Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 10 Jun 1980

Vol. 322 No. 1

Finance Bill, 1980: Financial Resolution.

Minister for Finance (Mr. O'Kennedy)

I move:

That provision be made in the Act giving effect to this Resolution for the imposition of a duty of excise, in the manner and to the extent specified in that Act, on—

(a) public dancing licences granted under the Public Dance Halls Act, 1935 (No. 2 of 1935),

(b) occasional licences granted under the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1962 (No. 21 of 1962),

(c) special exemption orders granted under the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1927 (No. 15 of 1927), or the said Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1962, and

(d) authorisations to clubs granted under the Intoxicating Liquor (General) Act, 1924 (No. 62 of 1924), or the said Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1962.

The effect of this resolution is to impose new excise duties with effect from 1 October on existing non-excise licences for dance halls and also on the granting of those extensions of licensing hours for the sale of intoxicating liquor which are normally associated with dances. The vast majority of these extensions are granted under special exemption orders to hotels and restaurants. The intention to impose taxes on dances, discos, cabarets, dinner dances and so on was mentioned in the Financial Statement by me on budget day.

Mr. P. Barry

Can the Minister say how much money this is expected to bring in in the current financial year, October, November and December, and in a full year?

Mr. O'Kennedy

The expected yield will be of the order of £400,000 for the remainder of this year and about three times that amount in a full year.

Mr. P. Barry

This is an additional list to an amendment circulated this morning to section 72 of the Finance Act. It is an indication of the depths to which the Government are going to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get any few shillings into the kitty. They could not think up in time a full comprehensive list of what they wanted to increase when they were printing the Finance Bill. Now they come along at almost the eleventh hour on Committee Stage of the Bill seeking to have an amendment included, the financial resolution on today's Order Paper, for £400,000. That is an indication of the state the Government have got the country into.

Mr. O'Keeffe

Before I make my contribution, will the Minister indicate the percentages by which these charges are being increased?

Mr. O'Kennedy

There is no existing excise duty in respect of these licences and what is proposed is that excise duties will apply henceforth. There are no percentages involved.

Mr. O'Keeffe

Is there not stamp duty?

Mr. O'Kennedy

That is a different matter. This is in respect of the excise duty.

Mr. P. Barry

Is it stamp duty and excise now?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There may only be statements.

Mr. O'Keeffe

The House should be clear about what is involved. When I was practising as a solicitor stamp duty was paid if one applied for a temporary dance licence, annual dance licence, special exemption or an extension of hours for a club. I gather from the Minister that the proposal to raise extra money is not by increasing stamp duty but by imposing a separate excise levy.

Mr. O'Kennedy

There is no stamp duty applicable in such cases. The Deputy may have court fees in mind as distinct from stamp duty.

Mr. O'Keeffe

Court stamps.

Mr. O'Kennedy

It is a different matter. What is being introduced is an excise duty on these licences. I have indicated that there has not been an excise duty hitherto. As regards what Deputy Barry said, I indicated in the budget statement that I intended to introduce a provision of this nature. I also indicated the reasons and, having regard to the rates of revenue in the areas in which it is to be collected, I indicated clearly that it was my opinion, as distinct from the amount of money involved which is not a major element, that it would be approiate and in accordance with the socio-economic climate to look to this and other areas. I saw this as being an element of the pursuance of equity in the taxation code generally and that it would be appropriate that areas such as those I am now making provision for should be subject to some such charge.

I acknowledge that this might have been announced in the Finance Bill earlier. In view of the extensive nature of this year's Bill and the matters to be covered in some of the resolutions I have introduced by way of ease and concession—there will be further resolutions of that nature—it was not possible to have all these included in the original text of the Finance Bill.

Mr. P. Barry

Of course it was.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Many of the things I have done by way of amendment, as Deputies will know, have been concessions. In doing what I am doing today I am not taking anyone by surprise because I indicated that I proposed to do it in the budget statement.

Mr. O'Keeffe

Having got the information——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If we are having a debate on it, each Member will have to say his piece, whatever it is, and the Minister can reply. That is the way a debate on this or any motion is conducted.

Mr. O'Keeffe

Some parts of the duties being imposed are very much a tax on the young. I am particularly concerned about the one in regard to a dance licence. There are annual dance licences in respect of which £100 will be levied. There are also monthly licences in respect of which the Minister proposes to levy £15.

There are many small clubs, tennis clubs, GAA clubs and so on that run one dance in the year. They obtain a monthly licence even though it is only for one dance. The Minister should bear in mind that this will be an additional charge on top of what they have to pay from the point of view of court fees and so on and it will make the running of such dances a very uneconomic proposition. I suggest to the Minister that some extension or way out should be provided for clubs and organisations running a single dance in the year. The effect of the present situation is that the Minister may rule out that possibility for them altogether.

The other charges are very high from the point of view of the annual dance of local Fianna Fáil cumainn. If they want an exemption, apart from the present court fees to be paid, they will be paying £25 for the special exemption, which will materially increase the cost. I accept that many special exemptions are obtained because the Acts dealing with intoxicating liquor, which we would be better off without, have not been updated. There are many organisations who run an annual dance and this charge will affect them. The Minister's statement that he is merely introducing equity in the tax system rings hollow. In many cases these additional levies will amount to a tax on young people and the Minister should think twice before proceeding with this.

Mr. Bruton

Sports organisations rely for their finances on this kind of dance. The Government are giving substantial sums of money to sports organisations. It seems to be silly and very much a circular payment situation for the Government to give out money to clubs to establish facilities and then, by imposing a tax on dances, deprive them of an independent source of revenue. It would be better to encourage them to finance themselves by giving them the opportunity of running dances without this kind of tax rather than involving them in the bureaucracy of giving grants and at the same time taking taxation from them. The Minister should consider exempting sports clubs from these taxes. He is a man who is interested in encouraging sports and I am sure he is aware that these dances are one of the ways they get revenue to enable them to do their work.

Mr. Enright

It is expected that £400,000 will be collected under this tax from people who are not in a position to pay it. The Minister should bear in mind that many of the dances held on an annual basis are held for charitable purposes and the promoters of such functions must now pay the usual stamp duty together with this new excise duty. There is no doubt that the admission charges to such functions will have to be increased as a result of that. Many sporting organisations run dances to get them out of financial difficulties which arose because they crected halls to cater for such games as badminton and table tennis and they will now be penalised. The only source of revenue for such organisations was through dances. Taking into consideration the additional tax imposed on mineral waters and this tax in relation to dances, the budget has hit young people very hard. We should be helping clubs involved in promoting games for our youth instead of discouraging them. This tax on dances will be a disincentive to them. It is unfair and inequitable. The Minister spoke of bringing equity into the tax system but he has not done so in relation to this matter. It is, in fact, unjust.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): There is an evil taking place at present in the form of dancing in licensed premises such as hotels and restaurants. Legitimate dance halls which operate on the lines stated by Deputy Enright are under pressure from such licensed premises. Rural and urban halls that do not have a liquor licence are finding it difficult to carry on because of competition from licensed hotels and lounge bars. I appeal to the Minister to exclude halls that do not have a licence for the sale of intoxicating liquor from his proposals. I am sure the Minister will agree that there is a big demand for such an amendment.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I should like to refute some of the suggestions put forward to the effect that this represents an attack on our young people. I heard that suggestion put forward in respect of other aspects of my budget but from the Opposition only.

Mr. Enright

The Minister must not have listened to some branches of his own organisation.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I did not interrupt Deputies opposite and they should give me an opportunity to deal with the points they put forward. This provision is in respect of four different areas, the first of which is the annual public dancing licence for dance halls. The proposed duty will be £100 for the year. For a shorter period, which normally amounts to one month, the charge will be £15. That is the only element that relates to dancing as distinct from the main characteristic of the provision, occasional licences, special exemption orders or authorisations under the Intoxicating Liquor Act—the other three elements I spoke of. The dance hall licence will cost £100 per annum and £25 for occasional licences granted under sections 11 or 13 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act. The latter entitles a publican to sell intoxicating liquor at a place other than his own licensed premises on the occasion of a special event such as a convention or dinner dance. I understand that this licence, apart from allowing for the sale of intoxicating liquor outside normal drinking hours, can be for a period of up to nine days. The third element imposes an excise duty of £25 on every special exemption order issued under the Intoxicating Liquor Acts permitting late drinking. Those orders are issued only to hotels and restaurants in respect of special occasions.

I am not taking on the role of the Minister for Justice but I should like to mention that in 1979 more than 42,000 special exemption orders were issued. These proposals are directed, not against dance halls, but in respect of exemptions and extensions of late night drinking authorisations in clubs. In my view they are matters which call for an appropriate contribution. In my budget statement I made it clear that while I do not present myself as a killjoy—from my habits or otherwise I do not think I can be seen as such—I feel that there are areas of life, whether it be racecourse betting, late night drinking or exemptions for dances and discos or otherwise, which should make an appropriate contribution. My proposal is geared towards that. I do not accept that this is a tax on the young. There may be the exceptional case, but if the Opposition persist in suggesting that this represents a tax on the young they might as well go further and acknowledge that it is the young who are engaged in late night drinking. That may be true, but as far as my responsibility goes I want to ensure that all those areas are subject to an appropriate contribution. I do not think I have imposed an impossible position on dance halls by raising the licence fee to £100 per annum.

Mr. Enright

The Minister told us of the three elements but I should like to know what the position is in relation to the fourth, clubs and so on.

Mr. O'Kennedy

It will be £25 on authorisations issued under the Intoxicating Liquor Acts to those clubs that are registered under the Registration of Clubs Act to sell intoxicating liquor outside the normal hours. Each club is entitled to a maximum of 15 authorisations per year. This is for the sale of intoxicating liquor outside normal hours. I want to make clear that we are not talking about charities, about voluntary organisations being crucified. People may say that, but anybody who attempts to bring in any amending provisions here will find, as was found in the course of other discussions, that you can always say what you want in plain language but when you begin to put it down either in a resolution or in legislation you find that while it covers 95 per cent of the cases you have in mind there may always be the 3 or 4 per cent of cases that are not specifically what you are concerned with also included. The reality is that in dealing with the issue, sometimes the problem, you may find that some very exceptional cases are also covered.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): Does the Minister not think that by taxing dancehalls, properly so-called, he is driving young people into the lounge bars and licensed premises?

Mr. O'Kennedy

No. In fact I would hope that, having regard to my budget provisions generaly and what I am now doing in respect of late night dancing and drinking, occasional meals and "substantial meals" on some occasions, I am weighting the balance the other way.

Mr. O'Keeffe

While supporting much of what the Minister says about drink, I am particularly concerned about local organisations running the single dance, not going to the big dance-hall, running the tennis hop or GAA social, a dance with no drink and no food——

Mr. O'Kennedy

There is no licence in respect of that.

Mr. O'Keeffe

If they are charging a fee they have to get a licence, a single licence.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): £15.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Nothing I am doing here has any effect on that——

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): It has.

Mr. O'Kennedy

——except in respect of the hall itself, not the dance, once a year.

Mr. O'Keeffe

The £15 licence is the one I am concerned about. I have often applied for it, not in respect of a big dance-hall but for the purpose of running a single dance. They have to apply for a temporary dance licence. They have to pay about £10 in respect of dance duty, court fees on application and so on. Now they will have to pay a separate £15. I suggest to the Minister that this is the worst aupect of the matter as I see it. Apart from the fact there is no drinking involved, young people are involved and local voluntary organisations are involved and there is a strong case to be made to remove those categories from this levy.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. O'Keeffe

I disagree strongly on that point.