Vol. 306 No. 5
asked the Minister for Labour if he has received proposals from the Director-General of AnCO in relation to the educational release of apprentices undergoing one year off-the-job training in training centres; and, if so, if he will outline the nature of the proposals.
9.
asked the Minister for Labour if he is aware of the concern expressed in educational circles regarding the educational release of apprentices from the AnCO training centres.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 8 and 9 together. Educational release for apprentices was provided for in the AnCO proposals for a new apprenticeship scheme published in October 1975. These proposals had as their objective the provision of more effective training for apprentices both by way of formal instruction and on-the-job experience. After widespread discussion and consultation with the relevant interests, these proposals were adopted and the new apprenticeship scheme came into operation on 1 October 1976.
One of the provisions of that scheme was that apprentices would be released to the vocational education sector for formal instruction for at least one day per week during the academic year of 36 weeks or, alternatively, be provided with such formal instruction on block release for an equivalent period during the first three years of their apprenticeship. The question of the appropriate educational release for apprentices is now being reviewed by officers of the Department of Education, my Department and of AnCO.
Could the Minister say how long the review will take?
The review is already in progress. Discussions have taken place and I am optimistic that we will fairly shortly have a concrete solution to the problem that has arisen.
10.
asked the Minister for Labour if there has been a change of policy by AnCO, in relation to the use of regional technical colleges for training purposes; if so, why the change was made; if sections of some colleges, specially built for training purposes, are unused at present; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
There has been no change of policy by AnCO in relation to the use of regional technical colleges for training purposes. It continues to be AnCO's policy in consultation with the Department of Education to use whatever appropriate facilities are available in the educational sector. Indeed at present discussions are taking place between AnCO and my Department and the Department of Education in this regard.
Is the Minister aware of reports that a special section was built in the regional technical college in Waterford for the purpose of training and is now lying unused?
I am aware that statements have been made by various interested groups in the educational sector to the effect that there are spare facilities in some regional technical colleges but the Department of Education have not made any statement to this effect. I would also like to give the Deputy an idea about some of the uses presently being made of facilities in the vocational schools and colleges: for example, the provision of courses of technical education for about 10,000 apprentices each year either on day release or block release courses; fulltime off-the-job training for about 72 apprentices in the following colleges—the College of Technology, Bolton Street, Moyross Technical College, Limerick, Letterkenny Regional Technical College and Cork Regional Technical College, all providing special courses for apprentices on a block release basis for apprentices who become unemployed or redundant, together with the provision of special courses aimed at career orientation for young persons who have left school and are seeking their first job.
The Minister did not mention Waterford which was the specific one I mentioned. Has there been any change in plan in relation to the use of the regional technical college in Waterford?
As I stated, there has been no change. I am aware various groups have stated there are spare training facilities in some technical colleges but the Department of Education have not made any such statement and, I said, discussions are currently taking place in this whole area.
11.
asked the Minister for Labour whether it is proposed to alter the ratio between the number of instructors and apprentices at AnCO training centres; and if he will provide details of any such changes.
Negotiations are currently taking place between the management of AnCO and the Workers' Union of Ireland on a productivity agreement, an element of which would be the ratio between the number of instructors and apprentices at AnCO training centres. Pending the conclusion of these negotiations, it would not be appropriate for me to elaborate on the proposed agreement.
Is it possible for the Minister to give a blank figure in a situation like this on the lines of the primary school 30 children per teacher? Is it possible to say what is the optimum figure in the AnCO situation?
It varies between skills. A balance has to be struck between an economic ratio and a practical ratio. To give an example, in some skills it may be one instructor to 12 trainees and in other cases it may vary. In motor mechanics and special types of welding the ratio is lower—one to eight or one to six.
The Minister will not be impeded in any way by lack of finance in achieving the optimum in his negotiations with the unions who are concerned with productivity agreements but ultimately, presumably, the Minister hopes for what he considers to be the optimum ratio in each trade. Will he be inhibited in any way by lack of finance?
I would expect not. Pending the conclusion of these negotiations I would not like to make any statement on it, but my desire would be that it should be economically acceptable and practically beneficial to the apprentices and the trainees concerned.
12.
asked the Minister for Labour if he is aware that two young men (details supplied) from the Connemara Gaeltacht, County Galway, whose home and school language is exclusively Irish, felt themselves disadvantaged in their interviews for AnCO training schemes, because their suitability interview was not conducted in the Irish language; and the steps he intends to take to end this clear discrimination against young people from the Connemara Gaeltacht seeking training in a new skill.
I have been informed that the two young men in question were given an aptitude test but failed to reach the qualifying mark and therefore did not undergo an interview.
The tests which are now applied to assess the suitability of applicants for participation in AnCO training courses were devised outside this country and are used internationally. There is no Irish version of these tests at present available but I have given instructions that a substitute test in the Irish language should be devised. Discussions on this are proceeding.
I welcome that statement. It seems most unfair that young people whose families persist in using Irish and will not use English should be discriminated against in this way. What is the position about young people of this kind? Will they have to wait until new tests in Irish are ready? Can it be assumed that they failed the aptitude test because of difficulties with the language? From personal knowledge of these boys I can assure the Minister that this is more than likely true. Can they have another go at the aptitude test as soon as possible?
I am not aware of the reasons for their failure in the aptitude test. I do not think it appropriate that AnCO should inform me why any student failed such a test. If the Deputy has a particular belief and if that is the position, there is one possible option open, that is, the Gweedore centre in the Gaeltacht area. I will certainly review the position of what advantage it would be to those young people to have a second chance at an aptitude test in Galway or the Gaeltacht training centre in Gweedore.
Will it be possible for young people in the Connemara Gaeltacht to get bilingual lectures? Is AnCO, as in Galway University, staffed by people who are bilingual?
My information is that there is operating in the Connemara Gaeltacht area a number of mobile training centres. I understand these courses can be given in Irish or English, depending on what the majority in a class opt for.
My question was: in the AnCO course in Galway will there be lectures in Irish for people whose language is exclusively Irish?
The Deputy will appreciate the difficulties there may be for an organisation like AnCO to have two separate courses, one in Irish and one in English. From an overall efficiency point of view the more desirable thing would be to have such a course in one or the other language. In the mobile centres used in the Connemara area this facility is available on a majority basis of the class numbers.
13.
asked the Minister for Labour if he is aware of the criticism made by the chairman of the Construction Industry Federation in relation to the AnCO apprenticeship scheme; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I have seen the recent Press statement made by the president of the Construction Industry Federation in relation to the training of apprentices in that industry involving criticism of AnCO in that connection.
I have also seen the statement issued by the director general of AnCO in response to that criticism and I am fully satisfied from inquiries I have made that the position is as stated by the director general.
Deputies will also have read the Press report of a recent statement on this matter by the chairman of the apprentice committee of the College of Technology, Kevin Street, Dublin.
The Minister will be aware that the contents of the statement of the president of the Construction Industry Federation were very serious. The president implied that there were vacancies for up to 1,400 apprentices in the building industry but for the neglect of AnCO. Would the Minister care to comment on that statement?
I have also seen the statement by the director general. In 1977 alone AnCO spent £1.2 million on training nearly 400 apprentices for the construction industry. In those circumstances, and with that contribution to training, it seems an unfair criticism. I would also draw the Deputy's attention to a statement by the chairman of the Committee of the College of Technology, Kevin Street.
In reference to the statement by the director general of AnCO, he does not say that what the president of the Construction Industry Federation said was untrue. He does not deny that there are up to 1,400 vacancies for apprentices in the construction industry. I want to know from this Minister, who is responsible for creating jobs, what he has done to rectify that situation, whoever is to blame?
Nobody is saying that any situation has to be rectified or that anybody is to blame. I am pointing out the facts of the situation. Other industries recruit and train their own apprentices to meet their future needs at their own expense with the assistance of AnCO. In this case a very substantial sum of money was spent in 1977 for training 400 apprentices for the building and construction industry and this will continue. I believe AnCO are providing a very useful service to the building industry.
This is a very serious matter dealing with employment for young people and I know the Minister is concerned about it. There are two sides to this argument. I hold no brief for the Construction Industry Federation.
The Deputy is making a statement.
Here we have a situation where there is said to be employment for 1,400 young people. Will the Minister take some action to clear whatever bottleneck exists?
What I have been saying to the Deputy is that primarily the responsibility for the cost of training must rest with the industry itself. I believe and I am convinced that AnCO are making a very worth-while contribution to training for the construction industry as instanced by the amount of money spent last year.
Is the Minister telling the House that young people seeking employment can go and get stuffed because he will not take any action?
I am not saying that. Do not be silly.
That is the effect of what he is saying
Do not be ridiculous.
Question No. 14.
One final supplementary?
Would the Minister discuss with the construction industry the criticisms of the president?
I have already answered that.
I am calling Question No. 14.
14.
asked the Minister for Labour if any request has been made to him to meet the apprentices' sub-committee of the Students Union of the College of Technology, Kevin Street, Dublin, or of any other such college, to discuss the reduction in off-the-job training introduced by AnCO; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I have not received a request as such from the apprentice sub-committee of the USI at the College of Technology, Kevin Street, or of any other college to meet me in connection with the training of apprentices.
Is the Minister prepared to meet representatives from that committee?
The Minister will always consider any request from a group with a problem. I am aware of the comments made and of certain concerns in the area, and I want to assure the Deputy that this whole question relates to some of the earlier points raised. This question is being discussed by the Department of Education, my officers and AnCO. I am optimistic that a satisfactory decision will be reached shortly.
