asked the Minister for Tourism and Transport the provision that has been made by his Department to ensure that public transport services expand in line and in phase with the suburban expansion of this country's major urban centres.
9.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Public Transport.
8.
asked the Minister for Tourism and Transport the detailed discussions that have taken place between his Department and the Department of the Environment regarding the standard of public transport service within the Dublin region.
10.
asked the Minister for Tourism and Transport if he has received a submission from CIE regarding the suburban rail electrification scheme; and, if so, if he is in a position to indicate whether his Department has sanctioned its implementation.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 8, 9 and 10 together.
The responsibility of providing urban passenger transport is part of CIE's statutory duty, imposed by the Transport Act 1958, to provide reasonable, efficient and economical transport services.
I have been informed by CIE that they have adopted two approaches to ensuring that public transport services expand in line with the expansion of the major urban centres. The first approach is the alteration of the existing services as and when changes in travel demand arise. The continuing expansion of urban centres has demanded that CIE revise their route patterns and frequencies regularly and new routes and timetables are introduced as required. The board's second approach is related to the longer term requirements for public transport services. These requirements have been the subject of transportation studies in the major urban centres and CIE has been associated with all of them.
Consultation between my Department and the Department of the Environment about urban transport requirements is arranged from time to time as the need arises. In addition CIE have frequent discussions with the Department of the Environment and the local authorities in Dublin regarding public transport services within the Dublin region.
CIE have submitted proposals for the electrification of the Howth/Bray railway line. The examination of these proposals and the necessary consultation with other Departments is proceeding and the proposals will in due course come before the Government for consideration.
I thank the Minister for his comprehensive reply. The Minister took the three questions together and I have a number of supplementary questions to ask.
With regard to the reply to Question No. 8, the Minister mentioned, if I got the answer correctly, that CIE have an obligation to monitor urban transport services as and when changes are required. Later the Minister suggested that CIE would respond as required. I am concerned that this response is not adequate and I am wondering could the Minister define precisely what is meant by "as and when changes demand" and "as and when required" and would he say if there are financial threshold limitations before any bus route changes and the development of routes take place?
I am sure the Deputy will accept that in a newly built-up area CIE would need to be making their plans in relation to servicing that area and that would be the point at which they would be aware a change was required. The Deputy is probably aware that sometimes the difficulty that arises in regard to that particular situation is where the local authority have not taken over the roads. Very often there is a considerable time lag in such cases which would not be the fault of CIE.
If the Minister has the information available could he indicate whether CIE are in a position, assuming a road is taken in charge, to provide a service on the day the new estate is opened or must CIE wait until a certain level of population has moved in, a level which will provide an economic threshold to cover the cost of providing the service?
I have not got that information but I would imagine that as soon as there is a reasonable number of people in the area a service is made available to them.
Does that mean that, if there is not a reasonable number of people in an area, CIE are not in a position to provide a reasonable service? If Dublin Corporation houses people out beyond Blanchardstown what is the definition of a reasonable number of people "as and when changes .... demand" before the people are provided with a service?
I am sure CIE, in examining such a situation, would be able to assess when it was necessary to bring a service in. As I said, however, the main problem that I have found in regard to this is the fact that roads are not available to take bus traffic.
I am talking now specifically about local authority schemes so we can get rid of the question of roads in charge. Is there a cost limit set by the Minister's Department before CIE provide a bus service into a new estate?
There would not be a cost limit set by my Department. I do not know what CIE may do.
On Question No. 10 dealing with the suburban rail electrification scheme, I think I am right in saying these proposals were on the desk of the Minister's predecessor and have been on his desk now for some time. Will the Government be in a position to make provision this year, if they decide to go ahead with the proposal, to initiate the work and, if so, could the Minister give us any information of the number of jobs that would be created by the implementation of this scheme and the number of jobs that would arise as a result of constructing rolling stock at Inchicore?
The proposals in question have been under detailed examination in the Department in consultation with CIE. When that examination has been completed a memorandum will be prepared for the Government. I cannot say anything more in relation to it at this stage.
When were the proposals received by the Department and how long does the Minister reckon the review process is likely to take?
In April 1977 CIE submitted their proposals to the Department.
Question No. 11.
Surely it is legitimate to pursue this. Can the Minister give any indication when the review will be completed? I recognise it is a technical area and substantial sums are involved, but the traffic chaos is appalling.
So far as the review is concerned, it is probably almost completed.
I want to ask two questions. Could the Minister give the House even an approximate date as to when we might hope that the rapid rail transit scheme involving the building of underground links between various rail termini in Dublin will begin? When will the first sod be turned?
That is a separate question.
I am afraid I cannot give a date. If the Deputy puts down a question I may be able to answer it then.
Has the Minister seen the brightly coloured display in Westland Row Station showing this scheme. The fashions displayed in the pictures will be out of date before this scheme is begun and there will have to be a new display.
I have called the next question.
Just one more question. Adverting to the problem created by the non-taking in charge of roads in new estates and the consequent inability of the State transport monopoly to provide public transport in these estates, would the Minister agree that this is a classic example of a problem which a Department of the Environment, worth its name, ought to be able to iron out?
That is a separate question.
I accept that a Department of the Environment should be able to iron it out and I am, in fact, surprised it was not ironed out over the last four years.
The Minister has been a Deputy now for over 20 years and he knows this is an old problem and the cosmetic retitling of the Department of Local Government will not solve it. We did not bother retitling the Department of Local Government.
11.
asked the Minister for Tourism and Transport if the Government regard the provision of public transport as a social service or as a commercial operation; and, if a social service, the Government's attitude towards the balance between fare revenue and Exchequer subsidy.
Section 7 of the Transport Act 1958 imposes on CIE, which is the main provider of public transport in the country, the general duty to provide reasonable, efficient and economical transport services with due regard to safety of operation, the encouragement of national economic development and the maintenance of reasonable conditions of employment for their employees.
Section 2 of the Transport Act 1964, as amended by section 3 of the Transport (No. 2) Act 1974, imposes on CIE the duty to conduct their under-taking so that, after taking into account payments made to the board out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas, their expenditure shall not be greater, taking one year with another, than their revenue.
These Acts do not make any reference to the provision of services which might be termed "social". However, the subvention provided by the Government is designed to cover the deficit arising in respect of those services which cannot be provided on an economic basis but which are regarded as necessary in the public interest.
In 1975 and 1976 the Exchequer subvention was equivalent to approximately 40 per cent of total revenue. The size of the subvention is not however fixed on the basis of any predetermined ratio. It is settled by the Government in the light of CIE forecasts for the year ahead, the prevailing and expected Exchequer position and other relevant considerations, including the interests of users of the services. CIE are expected to pursue all possible means of containing and reducing the deficit in the years ahead.
Can the Minister say if, when the Department and the Government are discussing, as they must, each year with CIE the extent of the deficit, there is a differentiation in the level of subsidy which would go for different kinds of services provided by CIE— for example, urban bus services, rural bus services or suburban rail services— or is it a straightforward totting up of the moneys required and the gross deficit? In simple words, is there any differentiation made during these discussions between the level of subsidy applied to different forms of service provided by CIE and if so can the Minister indicate what they might be?
I am sure that CIE prepare their estimate on the basis of changes under the different headings.
Am I to take it that CIE are the body that decide what the level of social subsidy should be in any one service and then propose the financing to the Government, or do the Department have any input to make in regard to the balance between revenue and subsidy?
CIE prepare an estimate and the Department decide on the level of subsidy.
I am trying to establish Government policy in this area. Do I take it from the Minister's reply that, under the terms of the Transport Act 1974 CIE attempt to make every service pay its way and that, as a result of some residual deficit that would arise, they then come to the Government; that at all stages the Department talk in gross terms and that the Department have no specific input——
That is a statement, Deputy.
With respect, it is a technical area.
The question only remotely relates to the original one. If we permit that sort of wandering we will make very little progress.
Does the Minister agree that what are, in fact, subventions for social services appear as losses and that such losses have a demoralising effect on the staff of CIE, and has he plans to change the presentation of these subventions?
Everybody understands it.