Deputy B. Desmond received permission to raise on the adjournment a question concerning Dún Laoghaire College of Art. The Deputy has 20 minutes.
Adjournment Debate. - Dún Laoghaire College of Art.
On 16 November last I tabled a question in the Dáil to the Minister for Education if, further to his reply to Question No. 173 of 20 June 1978 that, in relation to the future status of the arts department of the Dún Laoghaire Technical Institute, it would be necessary for him to consult the Higher Education Authority, he would state the date on which he communicated with the authority seeking their views on the matter, if any reply had been yet received from them, and the contents of this reply, if any.
Finally on the 16 November last, I asked the Minister if he would make a statement on the current policy of the Government in relation to the views of the Higher Education Authority on the future status of his art department. With particular reference I asked him as to the future prospects of the Dún Laoghaire art department becoming a constituent or an ancillary third level college of the National College of Art and Design, based in Dún Laoghaire. By implication I put forward a proposition for consideration by the Minister. I was very surprised and more than annoyed to get back from the Minister the following reply and I quote from volume 309, column 1210, of the Official Report of 16 November:
The manner, method and timing of consultation with the Higher Education Authority in this regard are matters of the normal organisation of departmental business and I do not consider it appropriate to furnish the details requested by the Deputy. I shall make a statement in the matter in due course.
I have been nearly ten years in this House and I am not going to take that kind of reply from anybody, be it either by a departmental draft or a ministerial sanctioning of the draft or a ministerial responsibility for it because most Government Departments provide, in relation to a question of that nature, vastly more information. I have repeated the question here and I have attempted to raise this matter on no less than four separate occasions in this House in the past month. Since the question was tabled by me on every occasion, although the question was entirely in order, the Ceann Comhairle found reason for allocating the time to some other question, I raised this deliberately on the adjournment and I repeat my question to the Minister. He said last June that he was going to ask the HEA for their views as to what they considered to be the most appropriate status for the art department of Dún Laoghaire technical institute. I am asking him now has there been any movement on that request? I am asking him did he make the request? I am asking him when was the request received? Have they transmitted any view on their part to him? I am asking him is there any Government policy on this matter? I remember attending a meeting in the Royal Marine Hotel early last May when the Minister for Economic Planning and Development, my constituency colleague Deputy O'Donoghue, indicated that within a matter of months there would be a clear-cut decision on the part of the HEA and the Department of Education and the Government in relation to this matter.
As the House may not be aware of it, although a number of questions have been asked on this matter in the past few years, the Dún Laoghaire technical institute has an art department. It is known as the School of Art, even though I understand formal official recognition has never been given to a school of art as such. But it does run third-level courses, validated as we know by the Department of Education and by the National Council for Education Awards, and the Minister has accepted that for the next two years at any rate the NCEA validated awards will continue to be sought and qualifications will be issued in that context within this art department. There is a staff as of now of about eight full-time teachers. There are some 118 full-time students. There are some 550 part-time students and there are some 30 part-time staff.
All of these students and their parents and the part-time students and indeed the staff concerned, and I here include the part-time staff as well, are very concerned about the future prospects of the school of art. Officially the school exists as a second-level institution. It is quite evident that there is not the space, there is not the full complement of third level staff. In the short or long term, while the school continues to have second-level status, it cannot possibly have the budget or the equipment which would normally be allocated by the Department to such an institution running fully validated third-level courses.
There has been a great deal of local agitation on this matter. There has been a great deal of local concern and recently I attended the public meeting in the Royal Marine Hotel in Dún Laoghaire on 8 November last to discuss the future of this school of art. The local Vocational Education Committee is very seriously concerned about the matter because, as the Minister is quite well aware, the school of art has grown up under the general auspices of the Vocational Education Committee and my understanding is that the VEC does not regard itself, in the short-term or in the long term, as having responsibility for a third-level institution as such. In the past it has not been allocated a budget which would enable it to administer a third-level school and it is not likely in the future that it would be in that kind of administrative position. It has a substantial responsibility for a thousand young students in Sallynoggin Technical School, Dún Laoghaire Technical School and Blackrock Technical School; there are 200 apprentices who are in the motor school in Dún Laoghaire; they also have responsibility for a large number of other part-time students all outside the school of art. The VEC has had the greatest difficulty over the years in getting to grips, even administratively, with the situation of the school of art because of the uncertainty and the budgetary problems which it has faced down through the years with the growth of this school.
Unfortunately there has been, and the Minister might well be aware of this, considerable confusion about the situation. There seems to be a naïve view among some people that the whole responsibility for the future of this school rests with the VEC. This, of course, is quite wrong. The VEC have been unfairly and excessively abused for not ensuring that third-level status is granted. This of course is quite unfair. For example, colleagues of mine including three who are on the Vocational Educational Committee, Councillor Jack Loughlin, Councillor Doyle and Councillor J. O'Mahony, have assiduously attempted to promote third-level status with the other members of the VEC. Indeed I am glad to see here present this evening my constituency colleague, Deputy David Andrews. He has also, together with other members of the VEC, been particularly helpful in trying to bring about a final decision in relation to third level conditions. I do not believe there is any party political acrimony on this matter but there have been a number of side issues like the social insurance stamp, the local VEC and so on. There were some quite libellous allegations made about the administrative staff of the VEC. A certain amount of nasty abuse has been levelled where there is no need for that kind of irresponsibility.
Is the school of art to remain as a second-level separate institution or will it be established as a separate third-level College of Art and Design acting as a new institution? Is it envisaged that it will become a constituent third level college of the national college? Is that a consideration which should be taken into account? I strongly hold the view that in the long term—this will take about ten years to bring about—in the South Dublin area stretching from Blackrock to Bray and Greystones that huge catchment area of South Dublin, there is a great need for the 200,000 people who live there of a regional technical college. There is very little prospect of a proper economic, social and industrial development in that area without a regional technical college. I would like to see that there but in the meantime we have the problem of the future of the School of Art.
Will the Minister tell us this evening what assistance he may be able to give. I particularly stress to those who have been agitating about this matter that the final decision rests exclusively with the policy decision of the Department and with the Higher Education Authority. I stress, contrary to some public impressions which may have been created, that to date no Minister for Education, either of the previous Government or of this administration, has given any commitment in writing on this matter. It is commitments in writing that matter not polite words at deputations about considerations and hoping to do this and that. We want to know if the Higher Education Authority have given any indication of the policy line they feel should be followed by the Minister in that regard.
I want to thank the Minister for the very great assistance he has given in the interim period to the Dún Laoghaire School of Art. The members of the VEC appreciate the sanctioning of additional teaching staff to the school of art and they appreciate the sanctioning of additional money by the Department of Education to the school of art. I am sure they would wish me to thank the Minister for the interim assistance he has given, which is very much appreciated by the teaching staff concerned, by the VEC and by the students. It is fair to say that within the fairly limited second level budget available to the Dún Laoghaire VEC they have allocated the highest possible proportion to the school of art they could get sanction for.
It is to the credit of the VEC over the years, which might not be appreciated now, that the current CEO, Mr. Séan Clayton, was instrumental in having a school of art set up under the auspices of the VEC. Some of the snide abuse levied at him by some journals for eventually not doing this and not doing that is entirely unwarranted. While there have been considerable administrative difficulties facing the VEC they have been internal to a situation where a school of art exists and is endeavouring with the greatest of difficulty to have a third level course pursued.
I ask the Minister to give us some indication of a timetable, because in 1977 the school received approximately 700 applications for 35 places. This year and next year I can see a tremendous inflow of further applications. The matter has to be clarified in the near future by the Minister. I know that the ordering of business is not entirely in the Minister's hands and that he has had a fairly exhausting day today in ordinary legislative work. I regret having to impose on him this evening but I thank him for giving me the opportunity of raising this matter.
I am glad to have the chance of clarifying some of the points about the Dún Laoghaire Art School. I am glad to see that Deputy Desmond is taking an interest in it even at this late stage because I met a deputation from the Dún Laoghaire VEC and the Art School on 11 May and Deputy Desmond was not there.
On a point of information, I was not invited to take part in that deputation.
The people who came thought that the Deputy was not interested.
I was not invited.
My records and files show that no great interest was taken in the school of art during four-and-a-half years, The resounding kick in the bottom from the electorate seems to have sharpened aesthetic and educational interest in many people. The matter of the future status of the art department in Dún Laoghaire Technical Institute has to be viewed in the general context of third level planning and cannot be considered on its own. The Higher Education Authority have an obligation to advise me on the development of third level education in general and the Dún Laoghaire college must be considered in that context. The consultation is not merely about the school of art in Dún Laoghaire but about the whole development of third level education in the Dublin and Dún Laoghaire areas. The fable of the blind men and the elephant comes to mind. The blind man who had the elephant by the tail thought he was grasping one object and whoever had the elephant by the ear thought he was grasping something else. We must take an overall view of the third level education scene. Any decision must be taken on a rational basis with our resources in mind.
I have a particular interest in the Dún Laoghaire School of Art. I met a group of people representing parents, students and friends on 11 May this year and this group included the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy David Andrews, and the Minister for Economic Planning and Development, Deputy O'Donoghue, as well as the former Taoiseach and other representatives. I explained to them, as I have now explained to the House, that I could not make any instant decision on the status. I undertook to investigate three possible areas where I could help the art department to continue the work for which they have become deservedly famous. I am happy to say I have followed up my undertaking with appropriate action in the matter of continued validation by the NCEA, the provision of material assistance and the provision of extra staff. On the first point, the NCEA have agreed to continue their ad hoc validation facilities for three years.
I understand it is for two years.
The understanding in the Department is that it is three years. The courses concerned are the one-year visual education certificate course, the two-year national certificate course in visual studies and the two-year national certificate course in design communication.
With regard to the provision of art materials, I sanctioned the expenditure of a sum in excess of £60,000—in fact, more than I was asked for—for the current year and I sanctioned the provision of a supernumerary grade A post of responsibility for the art department. On 13 November last I sanctioned four additional whole time posts. There are now nine posts for whole time teachers to cater for some 118 full-time students, as well as ample part-time staff. As well as the professional staff, clerical and administrative assistance has also been given. I also sanctioned recently additional posts for one senior clerk, one clerical officer and three clerk-typists for Dún Laoghaire Vocational Education Committee. They may deploy this staff where they think the need is greatest. If they consider the greatest need exists in the art department, they may deploy this staff there.
The House will agree that the actions I have taken are an indication of a positive attitude by me towards the school of art in Dún Laoghaire. I know the standards they have achieved and for that reason I am committed to sustaining them. I am not aware in detail of the background mentioned by Deputy Desmond in relation to people being attacked and so on. In view of the support and sustenance which I have given by way of money, professional staff, administrative and clerical staff, it is the plain duty of the VEC to use these facilities to the utmost to keep the art department going without any kind of brouhaha or pressures. While it is said that irritation produces the pearl in the oyster, too much irritation or agitation in a school will interfere with educational development.
As Minister for Education and custodian of the whole educational good, any action I take must be taken advisedly and with due regard to the many other areas which require my attention and sympathetic support. I must also have regard to advice which may be tendered to me by institutions which have been set up inter alia to do just that. I refer, of course, to the Higher Education Authority and the NCEA. Decisions in the educational sector cannot be taken unilaterally or in isolation from the overall context. That is the point I made at the beginning. For me to attempt to act in isolation in this or any other instance would be to invite chaos in a delicately balanced area. It would also be an open invitation to other interests to press their claims, irrespective of the consequences to education as a whole. We have come a long way in our efforts to build up our non-university educational facilities over the years but we still have a considerable way to go before all our needs are satisfied.
We should strive for harmony and rationalisation. No institution already doing good work in any field of educational endeavour need fear the results of such striving. My guiding principle must always be the optimum good of the totality of the educational scene. I cannot allow myself to be deflected from the achievement of that aim. In particular, I am impressed by the quality of the head of the art department and the quality of the work done in that school and it is on that basis I have given the considerable support to the school in the context already outlined by me.
The Dáil adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 5 December 1978.