I have given permission to Deputy T.J. Fitzpatrick (Cavan-Monaghan) to raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of the private notice question taken today.
Adjournment Debate. - Department's Telephone Service.
(Cavan-Monaghan): I was alarmed and even shocked to hear this morning that the Minister for Social Welfare had apparently given a direction that the disability allowance section of his Department was not to be available to the general public, Senators or Deputies for the time being. I put down a private notice question to have this alarming state of affairs confirmed and to find out what the Minister proposed to do about it. I was equally shocked at the reply that the Minister gave and his attitude in general towards this alarming situation.
The position is that for a considerable time now, many months, the social welfare beneficiaries who are in receipt of or entitled to sickness or disability benefit find it impossible to get their benefit paid in any sort of time. I am told very often by constituents that they have furnished eight, nine, ten and more certificates without getting any payment, which means that they are waiting for their benefit for ten weeks. That is a very traumatic experience for these people, many of whom are married men with no other means of support for themselves, their wives and families than the social welfare benefits to which they have contributed by stamps in the old days and by payrelated social insurance at present. When they lodge these certificates and the payment does not come they are with their backs to the wall because in many towns the small grocer has gone and these people simply have no credit. When they find on Thursday or Friday that they have run out of money and are presented with a long account in front of them there is nothing for them only the supplementary benefit, which used to be home assistance, payable by the community welfare officers of the health boards, who do their best, but they cannot be in every place, they cannot be available around the clock, and some of them live a distance from the towns where they are required. In a nutshell, when these beneficiaries cannot get their social welfare benefit paid on time on the very day on which it should come they are in trouble. It might appear strange to the Minister or other people that a day would make a difference, but if you run out of money and cannot get credit a day is a very long time. The seriousness of the position was brought to light by Deputy Pattison and other Deputies who put down about 50 or 60 questions for oral answer here one day and highlighted the whole performance. The Minister had various explanations and excuses, but the fact is that people continue to suffer the loss of this benefit and the experience is nothing less than traumatic.
We Deputies who hold clinics in provincial towns know that these people come to us or to our houses or telephone us in desperation. It is nothing short of that and I can understand it. If they can get credit it is not so bad, but maybe some of these unfortunate people are not regarded as creditworthy through no fault of their own. Maybe they have a drink problem, maybe a big family, maybe they have run into debt and the grocer, the butcher or anybody else will not finance them for ten weeks and more while they wait for their social welfare benefit. These people come to Deputies only in desperation and when other attempts to get their benefits have failed. Certainly Senators and Deputies telephone the Department of Social Welfare only when they regard the matter as very urgent. I often think what an experience it must be for those unfortunate people who ring up the Department themselves and have to pay for the phone calls, are pushed about from one place to another and wait on their end of the phone for a long time. When it comes to telephoning the Department things have got serious and the people are in desperation.
I was told this morning that the telephone service of this section of the Department of Social Welfare was literally closed down and that anybody who rang up was told, "We are sorry. I am not allowed to talk to you or take messages from you. I cannot deal with you". That is the position at present. It is any wonder that we put down a private notice question and that I was concerned when I understood the Minister to say that everything would be all right in a few weeks? My goodness, what are these people going to do in the meantime? The least they are entitled to, instead of cutting of the telephone service in this section, is that additional lines would be installed so that they could be told the position, messages could be taken from them and the Minister could get in touch with the health boards and say, "Look after these people until we get order restored to the chaos which at present prevails in my Department". This is the second Department in modern times — by that I mean the last 12 months — where chaos has been created. The Department of the Environment housing section closed down altogether — doors, phones, the lot — and chaos has been prevailing there for the last 12 months. I repeat that the last straw today was to be told that, until further notice, no phones, no contact. As I have said, instead of cutting off the phones more phones should have been installed and these people should have been placated and messages taken from them, and the Minister should have communicated with the health boards.
I am told that this may be a matter for another question but I am told also that the system simply has broken down. When I said today that files were lost the Minister seemed to suggest that I did not know what I was talking about, but there is not much difference between files being lost and particulars of cases by the tens of thousands being blotted off tapes, and that is what I am told has happened. I am told that these things were taped and in some mysterious way the particulars had disappeared off the tapes, and that paying social welfare benefits in the Minister's Department at present is a hit and miss business. Hundreds and maybe thousands of people who are entitled to benefit are either not getting it at all or they have to wait for months while people who are not entitled to it might be paid. If that happened in any private concern or private business the person concerned would be out of business.
Deputies and Senators—I do not pretend to have any particular virtue myself — come into contact with these people week after week. You are not very long in public life until you realise why people work themselves into a state when their social welfare benefit or assistance does not arrive. They are like paupers until it arrives, and they are hungry until it arrives. I am asking the Minister in the name of my constituents who are thus affected, and in the name of all the social welfare beneficiaries to open up the telephone lines and to open up offices so that these people can be interviewed and have their position explained to them. They should have not to telephone Dublin. Until this chaotic state of affairs is remedied, the local health board should open up an emergency temporary office where people can give information and be attended to. If necessary, somebody from the health boards should go to Dublin every day, or every two days, and bring the complaints with them. The Minister should get this matter straightened out. I am giving way to Deputy Harte.
A very serious situation has developed. In addition to what Deputy Fitzpatrick said about the terrible hardship being inflicted on ordinary people who unfortunately find themselves out of work due to sickness, or redundancy, or being laid off for a temporary period, families who were used to spending incomes of £100 plus per week now find themeselves living on 50 per cent of that figure. They have to wait for eight, nine or ten weeks before they are paid.
In frustration and despair they appeal to Deputies saying: "For God's sake get on to the Department of Social Welfare. We have tried to telephone them dozens of times. When we get through to them we are sent from one section to another and we spend pounds and get no satisfaction." Until recently with a great deal of effort Deputies could communicate with the Department. Today I was told by the telephonist on the switchboard in the Department that the sections dealing with unemployment benefit, disability benefit and maternity benefit will not accept calls on their extensions. The Minister says this applies only to disability benefit.
Not unemployment benefit.
I asked today to be put through to the section dealing with unemployment benefit and I was told politely by the telephonist who answered the telephone that they would not accept calls. She explained politely to me that she did not work for the Department of Social Welfare but that she did work for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. The system has broken down completely. The staff cannot cope with the work. No advance preparation was made for the new computerisation system the Minister talks about. Newly recruited staff were brought in as an emergency measure. They are totally unfamiliar with the working of the Department. I am told on good authority that the staff are on the point of mutiny. They blame the Minister because he is not interested in social welfare. He is more interested in the Department of Health. Rightly or wrongly, these accusations are being made against the Minister. As the weeks and months go by I am beginning to think there is something in those accusations. The Minister is far more inclined to deal with the problems in the Department of Health than with the problems in the Department of Social Welfare. If that is so, it is time for the Taoiseach to take note of that fact. There are junior Ministers in other Departments, but there is no junior Minister in the Department of Social Welfare.
There is.
Could the Minister give me his name?
The Deputy should not be ridiculous. He knows the Minister of State, Deputy Hussey.
Deputy Hussey is not in charge of the Department of Social Welfare.
He works in that Department.
As I understand it, Deputy Hussey is responsible for children and young people. I am told that conditions in the Department of Social Welfare are appallingly bad. The staff are complaining because they are forced to work in overcrowded and cramped conditions. They are under-staffed. They are being accused by the general public of being inefficient. They are completely frustrated by the lack of interest the Minister is showing in their plight. The switchboards in the Department are out of date and cannot cope with the load. The blame for this rests with the Minister or the former Minister, now the Taoiseach.
When Deputy Haughey was an Opposition shadow Minister, every time he got up on his hind legs to talk about the Department of Social Welfare he criticised delays. There were always delays in that Department but they were never unreasonable as they are at the moment. As an Opposition spokesman Deputy Haughey pledged that, when Fianna Fáil got back into office, they would put an end to all the delays in that Department. I do not know who is responsible for the present chaos, whether the Minister inherited it or caused it by his lack of interest. Either the Taoiseach or the Minister is responsible. I am not terribly concerned about which of them is responsible.
There was no planning to update the system which the Minister now uses as an excuse for the delays. Deputy Fitzpatrick has given the Minister an idea about what could happen. There is no reason why the community welfare officers should not be able to pay out money to these unfortunate people. They did this work during the postal strike. This is just as serious an issue and as big a crisis as the postal strike was a year or so ago. If families have no money they cannot wait until tomorrow for the cheque. I appeal to the Minister to forget his vanity and get away from the flash bulbs, the cameras and the front pages of the daily newspapers. It is said that public relations is a very important part of public life but it is not the most important part of it. Doing your duty and your job is the most important part. The Minister has been described as a nice, pleasant, friendly person. I accept that.
The Deputy's time is up.
This country is full of pleasant personalities. What we want is action. The Minister should open up the telephone lines tomorrow morning.
This Private Notice Question refers to telephones and not the whole question of delays and so on. I would like to refer to the telephones and not to the whole question of delays. I appreciate if somebody wants to make a query about a delay. With regard to delays we had a long debate, which came near to leaving the Social Welfare Bill late. I am glad that, by taking specific action, we got that through in time and all payments will be made tomorrow. The new old age pension books, the widow's pension books and all the other books are in all the offices and I congratulate the staff for that. I note that the Opposition this afternoon and this evening did not refer to that, nor did the congratulate the staff on it.
I know the old age pensioner, the widow and the other recipients, who will have no problems once they get their books in time, appreciate the work done by the staff. I am sure they also appreciate the time, effort and attention which I gave to bringing in the two biggest increases ever given from any side of the House in the history of the State. I resent Deputy Harte's suggestion that I have no interest in Social Welfare and that I do not give time to it. I sit in the Department of Social Welfare every day and I am as long there as any other Minister in any office and probably longer than in most other cases because there is a heavy burden of administration there.
With regard to the questions raised, there is no ministerial direction whatsoever. I explained that in my statement and if Deputy Fitzpatrick had read it he would have seen it. We are talking about industrial action taken by some of the staff of my Department. I did not give any direction and I do not want the situation there at the moment.
(Interruptions.)
Will the Deputies please allow the Minister to reply?
I am opposed to that and I sought a compromise in relation to it. We undertook a variety of compromising measures. These are industrial relations matters. If this was in an industrial complex or in a business the Deputies here would allow the business to work out its industrial relations. They are not prepared to do that in this case. They jump on the bandwagon the very instant there is the scent of publicity.
Deputy Harte talks about publicity. The only publicity I ever get is by doing work. I do not go out looking for it. As far as the action is concerned there are talks under way at the moment. There will be meetings tomorrow in relation to it with the Civil Service Staff Associations. If the Deputies were so concerned about having telephone operations fully restored surely I would have thought they would be anxious to see that something was done, that talks were taking place and efforts being made to solve the situation. I might also tell the Deputies that I have done a lot of things to try to solve the situation. Overcrowding was mentioned. The executive of the staff associations know that we have got additional alternative accommodation in Gandon House to which the staff will be able to move in the very near future.
(Interruptions.)
Will Deputies please allow the Minister to reply?
There is overcrowding. Deputy Harte should try to be a little more respectful to the House. I did not take from the Deputy's time when he was speaking. We had discussions with the staff associations and we took every measure that was requested with the exception of cutting of the telephones because we are not anxious to do that. Although we have done that, and the work is running quite smoothly within the Department and the backlog is clearing quite well, the staff decided to take this limited from of industrial action.
I want to make quite clear what is happening. The public office are taking queries written on a prepared form and these are taken to be dealt with straight away. The Benefits Section are working and they see their approach as being in the public interest in assisting to get things completely back to normal. This is why they have requested that the Benefits Section would have freedom from telephone queries, and that queries would come in on paper and they would then be dealt with. They have made arrangements for dealing with them.
There are four telephone lines operating from my office and I am making provision to provide further lines to deal with the queries of Deputies and Senators. I do not visualise Deputies or Senators having any difficulty in communicating with the office and through the telephones there. It would be wrong to think that the problem is not being overcome. It is greatly reduced now. One could get the whole thing out of perspective. Under disability benefits 70,000 people receive payment each week and 46,000 of those people receive automatic payments on a monthly certificate. The Deputies are talking about the balance.
I explained to the House on previous occasions the problems which arose with regard to RSI numbers and other matters. Those have been reduced since because we have been advertising and have shown people how to use the RSI numbers. They are using them and getting used to them. It was a major change and relates to the updating the Deputies spoke about. A lot more needs to be done in regard to updating. The total computer capacity needs to be updated. There is a programme coming up in relation to that. Once that is done we will be in a better position because we will be able to have videos at a long distance from the centre. We cannot have them under the present system at any real distance from the centre. Once they can be put at a real distance from the centre we can operate with regional offices. We cannot operate like that until we have that type of system. I am very anxious that we get to that point.
Can the Minister not direct the health boards to pay out the money?
This is a different thing from talking about the telephones. The problem is not so serious now. I know the extent of the backlog and the problems which had to be dealt with. Those problems are greatly reduced. The delays which occurred a few weeks ago have been dealt with by the staff working week-ends and a lot of overtime, by bringing back additional staff to the Department who had experience of that section to help clear the backlog. We have taken a lot of measures to do that and the effect has been very good. That is why I was very disappointed the staff decided to take this action. We will continue with our discussions to try to find a solution. In the meantime, I assure the Deputies that my office will be available. I am doing everything I can to provide the communication Deputies need. I find they do not need as much communication as they did some time ago. I asked the chief executive officers of the health boards a few weeks ago to be more flexible with the provision of supplementary welfare when they find people with difficulties. They have given me an undertaking they will do this.
Will the Minister provide the money?
There is no problem about the money. The Deputy should not raise that question because that has not and is not a question. I made it quite clear to the health board officers that the money will be recouped to them.
About six months later.
I met the chief executive officers of every health board and they did not raise any question in that area. I ask the Deputies to co-operate in the present situation. We are doing our utmost and we have provided everything that can be provided. We will be able to move some of the staff into Gandon House in the near future. There are two floors provided there now. The staff and we have been seeking this for quite some time and we are very glad that we now have that facility. It will give us some extra space and will overcome some of the difficulties.
The staff say they want to be left free from telephones in the Benefits Section because the telephone was going right through to the person working on the benefits. They felt that was upsetting things. The telephones are still operating to my Department and I am trying to provide whatever service I can by taking their requests and having them dealt with as quickly as possible. I ask the Deputies to bear with us while we try to resolve the difficulties with the staff. It is an industrial relations situation.
The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 1 April 1981.