly enough. At times the personnel officer of the company concerned is unavailable and at other times the official union representatives are not readily available from headquarters. In addition, far too often formal written agreement setting out the steps to be taken in the event of disputes does not exist in a company. Qualified people are essential on both sides when disputes arise. There is a need for substantial training grants for union representatives so that they can match fully the personnel managers in their negotiations. I should like to see adequate funds made available to trade unions to enable them to give their representatives the training and development they consider fit.

The second point concerns the monitoring of the multinationals. I would ask Deputy Barry where was the director who represented the IDA and the taxpayer on the board of Ferenka when trouble was brewing? Are the criteria for the appointment of such directors right? I understand that the Coalition-appointed director in Ferenka was on the boards of numerous other companies. Is this the right kind of procedure? Did he, or was he able to give equal attention to all of the companies? The Coalition seemed to have had a weakness for appointing one superman to many directorships. I note this was also the case with regard to boards and organisations connected with agriculture. There are no such supermen but there are many competent Irishmen in all parties and in none who could contribute as directors in such circumstances. We must learn the lesson of Limerick and ensure that we get the right men to represent us on these companies and boards. We must pay them well enough to allow them to devote a major part of their time to the job.

With regard to the monitoring of the multinationals, I see a need to strengthen greatly the Industrial Relations Unit of the IDA. The multinationals must be accountable for the development of their industrial relations. Grants are payable in phases and these grants should be dependent on the introduction of recognised industrial relations procedures. Union representatives should be free to report progress to the Industrial Relations Unit of the IDA, perhaps in association with the Government's nominee on the board. In this way the Minister could be fully briefed and acquainted with progress in the company in regard to industrial relations.

Special grants might also be related to the development of Irish management at top level. This would bridge gaps in understanding which became evident in the Ferenka dispute between management and workers. Similar monitoring procedures might well be adopted in relation to local industries assisted by the IDA.

The third point I should like to make in relation to industrial relations is that of the implementation of the secret ballot. I believe the unions themselves should insist on a secret ballot, possibly even a postal one, when strike action is proposed. In that way the unions would be seen clearly to be putting into practice the principles of union democracy. We all know of instances where a show of hands has led to victimisation, social pressures and a delay in reaching decisions workers themselves may well want. The implementation of the secret ballot would be very helpful in this regard.

I have every confidence in the reasonableness and responsibility of the vast majority of Irish workers, given the right opportunity of expression. Our children, who have a vested interest in this debate will not thank those of us who have a responsible part to play in developing good industrial relations if we do not come up with adequate solutions. We all want to see strong unions and an end to inter-union disputes.

In my community alone, on one short road, there are 1,000 children. It is their futures and aspirations that we debate. I welcome the Minister for Labour's proposed Commission on Industrial Relations. I trust it will investigate urgently the whole range of industrial relations in industry. I congratulate the unions on the work they have done over the last 60 years. In relation specifically to the question of industrial relations and the problems it can cause, I would say to the wreckers, disrupters or false prophets, whether they be in management, unions or in the Oireachtas—and I say this on behalf of our younger people— be careful for you tread on my dreams.

The underlying theme of this debate and the main concern of those of us on all sides of the House is the problem of unemployment, that of providing an opportunity for a fulfilling and remunerative life for young people leaving our schools and for the many older people now finding themselves out of work.

I propose to deal in my contribution exclusively with agriculture and the contribution it can make to preserving and creating jobs. Far too much attention is paid to the alleged differences of interest between people in agriculture and those living in towns or engaged in other occupations. Over the last four years the previous Government—and it was not the previous Government alone, the farmers and the country at large in response to improved prices in the EEC—succeeded in reducing the rate of flight from the land as against the preceding four years by half. During that four year period approximately 20,000 fewer people left the land than in the previous four year period. Those are 20,000 fewer people competing for jobs in towns; 20,000 fewer people competing with our schoolleavers for jobs. If farming and agriculture can be expanded, if the population can be maintained on the land, that constitutes a direct contribution towards relieving the problem of unemployment in towns for young people and the unemployed in general.

The National Economic and Social Council, in their Report No. 34, pointed out that the right policies in relation to agriculture can have a major effect between 1975 and 1985 in the matter of employment. Depending on whether what they describe as a high growth strategy or a low growth strategy is pursued by the Government and industry, there can be 15,000 more people employed in agriculture in 1985.

It is not merely employment on the land that is important; it is employment in processing agricultural products as well. In the same study the National Economic and Social Council pointed out that if a high growth strategy in agriculture was pursued we could create 24,000 new jobs in agricultural processing over the ten-year period between 1975 and 1985. If on the other hand a low growth strategy in agriculture was pursued, we could expect to create only 570 new jobs. Quite apart from those jobs there are the additional ones which agricultural prosperity will contribute in various services to farmers, the sale of inputs, the provision of contracting services and so on.

When one compares the cost of creating a new job in agricultural processing or an existing one in agriculture with the very high cost indeed in terms of capital grants of creating a new job in industry, it is quite clear agriculture has a major contribution to make. For every £1 of State resources spent on agriculture the return can be as good, if not better than that in other areas where money might be expended. Certainly I believe it will provide a better return than the type of public works programme talked about so much over the last few months. While the public works job may have an initial beneficial effect, it does not have any long-term, self-sustaining viability whereas a job preserved in agriculture or created in food processing does have the ability to sustain itself without continuing support from the Exchequer. That is very important when looking into the future and at the level of public debt which this or any Government can afford to incur in the programmes now adopted.

The National Coalition in their manifesto prior to the election recognised the lead role agriculture must play in the future of our economy; so also did the Fianna Fáil Party. They stated that the main thrust in the recovery of the national economy must come from agriculture. Those are words taken from their manifesto, words which I applaud sincerely and with which this side of the House agrees. In view of the very specific statement that that is, it is unfortunate that the Taoiseach in his address here today devoted such a short part to agriculture. Indeed nothing he said went beyond what one could describe as a very brief recital of well-known facts about agriculture. There were no proposals, no suggestions for future action by the Government in relation to agriculture. The Taoiseach spoke about initiatives in other areas of the economy, but he spoke of no initiative to be contemplated by the Government in relation to agriculture. I hope a different attitude is adopted by him in future speeches. I hope his neglect of agriculture in terms of positive proposals in this Adjournment Debate is merely an oversight, but I doubt it. The Minister for Agriculture, in relation to the decisions he has had to make so far, has shown a degree of indecision, of postponement of decisions which would have been unheard of in the tenure of his predecessor.

I shall give a few examples which will demonstrate the case very clearly. In so doing it would be well to concentrate on those areas of our agricultural industry at present in crisis. For example, potato production is one where great difficulties are being experienced at present. The price to the producer has fallen drastically and many producers who are engaged in an intensive and employment-giving form of horticulture are now facing severe losses.

The Government in their election manifesto promised specifically that a potato marketing board would be established. If ever there was a need in any year for a potato marketing board surely it is this year. The Government have been now five months in office, the period of greatest difficulty for the industry, and they have not yet delivered in regard to this board. Neither have they given any indication as to when they may deliver on it. They have not followed the example set by their Northern Ireland counterparts who introduced a special ware potato stock feed scheme which allows surplus potatoes at reasonable prices to be used for feeding stock by the Government taking up the potatoes at a price to the producer and reselling them for stock feed. This Government have not done that. Neither have they shown any serious endeavour in relation to a common agricultural policy in regard to potatoes and difficulties continue unabated because of lack of action by the Government.

A similar potentially difficult situation exists in relation to grain as a result of a very good harvest this year. Substantial stocks of barley fill the grain stores. It is not being used to any adequate extent for the production of compound feeding stuffs for those farmers feeding animals over the winter months. Feeding stuffs are being imported and smuggled grain is crossing the Border. This does not necessarily originate in Northern Ireland. It may have originated in France and further afield. This is being used instead of our own substantial stocks, and the result is it will be very difficult indeed to negotiate a reasonable price for barley next year. The Government will say they have taken some action about smuggling and I have no doubt something has been done by the Revenue Commissioners, but without success. Grain smuggling continues. I have put forward what I believe to be a foolproof way of dealing with this problem, namely, introducing under section 2 of the Fertilisers and Feedstuffs Act a requirement that all those selling compound feed must state on the bags the ingredients and the source of those ingredients. In that way the problems could be identified. I admit it would not deal entirely with the smuggling problem and, in that context, the answer must be a much closer vigilance on the part of the Revenue Commissioners along the Border.

The Government also promised in their manifesto higher grants for farm storage of tillage products. Here, too, we are facing a situation where there are substantial amounts of grain in stock. They are likely to be more substantial next year if we have another good harvest and so there is obviously a very strong case for implementing this promise of higher grants for farm storage of grain now so that farmers will not be in a position of having to sell their grain at high cost to someone else to store or in terms of loss if the prices are not reasonable.

We have a similar problem in the matter of the sheep industry. Here the operative word would seem to be indecision. The Minister says it is his intention to obtain free access for Irish sheep products to the French market on 1st January regardless. His contention is, it is our legal right and he is trying to negotiate a bilateral deal with the French. Why a bilateral deal if the Minister is really confident about free access from 1st January? I believe he should be confident about his rights under the law now that the transition period is over and he should not be pursuing the prospect of a bilateral deal which will only give the French and the European Community an excuse to defer the introduction of a full common agricultural policy allowing completely free access to all parts of the Community for sheep products. A patched up deal between this Government and the French Government on the eve of a French general election is hardly likely to give much solace to Irish sheep producers. The Minister's decision to go along that road, and in so doing possibly postpone the vigorous prosecution of a court case which has been resting since an oral hearing in May in the European Court, can only have adverse results. The court should have come to a decision long before now. The fact that it has not done so is possibly due to lack of pressure by the Irish Government and the Minister because he wanted to negotiate a bilateral deal with the French. This strategy is bound to create doubt as to its wisdom from the point of view of achieving a common agricultural policy and reasonable incomes for sheep producers who have little or no option but to be in sheep because of the nature of the land they work.

As a major dairy producer we have an interest in expanding the market for milk products. One of the measures proposed by the Council of Ministers at a meeting in April of this year was the introduction of a school milk scheme which would make milk and milk products available to school children. The EEC agreed to provide 50 per cent of the cost provided the Governments in each of the Nine provided 25 per cent, half what the EEC was providing. Many countries have already gone ahead and introduced the scheme. Others have indicated they intend to do so and are drawing up the relevant legislation and making the relevant arrangements. Our Government have not decided to do anything. Last week the Government were embarrassed when I raised this matter by way of parliamentary question and subsequently on the adjournment. There was no Minister available. The Minister for Social Welfare held he was not responsible but, lo and behold, the following week he took the debate. Presumably he had been given his instructions in the interval and the Government had made up their collective mind as to who was responsible in a matter that was going to bring in a valuable social service. The Government would never have made up their collective mind had I not pressed the matter.

Quite clearly, the challenge to agriculture is increased production. In the last four years we have had substantially improved prices. It is only fair to say that the increase in production in response to these prices has not been up to expectations. What are the reasons for this? I believe there are two reasons why the farmers' response has not been sufficient. There is first the need to improve know-how in the best use of the land. Farming is now highly scientific and farmers need the best possible advice and education. Secondly, there is need for improvement in the management structure of agriculture and the provision of better access to the management of farms by young small farmers who wish to expand their holdings and who are finding it very difficult to get land. In relation to know-how, the previous Government decided to set up the National Agricultural Authority to unify research, education and advice, and that authority was in being when the Government left office. It was ready to go immediately into operation to set clear development targets integrating these services which any sensible person will see should run together. An adviser can only give advice based on research, and education is relevant only when it is based on the latest research. It makes sense that these three services should be closely linked and that the planning for them should be integrated and carried out by one unified body.

The first act of the new Minister was to announce that he was withdrawing the Agricultural Institute from the National Agricultural Authority. In the manifesto, the Minister is committed to setting up a separate agricultural training authority. Instead of having one authority doing one job dealing with the thing in a businesslike manner, the new Government are setting up three authorities—the National Agricultural Authority, presumably dealing with advice; the Agricultural Institute, dealing with research; and the Agricultural Training Authority, dealing with training. These will be good for people who wish to become chief executives of State companies and for people who wish to become members of boards of State companies, but it will not be good for agriculture to have three bodies doing a job that could be done by one body. Instead of having decisions taken within the one building where researchers can consult with advisers and so on, these consultations will have to take place through letters between different offices throughout the country. Career structures will be set up and we will have separate empires built to the detriment of Irish agriculture.

This penchant for creating new boards is not confined merely to agricultural education, research and advice. We will have the welcome setting up of a potato marketing board and a grain marketing board. The functions which these boards will have are necessary, but I question the wisdom of setting up a lot of separate boards. We will have a potato marketing board, a grain marketing board, Bord Bainne, the CBF and, according to the election manifesto, there will be an overall body which will supplement and co-ordinate the existing bodies. The overall body will supplement and co-ordinate existing marketing efforts in liaison with CTT. I do not disagree with the intention behind the setting up of these boards. It is good that the Government are thinking in terms of having an executive agency responsible for an expanding marketing programme in the areas of potato and grain production, but I question the wisdom of having them all in separate empires with one overall body which is doing no more than supplementing and co-ordinating. There is a strong case for having one authority to deal with all agricultural matters. I doubt if the fragmentary approach of the Government will get the results or will ensure that our agricultural goods are processed to the maximum extent within this country and are not sent abroad for processing where the added value will occur.

There is a need for integration of decision making in relation to agriculture, not only within the agencies under the aegis of the Department of Agriculture but within the Government between various other Departments which impinge on the development of agriculture. Possibly the greatest agent for structural reform in agriculture is the non-contributory old age pension scheme operated by the Department of Social Welfare. The non-contributory old age pension regulations require that a farmer who wishes to apply for an old age pension cannot retain ownership of the land. In many cases that is the encouragement to older farmers to hand on their farms to their sons so that the son can get into full management of the land on an unfettered basis. That aspect illustrates the fact that a Department apparently remote from agriculture can have a major beneficial effect on structural re-form in agriculture. The Government should review the whole range of social welfare benefits which affect agriculture, the range of taxation which affects agriculture and the operation of the various schemes, including the farm modernisation scheme, which come within the ambit of the Department of Agriculture to see how they can be integrated in one common strategy so as to provide the maximum amount of employment for people on the land. The danger is that if such co-ordination does not take place between the various Government agencies affecting agriculture, the tax code will be pushing the farmer in one direction, the farm modernisation scheme will be pushing him in another and the Department of Social Welfare scheme will push him in yet another direction.

I do not wish to interrupt the Deputy, but I will remind him that he has five minutes left.

The Government promised in their election manifesto that they would seek to have the development farmer category under the farm modernisation scheme expanded so that all farmers would be included and so that there would be no transitional category but just an expanded development category and a commercial category. The number of farmers in the west, and in other parts too, who would not qualify for development status is nothing short of alarming. The difference in the amount of grants that they can get by being in the transitional category as against the development category may not be too significant in some cases— although it rules them out for equipment grants—but the psychological effect is great. The implicit suggestion that development is not for them is very bad. In the west of Ireland agriculture is and should be the answer for the vast majority of the population. We need to develop the small farms as well as farms which are now within the scheme. I agree with the commitment given by the Government to seek an expanded development category and I hope something will be done about it in the near future. A promise was also given to introduce 3 per cent subsidised loans for all farmers in the development category. When will these 3 per cent subsidy loans be introduced?

In the west and north west of Ireland much land is in need of improved drainage and the EEC has now proposed to make substantial sums of money available for drainage. If an arterial drainage scheme is to be introduced there are a number of complicated preliminaries through which the scheme must go. The scheme must be exhibited, objections have to be taken, and there has to be circulation to the various Government Departments.

Finally there has to be a decision by the Minister for Finance to make representations to the Government. It takes approximately two years from the date that the scheme is decided upon for it to commence operation. If, as is likely, that money is to be available to this country from the EEC say next year, it is vital that the planning start now with the processes I have mentioned—the exhibition, the taking of objections, the decision in relation to the various arterial drainage schemes in the west of Ireland. It is further vital that any EEC money made available for drainage be used not merely to prop up existing drainage programmes, which are going ahead anyway, but to create new forms of field drainage which would otherwise not have occurred. It is also important that research by the Irish Agricultural Institute in relation to the drainage of land be given the maximum possible support. There are many new techniques being developed to find how the impermeable soils which retain water can be made more permeable. Techniques such as the deep plough and mould draining are being developed. The North Connacht farmers are providing an impetus for the use of such machinery in a programme they have recently announced. The Government must give maximum support to this programme. With adequate drainage there would be tremendous potential for the development of agriculture on land which is now not capable of such development. I hope the Government will not be remiss in availing of this opportunity of expanding rapidly the drainage programme, particularly in the west of Ireland. Of course, development potential of improved drainage exists in every part of the country.

Debate adjourned.
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