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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Nov 1978

Vol. 310 No. 2

Adjournment Debate. - London-Irish Centre.

On two occasions within the past six months I have raised by way of parliamentary question the matter of the Irish Centre in Camden Square, London, but on neither occasion was I given a satisfactory reply. Consequently I am forced to raise the question on the adjournment this evening.

My question of Thursday last to the Minister for Foreign Affairs asked the financial aid, if any, which the Government intend making available to the Irish Centre at Camden Square, London. That question was tabled also in the name of Deputy Donnellan but unfortunately it was merged with another question which concerned the rate of immigration to this country. Consequently, the relevance of our question seemed to have been lost. Therefore, I wish to have the matter clarified this evening.

Emigrants from here to Great Britain are regarded in Britain as the forgotten community. Emigration has been a safety valve for this country for many years. It has solved many of our unemployment and social problems but as a race we have not made any effort to improve the lot of those people who had to emigrate to Britain. This is something of which we should all be thoroughly ashamed. Successive Governments must share the blame. The problem has been in existence for many years but no attempt has been made to resolve it. Now, when there is considerably more affluence in the country than was the case in the past, there is all the more reason for making some attempt to help our emigrants in Britain.

As a result of the mass emigration of the past 50 years we have gained considerably in terms of moneys that otherwise would have had to be paid by way of unemployment and social welfare benefits. In addition we gained by way of moneys sent home to relatives by emigrants. Although the rate of emigration slowed down during the past ten years, there are indications that it is increasing considerably again and that situation makes all the more necessary the making available of aid for our emigrants. These people, too, spend a considerable amount of money when they come home to spend holidays with their families and most of them come home at least once a year.

Other countries with emigrant populations in Britain help their people considerably. For instance, in recent years the Spanish Government bought a large building complex at Notting Hill Gate where not only recreational and sporting facilities are available but where also there are schools for Spanish emigrants. The Italian Government employ 20 full-time social workers in London but the number of social workers that can be employed in the Irish Centre in Camden Square is restricted because of the absence of any aid from our Government with the result that the centre must rely on its own resources which are primarily receipts from the bar and from social occasions. They are hard pressed to employ two social workers. Other Governments who provide aid for their emigrants in Britain are the Polish and German Governments and, I understand, five or six others, primarily from Europe and Africa. They have programmes such as the one I have outlined for helping their emigrants. Is it not ironic that the only material benefit that the Irish Centre in Camden Square has ever received has been from British Rail who devised a scheme whereby the centre would benefit to the extent of 8p for every additional passenger using British Rail in journeys between Ireland and Great Britain. Luckily in one sense, but regrettably in another sense, there has been an increase in passenger numbers between Britain and Ireland. Unfortunately, the increase is primarily on the Ireland to Britain route. This year it is hoped to raise £20,000 by way of this scheme.

Last week Camden Borough Council voted £14,000 by way of grant towards the upkeep of the Irish Centre and they intend doing the same next year. However, it is estimated that for the centre to function as it should function, the cost would be between £220,000 and £240,000 per annum. This is where the Irish Government can help. Last week, too, in the House of Commons 28 MPs signed a declaration expressing anxiety at the lack of concern being shown by the Irish Government for the welfare of Irish emigrants in Britain. These MPs believe it is about time we came to the aid of these people.

There is accommodation in this Irish Centre for 140 boys and girls. During the 25 years of its existence, the centre has catered for 55,000 emigrants by way of accommodation and the centre help also in finding employment for emigrants. In all, they have helped about 70,000 people to find jobs. At the moment an additional hostel under the guidance of this Irish Centre is being built at Westminster and it is planned to accommodate there 130 girls. The cost of the hostel, which is expected to be ready for occupation shortly, is £785,000. So far as I can ascertain, all of that money is being provided by the British Government. I am told by the director and by the social workers in the Irish Centre that at present they can accommodate only two out of every seven girls who seek accommodation at the centre. The magnitude of the problem is quite easily seen from that. The Irish Centre are asking the Government at present for a major financial subvention to help them renovate and extend their existing centre in Camden Square. They estimate that this work will cost £1,150,000. Already they have raised £110,000 by their own fund-raising efforts and they are looking to this Government to help them get the remainder. I ask here tonight that we do something concrete at last. Even now it would be very welcome. I will quote from a letter dated 23/10/1978 which I received from the Director of the Irish Centre in Camden Square, Fr. W.J. Cagney, OMI. He refers to the question I raised here last June:

Your question in the Dáil was very relevant and the answer received does not really cover the matter.

On that occasion the Minister referred to social welfare benefits, whereas that was not the point I was trying to get at. I was asking about direct financial aid for the centre. The letter continues:

My two Social workers were not enthused about the answer and I am enclosing their comments.

Please try again to get the Government to come to our aid. We are really in a critical period. The numbers seeking aid and the depth of the human problems presented are increasing both quantitatively and qualitatively.

At present we are burdened with a building really unfit for us and completely inadequate for the work. The Government has a recommendation from me since August of 1977 and I am still awaiting an answer. It is a request for financial aid.

I know that the Minister for Foreign Affairs is aware of the problem and that he, together with many other members of the Government, would like to help. They may be inhibited by the thought of a possible flood of applications from other Irish centres in Great Britain.

The Deputy should now conclude.

That fear may be unfounded. Even if there is a request from the other centres, may be and more than likely their claims can be justified. I ask the Minister to make a start and use his influence to get the Government to look after the interests of our emigrants, which we have ignored for far too long.

I welcome the opportunity of replying to Deputy Deasy's question in greater detail than was available to me at Question Time when this matter was raised. The manner in which he has presented it this evening is a fair and objective approach to the question. In his introduction he outlined the various provisions that were being made by some other Governments. He talked about the need for provision for our people in England. Generally one has to accept that his concern is well motivated.

As the Deputy knows, this matter has been under consideration for some time. He will be aware from his communications with Fr. Cagney from the Irish Centre that Fr. Cagney has been in fairly constant communication with representatives of both this Government and the British Government. I do not want to enter into any political issue on this, but the Deputy will also be aware, as I am sure Fr. Cagney is, that this matter was considered by our predecessors and for one reason or another— let me leave it at that—they did not or could not meet the request at that time. The matter then came before us and we have been in direct contact with Fr. Cagney and also have been considering this matter for some time.

In the first instance, we appreciate fully what is being done in the Irish Centre, and what is now being proposed to do, and we are aware of the need to meet the cases that they attend to. At the same time, lest there may be any misunderstanding, while we are dealing with serious problems here, we are dealing, nonetheless, with a minority of the Irish community. I say this lest people would have the impression from these discussions that the whole Irish community in London or elsewhere are in constant need of social welfare assistance, social advice or accommodation. Secondly, as the Deputy has suggested, this centre, while obviously the biggest in Britain, is not the only one. The Deputy will be aware that there are other centres——

——in Birmingham, in Hammersmith and also in Liverpool.

Obviously, the Government approach to this must be on the basis of how we can discharge our responsibilities as we see them to all of these areas, if not these centres in the strict sense of the word. The fact that the Irish Centre in Camden Square are now undertaking this major development obviously makes them a matter for special consideration. The Government are considering not just the Irish Centre in London but the whole question of how we could effectively make a contribution towards the services being provided. It is not as easy as it might seem in the first instance to transfer money directly to another source. The Government must have regard to their obligations in terms of the structure to which things are done and to the precedents that would be created. When we talk in terms of Irish communities we cannot confine ourselves to Irish communities in Britain. There are other areas where Irish communities might make certain demands on the Government. Therefore, it has to be considered in the overall context.

An inter-Departmental committee are and have been for some time looking at the whole question and they have been in contact also with the Emigrant Advisory Committee. I hope that when we get the outcome of their deliberations I will then be able to consider what scheme, if any, I can propose to the Government. I do not want to convey a false impression. I am not in a position at this stage to make any commitment in respect of the Irish Centre at Camden Square. The matter is part of the overall situation being considered by the Government. I can only assure the Deputy that this is a matter that I will, I hope, be able to look into in further detail when I get the outcome of these deliberations.

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