Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 Nov 1980

Vol. 324 No. 6

Supplementary Estimates, 1980. - Vote 3: Department of the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £959,500 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1980, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of the Taoiseach, and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to give the House details of the Supplementary Estimate on Vote 3, which is the Vote for my Department and also the Supplementary Estimate on Vote 5 for An Chomhairle Ealaiéon.

The Supplementary Estimate for my Department amounts to £959,500.

The first element in this Supplementary Estimate is a provision of £82,000 for the National Economic and Social Council. The Government have asked NESC to review and report on, as soon as possible, industrial policy in the manufacturing and services sector. A sum of £30,000 had been allocated by NESC for work in this area during 1980. Further work was to be undertaken during 1981. In view of the Government's desire to have the council's recommendations at an early date, it was agreed by the council that outside expertise in industrial policy from a national perspective should be used in order to have the project completed by the end of 1980. The sum now sought, £82,000, arises from the fact that all the cost relating to this work will now be borne during 1890.

The supplementary amount required by the National Board for Science and Technology in 1980 is £835,000. This amount will enable the board to meet commitments in such areas as marine research, environmental studies, educational grants and the employment of research worker in the higher education sector.

The third element in this Supplementary Estimate is the provision of £65,000 towards the cost of a major study which has been commissioned by the Government on the impact of microelectronics in Ireland. This study will examine the possible effects of this technology on different sectors of the economy. The Government wish to be fully apprised of all the implications in order to take whatever steps are necessary to meet the challenge which the ongoing development of high technology and its ever-increasing use in all sectors of industrial and commercial life presents. The National Board for Science and Technology is undertaking the groundwork for the study and State-sponsored bodies, the Confederation of Irish Industry and the trade unions will also be involved. The study, which will take two years to complete, will cost £130,000. The cost in 1980 is £65,000 and I will be seeking to provide for the balance in next year's Estimate for my Department. The European Commission have agreed to contribute 50 per cent of the cost and this is reflected in the printed Supplementary Estimate, which was circulated to Members, as an appropriation-in-aid.

The final elment in the Supplementary Estimate is a provision of £10,000 in respect of the management and running of the National Concert Hall, Earlsfort Terrace, Dublin, for the remainder of 1980. Most Deputies will be familiar with the background to the establishment of the National Concert Hall. The Government announced in May 1974 a proposal for the conversion of the Great Hall and ancillary accommodation in the old UCD building at Earlsfort Terrace to provide a base for the RTE Symphony Orchrstra and a concert hall suitable for orchestral recitals.

The board of directors of the company have not yet been appointed, but I expect to be in a position to make an announcement shortly in that regard.

The financing of the company will be by way of a grant-in-aid from the Vote for my Department and this income will be supplemented by box-office receipts and letting fees. It is difficult at this stage to estimate the financial assistance which the company will require annually, but the directors will be expected to ensure that the concert hall will be self-financing to the greatest extent that circumstances permit. The figure of £10,000 for this year should amply cover the initial costs of the company.

I am sure that the concert hall will be a most welcome and vital addition to our cultural life and I know that members of this House will join with me in wishing the venture every success.

I now turn to the Supplementary Estimate for An Chomhairle Ealaiéon. This will cover increased salary, overtime and social insurance payments in the Abbey Theatre — arising mainly from the implementation of recommendations in a report by Senator Dr. T. K. Whitaker on the remuneration level of Abbey actors. It will also meet the financial cost of transferring reasponsibility for funding certain items from Bord Faéilte to the council, with effect from 1 January, 1980.

As well as the pay element the Supplementary Estimate reflects the fact that, at Bord Faéilte's request, several projects which the board financed, or jointly financed with others, have not been transferred to the Arts Council and it would not be reasonable to expect the council to take over responsibility for assistance to those organisations without an addition to their annual grant. This I am now doing by way of an increased grant to the council.

Mr. Kelly

I want to begin by taking the item in the Supplementary Estimate relating to the National Board for Science and Technology. Briefly, the Government made it clear, when the concept of a national science budget was mooted and introduced, that it would be subject to debate in this House. I hope that the Government have not forgotten that intention and that when the question of debating a national science budget is raised in this House by anybody from these benches or from the Labour Party benches, we shall not be told in the kind of tone we have heard recently that this is a matter for the Whips, as though it were some remote and eccentric whim of the Opposition that they wish to debate such a matter, which, as I say, the Government last year went out of its way to make clear would be the subject of regular debate here. I do not make any further allegations other than that, because the speech we have just heard made no reference to the science budget, good or bad, or to the intention to debate it. I hope that it will be brought before this House in a debatable form and not after pushing and shoving by the Opposition.

The second thing I want to say relates to the circulation of the report of the National Economic and Social Council for which a grant-in-aid is provided in this Supplementary Estimate. I am speaking now about the report which was leaked to and summarised in The Irish Times yesterday. It is clear, — and I hope I am not wrong in interpreting it like this — from the internal evidence of that summary, assuming it is an accurate summary, that that report was completed many weeks ago.

Mr. B. Desmond

Months ago.

Mr. Kelly

I stand corrected, months ago. It is clear that the unemployment projections in it are so far overhauled by events that they must have been written on paper some time back in the very early autumn and perhaps even at the end of summer. I cannot put an exact date on it, but it certainly looks like that. It looks as though those figures were put down at a time when the avalanche of redundancies; closures and short-times which we have seen in the last months had not yet made the appropriate impression on the people who put that report together.

I simply do not believe — of course, it was not said here by anybody, but in case anybody hereafter should say it — that that report in substance, if not word for word, has not been available to the Government for many months. I believe it has been so available. When the deputy leader of the Labour Party asked across the floor of the House yesterday when he would have the benefit of the Government's reaction to this report he was told that the ordinary procedures were being adhered to, that the NESC had submitted their report, and that it went to various Government Departments for their observations before it would be returned to the Government. I should like to know the reason for the delay in the circulation of this report which has spread now over at least two months. Perhaps Deputy Desmond is right when he guessed it is probably more than that.

What useful observations have the Department of Defence, for example, got to make on the NESC Report that could not be made in ten minutes after finishing perusal of it? What observations have the Department of Education got that could not be made within a day or two after perusal of the report? What observations have the Department of the Environment got — I am working up the scale in terms of strictly economic relevance — that would not be available, if that Department was interested in getting the report out before it became obsolete and unless, overtaken by the shambles the Government are putting the country into all around us, within a couple of days of perusing that report? What observations could the Department of Finance, now presided over by Deputy O'Kennedy——

The Taoiseach

I wish to raise a point of order. I seek the guidance of the Chair. The Supplementary Estimate with which we are concerned deals with a report by the National Economic and Social Council which has not yet been completed or published and which is not the report about which the Deputy is speaking. I seek the guidance of the Chair as to whether the Deputy is in order or whether his remarks should be confined to the report covered by the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Kelly

Surely it would not kill the Taoiseach to hear a little about a report the Government have been sitting on for the past three months.

An Ceann Comhairle

The remarks should be confined to what is covered in the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Kelly

I would be sorry if the nice things said about the Chair, and sincerely said, a couple of weeks ago would turn sour and I do not wish to be the first to make them do so but I have the distinct recollection in my few years in the House of Cinn Comhairle allowing discussion on Supplementary Estimates to range somewhat beyond the actual matter for which they were presented. That was done particularly in a case like this where I am dealing not with the general work of the Department but with the specific work of one of the bodies under that Department. If that body had underspent its general allocation, if it had not been necessary, because of savings under other heads, to raise this extra money, this Supplementary Estimate would not be before us. Accordingly, it seems to me to be opposite — I do not wish to fight with the Chair over this — to mention this NESC Report which absolutely contradicts everything which the Government, from their leader down, and that is quite far, have said and have been saying over the last months about the way the economy is going and the influences which were at work upon it. Every single thing is contradicted and I consider it a disgrace that a report of this kind could be sat upon for so long until it is virtually useless, a museum piece, a piece that might as well be a report on the National Museum to take an instance from a former Department headed by the present occupant of the Chair when three years elapsed between the time the report was signed and finally published.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should now confine himself to the subject matter before us.

Mr. Kelly

I should like to say one final thing before I leave the subject of the NESC and I hope it will not be interpreted by anyone as an attack on a public servant. I hate those mealy-mouthed ripostes to political charges which take the line that one cannot say a certain thing because one is hitting a man who is not here to defend himself. I am not hitting a man but I am saying that this event points up the appositeness of what was said from this side of the House when the former practice of appointing an outside chairman was departed from and when a chairman was appointed who was the Secretary of the Department of the Public Service.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not proceed on that line. He should confine himself to what is in the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Kelly

Perhaps I have said enough about it. The third thing I wish to say with regard to the Supplementary Estimate — I hope it will not fall foul of the Chair's good temper — bears on the operations of An Chomhairle Ealaiéon. I hope I am in order if I make a modest suggestion for a useful national job, of a kind which once upon a time the leaders of the State did not think it beneath them to take a bit of modest interest in the sense of recognising their own limitations. I should like to suggest a job for An Chomhairle Ealaiéon which is that they should be asked by some Minister — I do not care which because as far as I can remember they can give advice to any Minister who asks for it — to look at the situation in regard to the design of our coinage which once was a matter of world pride and now is a matter of shame and disgrace. I do not wish to say anything which will wound the relations of the people who are responsible for producing the design.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is outside the scope of this debate.

Mr. Kelly

Let us keep our two feet on the ground. This Supplementary Estimate refers to An Chomhairle Ealaiéon.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am doing my best to keep everybody's feet on the ground.

Mr. Kelly

The Chair cannot pretend, I hope, that I am confined only to the items on which this money is to be spent. I wish Deputy Cluskey was here to raise a more eloquent voice than mine on matters of procedure. The Chair has now introduced an unprecedented limitation, in my short experience, of the way the Daéil works. The present coinage is a monument to the Taoiseach's taste and pride. More than once he has attempted to evade responsibility for it by saying, untruly, that a competition was held for it and by saying, again untruly, that the Central Bank was the organ responsible for producing it. It is shabby, the design is awkward——

An Ceann Comhairle

Surely the Deputy will accept that this is not a matter to be dealt with under an Chomhairle Ealaiéon. The Supplementary Estimate, strictly speaking, relates to a specific area and the Deputy will have to confine himself to this.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy's personal venom knows no bounds.

Mr. Kelly

The remark just made imputes to me personal venom. I should like to assure the Deputy who made that remark that as far as I am aware he has never done me any personal harm and, I suppose, has never had any reason to do so. I harbour no personal venom whatever but I regarded him on 6 December last year as unsuitable for the post which he now holds, I am sorry to say. I still regard him as unsuitable.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to confine himself to what the money is being allocated for. If anything else was the situation we would be debating the entire Estimate.

Mr. Kelly

I remember sweating through almost four years as Government Whip and that the Opposition during that time went to the moon and back in pursuit of Ministers on Supplementary Estimates.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have no doubt that the Ceann Comhairle endeavoured to keep the speakers on the right line at that time, just as the Chair is doing now.

Mr. Kelly

The Ceann Comhairle then was a Labour Deputy — I do not mean any reflection on the Chair — who believed in giving everybody a fair crack of the whip. We put with that for four-and-a-half years just as we put up with the Frank Hall show which the gentlemen opposite are too tender skinned to listen to.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am certainly more than willing to give a fair crack of the whip but surely the Deputy has plenty of scope within the limits of what the money is being made available for?

The Taoiseach

It is like the psychiatrist's couch; it is all pouring out now.

Mr. Kelly

The psychiatrist's couch is a topic which we need not explore here. The matters which I feel strongly about I make no secret of and anybody who may do me the compliment of taking an interest in them will recognise that some of the things I have been saying are some old hobby horses of mine, some old chestnuts. I freely admit that, I am not a bit ashamed of it. At least I feel sorry about some things and I do not think it can be said about me that I do not give a damn, a comment which is at the root of my objection to the present incumbency of the leadership of the Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Kelly

I am aware of that but something has just been said of a personally offensive nature about me. I do not object to that. I take that in my stride, as part of the day's work, part of what we are paid to put up with but I believe I am entitled to hand it out as well as take it.

There are three things arising on the subhead to which I wish to draw the attention of the House. If you will allow me, Sir, I would like to say something a good deal less contentious and brief about the Department generally taken to have parliamentary responsibility for the way the Daéil works. I will be very short if you will indulge me. I will not give the House any rhetoric about this. I believe there is a strong case for relaxing in two types of instances the six-month rule applied to parliamentary questions. The first instance is the way in which a reply is given in the form of a tabular statement. Secondly, the form of written replies.

An Ceann Comhairle

How can that possibly arise on this Estimate?

Mr. Kelly

It arises on the Estimate for the Taoiseach's Department. I admit it does not arise on the subhead.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot expect me to allow this. Surely the Deputy can find another time to raise the matter. It is not in order on this subhead.

Mr. Kelly

There are only two occasions in the year on which one can say anything about the way in which the Daéil works. One would be on an Adjournment Debate or a Budget debate, although I remember a budget debate being cut fairly short by your predecessor. The other is on the Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach. Do not forget that the Estimate's first sub-title is a supplementary estimate for the amount required for the year ending 31 December 1980 for the salaries and expenses of the Department of the Taoiseach and for payment of certain grants-in-aid. Surely we will acquiesce in an unprecedented abridgment of the customs of speech here if the general affairs of the Department are not allowed to be mentioned even briefly, even in passing, on this Estimate. The same goes for other Departments. I do not make a special case for this Department.

An Ceann Comhairle

Surely the Deputy will accept that the rules of the House which he is raising now are a matter for the House, not for the Taoiseach.

Mr. Kelly

I am not here anything like as long as you are and I may be wrong about this. I certainly recall in our time — and I do not think anyone on our side felt any sense of grievance about it — the Taoiseach's Estimate was the accepted platform from which to make observations — and I promise these are not polemical in any way — about the way in which the House works.

An Ceann Comhairle

The problem is that if I were to allow them simply on that basis, I would have to allow them if they were polemical.

Mr. Kelly

I see that that is true. While reserving our position about the way in which Supplementary Estimate debates are conducted, I respectfully disagree with your ruling. I would ask for your indulgence to make some general observations quickly. I have already made one and I have only two more to go in regard to the way the House works. I will not get another opportunity——

An Ceann Comhairle

It is totally out of order.

Mr. Kelly

No, it is not.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is, of course.

Mr. Kelly

If I wait until the Adjournment Debate——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have already explained that the Taoiseach is not responsible for the Standing Orders of the House. They are the House's responsibility.

Mr. Kelly

May I point out that the manner in which questions are answered is only partly a matter for the Standing Orders? They do not dictate the criteria on which a Minister must decide to give an oral rather than a written reply. He can decide that for himself.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not want to waste the time of the House. I would be obliged if the Deputy would obey the Chair.

Mr. Kelly

Very well.

Mr. B. Desmond

I wish to make four or five points very briefly on this Supplementary Estimate. I welcome the provision of £82,000 for the National Economic and Social Council. I welcome the fact that the NESC have been asked to review and report as soon as possible on industrial policy in the manufacturing and services sector. This will prove to be a particularly useful and valuable exercise. I do not want to sound unduly contentious but I hope when the report is made available to the Government by the NESC it will be published as rapidly as possible and not suffer the fate of the current report which is being hawked around from Department to Department.

The Taoiseach

I assure the Deputy that I am taking steps to try to get it published immediately.

Mr. B. Desmond

Thank you. I welcome the supplementary estimate of £835,000 for the National Board for Science and Technology. I was very taken aback when I saw the Book of Estimates for 1980 and the slashing in it. I put it down to the blood letting after the demise of the Department of Economic Planning and Development. The Taoiseach not only kicked out the Minister and his Department, but also half of that valuable estimate in the process. The NBST were equally taken aback to find themselves minus almost £1 million. Fortunately common sense prevailed in later months and on second thoughts the Taoiseach decided magnanimously to provide those moneys for basic, ongoing and fundamental research by that board. I am glad that exercise is over now and that the board can get on with their work. I have no doubt that their contribution will be effective not only in that area but also in the area of micro electronics where they are doing some valuable work and where we need a great deal of expertise at national level.

I welcome the £10,000 for the national concert hall. I hope the Taoiseach will nominate a board of directors as soon as possible. I hope the board will be as broadly based as possible.

The Taoiseach

Would the Deputy like to go on it himself?

Mr. B. Desmond

I know many people who would go on it willingly.

The Taoiseach

I would be glad to accept suggestions.

Mr. B. Desmond

That would be most welcome. Many people who are involved in cultural and artistic activities in our community would be willing to serve on it. I welcome the rationalisation of the supplementary Estimate for An Chomhairle Ealaiéon. Because of the peripheral involvement of Bord Fáilte in certain areas an element of confusion has arisen in some respects, and I am glad it has been sorted out. The House will have done a useful morning's work in giving the Taoiseach this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Griffin

On behalf of this side of the House I welcome the Supplementary Estimate for An Chomhairle Ealaiéon. Unfortunately, down through the years there has been no Government policy on the Arts. Perhaps the Taoiseach would have a White Paper on the arts prepared to give the Arts their proper place in our society. Recently on behalf of the Arts Council, Ciaraén Benson published a paper, "The Place of Arts in Irish Society" and made 119 recommendations. If they were implemented the place of the arts in our educational system initially and then in society would be established.

The Taoiseach

I find it difficult to hear the Deputy. I am genuinely interested in what he has to say. I know his interest in the matter.

Mr. Griffin

I will start again. On behalf of this side of the House I welcome the Supplementary Estimate and especially the figure of £300,000 for An Chomhairle Ealaiéon. Down through the years the Arts Council have been totally underfinanced and any extra funding is welcome. Due to the ravages of inflation this increase to £300,000 to the Arts Council will not be the success we might have hoped but it at least shows the goodwill of the Taoiseach and his Department in giving the arts their proper place in our society. Recently at the behest of the Arts Council Mr. Ciaran Benson produced a very worthwhile document on the place of the arts in our educational system and he made 119 recommendations. If the Taoiseach and the Minister for Education implemented some of these recommendations the place of arts in our society would be firmly established.

We commend the input being made by the 17 members of the Arts Council on a voluntary unpaid basis. The Taoiseach might consider issuing a White Paper on the scope of arts in society as this area has been neglected throughout the years. Unfortunately during recessions things especially in the artistic world are pushed to the side. That is quite understandable when our first consideration must be employment and so on. Despite any recession I suggest that the Taoiseach should consider continually funding the Arts Council to enable them to continue their splendid work.

I am glad that the national concert hall is nearing fruition. It is amazing that it took so many years for our capital city to have such a hall, but it is better late than never. When appointing the board of directors I hope the Minister will appoint people with the necessary experience, expertise and artistic background so that we will have a national concert hall worthy of this city.

I also welcome the help being given to the actors in the Abbey Theatre. The Taoiseach has included funds for increases of salary, for overtime and social insurance for actors in the Abbey and he may extend that to include all actors. I know the Taoiseach recently introduced an amendment order which enables funds for the Arts Council to be used to help dependants of creative workers in the arts. This is a very welcome trend. I would refer the Taoiseach to the recent survey carried out on behalf of the Arts Council by Irish Marketing Surveys Limited which is called "Living and working conditions of artists". A small synopsis of that report gives very disturbing figures in respect of creative artists. About two-thirds of artists have made no provision for pensions: the vast majority experience a month of unemployment each year and that period ranges from six to seven months in some cases, 75 per cent of creative and 50 per cent of interpretative artists have jobs in addition to their artistic work. Some teach in subjects related to their artistic work but 28 per cent of creative artists and one-third of interpretative artists have jobs ranging from community director to waiter, entirely outside of their artistic occupation. I just mention that to bring to the Taoiseach's attention the conditions under which artists have to live. Surely in a caring community we should ensure that artistic people are not living on the breadline. On behalf of the Fine Gael Party I welcome this effort to give support to the actors in the Abbey Theatre and hope that in next year's budget the recommendations of the report on the working and living conditions of artists will be taken into consideration.

I compliment the Taoiseach on his continued interest in the arts and I look forward to discussing An Chomhairle Ealaiéon in greater detail on the main Estimate. I understand that in this debate we are restricted purely to the Supplementary Estimate. Perhaps when replying the Taoiseach will tell us what functions were transferred from Bord Faéilte to the Arts Council so that we will have a full background to the new workings of An Chomhairle Ealaiéon.

The Taoiseach

I will take the last question first. Generally speaking these are festivals which were funded and subsidised by An Bord Faéilte up to now and they are being transferred to the Arts Council.

The two main points emerging from this debate was the proposal by Deputy Desmond about the composition of the board of directors and the new concert hall. I hope to constitute that board very soon and I agree that it should be broadly representative and that the membership will be of considerable importance because a great deal of the potential success or otherwise of the concert hall will depend on the experience and qualifications of the membership of the board. I hope we will be able to provide a broadly based representative board to operate the new concert hall.

The other matter raised was about the general scope of the operation of the Arts Council. The suggestion that a White Paper might be prepared on the future of the arts is interesting and I would certainly consider it. I have spoken on occasions about some of the problems which confront the Arts Council and the one which is occupying most people's attention at the moment is the problem of individual artists. In this connection the report published about working conditions of artists is of great interest and value. I assure Deputies that this problem is under very active consideration at the moment.

Deputies know that a subsidiary aspect of the problem was dealt with in this House and in the Seanad yesterday when we took power to subsidise through the Arts Council the Coiste Colmcille. That fund is available to help out artists who have fallen on bad times and their dependants. As I explained in the Seanad yesterday that is only one comparatively minor area of the whole problem and one would like to see a situation brought about whereby creative artists would simply, through the practice of their profession, be able to provide for themselves and their dependants. That is a question to which we are actively addressing our minds at present. If the Deputy wishes to come and talk to me about it I would be interested to discuss the possibilities and problems with him.

Vote put and agreed to.