asked the Minister for Justice when it is proposed to introduce legislation to protect the interests of flat-dwellers.
14.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Flat-Dwellers' Legal Status.
13.
asked the Minister for Justice if he is satisfied with the present legal status of flat-dwellers; and if any consideration is being given to establishing certain minimum rights of occupation.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 13 and 14 together. A review of the whole area of private rented accommodation which was begun during the term of office of the previous Government was recently completed in the Department of the Environment, including the workings of the Rent Restrictions Acts, 1960 and 1967, and the supply and condition of rented accommodation generally. The results of that review have been circulated to other Departments and the replies are awaited. This is directly relevant to questions that arise in extending control to rented accommodation not now covered by rent restriction legislation.
I should like to make it clear that, while the Government are in favour of amending legislation, they recognise— and this was made explicitly clear on our behalf, before the election, to the National Flatdwellers Association— that in particular any legislation which operated to keep down rents of flats to an unreasonable or unfair degree would not only be unjust to the owners but detrimental to the interests of those needing rented accommodation, both by reducing the amount of new accommodation coming on to the market and by discouraging the proper maintenance of existing housing stock. A system that would be fair to both sides and that would not be against the public interest is what is to be aimed for and this must take time to produce, all the more so since it may well be necessary to see how existing accommodation that is subject to rent control would fare in the context of such new legislation.
Will the Minister give a guarantee that the pledges given in the pre-election charter of rights which was circulated by his party to the flatland areas of the cities will be implemented in full?
The Deputy need have no worries whatsoever with regard to the fulfilment by my party in Government of the assurances given before the election.
When must we expect the legislation arising from the review which has now been finalised, as it would appear that the pledges given did not hint at the kind of delays we are now experiencing? When do we see some action?
The results of the review that I mentioned have been circulated to Departments for comments. I am awaiting these comments. When I examine them I will be at a stage where I can make recommendations to the Government.
The benefit of this review to the legislation was not seen as a prerequisite for the very generous commitments made prior to the election. Why does it now inhibit the Minister from introducing legislation?
I am afraid the Deputy does not understand who makes policy decisions in Government.
(Cavan-Monaghan): Is the Minister aware that some building societies look much less favourably on applications for finance to purchase self-contained flats, than to purchase houses, and that some building societies do not entertain such applications? Would the Minister agree that that is unreasonable and will he do something about it?
That is a separate question and the Minister may not answer it.
(Cavan-Monaghan): It is a general question asking the Minister to do something to protect the interests of flat-dwellers. I am asking the Minister to ask the building societies to treat applications of would-be flat-dwellers the same as would-be house owners. It is relevant and arises directly from the question.
The question as far as I can see deals with legislation and not with building societies.
(Cavan-Monaghan): Yes, but the Minister can legislate for building societies too.
It relates to the same subject but it is not a relevant supplementary question. The Deputy knows that as well as I.
(Cavan-Monaghan): I respectfully submit that the Chair must have made too rigid a New Year's resolution on what is relevant and what is not relevant.
The Deputy will appreciate that matters remotely associated with questions cannot be permitted. They only give rise to debate which is not permissible at Question Time.
Would the Ceann Comhairle agree that the word "relevant" means "relates to the same subject?" How does the Chair distinguish between the two?
The Standing Order says elucidation of the matter in the question is permissible.
(Cavan-Monaghan): I do not wish to quarrel unduly with the Chair, but might I respectfully suggest that one of the interests of flat-dwellers is to be able to get finance to purchase a flat and surely that would be one of the ways of protecting the interests of flatdwellers. That is what I am asking the Minister to do or to arrange with one of his colleagues to do.
We are not having a debate. These remarks seem to crop up mainly in relation to new Deputies. The question relates to legislation. The Deputy is asking a question about finance companies and their attitude towards flatdwellers. The question is related but is not a relevant question for supplementary questions. There is no doubt about my ruling on that.
(Cavan-Monaghan): I would ask the Chair to have another look at Questions Nos. 13 and 14 and in all seriousness I suggest that my question is relevant.
Question No. 55 on the Order Paper to the Minister for the Environment covers the point raised by the Deputy.
I am calling Deputy Quinn who wishes to ask a supplementary.
Perhaps the Minister could clarify which Department is responsible for drafting this legislation? Is it the Department of the Environment or the Minister for Justice who will bring in this legislation, if and when it is drafted?
The Department of Justice is very much involved in this area as is the Department of the Environment. The Deputy would not know, but I am presently discussing with my colleague in the Department of the Environment the possibility of leaving this whole area to him, or his leaving the whole area to me. Might I say to the Deputies who are smiling that my predecessor in the Department of Justice and the predecessor of Deputy Barrett in Environment had already reached an agreement in this sphere?
What is the Minister discussing if agreement is reached?
(Interruptions.)
It is a pity Deputy Barry did not know what was going on.
What chance have we of legislation if the Minister does not know who is to deal with it?
Would the Deputies like me to read out the day, date, chapter and verse?
(Interruptions.)
If the thing was agreed what is the Minister discussing?
I am seriously trying to establish responsibility. To whom do we address questions? Some questions down were referred to another Minister. This is important and perhaps the Minister could say. The previous Government made a decision in principle regarding which Department should be responsible.
The previous Government did not make the decision in principle.
I was given to understand that they did.
(Cavan-Monaghan): Will the present Minister make one, please?
We will make decisions.
(Cavan-Monaghan): When?
When we are ready.
Order.
Can the Minister make a decision now and inform us whether he or his colleague will be introducing this legislation?
It did not worry the Minister before June.
All questions to me as Minister for Justice on the Order Paper are my responsibility, and all questions to other Ministers are their responsibility, and whatever Minister introduces legislation into this House would be introducing it on behalf of the Government of the day.
Do I understand that the question of legislation governing flat-dwellers, including rents, will be a matter for the Department of Justice and not a question relating to the Department of the Environment? This is a reasonable question. We do not wish to waste time by asking questions of a Minister who does not have responsibility to answer them. Perhaps the Minister could help us.
(Interruptions.)
Is there an answer at this stage? Could the Minister give us a decision as soon as possible, if he has not the answer now?
When the legislation is brought to the House the Deputy will clearly see what Minister will be responsible for it.
(Interruptions.)
(Cavan-Monaghan): In the meantime the flat-dwellers fall between two stools.