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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 4 May 1978

Vol. 306 No. 3

Adjournment Debate. - Bula Mines Documents.

I wish to make clear that I do not present this matter as being a major scandal or anything of that kind. I do not want to make an excessive meal of it and I am not trying to inflate the importance of a relatively unimportant item in the Government's work. I am concerned mostly with explaining to the House and to the people that this episode in a small and modest way is an indication of the style and quality of government with which we are fixed until the next election.

When the Minister as a Deputy in Opposition more than a year ago was dealing with the Bill relating to Bula, in the months of February and March and up to the time of the election he added to the list of absolutely non-negotiable points to which his party were committed the publication of the Bula agreement. Everybody in the House, no matter how short his memory, all the Press and the people outside who follow politics will recall that there was a substantial list of matters to which Fianna Fáil were irrevocably committed before the last election. They were willing to sell their souls for the 50-mile fishing limit and to give their lives for the abolition of ground rents. No less conspicuous in their list of priorities was the publication of the Bula agreement, which the Minister's predecessor, Senator Keating, had refused to do. These were absolutely non-negotiable things.

We have seen what happened about the 50-mile limit. I recall Senator Ryan saying that we should reconsider our Community membership if we did not get our way. We have seen what has happened to the purported abolition of ground rents. Now we are seeing what has happened in regard to the publication of the Bula agreement.

In connection with this publication, when the Minister was in Opposition and spokesman on this topic, he expended unlimited rhetoric on the impropriety, as he held, of the Dáil passing a Bill which contains six references to an agreement which was not itself appended to the Bill and which the House was not being allowed to see. The limit of this rhetorical trip of the Minister's, if I may call it that, was reached on 8 February last year when he invited the House to consider the provisions of the Constitution which he said required the President to promulgate a law once he had signed it.

He asked the House to consider the position of the President on being asked to sign and promulgate a law which contained references of a kind which the Members of the House could not evaluate because the agreement was not in front of them. He said in Volume 296, column 993:

The Minister is asking us to ratify something that none of us has ever seen. Does the Minister realise the consequences of asking this Parliament to do such a thing? I wonder is it realised by the Government that one of the basic necessities of law in western jurisprudence is promulgation. Law is not law, even if it is passed by this or any other Parliament unless it is promulgated to the people. If this Bill is passed without publication of the agreement, what is the law?

He said in the next column:

I would address my remarks to the ultimate guardian of the Constitutional rights of the people, that is, the President of Ireland. I am aware that he is abroad at present but will return on Friday.

The President had this item served up to him on the Friday when he got back. He was to investigate his constitutional situation in regard to this Bula Bill in the light of the fact that the Bill did not contain or disclose all the elements of the deal in which the State was to become involved.

I make the Minister a present of something. I personally shared a certain feeling of question in my mind about the very point he mentioned about putting into a Bill references to something which the Bill does not contain. I make the Minister a present of that and he can make what he likes of it. Had he been in my party or I in his, had we been discussing the thing on some other level or had subsequent history not turned out as it did, I would not make much of a point of the argument which he developed with great force on 8 February 1977.

What happened when the Minister reached office? After allowing about six months to elapse he called a press conference in order to publish this Bula agreement. I will tell the House at once why I think matters turned out as they did. I believe, the delay between July and January was accounted for not only by the very large number of other preoccupations the Minister had but by the fact that his Department were begging him not to do the thing which in Opposition he had threatened to do. I believe his Department were imploring him to stick to the principle which his predecessor had enunciated and which every Government of all complexions previously had respected, not to publish agreements involving private interests.

I recognise that the reference inside a Bill to an agreement gives the matter an arguably different complexion. I will not dispute that point. Nonetheless, that was the principle adhered to through thick and thin. As the Minister's predecessor admitted to the House, he could quite easily have achieved the same economic result in regard to the Bula Mines via the IDA. We need not now discuss whether he was right or wrong in making that decision. I am not concerned with raising that point again. I hope when the Minister comes to reply he will not spend the time allotted to him in going over that ground again because I am not concerned with it. It is not to raise that that I kept the House sitting here after 5 o'clock.

I believe his Department officials tried to prevail on him not to go through with his declared intention in Opposition. I believe in an effort— from the point of view of the officials concerned I must say it was a public spirited effort—to save something from the wreckage they said to him "Look, publish the agreement if you have to but at least do not publish the accounts." I have no spies in the Minister's Department and I have heard nothing from inside his Department and nobody in his Department or connected with it has spoken to me about this matter, discussed it with me or been in contact with me in any way whatever. I believe, as a matter of intuition, that his Department officials tried to prevail on him not to do this. When they saw that he had no political option but to publish something they prevailed on him at least not to publish the accounts which were an integral part of the agreement.

I want to make another admission to the Minister. It is quite true that the general lines of the Bula deal were visible without publication of the accounts. It is also true, as the Minister repeatedly stressed from these benches, that what the State was doing in the Bula deal was acquiring a share in the company. I do not believe anybody would feel happy about dealing in a company unless he knew what the company were worth, what their assets and liabilities were worth.

That matter was specifically provided for in the course of this agreement. On page 2 of the document called Bula Limited, Inter-Party Agreement, which the Minister laid before the House the accounts are defined as:

The Consolidated Balance Sheet of the Company as at the relevant accounting date a copy of which is annexed hereto and for the purposes of identification signed by or on behalf of each of the parties hereto.

These accounts were referred to at seven different places in the course of the body of the agreement. One could not understand the agreement or assess the value of this company unless one had access to the accounts. On pages 12 and 13 of the agreement, paragraph 5.04 (a) there is a reference to the accounts in the following terms:

The Accounts have been prepared in accordance with the requirements of the relevant statutes and in accordance with good accountancy practice and are true and accurate in all respects and show a true and fair view of the state of affairs of the Company as at the relevant accounting date and full disclosure and provision is made in the Accounts of all actual liabilities and proper provision or note of all contingent or other liabilities whether quantified or not and of all financial commitments of the Company in existence at the relevant accounting date.

These accounts are not disclosed to us and we are not able to assess what exactly is being aimed at or contemplated by paragraph 5.04 (a). The second reference is on page 14, paragraph 5.05 which states:

The Accounts make full provision and reserves for all taxation or other sums payable for which the Company at the relevant accounting date was or may have become liable to be assessed...

On page 17 there is a reference to the accounts as disclosing the value of plant. On the same page there is a reference to the accounts disclosing the value of the company's stock. On page 18 there is a reference to the accounts disclosing an absence of guarantees or unusual liabilities except as disclosed in the accounts there. In other words, unless one could see the accounts one would not know the extent of the guarantees or unusual liabilities which the company had taken upon themselves. Also on the same page there is reference to an absence of charges on loan capital and on the next page again there is a reference to the accounts as disclosing the situation in regard to book debts owing to the company.

I accept that the publication of the rest of the agreement did disclose the general lines of the deal, but these are all matters highly relevant to the value of what the State is acquiring. I say, from intuition only, that the Minister's official advice was to try to save something from the wreck by not publishing those accounts. At the press conference which the Minister called early in January he had a large number of pressmen in and he handed in this document, I presume simultaneously with, or possibly shortly after he had gone through, the formalities of laying it before the Dáil. The same is true in regard to the Tara lease, with which I am not concerned on this occasion. He did not insert in this agreement before the Dáil a note to the effect that the agreement was not what it purported on the cover to be. Mark you, this was something laid before the Dáil, not merely disclosed or passed out to a press conference. He did not include a note saying that the accounts referred to at no fewer than seven pages in the agreement, not counting the definition section, were not included for whatever reason he might have thought fit to give, nor did he say anything about that at the press conference. When asked by me at the beginning of last week whether he had told the press conference that the accounts were not being published, his reply, which I am sorry to say I regard as a prevarication, was that he did not recall having been asked by the press conference about that. You call a press conference not to invite questions but to distribute gratuitous enlightenment to persons who otherwise would not have bothered to show up at your office. That is no reply to the charge that this agreement is incomplete. The answer he gave here last week was wrong and misleading when he told the House that it was a complete answer.

I would point out to Deputy Kelly that it is the practice of this House always to accept a statement from a Minister or any other Deputy. If they say that they have not misled the House, as the Minister has said, Deputy Kelly and every other Deputy must accept that.

I will not hammer that point.

Deputy Kelly must accept that. The Minister has already made it clear that he made no attempt to mislead the House, and that must be accepted.

I am inclined to do so anyway. He may be cuter than I think, but it seemed to me that he was somewhat taken by surprise and it may be that he did not himself know the way this thing was being presented. That of course has to be put to his account as it would be put to the account of any political head of a Department.

In the copy laid before the Dáil and in the copies given to the press conference nothing was said about this omission, and I believe that it was intended by someone, either the Minister himself or someone for whom he is responsible, that this omission would escape notice. When the Minister said on 25 April 1978, as reported in Volume 305, column 1266 of the Official Report, that he was not aware that a deletion had taken place, I accept that he was not aware of it. He also said that he did not intend any misleading. I have to ask, not with personal reference to himself but with reference to the operations for which he is trying to claim credit, if he did not intend misleading why can we not have a positive statement that I am wrong in asserting, as I now do, that the reference to the accounts in the index of contents was deleted from this agreement which is before the Dáil, before it was laid before the House? If the intention was simply to leave the accounts out and explain that if anyone happened to ask about it, why go to the trouble of deleting the reference to the accounts from the index of contents?

I do not want to make a meal of this. It is not a major scandal; it is a shabby piece of sleeveen Government and I feel obliged to call attention to it as such. I do not want to go back over the rights and wrongs of the Bula deal. I am dealing with the purported redemption by the Minister of an undertaking which he gave in Opposition. If ever a man was stuck with an undertaking, a point of view or a theme in Opposition, the Minister was stuck with this. He was committed to the principle of full disclosure. He called down fire and brimstone on the Constitution and the President downwards because we were passing a Bill which contained six references which could not be evaluated. He himself has published something which contains seven references which cannot be evaluated. Politically he is trying to have the thing both ways. He is trying to do what he does under another hat. When prices are coming down the Minister wishes to announce a reduction in this or that, but if prices go up it is the poor old Prices Commission or his Department or the Government who are stuck with it. He is willing to wound but afraid to strike. He has not the courage of his convictions in regard to a full publication, nor has he the straightforwardness that one should properly expect from a Minister in his position.

I say for the third time that I do not present this issue to the House as a major scandal or anything of that kind. That is why I have taken the course of raising it in this half-hour format rather than putting down a full motion about it or trying to raise it in any more heavy-handed way. However, it is a shabby little example of poor government and it is another example of how the party to which the Minister belongs, who were supposed to be irrevocably committed, turn out once they are in Government to be not so non-negotiable after all.

I do not know if it is necessary for me to reply to the performance of the last 20 minutes because it is so petty and childish that I do not think anybody other than Deputy Kelly would bother to indulge in the sort of prolonged complaint that he has or try to read so much into it. One requires a fairly convoluted mentality to find anything wrong in what he alleges I did. Deputy Kelly is complaining on the one hand, very bitterly and at length as only he can, about my alleged breach of confidentiality in publishing this agreement between my predecessors and Bula Limited, although there is plenty of precedent for publication of agreement between the State and private interests. My predecessor, although I pressed him many times and he had a lot of research done on it, was unable to point out to me any Bill introduced into this House to ratify an agreement which was not itself published. On the other hand, Deputy Kelly is also complaining about my not publishing the private accounts of a private company. There is no precedent for any Minister at any time to publish the accounts of a private company. The Deputy cannot have it both ways. It seems to me that the man's mind is so convoluted that he is tied up in knots and cannot follow his own argument. It is almost pathetic to have to listen to this sort of childish whingeing and complaining that he has been engaging in. At no time did I suggest that I would publish or wanted published the accounts of this private company. I never had any intention of publishing them. I should have thought that was taken for granted by everybody except, apparently, Deputy Kelly. There was no attempt whatever to mislead anyone because, as the Deputy says, apart from the reference in the definition section at the beginning of this agreement, there are seven further references in the agreement to the accounts. How am I supposed to be trying to hush up the accounts or to mislead anybody into believing that the accounts never existed when I published a document in which they are referred to at least eight times?

This question was raised here on 25 April and Deputy Kelly told me that, on what he referred to as "Roman V", there was a line omitted in relation to the accounts. He was referring to the end of the table of contents. I was not aware whether there was a line left out but I inquired whether this was the case. Since then I have looked at the original. There is another line—accounts 1967 to 1970 something—but that is after the signatures and after all the schedules. It did not form part of the agreement and was put in simply as a matter of convenience. Apparently when the document was being copied— and this was done by way of photo copy—an official in my Department noticed this reference but since it was taken for granted by everybody that the accounts were not being published, he thought, and rightly so, that if he left in this reference it would confuse and perhaps mislead people into thinking that they had received incomplete copies or that they should have received the accounts. The official concerned decided, in order that neither the Dáil nor the public would be misled, to delete the reference to the word "accounts" and to the two page numbers in respect of it. I thoroughly endorse his action. He acted absolutely properly and if I had been consulted about the matter I would have agreed with what he was doing. I take full responsibility for what he did because if he had allowed the reference to remain, which is apparently what Deputy Kelly would have wanted, I, through his action, would have misled the Dáil and the public.

It is difficult to understand how such a minor incident could cause this song and dance. That is the cause of all this row. If the official concerned had not acted in that way I would have been in a position to say to him that he was at least potentially misleading the people but neither he nor I misled them in any way.

Would the Minister say, then, that he made full disclosure which is what I understood he was calling for a year ago?

I did not call a year ago for disclosure of the accounts. I called for the agreement.

But the agreement contains the accounts.

Deputy Kelly has had his opportunity. The Minister to conclude.

It does not contain the accounts. I can only assume that Deputy Kelly is asking me to publish the accounts now or, in other words, to do something that no other Minister has done since the foundation of the State. I can only assume that the Deputy is calling for the publication of the accounts, but I am not prepared to comply with his request without the consent of Bula Limited. However, I will have it conveyed to them that Deputy Kelly wants their accounts published and I shall await their reaction.

From my point of view it would suit me very well to publish the accounts because I spent a lot of time in the House demonstrating that this deal was perhaps the worst commercial deal that any member of an Irish Government had ever been involved in or had ever got the unfortunate taxpayer into. The accounts would more than bear out my view of the matter.

Why has the Minister not said that?

I am not prepared to create what would be a bad precedent and, consequently, I do not propose to accede to the Deputy's request.

I did not make that request.

It is incredible that he should be asking me to publish accounts, something for which he knows there is no precedent, while at the same time complaining because I published an agreement, something for which there is plenty of precedent and about which even he seems to agree should have been published because of legislation that was passed here ratifying the agreement.

The Minister is trying to get the political credit for publishing the agreement while trying to get credit for the company for not publishing the accounts. He is trying to be on both sides at once.

The Minister to conclude.

Poor Deputy Kelly lives in such a narrow-minded little world that he thinks everyone else looks on matters in the same way as he does. I assure him that is not so.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 9 May 1978.

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