asked the Minister for Justice the steps his Department have taken as a result of representations many months ago in relation to the activities of a company (details supplied) engaged in providing an alleged window insulation service, the principals of which have since left the country and in respect of which company many people are owed substantial sums of money.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Investigation of Company.
25.
My Department are not involved in investigations of this kind and when the Deputy telephoned my private office about the matter some time ago he was advised to get in touch with the Garda Síochána or, more specifically, the Central Detective Unit, Dublin Castle.
I am informed by the Garda authorities that certain complaints were made to them about some of the activities of the company in question. The Garda have carried out an investigation with a view to seeing if there was evidence of any criminal actions, as distinct from possible breaches of contract which would not be a matter for the Garda. The Garda have only very recently completed their investigation and they have now submitted their report to the Law Offices for a decision.
Am I right in assuming that, in circumstances where a report would be transmitted to the office of the Minister for Justice about a company who seemed likely on the basis of available evidence and common sense to be about to flee the country with people's money in their back pocket, his Department in effect are helpless to do anything about it and in this case apparently did nothing about it?
I repeat for the Deputy the first part of my reply where I said that the Department of Justice are not involved in investigations of the kind that he has under question here today, that the Garda did investigate the matter and that as a result of a report of theirs which has recently come to hand this matter has gone to the Law Officers for a decision on the matter.
Is the Minister aware that the Garda indicated to at least a number of people who complained about the probable defection of the principals involved in this company that they would be unable to do anything at all about the situation until after the problem would arise, which obviously, from the nature of the facts in this case, would be far too late?
I cannot comment on what the Deputy says.
To whom precisely should a member of the public go if not to the Minister for Justice in circumstances where it is likely that a fraud will be perpetrated on hundreds of innocent people?
For the second time this afternoon I give to the Deputy the advice that I gave to him when he contacted my private office, that is, that he should have approached and persons like him should approach the Central Detective Unit of the Garda Síochána, Dublin Castle.
The Garda are loath to become involved where they feel that the question is a breach of contract or fraud. Would the Minister consider that the Garda might have approached the firm concerned saying that complaints had been received and in this way perhaps help the situation? I realise the dilemma that the Garda are in in such a case.
A question, please.
Their very presence at the doors of a company might sometimes help to resolve the problem.
I recognise the difficulties in this type of case, but the Garda did investigate it and their report has now gone to the Law Officers to see what action can and will be taken. Beyond that I cannot comment.
It is anticipating a crime. What mechanism is there in a situation where responsible people bring to his attention or the attention of the Garda Síochána that a crime is likely to be committed? What possibility is there of his Department or the Garda acting to anticipate that and to prevent it?
The Deputy should appreciate that the Department of Justice and the Minister for Justice have no investigative powers whatever.
Would the Minister answer the part of the question relating to the Garda Síochána? In each reply the Minister has avoided the basic issue, which is that when this eventually passed to the Garda Síochána the Minister was then not prepared to be a channel of communication for that purpose, as apparently and allegedly they were unable to or did not take action in time to prevent people leaving.
I have already said——
Is there nothing that can be done in such circumstances?
——that I have no investigative powers. I have already said that the matter should have been referred to the Garda Síochána.
Deputies
It was.
Would the Deputies please wait?
We are waiting quite a while to get a reply.
Let them bridle their impatience for a second or two and hear me out and then they will not be confusing themselves. The matter was referred to the Garda Síochána, an investigation was carried out by them, and the report of their investigation has been submitted to the Law Officers for a direction. That is the system which operates.
The Minister has told us that four times.
Please wait. I am sorry if I cannot give the Deputy the answer he wants. I say for the second time that I cannot comment on the allegation made by Deputy Keating that the Garda did nothing. I do not know. I have not even seen the report.
Finally, was the investigation carried out subsequent to the phone calls and to the defection of the principals of this company or prior to their defection?
I repeat for the Deputy that I have not seen the Garda report. I do not see Garda reports in these matters.
I ask the Minister to acquaint himself with the facts of the situation and to accept that, if he is at this stage unable to ascertain what the Garda report said some four to five months after the company principals have fled the country, there is not a lot of chance of the people who have suffered on account of this getting any sort of justice.
Somebody should have informed the Deputy of my functions in this matter. If I were exercising the functions which the Deputy thinks I should, perhaps he and his party members would be the first to cry "stop". He did not even know where to make this complaint in the first place.
I did.
(Cavan-Monaghan): Surely the Minister is responsible for the Garda Síochána and he has the overall responsibility for the enforcement of law and order. Would it not appear from his attitude here that he has simply washed his hands of it? It seems likely.
No, I did not say that, but I have told the House on a number of occasions that I, as Minister for Justice, have no investigative powers whatsoever and nobody should know that better than Deputy Tom Fitzpatrick, Cavan-Monaghan.
Nobody has suggested that the Minister has but would the Minister have less of a duty to take action to prevent a crime being committed than an ordinary citizen would, who, if told a crime is likely to be committed, would immediately get in touch with the Garda Síochána? Is the Minister saying that, when he is told, he has not even that duty and, secondly, would he answer the question as to whether in fact in a case such as this, when the gardaí are informed, as they were informed, they can take action to prevent a crime being committed or whether they cannot?
I have more than once answered satisfactorily the supplementary questions put to me.
Tell that to the marines.