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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Feb 1978

Vol. 304 No. 1

Veterinary Inspection Fees Regulations: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the following Regulations in draft:

Pigs and Bacon Act, 1935 (Part II) (No. 6) Regulations, 1978, and Agricultural Produce (Fresh Meat) Act, 1930 (Exporter's Licences) (Fees) Regulations, 1978 copies of which were laid in draft before the Dáil on the 14th day of February, 1978.

The effect of the regulations before the House in draft would be to raise the level of fees payable in respect of animals presented for veterinary inspection under the Fresh Meat Acts and the Pigs and Bacon Acts. The increases would vary according to the type of animal. The fee for cattle would be increased from 45p to £1 per head and for sheep from 8p to 17p per head. In the case of pigs the increase would be from 12p to 25p per head. I propose to bring the increases into effect on 6 March 1978.

Due to increases in salaries, inflation and the need for more intensive supervision of procedures at meat and bacon factories, the cost of veterinary supervision has risen continuously. In recent years the cost has risen steeply with the result that receipts from fees—currently about £700,000 per annum— cover less than half the cost of providing the veterinary inspection service. The proposed increases which have been cleared with the National Prices Commission, would redress the imbalance somewhat but would still not go the full way towards recouping the cost of the service, which is currently in excess of £2 million per annum.

There has been a great expansion in our meat industry in recent years and the volume of animals presented for veterinary inspection has increased. While this resulted in an increase in receipts from fees there was also a corresponding increase in veterinary inspection work and, therefore, in the cost of the service. Furthermore, EEC membership has brought stricter requirements and has imposed more intensive supervision procedures. Greater diversification into processed products has been a further factor requiring the strengthening of the inspection service. At the new rates proposed, the fees are calculated to yield £1.6 million in a calendar year. The recovery of the full cost of veterinary supervision must be the ultimate aim and in the circumstances I consider the increases now proposed go a reasonable part of the way. Also, when the level of fees is considered in the context of present-day livestock values, the fees must be regarded as modest. The average price of cattle slaughtered at meat export premises is probably about £330, and the new rate of fee represents 0.3 per cent of that price. A fat bullock would, of course, be worth a good deal more.

The veterinary inspection service is a vital element in our meat export business. Without satisfactory veterinary supervision and certification our products simply will not be accepted abroad; and as major meat exporters we must ensure that our products meet the highest standards of hygiene demanded by the customer. It seems only reasonable that those interests which benefit directly from the service should bear the cost.

The proposed fees do not apply to animals slaughtered at premises catering for the home market only. Those premises are under local authority supervision.

First, I should like to make it clear that the service which this levy goes some of the way to pay for is obviously very desirable and that it is of great importance to our exporters that there be adequate inspection so that the standard of Irish beef, mutton and pigmeat will retain its reputation of being among the best in the world.

It is not my wish to be taken as being opposed in any way to the service being carried out. It is a service that should be provided as efficiently, as effectively and as conscientiously as possible. However, the question is that of the method to be employed and of how the service should be paid for. The proposal before the House will add in effect another £1 million to the costs of the farming community or, to put it another way, will take from them £1 million in income because obviously these fees that are being borne by the factories will be reflected immediately in the prices paid to farmers. Therefore, there will be £1 million less available to pay farmers for their pigmeat, mutton, and beef. Such an increase must be considered against the background of similar steps taken by the Government, for example, the removal of the fertiliser subsidy at a cost to the farmers of £4 million, the removal of the cheese subsidy and the change in the assessment in relation to rates, plus the failure to increase thresholds for inheritance tax under table 1 and a variety of other measures which are taking money from the farmers in a backhanded way.

The regulation before us is another instalment in a plan, the duration and extent of which we are not yet aware. It would be well for the Government to state clearly what other measures they have in mind for taking money from agriculture. Each measure is presented as if it were on its own. The change in the fertiliser subsidy, for instance, was presented as being one measure and farmers may have taken the line that in such circumstances it was not necessary to create a great fuss about the change, but then there was the change in the cheese subsidy followed by the change in rates assessment as well as the failure to make the adjustment in the inheritance tax threshold. Therefore, each measure seems to be one of a succession of measures.

If the Minister has any other such measure in mind he should tell us so now so that farmers when being asked to pass judgment on the budget and on the Government's attitude to agriculture will have all the facts at their disposal. The Government should not be surreptitious in their approach to this matter.

There are dangers inherent in increasing fees which must be borne by people seeking to slaughter cattle, pigs or sheep within the State. There are alternatives to having the animals slaughtered in the country. It is possible to export the animals live. In the event of their being exported by sea to Britain there is some check and the levy can be collected, but it is not possible to have similar control in relation to the live exports of cattle across the land boundary within the island.

There is a proposal, too, that a similar levy should be initiated to pay for the cost of the operations of CBF, the body responsible for promoting and perhaps trading in Irish beef exports in other parts of the world. It is proposed that part of their costs be defrayed by the imposition of another levy on the slaughter of cattle within the State.

We have suggestions that perhaps at some stage some aspects of research might be paid for by levy. There is also the possibility that costs incurred in the course of implementing the beef carcase classification scheme may be separately met by levy. We do not know this. We hope not. But, the consequence of this progression of increasing the levies on cattle slaughtered within the State would be to encourage live exports across the land boundary into Northern Ireland.

All parties in this House have been laying great stress on the need to slaughter the maximum number of animals within the State and to process the meat to the maximum extent within the State, in order to give the maximum employment. If this process continues—and this is a significant one that we are dealing with here today and may be only part of a series—and if levies are added to the cost of slaughter, the incentive will be to export animals live and the opportunity for giving employment both in slaughtering and further processing will be lost and the very welcome trend of recent years where more slaughterings have been taking place within the State will be reversed. That will be very undesirable from the national point of view and is a matter about which one must express the gravest concern.

The Minister has said that the cost of the veterinary inspection is not being fully met even by the increased fees and the suggestion seems to be that he believes that in an ideal situation the levy should pay for the full cost of veterinary inspection. If that is the Minister's opinion, he should say so because farmers will then know that it is his intention to increase the levy yet again. If, on the other hand, he does not believe that farmers should pay the full cost of the inspection through the levy, he should say exactly what proportion he believes is the correct one and, again, farmers will know where they stand. At the present time, because the Minister has said that it does not cover the full cost but has left vague the appropriate proportion of the full cost he believes should be paid in the ultimate situation as distinct from this present measure, which it may be implied by the way the Minister has treated of it is just a temporary measure, the farmer is left in the dark as to the full and final intentions of the Minister in this matter. I should like to have a clear statement from the Minister as to his long-term intentions.

I should also like to ask the Minister if he would consider, if he has not already done so, having a detailed investigation of the cost and the efficiency of the service which is being carried out at the factories. I notice he has said that this current increase was the subject of an investigation by the National Prices Commission. It would be desirable, if this has not been done already, that the National Prices Commission be asked through their consultants to investigate the efficiency of the service to see if there are possibilities for savings and if there are possibilities for using different grades of personnel for some of the tasks involved.

Obviously, whatever we do, we must employ sufficient staff and staff of a sufficiently high grade to ensure that the results of the inspection are accepted in all foreign markets. That would be the overriding consideration in any study which would be carried out on this matter. But perhaps it would be appropriate to make enquiries as to the type of staff and number of staff involved in this sort of work in other countries to see if there is room for greater efficiency in the inspection service here in Ireland.

Broadly speaking, the amount of money involved—an extra £1 million— being taken from the farming community to pay for these levies is not in itself a large amount but, when seen as part of a process of what one might call backdoor farmer taxation which has been adopted by the present Government, in addition to straight-forward farmer taxation, the trend expressed in this motion is one which gives me the gravest concern and this motion, if the trend continues, could endanger employment in the meat processing industry in this State. For those two reasons I express the greatest reservations about this motion.

I must confess to having a vested interest in this matter because I am a director of a meat factory. I suppose that would colour my attitude towards this motion. The increase of a further 100 per cent in the levy in relation to meat inspection about to be imposed is a harsh increase and it is most unfortunate at this time for the development of the meat industry. Up to now, by and large, a factory, when it takes in meat on the hoof does not deduct a charge from the farmer. The bill comes every half year and the factory pays it every half year.

The profit margin must be good.

No. The Minister is well aware of the situation in Clover Meats, for instance. A deduction at the rate of £1 per beast is a substantial deduction. The farmer will now be charged £1 by the factory directly for inspecting the beast simply because the charge would be too heavy for them to bear. For instance, a large factory might have a throughput of 3,000-4,000 head of cattle a week over a period of four-five months. That is £3,000 a week, for 12 weeks a total of £36,000. That is an expense which I do not think the meat factory will bear and the factory will attempt to deduct an amount directly from the price paid for the animal sent in by the farmer. To that extent the charge will be passed on to the farmer and, as Deputy Bruton has said, it is a method of farmer taxation. Because of the distinctly high cost it will be an extra tax on the farmer, whereas before the factory carried the expense themselves. That is quite clear. The meat factories are now carrying the cost of meat inspection in boning plants, officially called cutting-up premises, which are separate from abbatoirs. Up to now there was no levy charged for the inspection of boning and packing of meats in boning plants which are not attached to separate abbatoirs. To that extent there is a subsidy.

It is a fact that factories are conscious of veterinary inspection, and it is to the credit of the veterinary inspection staff of the Department that the standard of the meat produced in the factories and exported is now extremely high. I am sure the Minister would agree that a word of praise is due, and I include in the veterinary staff not only the veterinary surgeons who do excellent work but also the agricultural officers who have quite an amount of paper work. In some factories they now inspect lambs going to France and they have successfully taken on this extra task. They are a staff of which we can be proud. They have done no small work in ensuring that our veterinary standards are high and that our export reputation is maintained. Because the charge per beast—sheep or pig—is now so high, I feel that the factories will be forced to make a direct deduction from the money being paid to the farmer.

I thank Deputies Bruton and Collins for contributing to our consideration of this motion. I am now reasonably certain that it is the policy of the Fine Gael Party that the tax-payer should pick up the bill for veterinary inspections in meat factories. If this is not the case, the expressions of shock, dismay and horror to which we have been listening during the past few minutes would not have been uttered. It is well in an important matter like this to know the attitudes of different groups in the House towards this problem. I now know that Fine Gael wish the taxpayers to pay most, if not all, of the cost of veterinary fees. I must assume that it is all, because if it is otherwise they did not mention the proportion.

Nor did the Minister.

Deputy Bruton asked whether it is my opinion that the total cost should be borne in due course. This is the ideal situation, but I do not think it is reasonable in a buoyant market for beef, mutton and pigmeat to say that these should be borne by some other sector of the community.

It is worth noting in passing that in the catalogue of adjustments, like the removal of the phosphate subsidy and the cheese subsidy, Deputy Bruton did not allude to other adjustments such as the reintroduction of the lamb export extension scheme which was made necessary by the failure of the Government of which Deputy Bruton was a supporter to find a market for our sheep. This was restored by our Government at very considerable cost until a market was found for our lamb. Deputy Bruton did not advert to the fact that the amount of money paid by the Government in reactor compensation was a great deal bigger than the alleged and factual loss incurred by farmers in the removal of the phosphate subsidy. It was a great deal bigger in real terms. Speaking from recollection, it was about £3½ million extra. It is necessary and very desirable, when considering additions and subtractions, to take them all into account. If not, one gets a false picture.

Deputy Bruton has a false picture about this. He went on to say that the raising of the veterinary inspection fees in meat factories would tend to produce an increase in our live exports, which in turn would lead to disemployment in our meat factories and the running down of the plants themselves. In short, this is absolute moonshine. I would expect from the new classification scheme when it comes into operation an increase in producer prices. That is what it is about. We cannot continue to sell the products of our cattle herd in an unorganised, unidentified way. It will bring a positive result for the producers. I do not anticipate that there will be any difficulty at all. Certainly, failure to get a good carcase grading will carry its own penalty in that the better grades will fetch higher prices. This is reasonable and has been whole-heartedly accepted by the farming organisations.

Deputy Bruton also made a short reference to the possible desirability of introducing other grades of personnel into the business of meat inspection. I am sorry that he did not elaborate on this because I should be glad to know the views of his party on this interesting question. He also said that we should carry out an examination to find out if the standard of performance in meat inspection is being properly maintained. He differed a little from his colleague, Deputy E. Collins, who said that the standard of inspection and the standard of hygiene in our factories are maintained at a very high level by the veterinary inspection staff. Deputy Collins may be unique in his own meat plant in not lifting off the old 45p carcase inspection fee and in not passing on the real cost to the consumer. Other factories do so. They actually write it on the return which the producer receives from the factory. Presumably this will be continued in the future.

I said it was only some factories.

I felt that it was the universal practice. I did not know that Collins Brothers, being more benevolent than the rest, bore the cost themselves.

In the interests of farming prosperity.

The Deputy's benevolence is a model that should be copied by all the other meat processing firms.

I do not think that will happen under the new levy.

It is true that farmers will not like paying £1 rather than 45p. We have not had the benefit of the Labour Party's views on this, but Fine Gael are building a case on a 0.3 per cent chart. According to Deputy Bruton the future of the trade is being impaired. I do not think this will present any great difficulties. I am glad to see that the beef and mutton trades are buoyant. If I might be permitted a certain amount of self-congratulation, I have helped to make it that way and it will be my intention to keep it in that position.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 64; Níl, 38.

  • Ahern, Kit.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Andrews, Niall.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Callanan, John.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Colley, George.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Farrell, Joe.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin
  • South-Central).
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Fitzsimons, James N.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Fox, Christopher J.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Dennis.
  • Gibbons, Jim.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Keegan, Seán.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Killeen, Tim.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Murphy, Ciarán P.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Birmingham, Joseph.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Joan.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Michael J.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • D'Arcy, Michael J.
  • Deasy, Martin A.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, John F.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Horgan, John.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kerrigan, Pat.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • O'Brien, William.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Lalor and Briscoe: Níl, Deputies B. Desmond and McMahon.
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn