It is proposed to take business in the following order: Nos. 7 (resumed), 8, 9 (resumed) and 4 and to take Private Members Business from 7 p.m. to 8.30 p.m., No. 25 (resumed). Business will be interrupted at 12.30 p.m. to take No. 8 and the order will be resumed thereafter. Business will be interrupted also at 3.30 p.m. to take No. 4 and by agreement there will be a limit of 30 minutes on the speeches for each Member in this debate with the final speakers from Fine Gael and Labour being called on not later than 5.30 p.m. and 6 p.m. respectively and the speaker for the Government being called not later than 6.30 p.m.
Order of Business.
Is it the intention of the Taoiseach to make a statement to the House concerning the meeting with the Secretary of State, Mr. Atkins?
No. It would not be customary to do so.
Would it not be extremely beneficial to inform the House as to what exchange of views took place at the meeting and also to hear the views of other parties represented in this House?
I do not think it would be beneficial at this stage to do as the Deputy suggests. He will appreciate that conversations and discussions of this sort can often be more valuable if they are of a confidential nature.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that the phraseology being used is a departure from that which has been used in the past and that there is ambiguity as to what precisely this phraseology means?
We may not have a debate on the matter at this stage.
What was issued was an agreed communiqué and it is not open to either side to go beyond what is agreed should be stated in a communiqué.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that there is considerable confusion as to what precisely is his policy on Northern Ireland?
That is the Deputy's opinion.
Would it not be beneficial from the point of view of all concerned for the Taoiseach to give a clear indication as to his policy on Northern Ireland?
Might the matter raised by the Leader of the Labour Party be dealt with in the context of a debate on Northern Ireland? There has been some discussion about a debate of that kind. I am not happy with the idea that the matter should be taken by way of a debate on the Estimate for the Department of Foreign Affairs. There are many precedents for debates in the House on Northern Ireland and there are many other issues relative to the Department of Foreign Affairs which would appropriately be debated separately. Consequently, I am asking the Taoiseach to make arrangements at an early date for a debate on Northern Ireland during which we could raise these issues of the doubts and ambiguities which arise in people's minds. I urge the Taoiseach to agree to a separate debate on this issue.
There is a good deal of force in that argument.
Does that mean that the Taoiseach will make time available in the immediate future for such a debate?
I will make time available for a discussion on Northern Ireland but I think the timing of any such debate is important. If certain meetings which are projected come to fruition it might be as well to have the debate afterwards when it might be more useful, more informative and more constructive. However, that is a matter that I am prepared to discuss with the Leaders of both Opposition parties.
There is an alternative view, but since the Taoiseach says he is prepared to discuss the matter I shall not pursue that point here.
Yesterday I put down a Private Notice question to the Taoiseach.
The Deputy may not discuss that now.
I am seeking the guidance of the Chair. A young woman lost her life at the weekend while crossing the Border between Counties Tyrone and Donegal.
The Deputy submitted a Private Notice question in that regard but it was rejected.
That is so and my request to raise the matter on the Adjournment was rejected also. In these circumstances I should like the Chair to enlighten me as to how I might raise matters of this kind, matters which affect his constituents as well as mine.
If the Deputy calls at my office I shall give him the reason for his request being turned down.
I represent the people of Donegal who use the Border checkpoint in question. I use it myself about ten times each week and the same applies to my family, so that it might have been one of us who was killed. There is no reason for my having to remain silent when people who use that checkpoint are in danger of being shot. That is why I am protesting in the strongest terms possible about your ruling, a ruling which suggests that you are protecting this thin veneer of a Fianna Fáil Party led by Deputy Charles Haughey, a man who day dreams about Irish unity.
That is a wrong accusation to make against the Chair.
I make no apology for this accusation. The reason I have given would seem to me to be the only one for you refusing to allow me raise the matter in the House.
The Deputy should withdraw this statement that the Chair is protecting someone.
I withdraw it though I believe it to be true. A young woman's life was lost as a result of the wrong judgment of senior officers in the British Army in having young boys of 19 in charge of guns.
The Deputy is seeking to raise the matter in a disorderly fashion.
There is no reason for my accepting your judgment. The House is being reduced to a sham by reason of public representatives being denied the right to express their views on the shooting to death of an innocent Irish person.
The Deputy should resume his seat.
The British soldiers should not be there in the first place.
That is not the point.
It is the basic point.
Is it right that a boy of 19 should be in charge of a lethal weapon? I was denied the opportunity of raising yesterday the matter of the death of an innocent woman or of asking the Taoiseach to raise the matter at the meeting with the Secretary of State. Why was the matter not raised at that meeting?
I am asking the Deputy to leave the House.
Why?
Because he is refusing to obey the Chair.
While I bow to your ruling I protest against it in the strongest terms possible because it is biased in the extreme. You have forgotten that you were the deputy leader of the Fianna Fáil Party.
I would ask the Deputy to withdraw that statement.
I will withdraw it, but I want to say that it defies——
Without any equivocation.
It defies human nature to expect even somebody with your high standards to throw off the shawl of deputy leader of the Fianna Fáil Party and not protect them.
Will the Deputy please resume his seat?
It is unfortunate that I have to lower the level of this House. An innocent woman was shot dead. You, Sir, are to blame for this. It could have been raised in a more dignified way but you forced me——
It is certainly not being raised in a dignified way.
You are at fault, you and you alone. As a Donegal man I have very little respect for you. It could have been one of your constituents and, if it had been, you would have been asking me to raise the matter.
The Deputy is bringing in personal matters about the Chair which the Chair does not accept.
Why should I should not bring in personal matters when a mother and wife has been killed?
I will ask the Deputy to leave the House. Will the Deputy please leave the House if he will not withdraw the statement he has made?
I refuse to leave the House because I feel so sure about this. Your judgment is wrong in the extreme.
Is the Deputy leaving the House? I will ask the Minister to name the Deputy.