asked the Minister for Finance the level of the national debt at the end of (a) June 1977 and (b) December 1980; and if he will express the latter figure (i) per head of population and (ii) per PAYE taxpayer.
28.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - National Debt.
27.
asked the Minister for Finance the amount of the national debt due to budget deficits in 1978, 1979 and 1980; and the estimated amount for 1981.
I propose, with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle to take Questions Nos. 27 and 28 together.
The national debt is not computed at mid-year and therefore no figure is available for end-June 1977.
The final figure as at end-1980 is not yet available but is estimated at £7,900 million which is equivalent to (i) £2,305 per head of population and (ii) £10,533 per PAYE taxpayer.
The amount due to budget deficits for 1978, 1979 and 1980 was £1,466 million and it is estimated at £515 million for 1981.
Will the Minister state if the figure of almost £8,000 million includes debts guaranteed by the State and debts of semi-State bodies or is it just the central Government debt alone? If that is the case it is very much an underestimation of the true position.
The question referred to the national debt. The national debt is computed on the State debt.
Will the Minister state what is the figure for December 1977 if it is not available for June 1977?
The figure is £4,229 million.
A few minutes ago the Minister told the House the amount had not doubled during the period in question. Allowing for the amount incurred between June and December of a few hundred million pounds, is it not evident from the figures that the amount has doubled?
The Minister misled the House on that point.
No. The Deputy's arithmetic must not be good. The amount has not doubled.
The Minister gave a figure of £4,229 million at the end of December. Therefore, it must have been less than £4,000 million in June 1977 — perhaps of the order of £3,800 million or £3,900 million. The sum of £7,900 million is twice that amount. If the Minister cannot do that arithmetic he should not be in his job.
I have told the Deputy that his arithmetic is not good. I have not a figure in respect of end of June 1977 because no such figures were compiled. I was kind enough to give the Deputy the figure in respect of the end of 1977. The only figures compiled are in respect of year end. If he does his calculations again he will see he is not correct.
Will the Minister not agree that the figure for December 1976 was £3,400 million. He has told us that for the end of 1977 it was £4,200 million. Is it not correct to assume the figure for end June would have been around £3,700 million or £3,800 million? In reply to a parliamentary question some time ago, I was told it was estimated that in June 1977, when we left office, the figure was £3,700 million. In view of the figure of £4,200 million given by the Minister today, will he not agree that he deliberately misled this House when he told us the figure had not doubled? Further, will the Minister not admit that earlier he told us that the money borrowed was used for increased production but in the past five minutes he has told us that during the past three years a sum of £1,466 million was used to balance Fianna Fáil budgets?
On a matter of order, I wish to point out to the Deputy that he should not use the words "deliberately misled" in regard to the Minister.
I do not understand the state of his mind. I was going on the reply he gave the House.
Neither do I understand the state of the Deputy's mind.
According to the Minister's figures——
(Interruptions.)
Will the Minister please reply to Deputy L'Estrange?
I should like to tell the Deputy that I would prefer to check the figures rather than depend on his memory.
I will put a bet of £50 with the Minister than I am right. Will he take me on?
Will the Minister accept that, with the withdrawal of the words "deliberately misled", he incompetently misled the House in saying that the figure had not doubled when, in fact, it did double from about £3,800 million to £7,900 million in the period since June 1977?
Of course I do not accept what the Deputy has said. At times I wonder about this great figure genius. I have said that the only figures available are in respect of year end. I have given the Deputy the figure for year end 1977, and for year end 1980. If he does his sums he will find out I am right.
The remaining questions will appear on the Order Paper for Tuesday, 5 May 1981 unless Deputies request written replies.
Before business resumes, Sir, I ask you to give me a few seconds to say that I said something this morning during a heated exchange which I recognise was offensive to you. I was and am suspicious of and dissatisfied with the way in which questions are processed, but I recognise that I ought not to have expressed that dissatisfaction in the form of the crude imputation which I was guilty of, and I am sorry about it.
I accept that. I have allowed a question on private notice by Deputy Mitchell concerning Talbot Motors Ltd.