Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Nov 1979

Vol. 316 No. 10

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Armed Robberies.

18.

Mr. M. O'Leary

asked the Minister for Justice the number of armed robberies which have taken place this year, the amount of money taken in each robbery and the amount recovered.

19.

Mr. B. Desmond

asked the Minister for Justice the total amount of money taken from banks, post offices and firms, and so on, by means of armed raids, robbery, kidnapping of hostages, and so on, in 1978 and to date in 1979; and the action the Government propose to take to deal with this situation.

Minister for Justice (Mr. G. Collins)

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 18 and 19 together.

I am informed by the Garda authorities that during the period from 1 January 1979 to 12 October 1979 the number of armed robberies—including attempted armed robberies—and aggravated burglaries involving firearms recorded was 203. Particulars of the value of property reported taken in the course of each of these crimes and of the amounts recovered are given in the form of a tabular statement which, with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to have circulated with the Official Report.

The Garda authorities say that the total value of all property reported taken in armed robberies, kidnappings and aggravated burglaries involving firearms during 1978 was £2,303,686. The corresponding figure for the period from 1 January 1979 to 12 October 1979 was £1,747,766.

When the present Government took up office almost two and a half years ago they immediately set about stepping up Garda recruitment with the result that in the intervening period the strength of the force has been increased by more than 10 per cent bringing the total numbers to approximately 9,500. A further 500 men are at present being recruited which will bring the strength to the greatest ever level of 10,000.

In addition to the increase in strength, various measures involving reorganisation tion of the force have been and are being implemented with a view to improving Garda efficiency. The detective force has been increased by 300 and the assistance of the Army has been invoked to provide additional armed protection for large cash consignments in transit. Other features include the setting up of the special task force to deal with terrorist type crimes and the provision of substantially increased technical and scientific assistance to the force. Moreover, as a result of discussions and consultations with bank managements there has been a considerable improvement in security measures at bank premises. Talks are continuing with the banks and other concerns with a view to having the position improved still further.

Regrettably, in spite of all the measures that have been and continue to be taken, the level of armed robberies continues to give cause for serious concern. The situation is under continuous review with a view to seeing what additional measures can be taken to deal with this threat.

Following is the statement:

Armed robberies (including attempted armed robberies), and aggravated burglaries involving firearms during the period 1 January 1979 to 12 October 1979 (inclusive): Reported value of property taken and amounts recovered.

Number	Reported value of property taken	Amount Recovered	Number	Reported value of property taken	Amount Recovered
1.	£10,344.73	—	2.	£40.00	£34.00
3.	value not known	—	4.	£2.00	—
5.	£9,500.00	—	6.	£175.00	£15.00
7.	£175.00	—	8.	£500.00	—
9.	£810.00	£30.00	10.	£10.00	—
11.	£4,199.00	—	12.	£500.00	—
13.	—	—	14.	£1,115.00	—
15.	£750.00	—	16.	£975.63	—
17.	£483.36	—	18.	£452.13	—
19.	£170.00	—	20.	£20,676.56	—
21.	£159.15	—	22.	£1,735.50	—
23.	£180.00	—	24.	£500.00	—
25.	£400.00	—	26.	£2,000.00	£40.00
27.	—	—	28.	£3,005.00	£3,000.00
29.	£26,974.00	—	30.	£16,000.00	—
31.	—	—	32.	£20.00	—
33.	£890.00	—	34.	£100.00	—
35.	£47,500.72	—	36.	£3,756.63	—
37.	£90.00	—	38.	£813.00	—
39.	£5,684.45	—	40.	£900.00	—
41.	£60.00	—	42.	£200.00	—
43.	£300.00	—	44.	£50.00	—
45.	£52.00	£52.00	46.	£162.49	—
47.	£60,000.00	—	48.	£2,359.20	—
49.	£20,690.96	£7,000.00	50.	£48,172.57	£48,172.57
51.	£28.00	—	52.	£23.00	—
53.	£20,891.10	£2,030.00	54.	£5,567.00	£5,548.00
55.	£13,960.64	—	56.	£500.00	—
57.	£280.00	—	58.	£200.00	—
59.	£33.00	—	60.	£5,400.00	—
61.	£5,000.00	—	62.	£384.30	—
63.	£1,686.93	—	64.	£15.00	—
65.	£2,193.00	£1,000.00	66.	—	—
67.	£38,000.00	—	68.	£28.00	—
69.	£10.00	—	70.	£200.00	—
71.	—	—	72.	£60.00	—
73.	£18,900.00	—	74.	—	—
75.	£2,000.00	£2,000.00	76.	£21,185.00	—
77.	—	—	78.	£450.00	—
79.	£3,387.10	—	80.	£1,500.00	£1,500.00
81.	£441.00	—	82.	£156.00	—
83.	£25,992.00	—	84.	£7,691.00	—
85.	£1,035.00	—	86.	£2,094.00	—
87.	£65,400.00	—	88.	£4,275.00	—
89.	—	—	90.	—	—
91.	£180.00	—	92.	£42,000.00	—
93.	£1,270.00	—	94.	£1,000.00	—
95.	£877.29	—	96.	—	—
97.	£3,330.18	—	98.	—	—
99.	£1,000.00	—	100.	£7,500.00	£247.60
101.	—	—	102.	£500.00	—
103.	£110.00	—	104.	£3,295.00	£89.00
105.	£4,774.00	£400.00	106.	£800.00	—
107.	£9,413.31	—	108.	£385.00	—
109.	£61.50	£60.00	110.	£15,000.00	—
111.	£45,644.00	—	112.	£400.00	—
113.	£20,840.70	—	114.	£614.81	—
115.	£9,710.64	—	116.	£90.00	—
117.	£20.00	—	118.	£1,300.00	—
119.	£742.76	—	120.	£70.00	£70.00
121.	£2,930.34	—	122.	£170.00	—
123.	£400.00	—	124.	£75.00	—
125.	£2,940.00	—	126.	£18,260.00	—
127.	£19,688.00	—	128.	—	—
129.	£25.00	—	130.	£4,000.00	—
131.	£4,500.00	—	132.	£5,000.00	—
133.	£6,000.00	—	134.	£13,000.00	—
135.	£636.00	—	136.	£10,732.00	—
137.	—	—	138.	£1,143.00	—
139.	£350.00	—	140.	£6,343.00	—
141.	£1,100.00	—	142.	£2,860.00	—
143.	£2,137.00	£2,137.00	144.	£1,686.04	—
145.	£1,000.00	—	146.	£2,797.00	—
147.	£4,230.75	—	148.	£6,000.00	—
149.	£850.00	—	150.	£1,500.00	—
151.	£45,500.00	—	152.	£500.00	—
153.	£2,500.00	—	154.	£40.00	—
155.	£56.00	—	156.	£20.00	—
157.	£21,431.00	£21,431.00	158.	£66,000.00	—
159.	£300.00	—	160.	£2,273.75	—
161.	£15,775.49	—	162.	£60.00	—
163.	£7,713.00	—	164.	£10.00	—
165.	£29.00	—	166.	£263.46	—
167.	—	—	168.	£35,800.00	—
169.	£19,118.45	—	170.	£60.00	—
171.	—	—	172.	£350.00	—
173.	£1,200.00	—	174.	£115.00	—
175.	—	—	176.	£1,400.00	—
177.	£2,000.00	—	178.	£25,900.00	—
179.	£825.00	—	180.	£13,580.00	—
181.	£15,500.00	—	182.	£3,500.00	—
183.	£500.00	—	184.	£34,335.00	£9,500.00
185.	£476.00	—	186.	£70.00	—
187.	£300.00	—	188.	£30.00	—
189.	£12,487.46	—	190.	£5.00	—
191.	£2,877.00	—	192.	£3,554.05	—
193.	£9.00	—	194.	£30,000.00	—
195.	—	—	196.	£520.00	—
197.	—	—	198.	£72,097.00	—
199.	£222.00	—	200.	£15,000.00	—
201.	£700.00	—	202.	£305,010.50	£305,010.50
203.	£70.00	—

Mr. M. O'Leary

Would the Minister agree that the apparent ease with which these armed bandit bands appear to operate successfully in city and country poses a great threat to the life and limb of employees in banks and industry? There have been instances where death has occurred as a result.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, Deputy.

Mr. M. O'Leary

Would the Minister agree that the time is overdue for a top level review of our present security system? I have in mind the possibility of a highly specialised grouping of the police force which would concentrate on detection and prevention of this kind of crime which is on the increase, according to the Minister.

Mr. G. Collins

I would agree with the Deputy that there is room for great concern and that there are numbers of armed people in existence throughout the country who carry out armed robberies. I agree that every effort must be made at all times and that new methods must be found in an effort to combat the activities of those engaged in armed crime of this nature. It is encouraging to see that there has been benefit from reorganisation and improved measures that have taken place in recent times. For the information of the House I give briefly one or two other figures which should be of help in getting this into its proper perspective. In 1976 there were 185 armed robberies and in 1977 there were 298. There was a slight decrease in 1978 when the number was down to 287 and the figure for the present year is down to 203.

Mr. O'Keeffe

For the first ten months.

Mr. G. Collins

I said up to 12 October. I hope that the efforts of the Garda will be more successful than they have been, and they have been quite successful. Proper consultation takes place at the highest level between myself and the Garda to see to it that new and improved measures can be introduced that will be of benefit.

Mr. M. O'Leary

There may be slight improvement with the general trend towards more serious crime by armed groups. Does the Minister think that the time is opportune for a review of our present methods? There have been successes to the police but whether simple recruitment into the Garda Síochána is the only adequate answer is questionable since we are dealing with an increasingly serious situation.

Mr. G. Collins

It is not fair of the Deputy to say that the new measures in operation by the Garda have been only slightly successful. Again I point out to him that in 1977, for half of which year he was in Government, the figure was almost 300 and the figure for almost ten months of this year was down to 200. That in itself is a substantial improvement.

Mr. Mitchell

It is an annual rate of 250.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. G. Collins

I will answer any question the Deputy wishes to put to me. I tell Deputy O'Leary that I am satisfied that the Garda authorities are giving this matter the attention which they must give to it and which it deserves and they are constantly trying to get ahead of the criminals.

Dr. FitzGerald

While knowing the number of armed robberies which when annualised do not suggest any significant reduction, is it not the case that the amount taken is running at about four times what it was prior to June 1977? Is the Minister disturbed that the amount per robbery appears to have doubled since the Minister came into office? Drawing conclusions from that, are there any steps that he can take to combat the greater efficiency with which these robberies are being directed towards places where there are large sums of money?

Mr. G. Collins

I do not know how Deputy FitzGerald came to the conclusion on analysis of the figures that I have given that the improvement is only very slight. At some stage the Deputy might let me know how he came to that conclusion.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Dr. FitzGerald

For nine and a half months you get a figure of over 250.

Mr. G. Collins

I will deal with the supplementary question. I cannot understand how he got the analysis which he gave.

Mr. Mitchell

Let him give it now.

Mr. G. Collins

I did not hear it because I was in the middle of my reply to Deputy FitzGerald. I am, as is every citizen in the country, concerned about the amount of moneys that have been taken. Let me say again that in 1977 the amount of money taken was £.9 million whereas to date for 1979 it is not four times that amount as the Deputy suggested it was.

Mr. Keating

That is no consolation. What is the Minister going to do about the situation?

Mr. G. Collins

Am I going to be allowed to answer the question? The amount taken in robberies this year is £1.7 million.

Mr. M. O'Leary

Perhaps such a robbery is taking place at this moment.

Dr. FitzGerald

Perhaps the Minister will recall figures given in reply to earlier questions which if I recall them correctly show that in the period immediately preceding June 1977 the average amount per annum was £600,000. We are now talking about £2.3 million last year and a figure which at the present looks like being close to £2.3 million this year. If that, as he says, is from a smaller amount of robberies, it means that the amount per robbery is running at over four times the average figure for 1976 and the first half of 1977.

Mr. G. Collins

The leader of the Fine Gael Party is confusing himself with figures. I did not say that the amount taken for this year would be £2.3 million. The figure for 1977 was not £.6 million but £.9 million.

Dr. FitzGerald

I said that the figure for 1976 and the first half of 1977 was a rate of £600,000. The Minister knows that and he is trying to dodge it. He should take effective steps and stop trying to cover up.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): Has the Minister considered the new type of robbery with kidnapping?

Mr. G. Collins

Certainly.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): Does the Minister agree that that is a particularly objectionable type of crime? Has he any special proposals to deal with that?

Mr. G. Collins

There have been five robbery/kidnapping cases in recent times. The Garda have been successful in making a breakthrough in four of the five. There is one in Carlow, there is somebody before the courts for one in County Wicklow and there are two cases in County Louth before the courts at the moment. Of course, I am greatly concerned, because this is a new type of crime. Can I further say that it ill befits Deputy FitzGerald, the leader of the Fine Gael Party, to rebuff me for not taking improved measures, when he was a member of a Government that actually took armed gardaí off duty when they would not pay their wages.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. M. O'Leary

Surely it is an unsatisfactory response on the part of the Minister to a very serious situation to take refuge in this kind of political defence behind what took place under a previous Government? We are facing a serious situation. What is the Minister's reaction to this increasingly serious situation?

Mr. G. Collins

I did not bring the political element into it. Deputy FitzGerald did. I listed in my original reply measures taken by me since I was appointed Minister for Justice which have helped considerably to bring a decline in the pattern that was established when the people on the other side were in power.

Mr. Mitchell

The figures do not show that.

Mr. G. Collins

It is a fact that the build-up which I have introduced in the detective force and in the overall strength of the Garda has had a considerable impact in dealing with this particular type of crime. This build-up did not commence until I was appointed Minister for Justice.

Mr. O'Keeffe

Could the Minister give us the total moneys taken in armed robberies in the last full year of Coalition Government, 1976?

Mr. G. Collins

I have already given the figures. I have given the figure for 1976 as £.6 million and for 1977 as £.9 million.

Mr. Mitchell

The Minister did not give it.

Mr. G. Collins

I am giving it now.

Mr. Mitchell

The Minister did not give it earlier.

Mr. G. Collins

I was not asked for it in the question.

Dr. FitzGerald

It is exactly the figure I said.

Mr. G. Collins

It is £.6 million for 1976 and £.9 million for 1977.

Dr. FitzGerald

I was talking about the first half of 1977.

Mr. G. Collins

I am giving the only figure I have, which is for the full year 1977.

Mr. Mitchell

The facts and figures do not do the Minister any credit. Are his Department concerned with the Payment of Wages Bill currently before the Dáil? Would he accept that, if the Bill passes unamended, it will disimprove the situation as far as pay rolls are concerned because it will expose more rather than less pay rolls to robbery?

Mr. G. Collins

After two-and-a-half years in the House the Deputy should know where to direct a question like that.

Mr. Mitchell

That is not a reply to the question I asked.

Mr. G. Collins

The Deputy is getting a commonsense answer. If the Deputy is not being guided by some of his own people, he will have to be guided by me.

Dr. FitzGerald

Surely the Minister must be concerned with a four-fold increase in robberies and bring in legislation to deal with it?

Mr. G. Collins

I am particularly interested. If Deputy FitzGerald showed the same concern when he was in Government as he does now, things would not be half as bad as they are. That is a fact of life that the Deputies cannot get away from.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Minister is more concerned in what is happening in the Fianna Fáil Party Room. He is impatient because he cannot get upstairs. He has only five minutes to wait.

Mr. G. Collins

I am in no particular hurry.