Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 15 May 1979

Vol. 314 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Child Care: Motion.

Mrs. Desmond

I move:

"That Dáil Éireann, aware that 1979 has been designated International Year of the Child and that in the Republic of Ireland four Ministers are currently responsible for the position of children in Irish society, calls on:

1. The Minister for Health for:

1.1 an early final report from the Task Force on Child Care Services and the introduction of new children's legislation before the end of 1979.

1.2 the establishment of a Child Care Development Unit in the Department of Health, following the Government's decision to assign primary responsibility for child care services to the Minister for Health.

1.3 the establishment of a National Council for Child Care Services to report to the Minister for Health on the operation and development of all child care services.

1.4 the referral of the following issues to receive top priority in the new Child Care Development Unit,

(a) the planning of a national campaign for the recruitment and support of foster parents,

(b) a review of the staffing and financing of residential child care facilities.

1.5 provision to meet the grave need for central and regional planning in relation to the educational and day-care needs of pre-school children.

1.6 the expansion of opportunities for pre-service and in-service training and support for non-residential social workers and residential care staff working in the area of child care.

2. The Minister for Education for:

2.1 an immediate reduction in the size of infant classes National Schools, as a matter of urgent priority.

2.2 the extension of the Schools' Psychological Services to cover all primary schools.

2.3 the expansion of the Free School Meals Scheme and the Free Books Scheme, and the rationalisation of eligibility procedures.

2.4 a major review of the Department's role in relation to troublesome children.

3. The Minister for Justice for:

3.1 the immediate closure of Loughan House as a children's prison.

3.2 considerable improvements in the pre-service and in-service training of gardaí to facilitate them in dealing with children and young people.

3.3 the immediate abolition of the highly discriminatory concept of illegitimacy.

3.4 an extension of the scope of the proposed constitutional referendum on adoption to include a provision to ensure the primacy of a child's welfare in any disputes affecting his care or custody.

3.5 the funding of research on adoption and the introduction of statutory minimum standards of practice to apply to adoption agencies.

3.6 the introduction of a system of independent, though not necessarily legal, representation for children involved in judicial disputes affecting their care or custody.

3.7 easier and more frequent access for children to parents who are in prison.

4. The Minister for Social Welfare for:

4.1 the immediate introduction of realistic children's allowances to combat child poverty.

5. The Minister for the Environment for:

5.1 greatly increased investment in local authority housing and improved access for families with children to other forms of housing.

5.2 stricter and more extensive requirements by planning authorities for the provision of recreational facilities for children in new and existing housing estates and near their homes".

This motion is based on the manifesto issued by CARE and it is a list of the legislative and other proposals for reforming the area of child care which we feel would bring about a situation which would improve the condition of children in Irish society. We are in 1979, International Year of the Child, the 20th anniversary of the UN declaration on the rights of the child, a declaration which sought to provide for children the right to affection, love and understanding, to adequate nutrition and medical care, to free education, to full opportunity for play and recreation, to a name and nationality, to special care if handicapped, to be among the first to receive relief in times of disaster, to learn to be a useful member of society, to develop individual abilities, to be brought up in a spirit of peace and universal brotherhood and to enjoy these rights regardless of race, colour, sex, religion, nation or social origin.

It is generally agreed that the International Year of the Child aimed at affording each country an opportunity to examine the special problems of children within the area of that country's jurisdiction. It aimed at affording an opportunity to adults to put the children of our State in their rightful place in the centre of national concern. It is worth mentioning a recent statement by Peter Ustinov which I happened to hear on a radio programme during one of his many visits to this country when he told us that the world spent in one and a half hours as much on armaments as it spends on its children for a full year.

This places in perspective the sense of values we have at international and national level. Four months of 1979 have now elapsed and we see very little progress in this area. It is because we see so little progress and because we are not satisfied with what progress there is in the area of legislation and Government activities generally that we have tabled this motion. The Minister opposite, the Minister for Health, is the co-ordinating Minister for the purposes of the Year of the Child. He has established a steering committee. At the outset I can say that there is an impressive calendar of activity for the year and I should like to give credit to charitable and voluntary organisations that have taken on themselves the task of trying to highlight the plight of children and improve their condition during this year and to increase the awareness of both legislators and the general public of the condition of children particularly children in greatest need of assistance.

The Minister in launching the International Year of the Child in a statement on 18 December 1978 said that at present nearly one-third of our population is made up of children. This is the best part of one million people. This proportion is high compared with other European countries. On the same scale Ireland had the highest birth rate compared with its neighbours. This means that we have a very large segment of our population which is totally dependent on the remainder for its well-being. The important question for the future is: how do we cope with this challenge? He said it was hoped that the International Year of the Child would further stimulate us all to meet this challenge so that we can better plan for the future.

First, I should like to say that I am sincerely hopeful that in the period of less than eight months remaining of this year an effort will be made to make up for the lack of activity in the first four months. Indeed, some Government action in that four months has been in the reverse direction. There has been very little in the way of law reform or in the area of children's rights so far. On the economic side, there has been action which has been completely detrimental to the interests of children, particularly the children of people of lesser means. There has been no increase in children's allowances. There has been the removal of food subsidies which has militated very much against families with children——

Mr. Haughey

Did the Deputy say that there was no increase in children's allowances?

Mrs. Desmond

I stand corrected there. I am sorry; I confused that with tax allowances. I withdraw that. In the area of children's allowances we could come up with far greater increases because the increases in that area, as in the case of social welfare allowances, have never borne and do not now bear any relationship to what it costs to maintain a child. In the removal of food subsidies action was taken which I think was detrimental particularly to families with a large number of children at the lower end of the financial scale. I noted at the time, and I repeat it now because milk is a commodity consumed largely by children, that the purchase by a family of three or four children of six bottles of milk per day results in increased expenditure of £1.47 per week through the removal of the subsidies alone. This militated against families with children and against the interests of children.

Many people with large families live in local authority rented accommodation and a recent action by the Minister for the Environment in introducing a new graded rents scheme, a revised scheme, also militated against children to a great extent—but not a very much greater extent because the schemes in the past were not very much in the interests of children. The rent allowance, as of now, is of the order of £1.30 per child. One gets an additional allowance on one's rent of £1.30 for every additional child in the family. As a local councillor, I worked out that a family living on a very modest wage of £50 per week with no children would pay a rent of £7.10. If that family had four children they would pay £6.10. So, a concession of £1 per week is made for the sustenance of four children of a family occupying a local authority house. The situation has not been improved of late while all the rents have been increased of late and therefore I suggest this is another area where on the economic level the condition of children has been worsened rather than improved.

We have tabled this resolution which we hope provides a list of improvements we feel can and must be made during the coming year if we are to improve the conditions of the children of this State. We ask the Minister for Health to provide an early final report from the Task Force on Child Care Services and the introduction of new children's legislation before the end of 1979. I understand that the Minister has gone on record as saying he intends to have that legislation introduced in the very near future. It is reasonable for us to express concern because the task force has not yet reported. I do not say that as a criticism of the task force. I am quite prepared to accept that there may be difficulties. Perhaps they have not got adequate staff or adequate facilities. I am not sure.

I know Government committees sometimes have problems but, there are undue delays in publishing reports of this nature. Unless this task force reports at a very early stage, the Minister will find difficulty in introducing the legislation which he has promised in the area of children's rights before the end of 1979. We are now into May and in two months the Dáil will be going into recess. That means we will have about five months to enact the legislation we feel must be enacted before the end of 1979.

We believe the changes we call for in sections 1.2 and 1.3 of this resolution are fundamental, necessary, structural changes. If they are implemented they will lead to lasting improvements. In the Department a unit will be operating, and outside the Department there will be a National Council for Child Care Services which will be free to make recommendations, to put on pressure, and to educate public opinion. They will also be available to the Minister for consultation. This would be a basic, fundamental, structural change which would lay the framework for improving the lot of children in the future.

In section 1.4 we talk about a national campaign for the recruitment of foster parents. About 2,500 children are in public care, mostly in residental care. There is a very grave need for foster parents for those children. It is reasonable to suggest that the health boards could do more to promote the idea of fosterage and to sell the idea to couples who could undertake it. It may be that they need extra staff, extra funds and extra help to get this idea across. It is a very valuable and useful idea for the welfare of children in residental homes.

In section 1.5 we talk about provision to meet the grave need for central and regional planning in relation to the educational and day-care needs of pre-school children. This is a vital service for deprived children and for all children. There are no national standards for private health care. Anyone can set up a créche or a play group. More and more mothers have to take up paid employment outside the home because of economic necessity. It is vital that we develop this service properly. We cannot settle for less than proper State supervised standards in this area.

We are looking for the expansion of opportunities for pre-service and in-service training and support for non-residential social workers and residential care staff working in the area of child care. There is no nationally based monitoring of child care courses. This is a new educational area which will help to determine the shape of the service for many years to come. There is also a need for advanced courses for people who are already in the service, people who have already done the basic courses necessary.

We move on to another Minister who is concerned with child care. We ask the Minister for Education to provide an immediate reduction in the size of infant classes in national schools as a matter of urgent priority. That speaks for itself. Children leave a personal relationship with their parents and have to adapt to a school situation. That is difficult and traumatic for a child, but in overcrowded classes it is much more so. A child who is deprived educationally or intellectually does not get fair play in an overcrowded classroom. We must try to eliminate overcrowding in infant classes.

We also call for the extension of the schools' psychological services to cover all primary schools. A preventive service would be beneficial to all deprived children and it would also be beneficial to society. We call for the expansion of the free school meals scheme and the free books scheme and the rationalisation of eligibility procedures. Everybody knows the free school meals scheme is inadequately financed, under-funded and operates in specified areas only, defined urban areas. There are large urban areas where there is a need for the scheme and sometimes in rural areas perhaps there is an even greater need for this scheme. It is very much a hit and miss scheme and it is missing a great number of our children.

The free book scheme is also underfinanced and operates in such a way that many of the teachers involved are not very anxious to administer it. The Minister for Education should expand and improve this scheme in the interests of our children. We also call for a major review of the Department's role in relation to troublesome children. Has the proposed centre at Lusk been put on the long finger? There is an urgent need for it and no impetus should be lost in providing it.

We move on to the area of responsibility of the Minister for Justice. Many requests and demands are made to the Minister for Justice in the area of child care. In this lengthy motion which we are proposing to the House we ask for the immediate closure of Loughan House. There was a lengthy debate in this House and outside it on the subject of Loughan House. At the time it was proposed we were completely opposed to this concept, and we are still totally opposed to it. It was implemented in spite of the best advice of all the caring organisations at the time, which was freely forthcoming. The Minister's proposals differed from the recommendations of the Task Force on Child Care. The great concern of all of us was that money was expended on the conversion of that house which could have been well spent on child care services throughout the community.

The excellent document submitted by CARE at that time suggested that the sum spent on the conversion and equipment of Loughan House would have provided 30 places in special schools recommended by the task force in Dublin. It was suggested that the cost of maintaining the 40 boys in Loughan House, at an estimated cost of £6,000 each, would have paid for one social worker or one youth officer per boy. Those objections at that time have been sustained since.

We in this party appreciated at that time that bad environment, bad housing, inadequate education and appalling unemployment conditions all contributed to the problem of youth delinquency. This problem had been brought about by many years of neglect of the problems of the underprivileged, child neglect in particular. We appreciated that one-third of all the children in the State depend on parents who themselves are dependent on the State for maintenance and who have inadequate living conditions. Our call in the motion for the closing of that children's prison is in keeping with the stand we have taken on this subject.

We also call for the immediate abolition of discrimination in regard to illegitimacy. I draw the attention of the House to the Labour Party's Private Members' Bill to amend the Constitution which, in addition to making sound, constitutionally, existing adoption orders, sought to eliminate the concept of illegitimacy from our society, to make child welfare paramount and to amend Articles 41 and 42 of the Constitution by deleting the words "inalienable and imprescriptible" as they apply to parents' and family rights. The Bill sought to remove doubts as to whether Irish adoption laws making the child's welfare paramount contravened the Constitution. It will be remembered that the courts had decided that the family is a family based on marriage. Such a situation discriminates against children born out of wedlock. Our proposal in that Bill included the words "equality of rights under the law shall not be denied to any child on the basis of status of birth or parentage" and sought to bring about a situation in which the concept of illegitimacy would be abolished. That is included in this motion.

Also in that Bill we sought to extend the privilege of adoption to children whose parents may have abandoned them or who no longer care for them or who abuse them in any way. It was a very sad reflection on the stand taken by the Minister and the Government that, having decided to have a referendum on adoption, these highly desirable changes on children's rights, the one to abolish the shameful concept of illegitimacy which nobody would stand over, which denies the child born out of wedlock the right to succession, the opportunity given in our Bill was not taken. We now repeat our request to the Minister concerned to include such provisions in legislation and in a referendum in order to redress the discriminatory situation that exists as far as children are concerned.

This motion also asks for independent representation, not necessarily legal, for children involved in court proceedings. It is being assumed wrongly that in all cases the interests of the child are synonymous with those of the parents in questions of conflict, of violence, of child battering and many other areas in which the child's interests are separate from the interests of parents. We therefore seek independent representation of some kind in cases of children in judicial disputes.

There is also a request in the motion for easier and more frequent access for children whose parents are in prison. I understand the Minister has taken some action in this area and that there is provision for visits. Such visits from their children should be in addition to any other visits prisoners might get from any other source. It is a minor matter which the Minister could implement without difficulty.

That brings me on to the Minister for Social Welfare. We are seeking the immediate introduction of realistic children's allowances in order to combat child poverty. We have never had any realisation in our social welfare legislation of the real needs of children or what it costs to maintain a child. We have had varying rates of child allowances. I do not know what such rates are based on but they do not reflect any real appreciation of what it costs to maintain a child. We should make some effort to combat the want and the suffering and the poverty which are the lot of so many children here.

In so far as possible, there is a need for co-ordination of services for children on a national basis. The Minister for the Environment could do a great deal to try to eliminate the extraordinarily bad housing conditions in both urban and rural areas. They militate mostly against children. A great deal of the tensions which result in violence, in unhappiness, even in breakdowns of marriages, have their origins in bad housing. I say that deliberately from my widespread experience of the needs of my constituents, both urban and rural. There are tensions created by living with in-laws, in overcrowded conditions. A little more space, not to mention comfort or amenities, would eliminate such tensions. Some of the hardships would never have arisen or could have been redressed if we were to mend the bad housing conditions which apply generally. I know of the position in Cork city and I am sure they are worse in Dublin. In Cork there are families of four and five still awaiting rehousing even though they have been three years on a waiting list. As elsewhere, there are marriages in that city on the verge of breakdown because there are no prospects of early rehousing. Money spent in this area would be an investment in the future health and happiness of the people.

We are also calling for better facilities for people generally and for children in particular. The tendency is to develop large council and private estates without providing for the needs of the people who will live in those estates. We are now thinking of providing necessary facilities for children in some public and private estates. By the time the facilities are provided the children will have outgrown them. Our planning laws should be firmer in this regard. Builders are able to present plans for estates leaving one-tenth of the total area as an open space. These areas are often beside roads and are often used for road widening purposes. We are still developing estates without providing community halls, youth centres and open spaces. Young couples who move into new houses after a long waiting period are not in a position to choose and often take the first house available. Some of them become vocal after a while about the lack of facilities.

The onus is on us to provide a proper environment in which children can develop into responsible human beings. In this the International Year of the Child we are seeking to make an impact in regard to these matters. In the time available to us it is not possible to explain in detail all our legislative proposals. We are seeking to highlight the plight of children who have been denied their rights, the plight of children who, in extreme cases, are the victims of tension and violence in their homes, the plight of children who are condemned to spend their formative years in institutions. Steps should be taken to improve the lot of all our children. The children are the vulnerable members of the community and they are also the future of the State. There will be no lobbying and no concerted public demand in respect of children other than the demands of the caring societies.

We are here to represent the adults who voted for us and we are morally obliged to provide a better environment for the weak, the underprivileged and the children. The Government should utilise the remainder of the year to introduce a charter of rights which will lay a foundation for a better deal for children. We are seeking the approval of the House for this motion.

Minister for Health (Mr. Haughey)

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following: "approves of the continuing action being taken by the Government to improve the quality of life for Irish children.".

The decision of the Labour Party to table this motion in the terms in which they have is difficult to understand. It does not afford the House an opportunity of dealing realistically with the various matters involved. Because of the rules governing Private Members' time I will have an opportunity to reply now and the Minister for Justice will have an opportunity to reply tomorrow, but neither the Minister for Education nor the Minister for the Environment will be able to deal with the various matters raised.

The Labour Party have simply taken the manifesto of CARE and put it down as a Private Members' motion, which is an unsatisfactory way to deal with this important matter. It would have been more advantageous if they had selected some items, brought them forward as positive proposals and asked the House to discuss them as such. At best, we can only have a quick run through the various items in the CARE manifesto. My colleagues, the Minister for the Environment and the Minister for Education, would like to be able to talk about their plans under the various headings but they will not have an opportunity of doing so. Therefore, a great deal of this CARE manifesto will have to go by default. However, we may get another opportunity of dealing with the various items included in the Labour motion. I award a very high priority, both in a personal and official capacity, to improving the quality of life of children who, for one reason or another, cannot enjoy a happy and stable childhood.

It is hardly necessary to repeat that the United Nations designated 1979 as the International Year of the Child. It is important that we all agree that making progress in the area of the welfare of children in this year must occupy a central position in planning activities in all Departments. One of the objectives of the year is to review and evaluate existing policies and priorities in services for children. Deputies will agree that it is important that that review should not be confined to this House or to Departments but should extend to all agencies and voluntary organisations and all those who have a function and role in dealing with children either at local or national level. If we examine existing services and explore new ways of helping deprived children we would make an important contribution to the year.

We should keep an open mind on how best the needs of children can be met. In doing that one of the essential elements is to promote and encourage a spirit of co-operation between the different agencies and personnel working in different areas. That is of crucial importance. It would be very detrimental if we had occupational jealousies or institutional conflicts in this area. One of the first objectives we must set ourselves is mutual co-operation and a helpful attitude throughout the different bodies concerned.

With regard to the items in the manifesto for which I have specific responsibility, I am happy to report that developments have taken place and others are planned. The first item mentioned by Deputy Mrs. Desmond was the Task Force on Child Care Services. I assure the Deputy that I am anxious to get the final report because it will be the basis of many things, including new legislation. I am committed to introducing legislation this year and hope to adhere to that commitment although it is becoming a little uncertain at the moment. The task force are working very hard at their job and at endeavouring to complete the report. An enormous amount of progress has been made but there are real, fundamental difficulties. It is as well that the House and the public should know that this is one of the most difficult and contentious of all public administrative and legislative areas.

In reply to a specific point made by Deputy Mrs. Desmond, I have made available all the staff needed to ensure the work is processed as quickly as possible. I have three full-time officers in the Department of Health allocated to the task force. There will be no hold up in that regard. I asked Judge Séan Butler, who is a very active and committed member of the Judiciary, to undertake the chairmanship of it. I know from my personal contact with the situation that they have devoted themselves to the task. As soon as I receive the report there will be no delay whatever about bringing forward the legislation.

There are central questions which have to be decided. Although we are all impatient to get on with the work it is important that the decisions made should be the right ones. What we decide to do will have a fundamental influence on the welfare and happiness of many children for many years to come. I do not feel justified in crowding the task force. I would like them to get the report out as quickly as possible but it is important that they do their job well and come up with decisions, policies and proposals which will stand the test of time. Other countries have made serious disastrous mistakes in this area and we do not want to follow that line.

The motion calls for the establishment of a child care development unit in the Department of Health. At present the welfare division of the Department have responsibility for planning the development of child care services. The staffing of the division has been improved to enable them to deal with the interim report of the task force and to service the International Year of the Child Committee and also in a general way to prepare for further development of child care. Before taking final decisions about organisation and staff, it is necessary to wait to get the report of the task force. Only when we see what the job is and the extent of the work that has to be done will we be able finally to decide what the appropriate structures for dealing with it are.

I have a primary responsibility for maintaining liaison with other Departments. It is a pity all Ministers cannot come in and deal with the different aspects of the motion but the rules do not permit it. The development of child care services is one area where the right structures and the allocation of responsibility are very important. There are areas of administration where it does not really matter as long as somebody does the job. This is not one of those areas. Only if we have the right structures and allocations of responsibility will we be able to respond to the individual needs of each child which is the overall objective. It is easy enough to create a job or allocate a central responsibility but it is much more difficult to ensure that whatever is created, the structure, organisation, development unit and so on, will be in a position to respond directly, immediately and effectively to the needs as they arise.

It is wrong to think in terms of children in need in isolation. Even some of the most dedicated and committed people in this area talk about children as if they were a disembodied quantum of people, a section of the community which can be looked at in isolation. Anyone with knowledge of the problems knows that this is not so. The vast majority of children are members of families and one cannot think or plan for children in isolation. Very often the child in need of care is a family in need of care. This must be kept in mind. Child support services must, ab initio, be integrated into family support services. I fault some people for their academic preoccupation with children as children as if they were a disembodied and isolated category of people in our society. Child services must be planned and developed as an integral part of our community care services. That is axiomatic and I hope it will be accepted.

The motion calls for the establishment of a National Council for Child Care Services. I am not too clear what the functions of that council will be. However, I assume that its responsibility will be to draw together all the people who are involved with children in the different fields, health, education, environment, justice and so on, whether voluntary or statutory, and also the different functions, research, advisory, training and support services. I do not know if that would be the right way to do it. It arises from erroneous thinking that children are something different and separate. The right approach is to have child welfare and child support services as part of family services and community services. But these things will become much clearer to us when we get the report of the task force. We will see then specifically what has to be done and what is recommended, what the proposals are, what the policies are. Then we will be able to think much more accurately and effectively and to decide what are the forms and the structures, who should have the responsibility for policy formulation, who should be responsible for planning and co-ordination and who should be responsible for the delivery of the actual services.

Another reason for awaiting anxiously the report of the task force is that the motion asks for the planning of the national campaign for recruitment and support of foster parents and asks for the improvement of staffing of residential care facilities. The motion asks that these things should have top priority. I want to assure the House that the development of fostering services will continue to be a priority in the Department and in the health boards. The development of fostering is an increasingly important option open to health boards to provided care for children for whom they are responsible, and in 1978 we provided additional funds to health boards to enable them to increase the boarding-out allowance by an average of about £2 per child. Health boards were also able to increase the rates payable in the case of special and difficult cases. We are supporting the Eastern Health Board in the running of special fosterage campaigns to recruit more foster parents. Money has also been made available to the board to enable them to have this campaign evaluated and when that evaluation is carried out the results will be made available to all the health boards so that potential foster parents will be identified and encouraged to come forward and make their homes and lives available to those who need them. The capitation rate has been adjusted for certain homes but some of them have run into difficulties. However, I can assure the House that homes which have had financial deficits will be sympathetically helped until such time as major decisions on long-term financing have been taken.

It is intended also later this year to have discussions with authorities of the residential homes about staff ratios. The recent survey by the Association of Workers in Child Care showed that we are reasonably well off in regard to staff ratios. We have one head of staff for every 4.5 children.

The motion also asks for central and regional planning in relation to education and day school care for pre-school children. That is a responsibility of mine particularly so far as deprived children and parents under stress are concerned. The health boards are encouraged to develop facilities for children and families in need of special support. They include single parents, children whose mothers have been deserted or widowed and who have to find employment because of economic circumstances and who because of illness or similar circumstances are not able to cope. There is also, of course, the children of travelling people and some Deputies may have seen that I announced considerable improvements in the facilities which we are making available in Galway and the importance we attach to the pre-school and day care facilities for these children. These provide a very important bridge between the travelling life and the life of the settled community.

The motion also calls for an expansion of facilities for training of and support for staff working in child care areas. I am aware of the needs here. It is an area to which my Department have recently been giving a great deal of attention. We have discussed with the conference of major religious superiors the role and training of needs of different levels of staff employed in children's homes. As a result of these discussions I am making funds available for a three-day residential course later this month for managers of residential homes. This will be the first in a series of training courses for these managers and for prospective managers. The survey by the Association of Workers in Child Care to which I referred shows that the existing level of staff in these residential homes is very good. The association have been invited to discuss their training needs with my Department and we hope to be able to meet them this month and to start meeting the training needs of staff by special non-residential courses. The first training date for such staff was held on 9 May and was followed up by training sessions in different aspects of work with troubled or problem children. We have identified the training needs and it is now a question of meeting those needs in an orderly fashion over the next few years.

The CARE manifesto also refers to the children's allowances and there are calls for increases in these and the introduction of realistic children's allowances to combat child poverty. Of course children's allowances are a very important element in our welfare services generally. In fact I am sure that Deputies interested in this area know that there is now a fair volume of thinking to the effect that the most important aspect of all welfare is our children and that poverty usually is associated with families. The help is really needed for the families through family allowances and children's allowances and so on. But our children's allowance scheme is fairly widespread. The latest figures for 1978 show that we have 1,196,000 children from 439,000 families and the total expenditure was £51 million. I suppose everybody would wish children's allowances to be greater but at least it is a comprehensive scheme covering all families, and in the last budget coming into operation now we made fairly substantial increases on a percentage basis.

It is easy enough to call for realistic children's allowances without defining precisely what one means by "realistic". The percentages which we brought in in this year's budget and which should now be fully operative but which unfortunately, because of the disruption of the postal services are not completely operative yet, look fairly healthy. In the case of the first child the increase was 52 per cent, in the case of the next child 40 per cent, and so on down to the case of the family with ten children, for instance, where the increase in the case of the tenth child was 17 per cent. The overall percentage increase is around 28. The figures are quite substantial and the cost to the Exchequer of those increases will be £11.7 million in 1979 and £14.6 million in a full year.

I would like to draw attention to the fact that in previous years the children's allowances came into operation in July, but this year, because we were anxious to alleviate as far as families are concerned, particularly large families and lower paid families, the effect of the reduction of food subsidies, we decided to bring them in on 1 April. They have been operative from 1 April so, all in all, I think that was a reasonable attempt to increase children's allowances substantially. I am not too sure whether it would be termed "realistic" within the terms of the CARE manifesto and of the Labour Party motion, but any reasonable person would accept that in the context of one year that was a very real attempt to improve greatly the situation of children and particularly those in large families. It was an indication of a wish to come to the aid as quickly as possible of those type of families that we brought them in in April, as distinct from the normal June date.

As far as the affairs of my Department are concerned, the only other matter of particular significance with which I have time to deal is the question of school meals. This is a vexed topic. I do not believe that anybody has really found the answer to the type of service which will be provided. Our school meal service is not one we could all stand back and look at with great pride or satisfaction. One of the first things I did when I came into Social Welfare was to look into the question of school meals because I had an idea from my experience and knowledge that the provision of a meal for a child at school could be a very important thing from the point of view of the general welfare of the child but, equally important, from the point of view of his education. I am sure many Deputies share the feeling that a child who is hungry or malnourished cannot really get down to the business of learning.

I set up a working party to look into the school meals scheme to see what they would suggest. The present scheme is quite haphazard and applies in certain areas but not in others. Even where it is applied it is not very satisfactory, although in some cases it is reasonably satisfactory. I have received a report from the working party and it is under consideration at the moment. It is, however, a costly business. It is not something that one can undertake casually in the course of a year because it has very important budgetary implications if one is to do anything satisfactory. Any examination of it has to have that in mind and has to have a very clear-cut realisation of the financial implications. There then comes a point when one has to pose the question: "If I have this amount of money available from the Exchequer, if the Minister for Finance is prepared to make it available to me, is this the best way to spend it? Is the provision of a satisfactory school meals system the highest priority we have at the moment or should we put the money into some other important support service, either a family support service or a children support service?"

I do not want to make any final assessment of the situation or to say anything conclusive about it to the House at this stage. I want to say that it is something which is still under examination and being considered from all the different points of view. My colleague, the Minister for Education and the Minister for the Environment, will not be able on this occasion to deal with all the matters which are of interest to them in connection with the International Year of the Child or in the course of their normal departmental duties. Deputy Desmond asked about Lusk. There is no question about it being abandoned. The planning of it has been proceeding and it is now entering its final stages.

I would like, in conclusion, to say that in the Department of Health and in all the agencies which operate under our aegis and all our voluntary bodies, we are totally committed to the International Year of the Child. We recognise it as something of great significance and importance. It presents us with the need to review what we are doing, to look at all our policies, to look at our programmes to see if they are effective, if they can be improved. If there is any doubt, we must ensure that not alone will particular things be engaged in and particular activities undertaken during the International Year of the Child but it is up to all of us in the House and outside it to ensure that we will avail of the occasion of the International Year of the Child to bring about lasting benefits, things which will be there permanently so that when the International Year of the Child is over there will be in the country policies, programmes and activities which will remain for the benefit of Irish children in the future.

Mr. Keating

I have pleasure in supporting the comprehensive motion before the House. Deputy Desmond has outlined excellently many of the elements of concern. I listened carefully to the Minister and it is clear that he also agrees with the spirit of what this motion tries to comprehend. The letter of the motion is probably exceeded in breadth of vision by the spirit which is behind it because there are things omitted from the motion which are also very relevant and germane. Nevertheless, it gives us an opportunity in this vital year to achieve something substantial and something concrete in the motion. This motion which is a replica of the CARE manifesto offers us a clear charter on which achievement may be satisfactorily, or otherwise, reached.

I have certain fears about the International Year of the Child, 1979, as anybody would have about naming a year, a month or a day for a specific purpose. My principal fear is that once past, and after a certain amount of acclaim, the therapeutic need of appearing to have done something would have been met, and that would mean we had made progress in that area, whereas the glitter and glamour of the public regalia on such occasions may very well cover a deficit of ideas and a lack of action.

I believe the Minister for Health and Social Welfare is a man who will honestly endeavour to make progress in this area. I want to take this opportunity of saying that I admire the efforts he is putting into his Departments, the vigour and professionalism he is bringing to them and the dedication, in terms of hard endeavour, which is clearly going into this area. I wish him well in all his efforts, particularly in the context of this motion. I have confidence that what is in the motion will be achieved by this Minister if it is humanly possible.

Children are important because they are our future. This is a difficult age for children. Gone are the Dickensian images of unfortunate children being pushed up chimneys, but other evils and ills have replaced that. I am a father of two young children and it is very difficult to explain to a five-year-old the concepts of violence, avarice, competition and so on which would seem to be the hallmark of the age, an age where simple childlike words, such as "gay" and "fairy" have all kinds of surreptitious connotations. The child does not understand when the adults present snigger or giggle when these words are mentioned. I find it sad to see this assault on childhood which is so prevalent throughout the "ad" culture, the Coca Cola culture of the day. I feel something valuable is being lost.

Maybe I am being unduly pessimistic about that but as a teacher for a number of years I was conscious of the essential dichotomy, the essential contradiction, of saying to a child, on the one hand, that the boy or girl sitting next to you is the person you are to love and look after in this life but, when the bell rings and the religion class is over, the child is told that the boy or girl who was sitting next to him would be competing with him for the one job which may be available at the end of it all. This problem exists and is eating away at a lot of what should be good in childhood.

The facts and difficulties facing children growing up today are elusive and hard to find, because up to now a great deal of attention has not been given to children, as the Minister said, in isolation. Perhaps one could go too far in that but, in fairness, there are obvious areas which need attention and research. Some of this research is being done.

An analagous organisation to CARE, a body called Hope, today presented a report to the Dublin Youth Services Council of which I happen to be chairman, which gives us food for thought. It was carried out in an effort to achieve some statistical data on the needs of young persons in our city. It is regrettable that that organisation had to come to us for the necessary funds. Money is a scarce commodity. One of the things we could do this year, along with what is in the motion, is try to allocate a certain specific fund, which should not be interfered with detrimentally, for future research in the area because figures are hard to get.

There are probably 150,000 children in this State who are dependent for their very existence on social welfare payments of one kind or another. We all know social welfare payments are not the kind of which luxury is made and I am sure people on all sides wish they could be more. What saddens me is that it is probably the children who are suffering most in these circumstances. On the streets of Dublin, and in my own constituency in particular, we see sad scraps of humanity with dirty faces and very little future in some cases. That would sadden any humane person. It is easy to forget that this problem exists because as soon as people establish themselves they move out of the city. The problem is therefore out of sight and often out of mind, not through deliberate neglect or act of omission but just through the nature of things. I ask people who have not done so for a long time to take a walk through some of these mean streets in the city and look at the children whose parents did not have a great deal and tragically are not likely to have a great deal themselves.

The way we treat children is a mark of civilisation. I do not know how we rate on that; I suspect no worse or no better than other nations. This is the International Year of the Child. One of the things the motion does not refer to is Ireland's impact, small though it may be, on international children's affairs. In other countries children are abused and exploited in many ways. In Brazil there are 14 million children many of whom are being exploited sexually. We can make a contribution on the international stage trying to motivate people to ensure that children all over the world get a better deal.

I do not intend to refer in detail to the areas covered by Deputy Desmond but the area of child labour is not mentioned in the motion. There is a tendency in some areas where children are abused in this way. When they should be at school and having the affection and warmth of home life, they have to do menial jobs late in the evening. This is not what childhood is all about. Sometimes there are good reasons for children having to be put in that situation. As a member of a school-tenants' committee I recall the futile tasks of these committees on occasion calling before them parents who would almost plaintively explain that the child of 12 had to go to work because they needed the money. There is not a great deal one can do with that argument.

There are not any overnight, easy answers to these problems. There are some things we can do. It would be wrong if we were to paint a picture of not just total pessimism but of total futility or hopelessness. We have a duty to be optimistic and to dedicate ourselves to achieving concrete, tangible, visible progress in a certain length of time and to be able to monitor it.

The housing area is clearly one which could be said to be the crucible of a child's life, the environment in which a child's character, attitude, moral values and standards are fashioned. We have severe overcrowding in our cities. I marvel at the wonderful children who emerge from one-and two-roomed flats, but unfortunately some children suffer along the way. An indication of the resilience of children is the number of them who make an excellent contribution to life and live a very fulfilled life later on.

Overcrowded houses, of which we have many, are a matter on which a Government should wage war when it comes to the question of children and children's affairs. I am worried about the growing number of overcrowded homes. Despite all the attempts and the desire for goodwill in this area, the amount of money spent on local authority housing is going down and the number of people on the lists are going up. Sometimes this is outside the Government's control, but the children are the sufferers whether it be in the small, inner-city flats or the wall-to-wall housing of the suburbs where the children's suffering is slightly different but they do suffer. They suffer because the structure of Government that we have may be in need of review. The basic concept of national, parallel departments operating nationally, sometimes consulting most loosely and informally and not responding to regional needs on a basis which is integrated and comprehensive is what we have. They do their own thing, and in the middle of all this we have the spectacle of an estate of a thousand houses quite close to the Minister's constituency which until very recently was without the basic social care services which one would assume to be part of the total of a community.

This overcrowding gives rise to another matter which is difficult to talk about. In the overcrowded homes we have an increase in what can only be referred to as sexual abuse of children, or incest. One does not hear a great deal about it, but in my own inner-city constituency evidence—circumstantial in almost all cases but sometimes stongly so—crops up of an unhealthy atmosphere prevailing in the home. We should not be surprised at this where there are families with three or four children in tiny quarters and cramped conditions, and in some cases the families are much larger than that.

The Minister, in replies to questions in the Dáil over the last couple of years, has on occasions given a clear indication that there are health problems for children in the inner-city areas. One does not have to be a doctor or a scientist to see the evidence of malnutrition and of lack in diet and bad diet. I can give an instance of a family of ten children whose basic diet is fish and chips. I am partial to a one-and-one myself now and again but I am fortunate in that I can vary the diet a little. Many children have to exist on this kind of meagre, basic diet with deficiencies of some kinds of vitamins and as a result they suffer physically, mentally, educationally and in every other way. We have a great deal to do there.

In education there are areas at which we do not merely throw up our hands in horror but where change can be brought about relatively quickly without great expenditure. To try to pursue the traditional educational pattern in city areas in some cases is futile. In parts of this city as many as 75 per cent of the children do not go on to secondary school and their primary schooling is erratic. In many cases it is fairly pointless, apart from the marginal social advantages of giving the child an opportunity to mix with his peers. In terms of achievement and of helping the child to develop a self-image and so forth the schooling exercise is largely a waste of time. That is because the traditional form of structure of school, the red- or grey-brick building to which he goes every morning and from which he comes home every evening, has never been part of his environment and is alien to his culture and ideas, and probably also to those of his parents.

We will have to look again at different modes of education and informal approaches to education in these areas. We should consider changing the curriculum in order to get rid of the system which sees that curriculum not so much as useful and good in itself but as a badge of achievement to which many of these children cannot aspire. Apart from the question of motivation, there is the basic question of sheer ability to compete and to study. We should try to bring about inner-city study centres where the children can go in the evenings away from the often hostile—not deliberately so—home environment to study or read under the care of interested parents and/or teachers. There are problems in such a scheme but the advantages are very strong. They would include the possibility of a child getting away from the one room with the television in one corner, the baby in another and the father in another corner perhaps complaining about the waste of time book-learning is and so on.

The self-image of young people in this area, and of children in many parts of our cities particularly, does not include achieving any sort of academic distinction or standard. Only those of us who have been through the educational process will realise the dignity which can be achieved by a person who sets himself an academic task and achieves something. We must give such children a chance to do this and they cannot do it in their present environment. We will have to make changes in education, in some cases quite small changes. There are the possibilities of changes in the curriculum, for example. A proposal has been put forward to Dublin Corporation which would involve the use of mobile buses in city centre areas to attract the children. Some sceptics might be concerned about the fate of the buses, but if the worst came to the worst the capital expenses would not be all that enormous. This is well worth trying in an area where children simply do not go to school, refuse to go to school, are not interested in school and see it as alien to them in every sense of the word. Obviously, certain things could facilitate that effort, including the involvement of parents and so on in structures of management.

On the question of the curriculum, I might mention that I was invited to a teenage wedding some months ago. As the invitation arrived on a Saturday and the wedding was that day I could not go. On the following Wednesday I telephoned a local hostelry to inquire how the couple were faring, only to find that they had broken up on the previous day. In other words, the marriage lasted three days. It put me in mind of the way in which many teenagers in some areas rush into marriage and into having children. Obviously, on some occasions the child is not a deliberate act but an unfortunate by-product, but the child suffers. I tell of that incident to indicate that it might be worth while to consider the introduction of some sort of education in the schools which would be much more relevant to the experience of these people than is some of the stuff which I as a teacher had to dole out. It could include for the women and men perhaps qualifications in child-rearing and child-minding which they probably never got but which would be of greater benefit to them than would being able to decline a Latin noun, although that is fast fading also.

A problem which probably will not be dealt with in the context of this discussion is that of itinerant children. Last weekend in Galway the Minister did say some heartening words. Nevertheless, the problem of itinerant children is a particular one. Although there are agencies responsible for coping with many parts of the spectrum relating to children, there is a part of the mesh through which these children seem to slip because they seem to be the responsibility of nobody. For example, there is the situation where the itinerant parents would be committed to prison and where there would be nobody responsible in a particular way for ensuring that there were no children left behind.

Debate adjourned.