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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 Nov 1980

Vol. 324 No. 6

Supplementary Estimates, 1980. - Vote 39: Agriculture.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £39,783,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1980, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain subsidies and sundry grants-in-aid.

The main Estimate for Agriculture for 1980 amounted to £140,041,000 which with this Supplementary Estimate brings the total net provision for the year to £179,824,000.

1980 has been a difficult year for farmers, the problems on the economic and marketing side being aggravated by unfavourable weather conditions especially during the summer and autumn. The Government have been very conscious of the adverse situation in the agricultural industry and the severe pressure on farmers' incomes. The Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance and I have had several discussions during the year with the main farming organisations, and in recent months the Government have taken a number of measures to help farmers to overcome their difficulties and to ensure the highest possible level of agricultural production. These measures account for the bulk of the present Supplementary Estimate.

The biggest increase — £23 million — is in respect of the farm modernisation scheme at Subhead M1. A sum of £36.5 million was provided in the original Estimate in respect of grants to farmers under the farm modernisation scheme including the western drainage scheme. This sum has proved to be inadequate because of the unprecedented number of claims being received for payment. Notwithstanding the difficult situation in agriculture, farmers continue to show a high level of confidence in the future of their industry by investing at an unprecedented rate in land improvement, buildings and so on. As a result a further sum of £23 million is required to cover payments under these schemes for the remainder of the year, that is £8 million in addition to the £15 million increase announced in September. This will bring the total to £59.5 million by the end of this year, or 70 per cent more than the £34.5 million paid last year.

The encouraging level of investment in farm development is an indication that despite their difficulties farmers have confidence in the long-term prospects for agriculture. Higher productivity is vital to agricultural prosperity and this can be achieved through judicious capital investment. Our agriculture was badly under-capitalised before we joined the European Community, and it was clear that considerable investment would be required if we were to exploit the opportunities which membership of the Community offered. Much has been done since and many of our farms are now highly developed. But there is still scope for further improvement, particularly by way of land improvement. Here, of course, the investment aids under the farm modernisation scheme and the western drainage scheme are of the utmost benefit and by providing as much as £23 million extra in this Supplementary Estimate the Government are showing in a positive way how they are prepared to assist and encourage farmers to make worthwhile investment that will lead to an expansion of production.

Another important element in the package of measures announced in September was the substantial increase in livestock headage grants payable to farmers in the disadvantaged areas. An additional £8.432 million is now being sought under Subhead M.3 to finance the increased grants. In the case of cattle and beef cows, the higher rates payable have been increased from £17 last year to £32 this year, while the lower rates have been increased from £13 to £28. In the case of sheep, the various rates have been increased by £1 and now stand at £5 per head for mountain hoggets, £4.50 for other hoggets and £4 for mountain lambs. These very substantial increases have been made possible largely as a result of the raising of the level of FEOGA reimbursement from 35 per cent to 50 per cent, which I successfully negotiated in the EEC prices package earlier in the year. In the case of suckler herds, farmers will also qualify for an EEC premium of £13.18 which will be paid early next year on each suckler cow of a specified meat producing breed and also for an additional national premium of £12 on each cow over and above the number present in the herd at the 1979-80 round test for tuberculosis. One result of these increases will be to bring to as much as £57.18 the grant for each additional cow that also qualifies for headage payments in the disadvantaged areas. I hope that the attractive incentives now available will help to reverse the downward trend and boost the size of the beef suckler herd.

During the year the sheep industry encountered some uncertainty because of the delay in introducing the common organisation of the market for sheepmeat and also because of some curtailment of our exports to France. In order to help producers I announced in June the reintroduction from 1 September of grants under the mountain lamb extension scheme in respect of exports of mountain wether lambs. The rate then announced was £1.50 per head but in view of the difficulties affecting hill sheep producers the Government decided in September to double the grant to £3 per lamb. I am glad to say that this measure has been very successful, and substantial numbers of lambs have come from the mountains either for fattening on the lowlands or for export, mainly to Italy. The additional expenditure for this scheme and for the lowland hogget ewe subsidy scheme is provided for under subhead D.5.

As Deputies are aware, agreement was recently reached, after many years of negotiations, on a common organisation of the market for sheepmeat. Community arrangements will take the place of national measures for the support of the sheep industry. Sheep producers can now look forward with greater confidence to the future, and I am confident that they will meet the challenge and opportunities of a Community-wide market and expand production of quality lambs.

A new provision of £600,000 is being included under Subhead D10 for winter fodder schemes. Because of the severe effect of bad weather on the hay crop this year special schemes were introduced in August to encourage the production of additional winter fodder. These schemes provided for, firstly, a subsidy of £20 per tonne of calcium ammonium nitrate or equivalent high nitrogen fertiliser purchased and used between 13 August and 6 September and, secondly, a subsidy of £3 per tonne of silage made on farms which had not made silage before, up to a maximum of 50 tonnes per farm.

I expect that some 17,000 farmers altogether will benefit from these schemes. The success of the schemes is most encouraging, and I am particularly glad that many producers who did not previously make silage have come to realise the advantages of silage as winter fodder. Increased production of silage will put producers in a better position to carry more stock over the winter months, and so help to counteract the traditional heavy disposals of cattle in the autumn, which can only weaken prices at that time.

As a food producing and exporting country we must be prepared to concentrate more attention on the promotion of a high quality image for Irish food. Mainly because of lack of funds we lag considerably behind our competitors in this field. Admittedly Coéras Traéctaéla and the various agricultural marketing agencies do a certain amount of promotional work but even their efforts are limited and there is, I feel, a void in adequately promoting Ireland as a food exporter on a general level. In an effort to make a start in tackling this problem I decided in June last that £75,000 would be made available for suitable projects recommended by the Agricultural Exports Co-Ordinating Group for the promotion of agricultural exports generally. This sum is accordingly being provided under subhead E3. It will be matched by an equal contribution from the export agencies represented on the group. The money will be used for promotional work additional to, and of a more general nature, than that carried out by the agencies for their individual products. I fully realise that the amount is small for the job I have in mind but at least it is a start. Already the group have carried out surveys on attitudes of people in France and Germany to Irish food products and they have followed up these studies with general advertising campaigns for Irish food in the countries mentioned as well as some specific store promotions.

A further element in the September package of measures to assist farmers was the allocation of an Exchequer contribution to maintain the charges to herdowners for the treatment of their cattle for warbles at last year's levels. Subhead C4 includes a provision of £440,000 to meet the cost of this measure in 1980. Apart altogether from animal welfare considerations, the eradication of the warble fly will enhance the health status of our national herd and will add considerably to the value of livestock output by improving milk yields, by improving the quality and size of beef-cattle, and by eliminating warble-damaged hides. Despite a late start to this season's campaign the number of animals dressed to date has been satisfactory compared with previous years. I would again urge all herdowners to co-operate fully with the A1 centres which are responsible for the dressing and certification of animals under the scheme.

A feature of this year's Warble Fly Eradication Scheme is the exemption of herdowners in County Donegal from the requirement of having to treat their cattle. This exemption covers over 200,000 animals and it is envisaged that, in the event of eradication schemes in future years, similar relief could be extended to herdowners in other areas which, like Donegal, achieve a consistently low incidence of warble infestation.

Under subhead A.1 provision is made for a further £1.4 million to meet the cost of pay increases under the 1980 national understanding, as well as other miscellaneous increases in pay and allowances. The increases under subheads B4, 11, and J amounting to over £1.75 million are also due mainly to the implementation of pay increases, including the national understanding, by An Foras Taluéntais, Coéras Beostoic agus Feola and Bord na gCapall. An additional £975,000 is being sought under subhead A.3 to meet the cost of increases in travelling and subsistence rates which were sanctioned during the year, and to provide for increased inspection activity, particularly on the farm modernisation scheme.

The excess of £467,000 on subhead B.7 is due principally to the cost of salaries of officers of my Department who transferred to ACOT on 1 July and to the cost of the new national understanding for staff generally in that organisation. There are a number of savings on several subheads as well as a deficiency in Appropriations-in-Aid because of the transfer of staff and functions to ACOT on 1 July. These arise only because the transfer had to be made during the course of the year. In future years, finance for ACOT will be provided in a single subhead.

Under subhead C2 a sum of £8,397,000 was provided in the main Estimate for bovine tuberculosis eradication measures. This sum was almost £1.4 million more than was provided in 1979 but it is now necessary to seek an additional £2,363,000 to meet the overall cost of these measures in 1980. The increased expenditure is attributable in the main to three factors: firstly, higher fees for TB testing payable to veterinary practitioners, arising from acceptance of an independent assessment of fee structures; secondly, an increase in travelling and subsistence expenses of Department staff engaged in the operation of the eradication scheme; and thirdly, the disclosure of a higher number of reactors than was anticipated.

Progress is being made with TB eradication but there is still some way to go. Although the incidence figures from the current round of testing which started in June show an improvement on the last round, it is disquieting to find that more than one in every 40 herds is still turning up reactors. On top of that we have a few thousand more herds locked up from earlier rounds and from pre-movement tests and lesions discovered at factories. The southern dairying counties where TB incidence was always highest are now showing a marked improvement. On the other hand, the position is deteriorating in some midland counties. My Department are watching these trends carefully and will do everything possible to identify the cause of these outbreaks. In the last analysis, however, it is the farmer who owns the cattle who can do most to see to it that once his herd is clear it remains so.

The excess arising on bovine TB is offset by a saving of £1,350,000 in expenditure on brucellosis under subhead C3 and a saving of £999,990 under subhead C5 because the balance in the hardship fund is adequate to meet likely commitments for the rest of the year. The reduction on brucellosis arises mainly because the number of brucellosis reactors for which grants are payable on slaughter has been less than anticipated. This in itself is a good indication of the progress we are making in reducing the level of the disease in our herds. I am confident that, with continued herd-owner co-operation, we will move rapidly towards our goal of total eradication of brucellosis within the next five or six years.

I can report success also in the case of leukosis. This disease has for all practical purposes now been eliminated from the national herd. Because it is a very slow-acting disease, those herds which were infected had to be kept under restrictions for up to two years. This led to overstocking problems which had to be relieved by slaughter of some of the stock and the payment of compensation for the animals slaughtered. The amount of compensation paid this year is of the order of £110,000 and this is provided for in subhead C4. Restrictions have now been lifted on most of the herds concerned and any further compensation payments will, therefore, be limited. This disease came to us in stock imported from Canada. We were fortunate to get to grips with it before it could spread through our own herd and to have had the utmost co-operation from the herdowners concerned in dealing with it. It provides a timely reminder, however, of the need for perpetual vigilance to guard against the introduction of those exotic animal diseases which are endemic in many other countries.

The additional amount of £1.45 million required for subsidies on milk and butter under subhead E1 is made up of £650,000 for liquid milk subsidy and £800,000 for butter subsidy. The excess in the milk subsidy element is due to an increase in the level of consumption this year and to some carry-over of claims from last year as a result of the postal strike. The excess on the butter subsidy element arises from an increase of some 7 per cent in the level of butter consumption this year.

In the beef sector the year has been characterised by very high disposals of cattle. It is estimated that slaughterings at export premises will total some 1.4 million head as compared with 1.17 million head in 1979. As a result sales of beef to intervention have been much greater than was anticipated, and it is now expected that total intake will reach 112,000 tonnes by the end of the year. This high level of intake together with heavy interest charges on borrowings for the purchase of intervention beef are the main reasons for the additional amount of £11.3 million being sought under subhead M6. There will, however, be increased receipts of £8 million from the EEC under subhead N19, and so the net increase on intervention is $3.3 million

While I have criticised over-reliance on the intervention system, I recognise that intervention provides a valuable support for the market especially at this time of the year. Because of this I was particularly disturbed at a recent decision of the EEC Commission to suspend intervention for beef forequarters until March next. In view of the consequences which this might otherwise have for our beef sector, I decided to suspend for the same period our national arrangement which restricted intervention intake to 50 per cent of eligible slaughterings. At the end of last week the Commission decided to extend the type of beef hindquarter eligible for intervention to include eight-rib pistola hindquarters. I had sought this extension at the meeting of the Council of Ministers earlier in the week, and the Commission's quick response is welcome and will give increased marketing flexibility to our exporters.

The sum of £1 million sought under subhead M9 is in respect of payment of the special variable premium on exports of beef to the United Kingdom and will bring total expenditure to £2.5 million in 1980. However, this expenditure is balanced by a corresponding increase in receipts from the UK Government as shown under subhead N20.

The balance of the Supplementary Estimate consists of extra provisions for a number of miscellaneous items, including expenses of various advisory councils and committees, residual payments under discontinued schemes, interest on loans by the ACC, pensions to former employees of the Dairy Disposals Company, extra cost of fertiliser aid under an FAO scheme, and consultancy fees.

There is a substantial increase of £9½ million under Appropriations-in-Aid. This is mainly attributable to the increased recoupments from the EEC for intervention and from the UK Government for the variable beef premium, which I have already mentioned, as well as increased recoupments from the EEC under the disadvantaged areas schemes.

The gross total of this Supplementary Estimate is just under £54 million and the net total is some £39¾ million. These are very substantial sums and they will impose a strain on the Exchequer. However, despite the severe financial constraints at the present time, the Government have decided that these funds should be made available to help the agricultural industry to meet its current difficulties. The Government are fully conscious of these difficulties, and we have already shown by the measures taken during the past few months that we are prepared to help farmers to maintain their incomes and to expand production.

We are, of course, keeping the agricultural situation under continuing review and there are continuing discussions with representatives of the farming organisations. At Community level we shall be seeking substantial price increases in the coming months. On the domestic scene, too, we shall continue to do what we can to help within the limits imposed on us by the availability of resources. In the meantime this Supplementary Estimate will provide the funds for the very substantial and comprehensive measures which we have already taken to meet the agricultural situation.

There has been a 50 per cent drop in the real incomes of the farming community in the last two years, and this Estimate, the thinking and the policies that lie behind it, are a totally inadequate response to the crisis now facing farmers and their families. I know many farmers who simply do not have enough money to pay the grocery bills, and if the Government and the Minister think that Estimates of this nature, packages of the type they have announced so far, are an adequate response to the situation they are fooling themselves, and worse still they are attempting to fool the Irish people. Indeed, the attempt by the Minister for Agriculture in his Mulrany speech last weekend to defend the adequacy of the measures already adopted to ease the agricultural crisis suggests that he is satisfied with these measures. No one else in the country is, certainly not the farmers.

Read the full speech.

The crisis in agriculture is so profound that the Government's tactics of small concessions for party political rather than agricultural purposes is highly damaging. It is diverting the energies of the farming community into piecemeal political lobbying and away from positive remedial action. If the Minister has some long-term answers to offer to the Irish farmers he should come out with them now and stop fooling around with press releases and measures of a largely public relations character. The famous package for farmers which was announced by the Minister on 12 September last was purely a public relations sham and that can be demonstrated by going through the individual measures, grandly entitled "ten individual measures to assist Irish agriculture". I will go through these measures quickly to show how misleading that description is.

First of all we had a measure about the restructuring of existing borrowing. The Government had got the banks to adopt a positive constructive attitude, so called, to the restructuring of existing loans. The first point to be made about that is that it did not cost the Government a penny. Secondly, it was not anything new because long before the package was announced the banks had said that they were intent on adopting a constructive attitude to the restructuring of loans, as of course any prudent financier would, because there is not any point in putting a man out of business because then he could not pay any of his debts. To entitle that as part of a package of aid for farmers was grossly misleading.

Then we had a Euro-loan floated of £50 million for the farming community We were told that the Government very generously were to bear the exchange risk arising from the fact that this money was to come in from outside. But we were not told that the Government were adding 2 per cent to the rate of interest being charged to farmers, which the Government were to put into their pocket to be used as a form of assurance against the Government having to provide money in their guarantee of the exchange rate. Even if there is not a devaluation it is probable the Government will make a profit anyway. The money is being obtained in Germany at 9 per cent and the Irish farmer is being asked to pay 13½ per cent. Of that, 2½ per cent will go to the banks and credit institutions to cover their costs, and 2 per cent to the Government against the possibility that they might have to come up with money to guarantee against the devaluation of the puént. There is not anything there for the Irish farming community, and they can see it.

Of that £50 million, I understand that not more than £20 million has been taken up by the farming community and that £30 million of it is being lent by the ACC on the Irish money market among the community in general and will not go to the farmers at all. Anyway, that scheme is completely inadequate because it is to cover five years at a time when farmers had been looking for long-term loans, not loans they had to repay in five years. It is far less attractive than even existing loans available from the ACC on longer terms.

Then we had the proposals in regard to the payment of rates. We were told that the Government were arranging with local authorities to adopt an understanding attitude towards individual farmers. What scope had local authorities to adopt an understanding attitude towards anyone when their finances were so tight that they were having to lay off road workers throughout the country. Never before have local authorities been in such a difficult financial situation, yet the Government, without giving them an additional penny to do so, told them they must adopt an understanding attitude towards farmers' rates. This measure did not cost the Government a penny.

Then we had the Government coming along saying they would relieve farmers in the £40 to £60 PLV bracket of the second moiety or give them the primary allowance on the second moiety of rates. This was described as a concession. What the Government were doing was giving back half of what they had taken from the farmers in the budget of 1980. The Government were giving them back only half of what they had taken in the 1980 budget.

All of it.

Clearly this measure was a matter of trying to put right what the Government had done wrong in the 1980 Budget. Then we had the announcement that they would pay the grants they owed to farmers under the Farm Modernisation Scheme. This was supposed to be a gift, a concession, a great example of Government largesse. The Government had a legal obligation to pay these grants. They were obliged in contract and could have been sued if they did not pay. To come along and to say they were giving a big concession, that they were going to pay what they owed, was not a concession.

This was something that should not have been put into a package of aid because it was creating the impression, as this entire package was creating the impression, that the farmers were getting something from the Government. This was being put across the urban community so that the people in the towns would think farmers were getting something, whereas this was only paying them money already owed to them by the Government and of which they had been refused payment up to three and four months. There are still farmers in my constituency who are waiting that long for payment, although there may not be so many farmers in Donegal.

There should not be any.

I can tell the Minister that there are and I have written to him within the last two weeks telling him about them.

Then we had the increased headage payments in the disadvantaged areas. I concede that was an improvement. The item was the beef suckler scheme. What the Government were doing in this so-called concession was telling the farming community that, although they were free under EEC law to pay a maximum grant of £28 to farmers who increased their herd numbers by buying more breeding animals, they were not going to do it. They said they would pay only the additional £12 on the additional numbers, not the entire herd. Although other EEC countries are paying the full £28 the Irish Government will only pay on increased numbers, not existing numbers.

In practice I am sure everyone is aware that there are few farmers who have confidence enough to start expanding their herds because the situation in agriculture is so difficult and this additional £12 probably will not be paid in many cases. The inadequacy of this £12 could not be more graphically indicated than by the fact that a similar amount was offered in 1968 under the beef incentive scheme by the then Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Paddy Smith. In 1980 the present Minister for Agriculture is offering farmers the same amount. We all know what has happened to prices and the cost of living since 1968. Never before have we faced such a serious situation in the declining size of our beef cow herd. Our potential for exports of beef within the next two or three years is being rapidly eroded because our beef cow herd is reducing in size. All the present Minister can offer them is £12 provided by the EEC which is no more in cash terms than Mr. Paddy Smith offered out of Irish Government funds in 1968, when money was worth a lot more and the situation was far less serious. As I said, the £12 will only be provided for increased numbers. Why would the Minister not pay the additional £12 for all beef cows? That question should be answered.

If the Government can find £50 or £60 million for an increase in pay for the nursing profession — I do not deny the need for an increase in their pay — why can he not find the money for an increase in our beef cow herd at a time when we are literally facing disaster so far as beef exports are concerned? That question too should be answered. He says he is too poor and could not get the money. If that is the extent of his influence in Government, it is not very great in the face of the current crises facing our farmers.

Next we were told the Government were going to introduce intervention buying for heifers. That was a total flop because they discovered they had to get EEC consent and the EEC had not given their consent. That leg of the Government's stool has disappeared completely. Then we had an improvement in the mountain lamb extension scheme. I grant the Minister that was a good thing. The Government then said they were going to keep the cost of warble dressings at last year's level. This was included as one of the big items in a package of aid for farmers in the current crisis. If that is a measure of the Government's seriousness in approaching this problem and solving the agricultural income crisis, it shows very clearly the total air of unreality that must obtain in Agriculture House under the inspiration of the present Minister.

We have a grant-in-aid for farm relief services to Macra na Feirme, which is a good thing. But, in common with the warble fly increase, in normal circumstances it would not be included in a package of aid to farmers. It would be announced in a routine manner, without very much fanfare, as a normal concession and part of an on-going dialogue which the farming organisations were having with the Government. However, this Government were so anxious to create a false public impression they were doing something about the agricultural crisis that these measures, most of which were routine, were included in a ten point package of aid for the agricultural community. These measures were designed purely to create a temporary public relations impression without any real value, substance or recognition of the magnitude of the decline in agricultural incomes.

We must remember that this is the Government which, in the budget of 1980, admitted that farmers' incomes were falling by 4 per cent in 1979, then proceeded to extend income tax to a new category of farmers, to dramatically increase rates for smaller farmers, to restrict capital allowances and to bring forward the date of payment of farmers' income tax. That is the kind of mentality which lies behind this latest package, which is so grotesquely inadequate.

The crisis in Irish agriculture is so profound that I do not think the Government realise it. I believe we will face a very serious balance of payments problem unless something is done about agriculture. It is worth recalling that agriculture provides 40 per cent of our total exports. There is no country in Europe which relies on agriculture to anything approaching the extent we do. Agriculture represents an even higher proportion of our net exports. If the current crisis in agriculture — a 50 per cent decline in real incomes of farmers, their consequent inability to provide funds from their own resources for investment in increased production, and the necessity, which is obvious at present, to slaughter animals that should be retained for further breeding simply to get income — continues, we face the prospect of a very serious balance of payments crisis in the next 18 months. I say those words with full consciousness of what they mean.

I also believe that, if the present decline in agriculture continues, this country faces the prospect of the International Monetary Fund coming in to manage our economy and of our Goverenment's sovereignty in economic and social policy being taken from us because of the collapse of exports in agriculture. It is important that, regardless of where people live, they realise that if it were not for agricultural exports we would not have the foreign exchange that is necessary to buy the imported goods that so many of our people enjoy, that we would not have the foreign exchange that so many of the industrialists who have set up here and who give so much employment need to buy machinery. If the current crisis in agriculture continues, all of our people — those in the cities as well as those in rural areas — face the prospect of economic disaster and of the loss of our economic sovereignty as a result of the IMF having to be brought in to manage our economy. The sooner people realise that the better. They must realise also that the type of measures we have been talking about so far are grossly inadequate.

I should like to indicate the extent to which farmers have lost out vis-a-vis the rest of the community. It has been calculated by Dr. Seamus Sheehy that to restore farmers to the relative income position they enjoyed vis-vis the PAYE sector in 1970, and that was not a particularly good year for farmers, would require a cash transfer of £300 million from the rest of the community to the farmers. Lest anyone should think that this is an enormous sum I would point out that it represents only 10 per cent of the total Government budget: the Government spend £3,000 million. The Government must realise that if the incomes of a sector of the community which contributes almost half of our total exports and which, consequently, is of vital importance to our national survival, continue to decline at the present rate, we face a grave balance-of-payments situation. Consequently, they must think in terms of injections of cash of the magnitude I have mentioned into Irish agriculture. That alone will restore confidence and will restore the ability of agriculture to continue to provide us as a community with the exports we need if we are to survive.

In relation to some of the provisions of this Supplementary Estimate it is worth pointing out that of the money which is being provided and which will appear in the Government's accounts as aid to agriculture and which indeed is likely to be portrayed in various political statements as actual assistance to the farmers, somewhere between £5 million and £6 million is for increased salaries for civil servants and various public officials. The extra money will not reach the farming community in any form. Under subheads A1 and A2 there is provision for £2,500,000 for additional salaries to people in the Department of Agriculture and, as the Minister has said, subheads B4 and J as well as the provision for CBF relate also to substantial increases in salaries.

I am not saying that there is not a need for increased salaries but any attempt to pretend that the money being voted here is for the farming community as such would be dishonest when that money is really required for these increases in salaries.

Another important item relates to the increased provision for disease eradication. One might be inclined to regard this as being very worth while in terms of the farmers being given more money for the fight against disease in their herds but let us consider where the increased money is going. To be fair to the Minister, he was honest enough to tell us that the increases in this area are due to three factors — to higher fees in respect of TB testing which will be payable, not to farmers, but to veterinary practitioners as well as to an increase in travelling and subsistence expenses for Departmental staff engaged in the operation of the scheme.

It is worth while drawing attention also to the fact that this Supplementary Estimate discloses that there have been substantial reductions in the amount provided under many subheads compared with the amounts provided in the original Estimate. There have been substantial reductions in respect of many provisions, particularly for agricultural education. Money that was voted by this House for this purpose was not spent by the Minister. As Dr. Tom Walsh of ACOT emphasised recently, unless there is an improved level of agricultural education for farmers, the various schemes will not be of any significance and will not lead to increased production. Yet, in this Supplementary Estimate we find that the Government have failed to spend the £740,000 that was sanctioned for Department of Agriculture schools. We find that the £857,000 which was voted for private agricultural schools has not been spent, that the £184,000 voted for vocational training for farmers has not been spent and that the £132,000 provided for scholarships and training for farmers has not been spent either. That is a total of nearly £2 million which the Government have failed to spend.

The Deputy should elaborate on that.

The figures are self-evident. We all realise how much must be done if we are to improve agricultural education facilities. We realise how difficult it is for any Minister to obtain an additional provision in his Estimate for any subhead, particularly, perhaps, one concerning education. Therefore, we may take it that it was very difficult for the Minister to have the extra moneys under this head sanctioned for this year but despite all this he admits now that he was unable to spend the money that was voted. Surely that indicates serious failure in the Department.

Another important point that must be made concerns the need to make a very strong case to the EEC as well as to the Government for additional money. I have pointed out already the case that is to be made for an injection of £300 million into the farming sector in order merely to restore the position that they enjoyed vis-aé-vis other sectors in 1970. But there is a case to be made also under that same heading to the EEC for additional moneys. Possibly it is not realised the extent to which the EEC have a legal responsibility for the situation now obtaining in Irish agriculture. They have taken on the primary responsibility for agricultural policy in member states and they have laws that preclude member states from taking certain actions in aid of their farmers. If they will not allow those states to act in certain matters, then they have a clear obligation to act on them.

Article 39 of the Treaty of Rome imposes on the EEC themselves — not on member states — the "clear obligation to ensure a fair standard of living for the agricultural community". There is no doubt that a fair standard of living for the agricultural community is not being obtained now in this country. The EEC have a clear responsibility to do something about that under the terms of the solemn treaty obligations contained in article 39.

Furthermore there is in the Treaty of Rome authority vested in the Community to act in the situation that obtains in agriculture at the present time. Article 42 of the treaty states that "the council may grant aid for the protection of enterprises handicapped by structural or natural conditions". We know that at the root of our present difficulties is the fact that we have a higher rate of inflation than almost any other member state. The inherent vulnerability of Irish agriculture to inflation qualifies Ireland for immediate aid under the structural provision of article 42.

In my view remoteness from markets qualifies us for aid on the grounds of structural or natural conditions because the distance from where people consume the goods is a natural disadvantage of even greater magnitude than climate. The factors of inflation, remoteness from the market and the dramatic decline in agricultural incomes of 50 per cent in the past two years indicate clearly that our Government in addition to providing a substantial amount of money — in my view justly requested from the Irish taxpayer to help the farming community — should go to the EEC and ask them to fulfil their obligations to Irish farmers and Irish agriculture under the Treaty of Rome. We need a Minister who will present that case forcefully to the Community, pointing out the clear obligations of the Community under the Treaty to assist Irish farmers in the present situation.

However, this Government are the least fitted and have the least chance of obtaining EEC aid for Irish agriculture. This is so because it is this Government who are primarily responsible for the inflation which is the fundamental cause of the present problems of the farmers. This Government cannot convincingly plead for EEC aid to undo the damage that their own inflationary policies have created, stemming originally from the 1977 manifesto. On the other hand an alternative Government, a Fine Gael Government, with new policies, with a proven record of fiscal responsibility when in office and a broad base of support would be able to present a far more convincing case to the EEC for funds under the treaty obligations of the Community.

In this context perhaps one of the most appropriate ways the Community can help Irish agriculture and one that can be strongly argued under the provisions of the treaty is by allowing a devaluation of the Irish Green £, notwithstanding the continued maintenance of parity for the Irish £ itself. This proposal was made to the Minister by the ICMSA in September 1980 but, to the best of my knowledge, he has not indicated whether he is for or against such a proposition. As far as I know, he has not even presented it formally to the Community for consideration. Yet it is one immediate way in which the Community could help Irish farmers. I under the clear treaty obligations which the Community have to Irish farmers. I have said that this Government, because they have created the conditions which make this necessary, are not the best Government to present this case but in the interests of Irish agriculture it must be presented no matter who is in government. At the moment there is no evidence that this Government are prepared to present it.

It is worth recollecting that this type of provision is not without precedent because in the period prior to our entry into the EMS the British had a different Green £ rate to our even though the British £ and the Irish £ were at par. We had a Green £ rate more or less appropriate to the relative level of our £ vis-aé-vis the currencies of the European Community whereas the British had an artificial Green £ rate. It bore no relation to its currency in relation to EEC currencies but was designed solely for the British purpose of keeping down the price of food in Britain — the traditional British policy. If Britain could maintain a different Green £ rate to our Green £ rate at a time when our two currencies were the same solely for the purpose of maintaining their cheap food policy, surely in present agricultural positions we can argue for a different Green £ rate in the light of the most serious situation that obtains here so far as our essential interest is concerned, namely, agriculture.

The Chair has allowed a considerable degree of latitude on this debate but strictly it should be confined to the headings in the Supplementary Estimate. I ask speakers to keep closer to those headings.

I appreciate the point the Chair has made. In his speech the Minister for Agriculture said something which I think probably shows better than anything else the extent to which he and his colleagues are out of touch with what is happening in farming. He said:

...farmers continue to show a high level of confidence in the future of their industry by investing at an unprecedented rate in land improvements, buildings...

This was evidenced for him by the fact that there was an increased demand for grants under the farm modernisation scheme. If the Minister thinks that indicates a high level of confidence by farmers he is fooling himself. The reality is that farmers, because of the difficult cash situation they are facing, completed work that had not been finished for some time and claimed the money. There has been a rush of claims for money that was previously allocated. The second reason was that the provision under the farm modernisation scheme in the 1980 Estimates was grossly inadequate and it was inevitable that farmers would look for more money. It was inevitable that the £36 million provided in the 1980 Estimates would not be enough and that could have been seen by anyone at that time.

That could have been seen by anyone and was pointed out by me at that time. I said then that the £36,500,000 provided for the farm modernisation scheme was completely inadequate and this has been shown to be the case. It was inadequate because, even if there was no increase in the volume of claims relative to what had obtained the previous year, that £36,500,000 represented an increase of 6 per cent only on the amount provided in the previous year. Everybody knows that the cost of farm buildings, drainage, contractors, wages, all of these things being met out of grants under the farm modernisation scheme were at that time increasing somewhere in the region of 15 to 20 or 25 per cent, depending on the type of service and so on. The Government came along then and provided an additional sum to meet those costs of no more than 6 per cent. It was patently obvious that that 6 per cent was not going to be enough. The fact that the Government have to come in now looking for a Supplementary Estimate was a totally predictable event arising from the inadequacy of their original provision for the farm modernisation scheme. The fact that the Government made a wrong estimation at the beginning of 1980 in no way indicates an unpredecented upsurge in confidence among farmers. All it indicates is that the Government made a mistake at the beginning of 1980 in their figures and they are now having to correct that mistake. Furthermore farmers are making claims for money to which they were already entitled but had not made claims because they had not completed the work and were not in urgent need of the money as they are now.

I believe we are facing a really serious situation in agriculture. I do not believe the present Government recognise how serious is the situation. I hope this debate will provide an opportunity for Members on this side of the House to get the message across to people on the other side that, unless something is done urgently, we as a community face a crisis of an unprecedented proportion in our balance of payments and in economic developments generally.

At present a real crisis has arisen in the agricultural industry. That goes without saying and I think is appreciated by everybody. The mickey mouse efforts being made to resolve it by the present administration certainly indicate that they know it exists but that they are not going to do much about it.

There is a concession in regard to rates for people with valuations between £60 and £70. But I would point out that in the last budget the Government removed the subsidy on rates resulting in those people's rates being increased by a substantial amount, half of which they have paid for this year. Now the Government are saying they will let them away with the second moiety. Indeed the concession in regard to rates was a very minor one when one bears in mind the increase in this area provided for in the budget, an increase which withdrew a subsidy on those rates. Now the Government come along and make a great virtue of giving the farmers back half.

This is peculiar Government thinking At budget time they withdrew the subsidy on these rates and now they are coming back and saying that farmers have not to pay the second moiety. This is indicative of the kind of Government thinking and planning affecting the whole area of agriculture, our principal industry. Agriculture, with its off-shoot industries and jobs, employs at least 40 per cent of our people. Are we serious when we are only mickey-mousing with this industry? There is no plan for agriculture, something which has been pointed out in report after report. That is indicative of the overall thinking of the Government and Department in the whole area of agriculture.

Last evening a meeting was held of pea growers in Carlow. They maintained that the processing of peas in that area must be continued and if anybody in the Government would say to them "Here is a factory", they would take it over and run it. Yet the Government are silent on the closure of this vital industry to farmers and workers in that area. They will just close it down and that is that.

I was a member of a deputation recently to a Minister of State about the position of millable wheat and the action of millers. Apparently the Government had no control over these matters. The Department were powerless to do anything in the situation, one which I, as a member of a deputation from the committee of agriculture in Kildare, pointed out existed. The Minister had to admit that the millers were in control and that the Government had no power in regard to the standards to be adhered to. The millers changed the standard for millable wheat on the day it began to arrive at the mills and the Government were powerless to stop them. Who is in charge? I pose this question in all seriousness. Are we able to deal with those people?

We also discussed with that junior Minister on that occasion the position of animal feed and of imports arriving here via the EEC but not produced in the EEC, which are being put into our animal feeding to the exclusion of our barley. This means that the bottom falls out of the market for Irish barley. This is a fact. The Minister knows it, but apparently is powerless to do anything about it.

Have we really any control over these areas of cereal production in this country? Have we any control over the use of our barley in our animal feed? Apparently we have not. It is about time we did something about it, that we stopped these cheap imports of tapioca or whatever going into our animal feeding in a huge way to the exclusion of our barley. There is not even a minimum amount of Irish barley being put into animal feeding being processed by the compounders. There is no regulation whatever specifying that home produce must be used.

I make these points because agriculture is our principal industry. Despite what people may say about oil finds and so on, our soil is our principal natural resource. It is not being used, we have no plan to use it and a lot of it is not being properly used for one of many reasons but principally for the want of any kind of plan by the Department of Agriculture on the proper use of this land for our people.

Our processing industry is falling to pieces. The Minister is well aware of that. I want to say a word now about the marketing of our agricultural produce. The Minister mentioned this matter. I am glad that at least he recognises the necessity for proper marketing of our agricultural produce. I want to point out to the Minister, as I have done to three or four of his colleagues before, that our meat in Europe is not commanding as good a price as European meats. The Minister is aware of that. But Ministers do not like to hear that or to admit it. Nevertheless, it is a fact. We are commanding a lower price for our meat in Europe. We boast about our great Irish beef, but when it comes to selling it on the European market we receive a very much lower price than our European competitors. I believe that is because of lack of proper marketing.

I have been in Europe and studied the question to a limited extent. No attempt has been made by our meat producers, exporters or principally by the Department of Agriculture to set up the necessary marketing process for our beef. We have adopted the practice of putting it into intervention, where we get a price which is not attractive to the meat processing industry. That happens because we allow ourselves to be put into that position through not marketing our beef and producing it as it should be produced. We are just producing raw sides of beef which are put into intervention because nobody seems to bother to process it properly and sell it on a competitive basis. European farmers are selling their beef at prices one and a quarter times or more better than ours. It is time for the Government, meat processors and farmers to get together and work out a plan for selling our beef in Europe. We could then produce the kind of beef these people want so that we could get the top prices, which are necessary if our farmers are to survive.

It is now apparent to farmers that a few years back — not so many — they were bluffed about what the EEC would do for them. It did bring a good deal of wealth to this country for a few years, I am not now going to examine that campaign again but my party said at the time that prosperity would be short-lived. The amount we shall get now from the EEC is limited and we can no longer expect an annual round of increases — we will not get them, as has become apparent. It is also apparent that there will be changes in CAP and despite all our efforts we will not be able to maintain it as it has been. It therefore behoves us to market our produce properly.

I want to pay tribute to Bord Bainne, who market a section of our agricultural produce. They have done a fine job in regard to our dairy produce. Practically none of our milk products has gone into intervention. But the position regarding meat is a disgrace. We are receiving a lesser price than our European competitors. We are putting most of our beef into intervention, whereas if we had a proper marketing system I believe we could sell our beef against all competitors at top prices in the European market. The Government have failed to give a lead in this matter.

Proper marketing of processed food and vegetables is also vitally necessary. If we do not now grasp the nettle of marketing our produce properly we can forget about expansion. This is one of the reasons why our vegetable processing plants are closing down. As a people, as a Government and as a Daéil we must stand condemned on the ground that we have the best soil in Europe, a good climate for vegetable production but have to close down the vegetable processing industry with resulting loss of employment, loss to producers and so on in my own area serving the Carlow plant. We must stand condemned when the potato processing plant in Tuam has to close. We are not serious about exporting and marketing products of which we can produce the finest in the world. The Minister and the Government stand condemned on this issue, because in the Fianna Fail manifesto we had the bald statement: "we will process all our food". I was delighted to see that.

That is forgotton now.

It should not be forgotten, because it was a good ideal to strive for. The effort does not fit the intention, because even the Minister will have to admit that in the past three and a half years the bottom has fallen out of the processing industry. Part of the blame must be taken by the Minister and his Department. As far as I can see as an ordinary observer, little or no effort has been made to improve standards and to advance the processing of food. The evidence is to the contrary. Anyone who considers the matter fairly will agree that this is so.

Yesterday we had a march organised by young farmers. I think this is only the beginning because no trade union or professional man would accept a cut of 20 per cent in income in one year. The measures announced by the Government to help farmers are inadequate, useless. Part of the reason for the present high unemployment figures, which are frightening, is the lack of money in the agricultural sector. This also creates depression in the agricultural service industries. The loss of the processing plant in Carlow will mean a loss in the machinery area of that factory and in machinery usage by local people and general loss of employment. It will mean loss to hauliers bringing the produce to the factory. The loss of the Carlow business goes right through the community.

I do not wish to blackguard anybody or blame the Government unnecessarily but it is the Government's task to ensure that we make the most of our principal natural resources and principal industry. They must ensure that everything possible is done to see that food production, our best resource and principal industry, is encouraged and promoted. Cheddar cheese from England commands a price 12 per cent higher than the same type of Irish cheese. We should consider why. It is time that, in consultation with our processors, we combatted that situation so as to get the best possible price for Irish products. This has not been done. The problem has not been seriously tackled. It is the task of an imaginative Minister and an active Department of Agriculture. I have pointed out two areas where the prices we get do not compare with those our competitors get, while our products, properly produced, marketed and handled, are better than our competitors. That affects employment in a very substantial way. If we were finishing the processing of our meat and not putting cattle into intervention we would be doing a great day's work for employment.

In my constituency efforts are being made by the meat industry to diversify and develop. Sufficient help or encouragement is not being given by the various Departments to do this. Farmers in many cases are owners of the meat processing in co-ops. The farmers, the meat processers and the Department of Agriculture should come together to try to find out what is wrong with our product that it does not come on the European market at the same price as the products from other countries.

At the moment many meat processing factories are closing. We know that losses occur in many areas. I can give examples of many areas outside agriculture where losses are occurring in production. Meat processing is being done at a profit elsewhere. We are exporting our timber to Sweden and it is being sold back to us as hardboard and wallboard. Private enterprise has failed to process the timber here. The same thing applies to agriculture. There are private people who are producing mushrooms, exporting them to London and making a good profit. Despite this there is no plan in the Department of Agriculture to process our food, which is the best in the world.

Help must be given to maintain small farmers in particular. I am not talking about the man whose income has dropped by £80,000 or £40,000 but about the small man whose income was barely at survival level before this huge drop in income came. Is there any person who will say that something should be done for those people? A small farmer's wife visited me recently and told me how they have been struggling on a small piece of land. That man is looking for assistance from the health board to keep body and soul together. Those people have not got a penny. They owe money to the bank because they were progressive enough to erect buildings which Ministers and advisers advocated they should do. The bank manager may probably extend the terms of the loan to those people who still owe the money and the interest is increasing on it. The longer they owe that money the greater the increased interest will be. I am not talking about a broad spectrum of people but about small farmers who owe money because they try to be progressive. I am talking about people who had to sell their cow herds for slaughter. They had no option because they had to pay for their groceries.

A grant can be obtained from the EEC to help farmers to change away from dairying to beef. If the person is to receive that grant good cows will have to be slaughtered. Those cows cannot be transferred to somebody else even though they are good beasts. The person who thought up that scheme needs to have his head examined. This is the stupid kind of thinking we have by people in the EEC and even people in the Department of Agriculture. Those people have no thought for the advancement of agriculture.

The day of the huge price increase is gone and the day of the adjustment every six months is also gone. Unless we can sell our produce at the highest possible price we are facing a very bleak time. The last speaker pointed out that we are talking here about £39 million. If an emergency arises and if people keep coming on the dole queues the Government will have to get £50 million or even £100 million to pay them. The people I am talking about would prefer to be employed. If we are closing down food processing plants which employ 200 people we must think of what it will cost to pay them redundancy. Would it not be better, even running at a loss, to keep those plants going and go out to try to sell their produce?

It will take some person with initiative to grasp the nettle in relation to food processing and go in and do the job. People sitting in Kildare Street browsing over schemes from the EEC will never do it. We must have somebody in the ministerial seat who is prepared to grasp that nettle and develop our agricultural industry to its full potential. This industry is already employing 40 per cent of our people and has the best potential for increasing employment. The offshoots of agriculture are the mainstay of industry in the country. If we do not get those people working and producing it will be a sorry day not only for our agricultural sector but for all our people.

I was disappointed, though I should have expected a negative speech from Deputy Bruton. Most of what Deputy Bermingham said we all agree with, although it may not be exactly relevant to what is before us here today.

It is very relevant in view of the state of agriculture.

To say that anyone at this side of the House does not understand the position of farmers is quite ridiculous, because we certainly do. No man has done more to meet all the organisations and people interested in agriculture than the Minister for Agriculture. I can assure everybody here that every possible pressure will be exerted by the present Minister when he goes to Brussels to argue next year's prices. Deputy Bermingham has mentioned marketing and the processing of beef, about which I shall be talking in a moment, although it is not very relevant to the very important Estimates before us. I shall not delay too long on it, because it is important that we get it passed today. Payment under the farm modernisation scheme is a very important item.

We always get a fairly good speech from Deputy Bruton and I like listening to him on farming, but he mentioned an injection into farming of £300 million being necessary. He did not, however, give any indication of where the injection should be given and where it should be stopped.

I did. I said that the Irish taxpayer would have to contribute and that the EEC would have to contribute also.

Deputy Callanan is in possession.

I did not spell out the details.

The point I am making is this——

Everything in its time.

——that we went into the EEC and got three or four good years. Fair enough. It was the irresponsible working of the EEC which caused the flop in farming, along with other things which caused inflation, high prices and the rest. We realise on this side of the House how bad is the state of the farmers at present. Nobody realises that more. I want to make that quite clear, but what is going to be done about it is the important thing at present. I have said time and time again here that representatives from the Nine countries went back to Brussels and looked for all that they could get and quite right. However, to my mind there should be a lot more emphasis on getting the EEC to subsidise the cost of production which has not been done. By all means, let us look for an increased price but we shall not continue getting it forever. I have met foolish people who actually thought that cattle would go to £100 a cut., but at that price who would want to eat it? What is everybody's business is nobody's business and everyone tried for the best possible deal for himself and to hell with where the money came from

The EEC has increased from six to nine and there are a couple more very important directors who are not going to favour these increases. Britain did not pay her share last year towards CAP and as regards West Germany, we do not know what will happen. We are very lucky that some of the policies presented to us from the other side of the House, where Members were looking for more power for the European Parliament during the time of the election, were not accepted. I want to remind them of that. If the European Parliament had power today, what would happen CAP? The only hope for CAP is that it still depends on the Nine Ministers who are going over there. I believe that we have one of the best of the Nine going back to do the best he can for this country. There is no doubt about that and as far as the small farmers are concerned, he comes from the west of Ireland, which is the most neglected area in this country.

Take the farm modernisation scheme. Payment under this scheme increased from £15 million last year to over £30 million this year. I would like to inquire at some stage into the spending of the money under Directive 159 and how much of that, as a percentage and in actual figures was paid to the people in the traditional categories who if under 50 years of age got only 30 per cent and if over 55 years of age, 20 per cent. At some stage I want to know where all the money and the grants went.

It is important that the grants should be increased, particularly to the smaller farmer. I would not expect very elaborate buildings and having almost a dwelling-house for cattle, but it is of absolute importance that the small farmer keep his herd and make silage. The Minister this year has given a grant of £50 for the first acre of silage. If a farmer wants to keep his cattle, he must take them off the land during the winter and house them. To get adequate housing there must be adequate grants. The present grants for the smaller farmer are very inadequate. The cost of this housing is always a lot higher than the first estimate would indicate and the farmer then gets a lower percentage. I want to see that directive changed. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, I do not expect the small farmer to get more, but he should get the same grant as the larger farmer. I hope that the western package will do something in that direction.

There is no doubt that the Minister for Agriculture will do everything in his power to get the best deal. What I would expect from every side of the House here is a recommendation on what should be done in the present bad situation of our farmers and of those of Europe. Even if we succeed in getting a price rise every year, does that solve the problem? I say no. Price rises are very acceptable but mean nothing when the cost of production overtakes them. We have had good prices for three years but the cost of production ran up after the prices. When we got a price reduction, the cost of production still stayed up because of inflation. Subsidies for fertilisers are what I would like to see, as they would bring down the cost of production on the farm. The EEC at present forbids these subsidies, but there can be a national subsidy and I am hoping for this. The EEC does not give subsidies, it only allows high prices, which is the wrong policy from the word go. I may not be popular in saying this but if the cost of production was kept down, the farmer might be better off taking £100 less for his beasts because of the lower cost of production. The bad position of our farmers today comes from bad, inefficient management within the EEC. We may discuss agriculture here but all the decisions at the moment come from Brussels. We get those decisions back from Brussels as directives. If we got a chance to make recommendations, things would be better. I see Deputy D'Arcy in the House and I hope he and other Members will suggest to the Minister what they think should be done at present.

When Macra na Feirme representatives were here yesterday, they suggested 10 per cent of a rise and the rest in subsidies and devaluation of the green £. I do not know whether it is practical or not. There are a lot of snags in devaluation, but the suggestions about subsidies and interest rates are good. Unfortunately, most of those who have loans at high interest rates are the younger generation. Older farmers were too conservative to borrow large sums of money. They were not going to pay any heed to the advertisements on the radio and television encouraging farmers with 80 acres of land to borrow £120,000. The person who suggested that should have his head examined, because a farmer could not pay that back. The young people were enthusiastic because they went into farming at a time when prices were good and made their investments on the assumption that the prices would remain good for two or three years. It was on the basis that prices would improve that they agreed to certain commitments.

There have always been cycles in farming and almost every five years a slump occurs. Some farmers lose heart when they run into a depression such as at present because they have not experienced such an occurence before. I would be worried about a reduction in the cattle herd but I do not believe there should be a restriction on the export of cattle in order to improve cattle numbers. The farmer engaged in producing young beasts has experienced difficult times before but has always managed to come out of recessions. I do not understand why cattle have to be exported on the hoof to be slaughtered abroad. We are supposed to have very good beef and, as a farmer from the west, I approve of such exports; nevertheless I believe factories in Ireland who have the raw materials at their disposal should find it possible to compete with other countries.

The main cause of the reduction in cow numbers is disease. It must be remembered that when a cow has to be killed a calf is also lost. Disease eradication is the biggest problem that has to be faced by farmers. I do not know how we can tackle it, but it is serious. Some time ago I suggested that a subsidy be paid to farmers who keep calves. They were sold for half nothing in 1974, and the price was very bad about eight months ago also, but if a subsidy was available it would be possible to increase the cattle herd. If our cattle herd decreases much more the country will be facing a serious problem. I would not agree to some of the other suggestions put forward to improve our cattle herd such as the stopping of export of young cattle.

Deputy Bruton dealt in detail with the question of agricultural education. It is true that county committees of agriculture did not get sufficient money for this purpose from any Government. Now ACOT have taken over this matter and programmes have been forwarded to headquarters from the regional committees. We cannot complain to the Minister until we see the budget that will be given to ACOT in next year's Estimate. It must be remembered that county councils will be asked to subscribe a certain amount of money to ACOT and we must be reasonable about that. In my county they are looking for more instructors to help in the farm modernisation scheme and in the carrying out of the educational programme.

The Minister has been criticised about the premium for sheep. I do not agree with the suggestion that a premium should be paid on the carcase. I have always expressed the view that anything given in the form of a subsidy to farmers should be paid directly to them on their ewes. Inspections should be carried out carefully and quality taken into consideration. The Minister made a right decision in deciding to pay the subsidy direct to the farmers. Indirect subsidies seldom find their way back to the farming community. The sheep industry needed such a subsidy scheme badly.

This was a disastrous year for tillage, not because of prices but because of the weather. Farmers, unlike other sections of the community, depend a lot on the weather and this year was a disaster from that point of view. It was also bad for dairy farmers. There was plenty of grass but not of the right type. It resulted in cows producing milk of such a quality that did not produce good butter fat. The grass was soft and the butter fat yield was low with the result that the income of dairy farmers fell. It is a pity more beef is not produced in the west and any move to improve that situation would be welcome. Farmers would gain more than they do by just producing them and selling them to be finished elsewhere.

I am very anxious that this Estimate should be passed today. The most important thing now is to have a reappraisal of the whole set up within the EEC. More emphasis is needed on costs of production. If farmers get a price increase each year, that gives the impression to other sections of the community that the farmers are millionaires. If I get an increase which raises my income from £4,000 to £6,000 and my outlay goes up by £2,000 as well, that is not worth a damn to me.

Are we on the right lines in the EEC? Have not disastrous decisions been made within the EEC to concentrate on prices without considering where the money comes from? Money for the CAP is provided by contributions from member states. It is 1 per cent or something like that. Pools and mountains are created. It would be better to give subsidies to help the farmers towards their costs of production instead of emphasising prices. This may be an unpopular thing to say, but does anyone seriously think prices will go up by 20 per cent each year? If that were the case, what would the price of beef be? As an ordinary individual I consider that stupid thinking. Costs of production must be watched to give farmers a reasonable profit, which they are not getting now. They are losing money because prices are falling and costs of production are going up.

Let nobody think that is not realised on this side of the House. It is realised by the Minister. We have had good Ministers for Agriculture and we had good men going to Brussels. I wonder were they all looking for what they could get in the line of prices, because others were doing the same. Deputy Bruton said agriculture needs an injection of £300 million. I would not disagree, but in what way do you inject it? The vast majority of it would have to come from the EEC.

There is unrest among the farming community at present. I hope the Minister will meet the farmers' leaders, have discussions with them and find out what they would like to have done in the long term. A short term injection, like an increase in prices for one year with no hope of an increase in the following year, is not on. An increase in the headage grants is a good thing. I hope the grant for the disadvantaged areas will be increased shortly.

A remark was made about the rates and it was said that farmers got back half only. We got it all back because we are not asked for the second moiety. My valuation is £43. I paid what I would pay normally and the second moiety would be the increase. If you get back the second moiety you are getting back the total increase.

The Chair closes its ears to the word "rates". That is a matter for another Minister.

I always obey the Chair but hardly any phase of agriculture was not dealt with by Deputy Bruton.

It was said that they got back only half. They got back the whole lot. If your rates went from £300 to £600, you paid £300 last year and the other £300 was the increase in the two moieties. This means you are as you were, apart from whatever the increase in the £ was in your county. When Deputies give figures they should try to be accurate. Many Deputies know a great deal about agriculture, but I have been in that industry for a long time. I would have a debate with anybody on the inefficient running of agriculture by the EEC over the past three or four years, and the type of thinking over there. Do they ever think about what will happen in ten years' time, how they are running the Community or where the money will come from, or are they prepared to support the CAP by subscribing to it? If they are why not inject money into keeping down farming costs so that farmers could do with a smaller increase in prices?

It is appropriate to have this opportunity to express our views on the crisis facing the agricultural industry. I said to the Minister last week, in the debate on the beef situation, that I would welcome his views on what hope there is for that industry. It is only right that this debate should be widened. I accept that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle has his job to do and I will not tell him how to do it.

I have mentioned my difficulty already. The Chair is allowing a certain amount of latitude but, strictly speaking, the debate should be confined to the headings of the Supplementary Estimate before us.

The farmers are eagerly awaiting the debate on agriculture in this House. I told the Minister that we gave him a chance to make his impact on the overall situation. We did not harass him over the past year. From now on we will making our case on agriculture.

I always like to hear Deputy Callanan speaking because he speaks from his heart. What he says is accurate, but he said Deputy Bruton did not put forward constructive suggestions. I should like to bring to his notice the document produced by Deputy Bruton and which I assisted in compiling. It deals with agriculture from start to finish.

I have not seen it.

The Deputy should send us a copy.

I will do what the Minister asks. I will send a copy to Fianna Faéil Deputies who are interested in agriculture. It is a very useful document and its headings are wide and varied: policy needed, can anything be done, proposals for action, direct income aid, boosting output, income tax, the lifestock sector, credit, marketing, long-term planning and conclusion.

Is the Deputy's picture in it?

No. I am not spokesman for our party on agriculture. The estimate for the Department of Agriculture is huge and the increases under the different headings are substantial. In these estimates increases are demanded under different headings. Deputy Bruton dealt briefly with education. I have always been interested in education in agriculture. This area has been neglected and the present administration have done nothing to improve the situation. Our future lies in the standard of education of our young farmers. Farmers should not attempt to go into business without first doing at least one year in an agricultural college. Money has been handed back under the education heading and this is very disappointing. In our county committees of agriculture there have been demands for scholarships to the agricultural colleges. In 1979 there were 75 applications for 25 places and the figure is more or less the same for 1980. This is a disastrous situation. People who should have this education as a basic right, as they are moving into an industry that is of national importance, cannot obtain the necessary education to get the best use from that industry. We asked the Minister to take over a certain college in Wexford and start an agricultural college so as to create a number of extra scholarship places. The Minister said that it was not suitable but he should have come up with an alternative suggestion. The time to give farmers education is when they are interested. They are not interested when they have been farming for three or four years, and night classes are not sufficient. People should be able to avail of at least one year in an agricultural college before going into farming. There has not been any attempt in the last five or six years to increase the number of places available to young farmers but today under this Estimate we are handing back money under the heading of education, research and advisory services. The Department have sufficient land and if they cannot get suitable buildings they can build some. There should be no obstacle. There are 1,000 acres attached to Johnstown Castle and we could have an agricultural college there. I would not deface the castle but we have land three and four miles away from the castle suitable for the building of an agricultural college.

I objected to Deputy Gibbons as Minister dividing the research and advisory services. The then Minister insisted that An Foras Taluéntais be made into a virtually autonomous body. Research and development should go hand in hand in any industry. This was a retrograde step. The Minister's predecessor Deputy Mark Clinton had gone to great pains to try to co-ordinate the services available. This was accepted by everyone with a genuine interest in the progress of agriculture although there were certain objectors just as there are in relation to any legislation. The Agricultural Institute should be involved in the education of farmers as they have a wealth of knowledge, the expertise, the equipment and the capacity to do the job. The amount of money for An Foras Talúntais is in the region of £11 million. That is completely for research. I would not reduce the importance of research at every level but there is no point in having research without having a follow-up. There is a wealth of knowledge in the offices of An Foras Talúntais and in Deputy Mark Clinton's day An Foras Talúntais was brought under the education heading so that it be used for the education of young farmers. There have not been proposals to remedy the deficiency in the number of places available in our agricultural colleges. It will take time to remedy this because we cannot build colleges overnight. I appeal to the Minister even at this stage to try to do something about this deficiency.

In relation to county committees of agriculture we have a serious problem in our county because the IFA, the most important organisation in the county, are refusing to take their place on the county committees of agriculture. In the past week a huge meeting was called in Wexford to have a look at the prices in agriculture. The IFA advised farmers to scale down their operations. This is very serious. The IFA were given an opportunity to take their place in the county committees of agriculture and during the debate the Minister said that he could see no problem in relation to these places for the different rural organisations. There is a serious situation in the Minister's county when the organisation which have a branch in practically every parish, sits on the sideline and advises people to scale down their operations, when they should be in the county committees of agriculture expressing their views and putting suggestions forward to try to solve the crisis in agriculture. I contacted the IFA and they informed me that they had discussions with the Minister on this issue and are awaiting a reply. The Minister is responsible for this serious situation and something should be done quickly to remedy it.

During the course of that Bill I could see that there would be problems. The majority of people on the committees represent the smaller organisations but it is vital that the IFA take their place on the committee. I appeal to the Minister to ensure that these people are satisfied with his answer. Not enough consideration was given to the people who would take their places on the county committees and I was not surprised when I saw a problem with the IFA in my county.

I have not seen any sign of the great work that should be coming from the new body. During the fodder crisis they made a statement. There were three or four fine days at the end of a very long wet period and they stated that during the short period of fine weather 80 per cent of the hay had been put under cover or into sheds on the farms when the truth of the matter was that 80 per cent of the hay was dumped in the ditches. This type of statement should not be made by a responsible body because it gives the wrong impression. The people in our town said "You got your hay in but you also got grants as a result of losing the hay". Whom are they to believe? It is a great mistake to make this kind of inaccurate statement. Everybody knows what happened. Eighty per cent of the hay was dumped and that is all it was fit for because there was about six weeks of continuous rain on the hay made in July. This type of statement should not be made.

The Minister in his speech said that farmers continued to show a high level of confidence in the future of their industry by investing at an unprecedented rate in land improvement, buildings and so on. That is another statement that gives the wrong impression. I do not know who the Minister is trying to fool by it. They are not investing in land improvement or buildings. The reason why there is a huge demand for the grants to be paid is that some of them are due for over four years. They were held up either because the accounts were not in order or the job was not completed. All of a sudden the bank managers or ACC who funded the work put on pressure for the grants to be paid.

As regards land reclamation I know of three contractors in Wexford — it is a county that would not be behind as far as land reclamation and investment in agriculture are concerned — who have let half their staff go and one has pulled in his machinery and said there is no way he can continue under the present circumstances. We had a situation where grants were held up for 16 weeks. People applied to the Department for their grants after spending perhaps a year trying to get their accounts in order and cleared at local level. This was a great mistake at local level. Not alone did one have to put up a silage pit but a milking parlour, slurry pit and so on, and one could not draw a grant until all this work was completed. This involved huge expenditure, which was not so bad when one was talking in terms of 10 and 11 per cent interest but when one was talking in terms of 18 and 20 per cent it was very difficult. When the banks found these accounts could not be paid they put a further penalty interest rate on of 2 per cent. I have often written to the Minister asking that such-and-such an applicant be given his grant because he was paying a 2 per cent interest rate over and above the normal one. The banks were very short-sighted to have put on this penalty. In the years ahead there will be a scaling down of investment in agriculture unless something is done about it quickly.

Some farmers got into serious financial difficulty as the result of doing some of this work and a 16-week delay at Departmental level played havoc with those waiting for the grants. Some people were waiting for up to two years for the grants to be paid. I am not sure what the present position is but there should be speedy repayments. At local level all kinds of problems crop up about these grants. Some of the accounts give considerable problems. I appeal to the Minister to ensure that they are not delayed in the Department for more than four weeks. A farmer could then go to the bank and state that he will have his grant in four weeks.

Disease eradication is very important. I noted an air of pessimism in the Minister's speech. Progress is slow and it has been so for the last ten years. All kinds of restrictions were brought in such as the 30-day test which presented huge problems for farmers. Brucellosis eradication should be easier than TB eradication. The Department's inspectors should be prepared to supervise the disinfecting of farmers' places where there is a high incidence of TB or brucellosis. We are spending a lot of money on this and farmers should have to say because they put up £10 million as a contribution towards the cost of eradication of bovine diseases. I am not pleased with the progress made. I have a large herd and have no complaints about the local office. I have never had an inspection from the Department. I had a breakdown in the herd of both TB and brucellosis. One gets all the documents but I do not think it is the job of the person who serves the documents to see that the place is disinfected. We do it ourselves but there is no compulsion on us to do so.

This costs taxpayers £11 million and the farmers £10 million. More care should be taken because the Department have a huge expenditure under this heading. The Minister is pessimistic about the progress being made. Far greater progress could and should be made. I am glad that leukosis has been wiped out. It was not a big problem. It was very near our doorstep in the Wexford and south Wicklow area. We had sufficient problems with brucellosis and TB without having a third disease.

We heard a lot of praise for the sheep headage payment from the Minister. I disagree with Deputy Callanan when he said it should be paid to a person with ewes. It should be the aim of the State to improve the quality of sheep and cattle. Paying the headage grant completely on ewes will not improve the position because there could be a situation where sheep breeders would retain cast ewes in the herd for no other reason than to collect the grant, particularly when cast ewes are at a bad price.

They will not be paid.

There is no point in saying that because the Minister knows the problems there would be in inspecting sheep. Are they going to open the mouth of every sheep in the country? It would be a physical impossibility. You have the smart boys who will put cast ewes in with bad elders. Are you going to examine all of them? That would be a physical impossibility. They will be traded by people who are more clever than the Department's inspectors. They will get their £5 or £7 or whatever the grant is. This is a bad situation. This grant should have been divided in an attempt to improve the quality of lambs. Deputy Callanan said that he believed that the grant never got back to the farmer.

There is a fair amount of competition at the moment for the lambs throughout the various factories in the country. A big factory in Mayo is buying every day from Wexford because they cannot get sufficient lambs in their own county. Factories in Waterford are also buying in Wexford. The Minister would do a good job and would improve the quality of our lambs if he gave half of that payment at the slaughter end provided that the animals came up to a certain standard. We talk about efficiency but the Department of Agriculture are paying for inefficiency, and we get inefficiency in, for example, the suckler herds. Our bad cows are breeding very poor quality cattle and if we want to make any impression on the European markets we must have good quality sheep and cattle. We hand out these grants which will be abused by the farmers. I repeat that half of those grants should be paid at the slaughtering end of the sheep trade.

I make the same point about the suckler herds as I have made here previously. I would advise people under no circumstances to get involved in suckler herds. Any farmer who believes he can make a good living out of suckler herds, unless he has virtually a ranch, is only fooling himself. The only way that I know of whereby a farmer can keep himself poor is to have a suckler herd. It is the costliest way of producing beef. The grants for the suckler herds also should be given to the people who are not in milk production but who are prepared to enter into a good calf to beef scheme. Thus the quality of their cattle can be improved because in order to qualify for the suckler herd grant the standard of cow does not matter, at least to my knowledge. The continued backing up of suckler herds is bad policy and is no foundation for agriculture, and this should have been corrected long ago.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I will take the liberty of saying a few general words on the agricultural situation if you can bear with me.

I will do my best.

How long have I left?

The Deputy has half an hour.

The downward trend in the agricultural industry is completely the responsibility of the present Government because of the policies they have pursued during the past three and a half years. It is unbelievable that so much damage could be done in such a short time to the industry which had been growing and thriving since we went into the EEC and which should be the cornerstone of the economy of this nation. Instead, in the past three and a half years we have seen complete demoralisation, lack of confidence and uncertainty on the part of those engaged in the industry. Even at this late stage it is logical that we try to convince the Government as to where they went wrong in those three and a half years in order that at least in this debate we may ensure that some of the mistakes that have been made will not be repeated in the 1981 budget.

In the 1979 budget the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Colley, introduced the now famous system as a means of collecting revenue for his Department known as the levy system. After the meeting of the Minister with the farmers' representatives the impression was given that this 2 per cent levy was about to be dropped. A short period elapsed and we had a further statement to the effect that it was to be reintroduced.

The Chair will not bear with the Deputy very long on taxation matters because they are for another Minister.

I have not been talking very long on taxation, and other Deputies got in their word on rates. So far I think everybody has spoken about rates.

If we get away from the headings we have we will all be in trouble. I have given a lot of latitude.

Then we had the PAYE march and headings in the papers saying "Surrender" on one side and as a result of that the Minister turned around and all was put back on again. I see a heading here "MacSharry favours realistic tax allowances"— this was in the Farmers Journal for week ending 25 September 1979. This is a farm tax not related to profits or earnings. If you show a loss you still pay the tax.

The 1980 budget as far as agriculture is concerned must be described as disastrous, inconsiderate and designed to create hardship, misery and misunderstanding among the farming community. It is unbelievable that a Government could be so out of touch with the realities of the situation.

It is not a general debate.

The Minister should stay out of this. The Deputy is on taxation matters and they are for the Minister for Finance. The budget and taxation do not concern the Minister for Agriculture.

I will be very brief now as far as taxation is concerned.

We are getting into a Wexford debate now and the Chair does not want that either.

The elimination of the rates subsidy for people of over £40 valuation and the introduction of the resource tax bore no relation to profit. The aim of the Government at the time was to extract from the farmers a predetermined sum to cover two-thirds of the expenses of the Department of Agriculture. This has been the rock on which the Government and the farmers have perished. The failure of the Government to introduce a fair and equitable system of tax collection from farmers, having built into the system a suitable incentive to ensure that in the interests of the economy agriculture would grow and prosper——

I ask Deputy D'Arcy please to get away from taxation. He is completely out of order on taxation. Whatever about other farming matters that do not arise on the Estimate, when he gets on to taxation the Chair would be wrong to allow it to continue.

The Government's handling of agriculture is pathetic at all levels. Their attempt to resolve the fodder shortage was feeble. Announcing that they were providing £4 million to remedy the situation demonstrates the incompetence with which they were operating. What could be described as the crumbs are all that can be offered to agriculture. This offer demonstrates that the Government have no conception of the gravity of the situation that exists in agriculture. The problems are serious and require immediate action.

All farmers were advised to modernise and develop their holdings. They entered into sizeable commitments to carry out these developments. With increased interest rates alone the repayments doubled in a two-year period and in the same period profits as far as agriculture was concerned were reduced. Everybody seems to give his own figure but I found from own accounts that over the past two years the profits were reduced by approximately 40 per cent. If any other line of business were placed in the same set of conditions, how long could they survive? They would be bankrupt, and if certain measures are not taken a lot of farmers will end up bankrupt. No farmer who finds now that his repayments, whether to the bank or the ACC, have doubled can have foreseen that situation. It is most unsatisfactory that farmers find themselves worse off than when we entered the EEC in 1972. The indications are clear to those who wish to see them. There is a reduction in respect of the application of lime and in the application of artificial manure as we see from the Estimate. Worst of all, we have to slaughter our cow herd. It is reasonable to estimate that at least 400,000 cows will be slaughtered in 1980, and that is far too high a rate of culling from the national cow herd. It is retrograde and such a measure can only be taken for short term gain, to enable farmers to pay off their loans. It will have serious consequences on our cattle exports and will affect our balance of payments seriously.

On 29 November last in County Cavan I suggested certain steps that could be taken by the Minister. I said that positive action is needed immediately. Today we had some suggestions, not many, and I am disappointed that the Chair has been insisting that we stick closely to the Supplementary Estimate. The Minister widened the debate——

The Chair has been allowing all Deputies to deal with the Minister's statement. I have given plenty of latitude. What I am worried about is the extension of the debate to taxation and other such matters.

We must go to the EEC and demand at least a 12 per cent increase in the price of our produce whether by way of a devaluation of the green £ or otherwise. In the last year all the increase given to agriculture have been eaten up and anything less than 12 per cent will not compensate for the huge increases in production costs. This would only be a first step to re-establish confidence among farmers. The Government must give a commitment that all moneys extracted from farmers will be based on profits, whether the extractions be in rates, levies or income tax. Farming is a business and it must be treated as such. Taxes should be based on profits. The Government must appreciate the benefit to the State from the agricultural industry. We are facing an Estimate of £179 million, but how much of that will find its way into the farmers' pockets? Are we satisfied with the way the money will be spent?

Never before has there been a greater need for investment in agriculture. The industry is not at the crossroads but at a standstill, and during this year farmers have been asking how many further burdens will be placed on them. There has been indecision and lack of commitment by the Government. In the past week we have seen acutely how bad things are in agriculture. Where did the money come from for the national understanding? Where did the £13 million come from for the Donegal by-election?

We must stay somewhere near the Supplementary Estimate.

Who wrote the speech for you?

I am quite capable of writing it myself. Other Deputies have been allowed to widen the debate.

The millions spent in Donegal have nothing to do with the matter before the House.

What about the manifesto promises?

We were getting along nicely before the Deputy arrived.

Will Deputy D'Arcy tell us how to solve the problems?

You are paid by the taxpayers of the country to advise the Government on how to provide the money. Deputy Allen is as well aware as I of the way Wexford farmers have been reinvesting in their farms, whether they are 20 acres or 200.

You have no alternative to offer.

The Government should be ashamed of themselves and the serious damage they have been doing to our national resources. Any proposals you have are completely inadequate. As Deputy Bruton said, you have no long term proposals. All you are doing is a public relations job, a mickey mouse operation Deputy Bermingham called it.

You would not open a cowshed.

Will Deputy L'Estrange go out and open something and let us proceed with the debate? The Chair does not want to take responsibility for all the horrible things Deputy D'Arcy has been attributing to it. Would he address the Minister in the third person?

We have been told that all the decisions are being made in Brussels. The resource tax decision was not made in Brussels. The levy system was not conceived in Brussels. Our inflation rate was not caused in Brussels. When France and Germany have inflation rates of between 6 per cent and 7 per cent, ours is 19 per cent. We have difficulty in transporting our produce to our foreign markets. Nevertheless, I believe our farmers should be given encouragement in order to remove uncertainty and create a little confidence. I am advising farmers not to despair.

I am delighted to hear the Deputy say that.

I said that before, but the Government are not giving the farmers any hope. They are creating further despair and uncertainty and eroding confidence. The result will be further damage to the economy.

How does the Deputy's contribution help them?

The Minister was not here.

I was listening to the Deputy's speech and to the speech of the Deputy who spoke before him.

Deputy Smith rose.

(Interruptions.)

Fine Gael were asked in Donegal to tell their policies but they do not have any.

When you are finished the Chair would like to take over. Deputy D'Arcy said he was finished and was resuming his seat. I have called the next Deputy.

The Minister asked how my contribution helped. I outlined the necessary steps to alleviate the situation.

The Deputy did not mention them.

I have called the next Deputy.

Did I not mention a 12 per cent increase in agricultural production, reducing inflation, derating the land——

Deputy D'Arcy, the Chair has called the next speaker. The Deputy may not start another speech because a Deputy intervened, which he should not do.

This is the first opportunity we have had to debate the very wide range of activities which come under the Department of Agriculture. It is a pity that on this occasion the Opposition spokesmen, particularly Deputy Bruton and Deputy D'Arcy, both of whom spoke for almost an hour each, confined themselves almost exclusively to a litany of criticism of the Government without putting forward any solutions the Government can apply to halt the decline in agriculture. The need to halt this decline is agreed on all sides and was acknowledged by the Minister not just this morning but at a number of meetings held regularly with farming representatives in an effort to see how the Government could do more for the agricultural sector.

The speeches by Deputy Bruton and Deputy Bermingham called the measures taken so far "mickey mouse efforts". I will not say I consider the Government have gone far enough. Further consultations are taking place to improve the package for agriculture. But to ridicule these efforts, decided on with the full agreement of the farming organisations, is less than responsible.

Agriculture is Ireland's major industry. It gainfully employs 23 per cent of the population directly and about 50 per cent in ancillary industries. It accounts for almost 40 per cent of our total exports and, because of its nature, the inputs to agriculture in import terms are only one-quarter what they are for general industrial jobs. Looking at those basic figures, we must all realise the extent to which we rely on agriculture. We should use our collective wisdom to arrest this decline and help our farmers, individually and collectively, out of the present crisis.

I do not intend to mask the underlying problems that exist. I do not intend to play down the anxieties experienced by individual farmers. Farmers have been used to ups and downs. In his contribution Deputy D'Arcy said he was worried about the number of cows being slaughtered. I agree with him, but he must agree with me that the drop in the cow numbers this year, which is bad, is about two-thirds of the drop which took place when his party were in power during the recession of 1974-75. At that time calves were taken into the cattle marts and no price was offered for them. Farmers went home and left them in the sales yard.

The same applies today.

But with a difference. Our Minister is prepared to do more for these people. He has introduced certain measures. Can the Deputy tell me one measure introduced by the Coalition Minister for Agriculture at a time when about 700,000 cows were slaughtered in less than 12 months and the beef herd had practically disappeared?

Deputies condemned the suckler scheme. None of us is claiming that the incentives in it are very dramatic. However, it is not a question of not agreeing to a suckler scheme, suggesting as you did that you would rather it was paid on a calf-to-beef basis——

Through the Chair, please.

The Minister is trying to increase our livestock numbers, but this cannot be done very effectively in the way suggested by Deputy D'Arcy. We must concentrate on production cows. Not only has the decline in cow numbers to be arrested but we must try to get them to rise anyway we can and any incentives towards that end are to be welcomed.

I want to move from those few general comments on the failure of the Opposition parties to put forward concrete suggestions on what might be done and to make one or two suggestions myself. If we look at agriculture on the basis of this Estimate there are a number of areas where an attack has to be made to maximise the potential development of agriculture. Obviously, the first area that needs to be tackled is the area of prices. The real problem in agriculture has been caused by the failure of prices to keep pace with inflation. Production costs continued to increase while price increases were not possible. This resulted in a dramatic decrease in the level of farm incomes.

Contrary to the suggestion made earlier, during the past three-and-a-half years, the level of investment in Irish agriculture continued to grow. If any Deputy has regard to the number of applications for various grants in respect of farm organisations, he will realise that during the past three years the number of such applications has been twice what was the figure between 1973 and 1977. I am making this point because there was an implication in an earlier contribution that the level of grants paid this year was an indication of the number of farmers who had applied for these grants during a three-and-a-half year period and that the grants were not paid until this year. That is not so. In my constituency of North Tipperary, in 1978-79 practically 1,000 farmers availed of these grants. Last year the number was 980 and this year I hope it will exceed 1,200. I admit that the level of investment in farm development is not of the order that we would wish for but the reason for this is that the amount of profits accruing to farmers are not of an order that would enable them to undertake farm development from these resources alone. Therefore, they must borrow if they are to develop but the levels of interest rates have been such in recent times as to make that prohibitive on the basis of a cost-benefit analysis. There may also have been cases of farmers having borrowed already to an extent that might be described as excessive in an effort to streamline and to modernise for the future.

Prices are determined in Brussels and on this front, judging from what we have seen so far of the performance of the Minister for Agriculture, we can rest assured that his input and that of his officials will be such as to ensure that price increases to the farming community will be the best that can be got even if that is in a climate which is not conducive, perhaps, to very optimistic trends so far as the possibilities are concerned. In his efforts, the Minister will have the backing of this House. His area of responsibility is of paramount importance to the whole country.

The question of the devaluation of the green £ is an area in which obviously something can be done. However, price rises in respect of farm produce add to inflation and in that way erode their value to some extent. Another area to which I should like to draw attention is that area whereby the Government extract money from agriculture. I do not know how great have been the pressures in this regard but subsidies should be paid wherever possible. It is not my intention to belittle, for instance, the silage fodder scheme. Almost 17,000 farmers considered it worth while to avail of that scheme, the lateness of which was due to problems created by bad weather, but that was a situation that the Minister could not have foreseen. Encouraged by the impact that the scheme has had in the relatively short time of its existence and taking into account that farmers were being urged to do something which was in many ways contrary to what might be regarded as good farming practice, that is, the conservation of winter fodder, I suggest that the scheme be continued. I am not saying that it should become a permanent feature of departmental activity but perhaps it could be continued for people going into silage for the first time. The scheme has the dual effect of ensuring adequate supplies of fodder, regardless of weather conditions, and of enabling farmers to increase livestock numbers. Not only must we increase stock numbers but we must ensure that there is adequate winter feed for them. To that extent we encourage first-time silage farmers as much as possible and we follow up that by aggressive marketing, by developing by-products of produce and in ensuring in so far as possible that when extra produce is available there is a viable market for it. In this way we ensure the continuity of production and the maintenance of employment in the industry.

There are problems in this whole area. When, for instance, the Government urge farmers to increase cattle stocks, they cannot be aware of problems that may arise later. In, say, a four-year period from the time of any such decision to the end result in terms of beef, a number of problems could arise which could not have been foreseen originally. All we can do is to make every effort possible to ensure continued growth in this area. We must do everything possible to encourage early silage. It might be worth while considering paying subsidies at the rate of, say, £3 per ton in respect of first-time silage making, £2 per ton in respect of the following year's production and so on to a phasing out stage.

I referred earlier to the expansion and development in land improvement and in the provision of winter buildings by way of the farm modernisation scheme. A good deal remains to be done in that area. Because of the high interest rates obtaining and because of the pessimism that can be generated through all the talk of doom and gloom in relation to agriculture, the confidence of those farmers who have not borrowed already and who have not developed their holdings can be shaken to a point where they will be afraid to borrow for the purpose of undertaking necessary developments on their lands or for the provision of the buildings that would be necessary in the light of herd expansion. Perhaps farm modernisation grants could be paid at the half-way stage. In other words I am asking whether it would be possible to pay half the amount of such a grant at the stage when half or little more than half the work was completed. This will enable farmers to proceed with the work without undertaking unnecessary borrowing. I should like the Minister to consider that proposition and to implement it if feasible.

The scheme relating to disadvantaged areas is covered in the Estimate. I come from a county that has been totally excluded from the advantages that flow from that scheme although there is a proposal with the Commission to include the Slieve Felim area which comprises seven or eight parishes in the hilly area of Tipperary, in Kilcommon, Rear Cross, Upperchurch and parts of Templederry and Hollyford. During the general election campaign a serious commitment was given to people in those areas to include them in the scheme. There had been no progress on the matter by the National Coalition when they were in office. I want to pay tribute to the Minister for Agriculture for a major breakthrough in the negotiations to cover a wider area in the scheme. He has been able to get the Commission to accept a wider area for consideration.

I understand that the original scheme covered the maximum possible at the time and that remained the position until the Minister got a concession to increase the area. He should intensify his efforts to finalise the matter. The area I have mentioned is 1,000 feet above sea level and the population has shown a decline since the famine times. I do not have to mention the poor soil fertility of such hilly areas. As has been the case in other areas, a group of young farmers came together to play their part in remedying the situation. About a year ago a farming co-operative was inaugurated and worthwhile work has been done in organising schemes for the area; there has been work on deep ploughing schemes, on contractor availability and so on. Although there are limitations imposed because of the size of farms, the population structure, soil analyses and so on, the young people who have done such good work are to be congratulated. If the Minister is successful in getting this area included it will be a great moral boost for the people. It will encourage greater land improvement and development generally and arrest the decline in population. It will renew confidence in a hinterland in the hills of north and south Tipperary and parts of east Limerick.

During the debate and at Question Time on occasions in the past few years I have been glad to note a change of attitude on the part of the Opposition Parties with regard to their support for the Government in measures taken to eradicate disease in our herds. I accept that they may be unpopular and awkward for individual farmers and expensive for the country and the farmers but I was glad to see the support the Minister has been getting from Opposition Deputies in recent times for efforts that began when we came back to office and which has been intensified since then to rid the country of brucellosis and TB. There is no need to go into detail on what these diseases are costing the country. About 80,000 calves are lost each year because of brucellosis. Therefore, any expenditure, whether State grants or individual efforts by farmers, is worth while if we are to increase our exports and provide animals for our meat processing units. The advantages in clearing the disease far outweigh any short-term disadvantages that have to be experienced by individual farmers.

One other disease that should be mentioned is that of mastitis in dairy herds. Recent figures by An Foras Talúntais show a loss of up to £40 million in milk production. Research on better management, on post-milking disinfection, on dry cow therapy and so on show that the incidence of this disease can be reduced, thus effecting a considerable saving of money for the economy generally and for individual farmers. I should like the Minister to give help so that research work may be carried out and also to help ACOT and farmers generally.

I should like to say a few words about the provision of adequate educational facilities for the farming community. Proposals have been put forward already for the building of more agricultural schools. Though undoubtedly additional places are necessary, by the time such would come on stream the effective numbers involved would not be sufficiently significant. Therefore we should take a closer look at how the present educational system could be utilised to lay a better educational groundwork for farming generally.

Debate adjourned.
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