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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 3 Dec 1981

Vol. 331 No. 6

Supplementary Estimates, 1981. - Vote 30: Office of the Minister for Education.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £4,570,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1981, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education (including Institutions of Science and Art), for certain miscellaneous educational and cultural services and for payment of sundry grants-in-aid.

Tagaim i láthair inniu chun meastacháin fhorlíontacha a chur os comhair na Dála do cheithre cinn de na Vótaí Oideachais, mar atá: Vóta an Aire Oideachais; Vóta an Mheanoideachais; Vóta an Ghairmoideachais, agus Vóta an Árdoideachais.

Bhí os cionn £688 milliúin sna bunmheastacháin Oideachais imbliana, agus sé an t-iomlán breise atá á iarraidh agam leis na meastacháin fhorlíontacha seo ná £31,211,000. Ní gá dom a rá gurb é seo an soláthar iomlán is mó, i bhfad, a cuireadh ar fáil don oideachas ó Chiste an Stáit ariamh.

The original net estimates for the Votes for the Office of the Minister for Education, Secondary Education, Vocational Education and Higher Education for 1981 were: Vote 30: Office of the Minister for Education, £43,470,000; Vote 32: Secondary Education, £184,451,000; Vote 33: Vocational Education, £104,322,000; Vote 35: Higher Education, £69,697,000.

The following additional amounts are now required:

Vote 30: Office of the Minister for Education: a Supplementary Estimate of £4,670,000 making a total provision of £48,140,000 for this Vote.

Vote 32: Secondary Education: a Supplementary Estimate of £2,953,000 making a total provision of £187,404,000 for this Vote

Vote 33: Vocational Education: a Supplementary Estimate of £8,846,000 making a total provision of £113,168,000 for this Vote; and

Vote 35: Higher Education: a Supplementary Estimate of £14,742,000 making a total provision of £84,439,000 for this Vote.

The total net amount now sought for these Votes is £31,211,000. The additional money is required for two main reasons, first as a rescue package to meet the shortfall in a number of services arising from an inadequate provision in the original estimates and, second, to provide funds for the improvements which I have introduced since taking up office. Before informing the House of the details of the additional moneys required, I want to draw attention to a number of matters.

First, I want to emphasise the fact that an additional £31,211,000 is being sought for education through these supplementaries. I do so because when introducing recently a Private Members' motion, my predecessor in office stated that I should resign if I failed to get sufficient money from the Department of Finance. Such a suggestion ill becomes the person whose failure to get sufficient money in the January budget to fully meet the cost of the education services this year has made the introduction of so much of this Supplementary Estimate necessary. Because of that failure, it falls on me to bring these Supplementary Estimates before this House.

Despite the daunting financial and economic problems bequeathed by the former administration, I am happy to have succeeded in securing the sanction of the Minister for Finance, and the Government, to bring these Supplementary Estimates before the House for its approval. Facts are facts and the basic fact is that our educational services will benefit this year to the tune of an additional £31,211,000, through the decision of my Government. Despite the severe financial restraint which has to be exercised in all public expenditure, the Government agreed as one of their first decisions, to make education a special priority for investment. The present supplementaries are a tangible proof of that commitment.

As I have just stated there are two main reasons why it was necessary for me to bring these Supplementary Estimates before the House. The first main reason, of course, is the grossly inadequate provision in the original Estimate prepared by the former administration. The extent of the additional moneys required for some of the services, for example, the universities and other third level institutions under the aegis of the HEA, in Vote 35 and vocational education in Vote 33 is of such dimension that it is clear that there was serious under-provision. I am asking the House to approve my proposal to make an additional £8,905,000 available to the universities, and other designated institutions. This represents an increase in percentage terms of 15.8 per cent — sufficient proof of the under-financing in the original estimates. The position is so serious that without this money, the universities would not be able to meet the salary and wages bill before the end of the year. One can only reflect with wonder at the thinking behind a Government which, at the beginning of 1981, left the universities under-provided by as much as 15.8 per cent for this year. Indeed the situation which I found upon assuming office was so bad that two of the universities informed me that their bankers had indicated that they would refuse to honour the university's cheques from September, last.

This intolerable situation obviously could not have been allowed to happen and, consequently, following an urgent meeting which I had with the university heads, the Government agreed to my proposal that these rescue moneys should be designated, subject to the agreement of the Dáil. I should mention that at a subsequent meeting which I had with the university presidents, and where the frustration of the colleges at the hand-to-mouth situation which they had found themselves placed in became apparent. I proposed that the colleges themselves should prepare a four-year forward plan for their requirements. This they agreed to do and I understand that the work in this matter is progressing. It would be my hope that such plans, prepared realistically, will provide the framework whereby the Government and the universities can together chart the vitally necessary course to be followed over those four years and that the confidence which has now been restored through my Government's action in rescuing the colleges from the plight in which they had been placed can be developed upon.

A similar situation to that in which the universities found themselves also arose in the case of the vocational education committees, necessitating some £3,500,000 of the total of £6,650,000 now required in order to meet the needs of subhead A of Vote 33 — Grants to Vocational Education Committees. Again upon assuming office we found that serious underprovision for the pressing needs of vocational education had been made in the 1981 Estimates prepared by our predecessors. A number of the committees were running out of money and, indeed, were having difficulty in arranging sufficient bank overdraft accommodation to enable them to continue their operations.

Indeed, in the case of the City of Dublin Vocational Committee, operating 21 schools as well as the six colleges, which colleges I am happy to take this opportunity to officially recognise as being, collectively, the Dublin Institute of Technology, the situation became so serious that the committee had to hold a series of special meetings throughout the year to work out how to cope with the crisis created by the shortfall in the initial allocation. These meetings, the first of which was held in March of this year, were followed by extensive discussions with officials in the Department about the range of problems to be faced. The reality was that the committee had been given a non-pay allocation which was actually lower than that given in each year from 1978 on, this despite the considerable expansion which had taken place in the second level schools, third level colleges and in the adult education programme.

Immediately on coming into office I met with the chairman and CEO of that committee so as to ascertain the extent of their difficulties. It was immediately obvious that a sum in excess of £2,000,000 would be necessary if the City of Dublin VEC were to survive to the end of 1981. Similarly other VECs indicated sizeable shortfalls in their allocations for this financial year. Consequently, in the case of the vocational committees it became readily apparent that another rescue operation, similar to that mounted for the universities, was virtually necessary in this area also. It was for this reason that the Government agreed also that additional moneys should be sought for subhead A of Vote 33.

The third main area of under-financing which my Government inherited in the Department of Education falls under subhead D.3. of Vote 30, which is intended to finance the operation of the school transport scheme. Not only was this school transport vote grossly under-provided for but, in fact, the figure allocated by the previous Government of £20 million for 1981 was actually £2.4 million less than the amount actually spent in 1980. How anybody could have countenanced the suggestion that a figure reduced by £2.4 million would have financed the operation of the transport service for a full 12-month period is difficult to believe.

How, when we, then in Opposition, questioned the adequacy of the provision could have been given an assurance as to its sufficiency is virtually incredible.

The factual situation was, of course, that the moneys allocated at the beginning of 1981 would have enabled the school transport service to operate only until the end of October last. The only reason that there are school buses on the road this morning, is because again my Government had to agree to a bailing-out operation to the tune of £5.05 million so as to keep the buses on the road. The remaining £180,000 of the total £5,230,000 now sought under subhead D.3. of Vote 30 is for the purchase of a further 15 mini-buses. In all this the total amount sought represents an increase of 26.1 per cent compared with the original moneys provided.

So much for the failures and mistakes which were left to us to pick up the tabs for. I do not want to comment anymore about this unhappy episode in the financial allocation for educational services except to say that I trust it will never happen again.

Let us turn now to the positive improvements which have been introduced since the Government took office and in respect of which portion of this Supplementary Estimate is necessary. The higher education grants which had not been increased since 1979 were substantially increased from £600 to £1,000 at the maximum value. This unprecedented increase of 66? per cent takes effect from the present academic year. The maximum income limit for eligibility has been increased from £6,100 to £14,000 and for fee and maintenance grants it has been increased from £6,100 to £12,000 in the case of larger families. The income limit for fee and maintenance grants for smaller families has been increased to £8,000. The previous limit was £4,400. Fee grants will be payable in the case of smaller families with an income of up to £9,000 per annum. Persons whose family income derives from a holding of rateable valuation not exceeding £64 compared with £35 PLV previously for the purpose of the means test are eligible for maximum maintenance and lecture fee benefits while for a lower rate of grant the maximum rateable valuation has been raised from £50 to £96. Fee grants may be paid in the case of larger families with rateable valuations up to a maximum of £112. The previous maximum was £50.

The restriction on the number of third level scholarships awarded by vocational educational committees has been lifted. From the current academic year, there will no longer be a restriction on the number of scholarships to be awarded. The increased cost in the current year of these massively significant increases by any standards is estimated at £2.35 million. However, as payment is made retrospectively to the local authorities, in respect of the grants awarded by them, a sum of £1,084,000 only falls for payment this year in respect of grants to students in training colleges, and scholarships and ESF grants awarded by vocational educational committees.

The value of the ESF grant is being increased from £600 to £1,000. The estimated cost of this increase will be £450,000 in 1981 and £1.5 million in 1982. In making this decision I was conscious of the fact that had the ESF grant stood at its present amount, £600, more students would be influenced to opt for the grant or scholarship under the higher education grants and VEC scholarship scheme and therefore in some cases embark on an educational course for which they are academically less apt and which perhaps would lead to a qualification less urgently required by the economy. My decision likewise prevents a situation which would be seriously prejudicial to the size of enrolments in classes organised under the ESF scheme.

There has been much talk about unemployment among national teachers. What are the facts? Provision for the 300 extra posts required in order to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio in national schools was cut out of the original estimate by the former Government. But as we all know only too well by now, my predecessor in office some few days before the new Government came into office announced that the necessary improvements in the schedule for appointing teachers in national schools would take effect from the school year. His administration did not have to find the money, nor did they try.

At my request the Government agreed to the recruitment of approximately 300 additional teachers in the current school year for the purpose of reducing the pupil-teacher ratio in national schools. This decision was taken despite the serious state of the country's economy and in particular the alarming deficit in public expenditure on current account.

In addition, the Government agreed to exclude teachers from the embargo on additional recruitment in the public sector. This decision, one more proof of the Government's commitment to education, enables an additional 300 teachers to be recruited in national schools for the purpose of catering for the extra pupils entering national schools.

I should explain that the reason why a supplementary estimate to fund the payment of salaries to these teachers is not necessary is that the arbitrator's award for substantial increases in the allowances payable to principals, vice-principals and post holders was not submitted in time to enable these payments to be made in the current financial year, as well as other general readjustments within the Vote.

I am seeking the approval of the Dáil for an additional £300,000 under subhead A.3. of Vote 32 — Secondary Education — for the purpose of providing additional moneys for computers and for science and other equipment grants in secondary schools.

This represents an increase of 80 per cent over the provision in the original estimate and is a measure of my commitment to the development of computerisation and the provision of adequate science and other equipment in our post-primary schools. It is a massive increase by any standards and it will enable me to double the allocation for computers made available by the former administration for the secondary area. In this regard, I should like to inform the House that as a result of my decision to arrange on behalf of the post-primary schools for the bulk purchasing of the computers by my Department, I expect that the substantial discounts available will enable me to provide computers for many more schools than anticipated.

I have further decided to set aside £30,000 in subhead H.1. of Vote 32 — the running costs of Comprehensive and Community Schools — and £70,000 in subhead A. of Vote 33 — Grants to Vocational Education Committees — for the purchase of computers for comprehensive, community and vocational schools. The total amount which is being made available this year for this purpose therefore is £200,000.

The bulk purchase arrangement which I have just referred to has resulted in a most attractive package of micro-computer hardware, software, and back-up material now being offered to 105 post primary schools.

For the benefit of the House I should like to set out details of what will be supplied under the scheme. Each school will be supplied with a Basic Apple 2 System, a 16K language card, two disk drives, a 12 inch monitor and a printer. The system will be supported by an adequate supply of software and high quality documentation. An important aspect is that the micro will have a communications interface card which will provide a facility for communication with other computers. A pleasing feature of the provision of the micro-computers is that they are assembled in Cork by Irish labour. Moreover, the company supplying the printer has a manufacturing base in Drogheda. I am convinced of the urgent, indeed overdue, need to have such facilities and trained teachers available in all of our post primary schools.

The world is experiencing a technological revolution. We must, for the future of our country, be prepared to adapt and respond to that change. We must ensure that our young people are to the forefront in the development of what has become known as the information society. We must consequently be prepared to utilise the tools of that technological revolution to equip them to meet that challenge, not with fear or apprehension but in the knowledge that this country, already marketed by the IDA in the United States as "the Silicon Valley of Europe", can respond to the great opportunities which being to the forefront in this change can provide.

I regret that the task that was given to me was to commence the public funding of computers at the upper end of the post-primary level. At this stage we should be considering putting the basic tools of this technological revolution into the upper end of primary school education. It is my hope that within the lifetime of my ministry I shall be in a position to embark on that project. If we do not respond to computerisation or to the information society we are lost as a nation.

A sum of £200,000 is sought under subhead A.2. of Vote 32 — Secondary Education. The purpose of this requirement is to enable a substantially increased grant to be made to Protestant schools because of the special nature of their problems in providing education for Protestant pupils. In a full financial year the cost will be £500,000. I am satisfied that an injection of funds to this extent should solve most of the financial problems of the Protestant schools.

Under subhead H.2. of Vote 33 — Vocational Education — I am seeking the approval of the House for the provision of an additional £2,350,000 capital moneys for regional technical colleges. £2.0 million of this sum is sought for the purchase of a site for a new RTC in the Greater Dublin area. The total budget for capital works this year is £81.778 million — an increase of £2.478 million on the original estimate. This is an all-time record for capital expenditure in education.

Under subhead C. of Vote 32 — Secondary Education — and under subhead E. of Vote 33 — Vocational Education, I am seeking an additional £849,000. The bulk of this money is to meet the increased fees paid to examiners and superintendents of the public examinations arising from a recent arbitration award which the Government, despite the extremely difficult position of the public finances, agreed to honour.

I have decided that a national development plan for adult and continuing education should be drawn up. The purpose of the plan will be to chart the course of adult education over the next few years. The plan will formulate national adult education policies and identify adult education priorities. With a view to the production of the development plan, I have set up a commission which I expect will advise on the proper structures and mechanisms for the immediate implementation and efficient administration of the plan, which will represent a landmark in the development of adult education in this country.

The following details set out the situation in relation to the additional amounts required for the purpose of the individual Votes.

Vote 30: Office of the Minister for Education: An additional sum of £750,000 is required for subhead A1 to meet the cost this year of various awards granted under conciliation and arbitration. Pay awards also account for the increase of £375,000 in the provision for grants towards clerical assistance for national and secondary schools under subhead D.8. An extra £40,000 is required to meet an increase in the amount provided to voluntary organisations for grants towards the employment of development officers under subhead D.10.

Under subhead A.2. an extra £282,000 is being sought for travelling and incidental expenses. Of this, £150,000 is required to meet improved rates of travelling and subsistence and an increase in the level of travelling following on the appointment of 17 additional inspectors. The £124,000 extra required for the miscellaneous expenses of the Department under subhead A.2. 3 (II) is chiefly due to increased costs. £8,000 extra is sought for the Department's staff training and development programmes.

An extra £34,500 is required under subhead A.3. (1) to meet increases in the cost of the Department's computer facilities. This is offset by a saving of £10,500 in the other two sub-divisions of the subhead making a net additional requirement of £24,000 for subhead A.3.

£42,000 extra is needed under subhead B1 — International Activities — mainly to meet increased costs due to variations in international rates of exchange.

Improvements in the grants and scholarships schemes account for increases of £75,000 under subhead C.2. and £34,000 under subhead D.6.

I propose to make an additional £50,000 available under subhead D.4. for technological aids. This extra allocation will enable my Department to reconsider a number of applications for grants which could not be dealt with earlier in the year because the amount provided in the estimate was entirely inadequate.

£5,000 each is required for development schemes for the National Library and the National Museum under subhead E.4. and F.4. These are mostly additional pay costs.

A further £15,000 is required for subhead F.1. the grant-in-aid fund for the purchase of specimens for the National Museum to enable the museum to make an additional purchase which would otherwise almost certainly leave the country.

The extra £15,000 for subhead F.2. will enable the museum to replace obsolete equipment and to provide some additional new equipment. £10,000 will go towards the restoration of furniture in the Art and Industrial Division and the Folklife Division of the museum. This is made possible by a grant from the Charles E. Merrill Trust, Ithaca, New York, which is included in the increased appropriations-in-aid in this Supplementary Estimate.

An additional £77,400 is required to enable the Royal Irish Academy of Music to meet additional pay costs.

An additional £20,000 is being made available for subhead G.3. — the Grant-In-Aid Fund for Youth and Sports Organisations.

£38,000 extra is required under subhead G.4. for Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann to enable them to meet increases in pay of £11,000 and other costs of £27,000.

The total net additional sum required for the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Education is £4,570,000.

Vote 32: Secondary Education: Provision is included in the Supplementary Estimate for the Vote for Secondary Education under subhead A.3. for an extra £200,000 which, as I mentioned earlier, I have made available this year to Protestant schools in the free post primary education scheme. The total extra provision in the present school year is £500,000.

The extra £300,000 for subhead A3 the subhead for science and other equipment grants will enable my Department to deal with the large back-log of applications for grants that has built up as a result of inadequate funding of this scheme last year and this year. I have already referred to the £100,000 of the total amount available in the subhead which I have allocated for grants towards the provision of computers in secondary schools, quite apart from the extra moneys for these facilities in community and comprehensive schools.

An additional sum of £728,000 is being provided under subhead C., mainly to meet the increases in fees and travelling expenses to examiners and superintendents at the intermediate and leaving certificate examinations.

The redistribution of capital has enabled me to provide an additional £2,225,000 for comprehensive and community schools. The additional provision is required to meet expenditures under the ongoing programme related to the provision of community schools/ community colleges at places such as Ayrfield, Rathcoole, Willington, Ballyvolane, Killininny, Palmerston, Ballywaltrim, Rosmini, Carrigaline, and extension at Carndonagh as well as the provision of physical education halls at: Bishopstown, Birr, The Donahies, Old Bawn, Springfield and Cabinteely.

The total additional amount required for the vote for secondary education is £2,953,000.

Vote 33: Vocational Education: This Supplementary Estimate makes provision under subhead A for additional grants to vocational education committees to enable them to meet increased costs of salaries, wages and employers' social welfare contributions amounting to £2,200,000 and increases in running costs of £4,450,000. The additional amount required for running costs includes sums amounting to £950,000 for improvements in scholarships provided by vocational education committees and ESF grants tenable at third level institutions of education in line with the improvements in the higher education grants scheme to which I referred earlier.

Provision is also included under subhead H.1. for an extra £1,650,000 to meet similar costs for regional technical colleges — £1,300,000 for salaries et cetera and £350,000 for other expenses.

An additional £75,000 is required under subhead B. to meet extra pay costs amounting to £50,000 at colleges of home economics and improved rates of maintenance grants to students costing £25,000.

The extra £121,000 under subhead E is mainly required for the purpose of meeting the increases in fees to examiners and superintendents at the group certificate, technical schools and block release examinations which were recommended by the arbitrator.

An additional £2,350,000 is being provided under subhead H.2. This will enable the site for the new regional technical college at Carriglea Park to be purchased, a major rationalisation programme at Carlow RTC to be completed and a fabrication workshop at Waterford RTC and an engineering workshop at Sligo RTC to be provided.

The total additional amount required for the Vote for vocational education is £10,846,000. This amount is offset by additional receipts amounting to £2,000,000 from the European Social Fund leaving the net additional sum required at £8,846,000.

Vote 35: Higher Education: The provision of £10,000 for subhead A.1. is to meet additional pay costs.

The extra amount of £8,905,000 for subhead A.2. is required to meet salary and other inescapable non-pay running costs in National University; University College, Dublin; University College, Cork; University College, Galway; Maynooth College; Trinity College; Bord an Choláiste Náisiúnta Ealaíne is Deartha, National Council for Educational Awards, National Institute of Higher Education, Limerick, National Institute of Higher Education, Dublin, Royal Irish Academy and Thomond College of Education — a litany of disaster, a litany of underprovision right through all of the third level institutions for which sufficient provision was not made in the original Estimate. These costs must now be met and it falls to my Government to pick up the tab.

An additional sum of £6,168,000 is required for capital purposes under subhead A3. This extra money is required to meet the cost of on-going building projects in the universities, the National Institutes of Higher Education, Limerick and Dublin, the National College of Art and Design and Thomond College of Education.

An extra £7,000 is needed under subhead A5 for the Central Applications Office to meet additional costs incurred in reprocessing application forms following on the improvements to the grants for higher education. The sum of £114,000 being provided for the Dublin Dental Hospital under subhead B is for additional salary costs.

An extra £38,000 is required for the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies — £23,000 for pay and £15,000 for rent increases which had not been included in the original provision for subhead E. The total net additional sum required for the Vote for Higher Education is £14,742,000.

From the foregoing I hope it will be clear that these Supplementary Estimates seek to provide in two basic areas the substantial shortfall of the original Estimate requiring in the main some £26.497 million in rescue moneys, together with £4.714 millions necessary to implement the improvements introduced by the new Government.

There is also a supplementary provision amounting to £48,000 required for Vote 36, the National Gallery. The following additional amounts are required: Subhead A., Salaries: An additional £41,000 is required to meet the cost of Labour Court awards to attendants and professional staff to maintain parity with similar officers in the Museum and library. An extra £7,000 is required for subhead B to meet a shortfall in the original provision.

I commend the Supplementary Estimates to the House.

"Labour will give priority to primary education stressing systematic reduction of average class numbers. A scheme to provide free school books at primary level will be introduced." Fine Gael: "The reduction of class sizes in primary schools will be treated as a top priority." Joint programme: "The whole structure of education will be reformed. In this reform priority will be given to the improvement of primary education through the systematic reduction of average class numbers, provision of free school books and so forth."

I cannot understand how the Minister for Education has the audacity to come before the House, in the light of what I have said about the priorities in education, as outlined by the Labour Party and the Fine Gael Party and in the Joint Fine Gael-Labour document emanating from the Gaiety Theatre, without any comment on Vote 31. No official leaflet has been provided for Members of the House on Vote 31. Nevertheless, the Minister mentioned it, which is very strange behaviour indeed for a Minister with responsibility to the House and the country.

Priorities were mentioned by Labour and Fine Gael and by the joint statement to rest in the primary area, but we have no leaflet on Vote 31, which is Primary Education, despite the fact that for some time all thinking people, including a NESC report, have stated that the compulsory education period is the period which should command priority. I find this particularly strange, seeing that we had a very close examination made of the education budget in May-June, 1981. As the Department of Education always do, we were making preparations for Supplementary Estimates, which come up every year. The naivety of the Minister for Education to come in here and pretend to the House that Supplementary Estimates are a new thing, that he is doing something wonderful for education, is very hard to listen to. Perhaps when he has a little more experience he will not be surprised at himself for bringing in Supplementary Estimates.

I will be ashamed of myself.

Vote 31 in May-June indicated to me that there would be a demand for £2.5 million for salaries at the end of this year. Where has that money gone? Where will the Minister get that money? The total Vote 31, as assessed by us in May-June was that an extra sum of £3,216,000 would be required. The Minister has a serious responsibility to the House to let us know what has happened to that. Why has he not got Vote 31 on his agenda today despite the fact that he referred to it in the course of his speech? It is a serious dereliction of duty in an area where the Minister's activities are already suspect, as the House and the country know. This is simply an insult to an area in education which has been regarded as a priority area by all educationalists, all social thinkers and, indeed, by all the political parties — if we could believe what some of them say, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to do so.

In general, I put it to the House that the Department of Education have been noted for accurate budgeting during the years. With all the beating of drums the Minister for Education has done here today, with all the pom-pom we heard this morning, if the House does a simple calculation it will see that the Minister for Education is bringing in Supplementary Estimates which do not amount to 5 per cent of the education budget. We are being asked to laud the Minister for 5 per cent and we are being asked to condemn the previous Administration and me for being 5 per cent out. If the Minister for Education had been listening to his colleagues in the House in the very recent past, he would have heard two of them — one a Minister and one a Minister of State — indicating their praise for the budgeting of the Department of Education and the accuracy of it. The Minister who, like the squid, likes to spread the black ink around him does not choose to listen to his own colleagues or to examine the figures in the Book of Estimates and those before the House and make a comparison. I will yield to the Minister now if he will tell me what happened to that £2.5 million for salaries and the total of £3.216 million assessed as needed for the primary sector on 31 May of this year. I shall quote from an official document of the Minister for Finance which relates to the now notorious decision about the admission of children to primary schools:

Raising the age of entry to primary schools to the compulsory education age of six would save an estimated £19 million a year on teacher salaries alone when fully implemented. Further savings would arise on capitation grants, £1 million approximately, on school transport, on capital building, on teacher training and superannuation. A tentative initial saving of £1 million on teacher salaries in 1981 is suggested as a first step.

The House will remember what happened when the Minister for Education bought that one shortly after he took office. The document continues as follows:

The minimum school entry age was set at six under the School Attendance Act, 1926. Traditionally, schools have accepted children at the age of four under the non-statutory rules and regulations for national schools. There is a wide variation between countries on the age at which children start school and some educational experts argue that children under the age of at least six do not benefit from school-going. What can certainly be said is that there is little evidence to suggest that it is necessary that four-and five-year olds should be taught entirely by university graduates trained at State expense.

That gives the House an idea of the kind of package the Minister for Education bought and why he did not have Vote 31 on the agenda today.

On a point of order, it is normal to give the source and date of the document.

On a point of order, during the discussion regarding increasing the school entry age to four-and-a-half years, the Minister quoted ad nauseam from documents for which he did not give the appropriate references.

I quoted the date in each case.

I told the Chair I would yield to the Minister if he would tell us why Vote 31 is not before the House. Yet, he took the opportunity during his speech to refer to it. He devoted two or three paragraphs to the Vote. I refer the Chair to paragraph three, page nine.

We are still waiting to hear the date of the document.

It referred to the unemployment of national teachers which falls to be covered by Vote 31 in the Book of Estimates. I refer the Chair to Vote 31, subhead C. (1) which refers to the salaries of teachers in classification school and grants to capitation schools.

The Deputy has not given the source or date of the document from which he quoted.

I am asking the House and the country to view with great seriousness what has happened here. It is a disgrace and an insult to the House that a Vote was not brought before the House even though the Minister referred to it in his speech. He had the effrontery to include it in his speech.

I am asking Deputy Wilson if it would be possible to give the source of the quotation for the benefit of the House.

It was a document from the Department of Finance dated October 1980.

Who was in power then? Who was the Minister for Finance at that time?

We cannot have interruptions during this debate.

On a point of order, the Supplementary Estimates before the House are Votes Nos. 30, 32, 33, 35 and 36. Deputy Wilson has spoken almost exclusively on Vote 31, which matter is not before the House.

I will not be down-faced in this House by the Minister for Education on this point. I would have been excluded from speaking on it had the Minister excluded it from his speech. However, he referred to it.

I made a passing reference to it.

He did a smart aleck act. Vote No. 31 was not before the House but in the smart aleck fashion for which he has become noted he included it in his speech. He will not get away with it.

I would point out to the Minister that the Deputy is in order to refer to it.

The Minister should be asked to account for it in this House.

If the Deputy wishes to waste his time he can fire away.

I am not wasting my time. I am exposing the chicanery and the smart-aleck attitude of the Minister. He excluded Vote No. 31 quite deliberately but then referred to it in a propagandist way in the paragraph I mentioned.

The document the Deputy quoted is dated October 1980.

The officials in the Department of Finance have an obligation to the country. Their position is to advance the financial interest but the obligation of the Minister for Education is to defend education. The Minister should not buy any stories like that from officials who have no expertise in education. They may be prepared to say children do not benefit from education before the age of five or six years but, as this House was shown, it is generally agreed that the years from four to six are very important years in the educational development of a child. For that reason there was a strict obligation on the Minister for Education to reject a suggestion that children should not be admitted at the earlier age to primary schools. He should have rebutted any attempt to foist false educational arguments on this House or on the people.

The Minister tried his cheap little smart aleck business here today. He did not bring Vote 31 before the House. We do not know where the money is to come from which has to be provided for the payment of teachers' salaries and other payments in 1981. This is very serious. It is the business of the Minister to tell the House. It is the right and privilege of Members to know where this money is coming from, how it will be spent and how much it is. This we have not been told. The Minister should now stand up and tell us with regard to Vote 31 where the extra money is coming from for the payment of teachers' salaries. I shall yield to the Minister now if he does so.

We had better decide who is the Ceann Comhairle.

It is in the Minister's speech.

I thought you, Sir, were the Ceann Comhairle and not the Deputy.

I am referring the Deputy to the Minister's speech.

There is no explanation there of what is puzzling me with regard to this Vote.

The Deputy cannot blame the Chair for that.

At the end of May experienced officers in the Department of Education, whose accuracy in forecasting expenditure has been commended both inside and outside the House, indicated on Vote 31 that at 31 May — I have the document here — £2.5 million would be needed for the payment of teachers' salaries. No such Vote was brought before the House. What I am asking the Minister — I have offered to yield to him — is: where is the money? Why has he not brought Vote 31 before the House? Is he going to take Vote 31 into the House now? The 300 teachers I approved of and had Government consent to pay, their salary would be no more than £500,000 for the period September to Christmas. Where is the money in Vote 31? With the permission of the Chair, I ask the Minister to reply.

Would the Minister clarify the matter for the Deputy?

Vote 31 is not before the House. Out of courtesy to the House, because it was an integral part of the education service I made a passing reference to it which would explain to any Deputy interested in education what had been done within the subhead. I would expect that a Deputy who professes to have a knowledge and experience of education would understand what I was saying. It is not my responsibility, nor should it be the business of the House, if a particular Deputy has a difficulty in grasping basic economics.

What I am asking the Minister is: why is Vote 31 not before the House if extra money is needed for the payment of teachers' salaries and other miscellaneous expenses? It is a simple, blunt question and if I could get a simple, blunt answer it would suit me.

When I give the Deputy blunt answers he complains that I am rude.

Why is Vote 31 not before the House?

Will the Deputy please continue with his contribution?

This is very serious as far as the House is concerned.

The Minister has chosen not to answer the point at issue.

The Minister is showing total derision for education.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister prefers to wait to reply.

The Minister has an opportunity to tell us why Vote 31 is not before the House and where the money will come from which, at 31 May 1981, was seen to be necessary for Primary Education, Vote No. 31.

The Minister prefers to wait until he is due to reply on the Estimate and the Deputy will have to accept that.

The Minister said he would be prepared to give the answer if the Deputy gave leave and the Deputy did so.

I can do no more than——

Do not make a speech, Minister.

I can only repeat what I said in my opening remarks and to which you, Sir, have already drawn attention. This was the only reference I made to Vote 31 and it is a spurious device for people to spend 25 minutes talking on it. I should explain that the reason why a Supplementary Estimate is not necessary to fund payment of salaries to these teachers is because the arbitrators' award for a substantial increase in the allowances payable to principals, vice-principals and post-holders was not submitted in time to enable these payments to be made in the current financial year as well as other readjustments in the Vote. I cannot and do not want to comment on the financial management procedures engaged in by the previous Minister.

The fuzziness will not get the Minister off the hook. I have here a document dated 25 Meitheamh 1981, No. CO3, review of financial situation of the Votes of the Department of Education 1981, paragraph 2.

This House should not be turned into a slagging chamber.

Vote 1 is the Office of the Minister. Vote 31 is Primary Education. What is needed, as seen on 31 May 1981 under subhead C.1. — salaries, is £2.5 million. There is a total of £3.216 million. Where is the money? That is what I am asking and I am waiting for an answer. The Minister is wriggling and putting up a smokescreen. He is obscuring the issue with reference to arbitration. What I am asking is why there is not a Supplementary Estimate before the House. Is the Minister afraid to discuss primary education?

Why is Vote 31 not before the House when there was a known need for such on 31 May this year? I am still waiting, and I will wait patiently, for an answer from the Minister.

The Deputy is not able to do his sums, apart from anything else. He is now exposing the fact that he was not able to add up the money that was in the subhead on 31 May. For God's sake give the House a break and speak about what is before us.

A figure was made out by experienced officers in the Department of Education on 31 May as to what was required in Vote 31 and I am asking why there is no Supplementary Estimate before the House to deal with that. If this money is necessary, as assessed by officers of the Department on 31 May, where is the Minister getting the money? Is something being hidden from the House? Why did the Minister not bring in a Supplementary Estimate in the normal way? These are vital questions as far as the House and country are concerned. There is financial accountability and I want to know what has happened to Vote 31.

What I suspect is that the Minister was afraid to come into the House and discuss primary education seeing what has happened to it since he became Minister. He has in fact — I do not want to be interrupted by officials — already indicated that he is not giving any priority to primary education despite the Fine Gael statement and the Labour statement that primary education was to be given priority. He is not giving it such priority. Despite the fact that the NESC and other bodies concerned with education have stated that the primary and post-primary area up to leaving age should be given such priority, he has not done so. He has insulted the whole sector of primary education and he has insulted this House because he has concealed from it vital information of expenditure on Vote 31.

If Deputy Wilson wishes. to continue dealing with matters which are not before the House, that is a matter between himself and the Chair. His last remark is ill-founded and unfair and ought to be withdrawn.

I have been looking at the Minister's contribution and, while ordinarily nothing should be discussed here except what is itemised in the Supplementary Estimate, if the Minister decides to open the discussion the precedent here has been that other Members may do likewise.

Out of courtesy to the House, because it is the one subhead that is not before the House, I made a passing reference to explain why. The charge that I am deliberately concealing information from the House when there is no subhead or supplementary estimate in reference to that before the House is unfair and untrue.

How could there be a subhead for the area in question? Surely the Minister would not introduce a subhead for that area. His point of order becomes out of order.

I withdraw whatever the Minister——

I was about to indicate to Deputy Wilson that if he accused the Minister of misleading the House deliberately, maybe it was a choice of phrase that he, with his capacity for words and his sensitivity for Standing Orders might wish to put in another fashion.

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle with his toujours la politesse approach is asking me if I said the Minister deliberately misled the House. I withdraw any such implication, but I am still asking the Minister why he has not told the House where the money is to be got that was seen by experienced financial officers in his Department on 31 May was needed to pay teachers' salaries and other expenses and that amounted to £3.216 million. That is no small sum and the House is entitled to the information from the Minister. I said on several occasions that I would yield to the Minister in order to let him give this information; otherwise the suspicion must be there that the Minister deliberately avoided bringing in a Supplementary Estimate on Vote 31 and then took the opportunity in a very peculiar way of referring to Vote 31 in the body of his speech. I cannot understand how anybody could do that kind of thing unless he was trying in some way to escape the eye of the House. I put it that way rather than the way that has offended the Minister when I said he misled the House. It seems to me to be a device to get in a reference to Vote 31 without taking a Supplementary Estimate on Vote 31 before the House. There is a serious responsibility on the Minister here and now to tell the House how his money is being provided. To my knowledge there is no other way that it can be got than in something that has been voted by this House. If the Minister now wants to tell us what has happened in regard to the £3.216 million I, as I have offered on several occasions already, will yield to the Minister to enable him to do so.

This is an attempt to turn this House into——

In the Chair I have been careful not to treat a debate of this kind as I would a Committee Stage debate. I hope that the Minister when given the opportunity to reply will give to the Deputy the information which he seeks, but I would avoid a situation where the contributions here would develop into a question and answer session more appropriate to Committee Stage. The Deputy should be patient and wait for the Minister to give him the information which he seeks when he is replying to the debate.

Thank you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Would the Minister say whether the capital budget is involved in any way? I am puzzled as to how provision is to be made, a provision that was seen to be necessary as long ago as 31 May. I am entitled as spokesman for Education for my party to be puzzled and to get information from the Minister for the sake of the House and the country. As the House knows, we had a very substantial capital programme of £79.4 million and before I left office we succeeded in making a deal on Carriglea Park. Is there any connection between this Vote and the capital Vote? I am totally puzzled as to what the position is.

The Chair would ask Deputy Wilson to proceed with the establishing of his fears and doubts and to await the Minister's reply to the debate.

I will go on to have a look at Vote 30 as I have not been able to elicit information about Vote 31 which is not before the House and is before the House because of the way the Minister dealt with it. I see that the Minister is making——

Lest there be any misunderstanding, the Deputy is perfectly in order in referring to anything which the Minister mentioned in his speech. There is no doubt at all about that. I was endeavouring to convey to the Deputy that the Chair cannot allow the Minister to respond immediately to questions put to him by the Deputy.

Thank you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

I appreciate your views on the matter, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and I am glad that you see it that I am entitled to comment. Seeing that the comment was made already, I presume that both you and the House would agree that this House and the country are entitled to certain information and that I would be failing in my duty if I did not strive to elicit that information from the Minister. I have not succeeded in doing so yet, but perhaps we can live in hope.

I see by Vote 30 that the first saving is under subhead C.1. where £178,000 is saved on higher education grants. I know the system of funding higher education grants is peculiar in the sense that moneys are paid to the local authorities out of the Education Vote somewhat later, but it is very strange that there should be a saving of £178,000 on higher education grants, in view of the much vaunted increase in grants which the Minister has been talking about today. I complimented the Minister on raising higher education grants when he took office. I also indicated that I looked forward to him doubling the higher education grants as I did during my period as Minister for Education. He has not done this but we look forward to it.

I regret to see a saving in the Irish language field. There is a saving of £100,000 on publications in Irish and grants to colleges providing courses.

There is another very puzzling substantial saving under subhead D. 11. because, to my amazement, the Minister proposes to save £2,099,990 there. That vote carries the title "grants for the provision of recreational facilities". How can the Minister save over £2 million under subhead D.11. unless he has scrapped all the plans and programmes for the provision of recreational facilities. In my own constituency, there is a recreational centre being erected and funded at present. There was provision made in the budget for funding such centres but I thought, in a 20 page script, the Minister might have shown courtesy to the House with regard to this saving of £2,099,990, after all we had been hearing about under-provision for educational and recreational facilities. Here, as round as a hoop and plain as a pikestaff there is a saving of £2,099,990. How can this happen? Why did it happen? The Minister said he is underfinanced and that there were gross miscalculations, although anyone who can do a simple sum will see that the miscalculation is under 5 per cent.

The Minister said how bad we were at our calculations and boasted about what he is saving. The financial officers in the Department of Education are noted for their accuracy in estimation. In this huge sum for education they were less than 5 per cent out in their calculations. How can we afford to save £2,099,990? There is no explanation, I was in touch with an architect of one of these centres this morning and money has been disbursed. I do not know from what subhead that money has come. I await enlightenment from the Minister, either by way of explanation in the House or a statement elsewhere. The House will agree that over £2 million is a lot of money to be saving seeing that the previous Government and this House decided that the money would be available for the provision of recreational facilities.

Under Vote 32, building grants for secondary schools, there is a saving of £500,000. I cannot understand that. I have written to the Minister about one little school in a small town in North Longford that was refused sanction for a few extra metres of space. The Minister had £500,000 available which is not much money in the context of a huge budget for education, but it would mean an awful lot to Granard, Co. Longford. It is not in my constituency, I have no political interest in it, but I hope the Minister might soften his heart and provide grants for schools like that out of the money he is bent on saving.

I complimented the Minister on raising the higher education grants but I cannot understand why, if conditions were made more suitable, there is such a large saving. It may be because of the peculiar way they are funded. I told him I more than doubled the eligibility limits and grants and I wish him every success in dealing with his Government to achieve the same results while he is Minister.

If the Minister looks at documentation in his office to see what the fee increases were when I was increasing grants for third level educaion, he will see that they were much lower than the fee increases which were permitted this year. For part of that time there were single figure increases in fees and he will also know from his officials that the discussions which were going on between the Government, higher education authority and universities earlier this year was in the context of a 20 per cent increase in fees, not 30 per cent, to the students of those colleges. These are very important considerations when assessing the value of any extra money voted to the higher institutions, because there is an obligation on us to look at it from the point of view of the students concerned and the problems with which they have to cope.

While I was in office each year a Supplementary Estimate was necessary for the provision of school transport. Roughly £2 million per month was provided for this service and any shortage was made up in the normal way by way of a Supplementary Estimate. The Supplementary Estimate is a well-known animal in this House——

A wild animal.

——but from listening to the Minister for Education and other Ministers, one would not think so. But some Ministers, the Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism, Deputy Kelly, and Minister of State, Deputy D'Arcy, were honest enough to admit that the Education Estimates were accurate and that the Department of Education and myself should be recommended. The Minister for Education is in one of his moods and he is not going to admit that. As I said, the Supplementary Estimate is an animal which has been around this House for years.

A wild animal, but we are trying to tame him.

Less than 5 per cent is the total this Minister has to provide by way of Supplementary Estimate and he is making a big song and dance about it. Go bhfóire Dia orainn. A sum of £2 million per month was provided for school transport and the Minister is providing £2.5 million for this system. The school transport system is one of which Fianna Fáil are justly proud. A Fianna Fáil Government introduced this system and since it was introduced for the most part it was the Fianna Fáil Government who funded it and paid for it.

The Minister for Finance, when he was Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education, in order to prepare the way and soften the path for charges for school transport, set up a committee which duly obliged by recommending that charges should be made. That was resisted by me as Minister and by Deputy Barry as Minister. We kept as good a service as possible going. There are always problems about this system because Members of this House are continually approached about school transport: the bus does not go far enough or it goes too far or it should go to this or that crossroads. An honest and sincere effort has been made to run the service in accordance with the rules laid down and to try to provide a satisfactory service for everybody.

On Vote 32 we increased from £50 to £70 the grant in lieu of fees in 1978 and 1979. This year, 1981-82, the grant in lieu of fees is increased from £70 to £71. I am sure the Minister is conscious of the effect of the budget introduced by this Government earlier this year and of the pressures that were put on the primary and the post-primary schools, in particular those referred to in the Minister's speech under Vote 32. The Minister's predecessor has an honourable record in that regard. Perhaps the managerial authorities were not totally satisfied with what was given, but the fact that within a period of less than four years grants in lieu of fees were increased three times is something of which we can be proud and is a pointer to the Minister to take cognisance of increasing costs and to increase grants in lieu of fees. As Minister for Education, I increased capitation grants. That too is an area I recommend to the Minister.

Lord, I thank You, that I am not like the rest of men, a sinner.

I am sorry if I sound like that, because I do not mean to. I am simply pointing out the financial facts. If the Minister does not like that then he will have to lump it.

I was trying to be fair. The Deputy said the grants in lieu of fees were increased from £70 to £71. They were increased from £70 to £77. I just want to get the record straight, because I noticed you are having difficulty getting your sums right this morning.

The Minister should address me through the Chair. I will let you off; you are young. Bíonn gach tosnú lag.

When you have been in the Oireachtas as long as I have, you can make that comment.

The Chair appeals to the Minister to act in an appropriate manner.

It is better for the ulcer. The tuition grant was increased in 1978 and 1979 by £20, from £50 to £70. This £70 was increased to £77 from the commencement of the school year 1981-82. I hope that satisfies the Minister and puts the record straight.

I welcome the provision of computer courses. I want to recall the attention of the House to the launching of this programme, which was announced by me at the IVEA conference in Tralee on 13 May 1981 at 8 p.m. in the Mount Brandon Hotel. On that occasion I said that as computer studies is not just a subject but is also a technology it cannot credibly be handled in a chalk and talk environment and that to be real it must involve a hand's on experience. For that reason I proposed to introduce, with effect from September, a scheme under which micro-computers would be made available to all second-level schools. I said I was very happy to be in a position to make that announcement at that time and that the new scheme was further evidence, if such be needed, of the Government's commitment to ensuring that our young people would be fully prepared for what was well described as the second industrial revolution. I went on to say that for reasons which we all understood, we missed our share of the first industrial revolution and we were determined not to miss out on our share of the second.

I am glad the Minister has continued the scheme I launched at that time. When the budget was introduced the House will recall that I expressed a fear for certain areas and this was one of them. In the course of my contribution on the budget I mentioned the danger that the entry age to primary schools would be raised. I also mentioned the danger that my computer scheme and my distance learning scheme might come under the hammer. I am pleased that the Minister has committed himself to it and also that he is now in the process of providing both hardware and software interface for the schools.

I had intended that the micro-processors would be in all schools by September. We had made provision for training schemes during the summer for teachers and the Computer Society of Ireland also had training schemes prepared. I have had correspondence from the latter and they are not 100 per cent satisfied that the Department of Education kept them informed of those who had failed to get on the Department's courses. However, they have made a very good effort to familiarise people with the use of computers. It is not necessary to await the coming of an expert to each school for the apparatus to be useful to that school because there are various levels to be taken into account in dealing with them. Ordinary tactile familiarity with them is a help to pupils. To see them takes some of the mystique and fear out of them. Of course, there are several other levels of sophistication in dealing with them which can be developed right up to third level institutions.

I had the agreement of the Government for the full cost of those microprocessors for all the schools and there was a Government guarantee, by way of our old friend the Supplementary Estimate, that we would make the financial provision for them this year, 1981-82. I appeal to the Minister to ensure that those who by raffle, private subscription or begging bowl were pioneers in this field and have installed the machines already are not mulcted because they were pioneers, because they had the enterprise and were ahead of the Department of Education in getting them. The Minister should see to it that those who had already installed them — some of them are based in areas which cannot afford to spend much money — are grant-aided the same as those who are getting them for the first time. The processors have not been installed all that long and consequently there could be consideration of paying a grant ex-post factum to them. I understand some of them have been refused, but in my view that amounts to punishing enterprise.

With regard to Vote 33, I am glad that the bargain we made before we left office to purchase Carriglea Park is being followed through. The history of trying to find a site in the area of Blackrock, Dún Laoghaire and Bray was a long one. We had a serious problem and there was general agreement that there was a need for a regional technical college in that area. We had been looking at sites in Blackrock and Bray and, finally, at a bargain price, we succeeded in purchasing Carriglea Park. This is very important for the development of technological education in the area. Sites in Tallaght, Blanchardstown and the north of County Dublin are also being sought. This is a programme which I commend to the Minister and I hope it will progress. I am aware that he will have a problem with regard to sites but progress had been made in places other than Carriglea Park. I wish the Minister well with the development of that programme.

I wish the Minister well also with his initiative on adult education development. I modestly claim some credit for having launched the scheme of adult education organisers. That arose from a study of the Murphy Report on adult education, a very thorough and extensive report which is known to the House. During the week I attended a function in Cavan Vocational School where the adult education organiser, who is doing marvellous work, as are other adult education organisers throughout the country, made a presentation of the programme to the Minister for Forestry and Fisheries. It is a very impressive programme and I hope the new adult education committee will build on what has already started.

There was an attempt made to indicate to the House that the Minister's predecessor, and the last Government, in some way were neglectful of the third level area in education. I should like to tell the House the blunt facts about the financing of the Higher Education Authority in 1981. The Higher Education Authority met the former Taoiseach, and myself, to discuss their funding problems and so on and were assured by us that they had made their case. We listened very carefully to what they had to say and we told them that we are concerned with the financing of third level education. We told then also that we accepted the principle that they needed more money and we gave them a commitment to provide for that extra money. The total provision that we intended making was roughly in line with what the Minister has introduced today and about which he has done so much boasting. He has had to do something that I would not have had to do had I remained in office.

I repudiate the suggestion that there was any danger of the educational services running out of funds at any level had it not been for the change of Government In his heart the Minister knows that that was not so.

He does not have a heart.

I should like to have the opportunity of proving to Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn that she is wrong.

That story is all for the boys. The Minister might as well tell us the story of the three bears. I understand that at weekends matters are very difficult for the Minister in relation to putting the 1982 Book of Estimates together. However, we will wait and play it cool. I must emphasise again that what the Minister has introduced today represents less than 5 per cent of the budget, and that is what he is making a big story of.

Hear, hear.

Perhaps the idea of a four-year pre-budget exercise is good in the sense that it may help the higher education institutes, the universities and the other funded bodies. I wish the Minister the best of luck in that regard. There is no mention here of the fact that some of the money the Minister must provide for the Dublin Institute of Technology is on foot of a purchase that was made by his predecessor. Though I am not sensitive he might have given a little credit to me for that. I had made a purchase for the extension of Kevin Street College of Technology of which I was very proud. I had a very constructive and fruitful meeting with the chairman and with the Chief Educational Officer of the City of Dublin VEC. We met in one of their colleges and had lunch which was provided by the students. I have the appreciative letter that I received from the Chief Education Officer and I have some photographs also of the event. These will be among my souvenirs. I commend to the Minister the development of that sector. When he was on the county VEC I found him very helpful, and that is more than can be said for some of his colleagues, one of whom is now a Member of this House. The Minister was helpful to me on various occasions.

I welcome the increase in the higher education grants and I recommend to the Minister that he follow my example and double these grants. If he does this I shall have the privilege of complimenting him again in this House.

In my notes I have written: "where is Vote 31?" I have dealt with that already but I am still wondering where the Vote is. I have written here also that some of the Minister's colleagues were complimentary about the Book of Estimates and about the accuracy of the Department of Education in that regard. I have dealt with the question of the technological revolution and of the Minister having followed my decision to develop the technological process in post-primary schools; also, the provision of the micro-processor.

There is just one other matter, and this is one that was referred to also by the Minister. It concerns my pet project of distance study. In office I had considerable discussions with the National Institute of Higher Education on this matter. Contact had been made with the BBC in Northern Ireland and with the Open University people. I had committed myself to a course which could command the expertise of the adult education officers around the country and the use of the regional technical colleges, both of which are to the credit of Fianna Fáil when in Government. We had in mind the launching of a double course — a course in the familiarisation of people with the whole electronics area, a course which could be used as a foundation course for my other projects, which was to have a proper course in respect of which would be issued a national certificate in computers, such certificates to be designed, awarded and validated by the National Council for Education Awards. Added to that has been the proposal that a course in agricultural science be provided also.

I hope the Minister will ensure that the distance study project will be encouraged and that the number of worthwhile courses will be increased. RTE were invited to some of the meetings and I found them anxious and willing to play their part in this development. I found among them something that is going out of public life, going out of education perhaps, and that is enthusiasm. There was a quite palpable enthusiasm among the people I met when we were trying to develop this project. I hope it will be continued. I am pleased that the Minister is funding clerical assistance for national and secondary schools. I am pleased, too, that he is funding the employment of development officers, but I am very disappointed that a decision has been taken to stop this whole scheme of the provision of clerical assistance in schools and also to stop the appointment of development officers. I understand — the Minister will correct me if I am wrong — that these appointments have come under the ban introduced by the Minister for Finance earlier this year on new appointments.

The development in the comprehensive and community schools area is also welcome. I understand Deputy N. Andrews has a problem. I hope he will get an opportunity of raising the matter since he has been told that there has been a decision not to build in a particular area. Some of the developments mentioned by the Minister are well under way. Indeed I am sure Carrigaline must be finished. Ballywaltrim and Rosmini are very familiar to me and I know they are well under way already.

I am afraid I have not had enough time to deal adequately with the Supplementary Estimate but it was a great disappointment to me — I repeat this because I think it is important that I should repeat it — that the Minister deliberately avoided bringing in a Vote 31 Supplementary Estimate. I know there is need for it. The Minister's failure struck me as a device for avoiding accountability to the House for the Primary Education Vote. He mentioned the employment of teachers which, of course, would be paid for at about £500,000, if my memory is correct, for the remainder of 1981. He mentioned he had various reasons for not bringing in a Vote, reasons I have not found adequate, and I will not withdraw my strong condemnation of the Minister for his particular attitude.

The Vote for Education, as has been said, is a large one. I think it is the largest Vote which will come before the House. It has outstripped Health and Social Welfare and consequently it is one which deserves the greatest attention. It is one which the House is entitled to see and examine in full and to comment as to whether we are getting full value for the amount being spent.

I still have hopes that the Minister will withdraw his Circular 24 of 1981. He should get rid of it once and for all. It is a cancer on the educational body. It is doing harm and it will continue to do harm so long as it is there. The Minister should cut his losses, get rid of it and establish some kind of rapport with the people in the field in that most important area of education. If lipservice is a criterion it is the most important area. We have the metaphor of the foundation of the house trotted out quite regularly but, despite the Labour and Fine Gael commitment and the joint commitment in that area, there has been neglect. The Minister has avoided his responsibilities in that area and has not indicated to us how he will fund Vote 31.

Níl a huile le rá agam anois ach an méid seo. Bhí mise ag gníomhú sa Roinn sin ar feadh ceithre bliain. Chuireamar an t-airgead ar fáil dos na meastacháin agus chaitheamar níos mó airgid bliain i ndiaidh bliana, ardú i ndiaidh ardaithe, ar oideachas ná mar a chaitheadh romhainn. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil na meastacháin á gcur le chéile anois ag an Rialtas. Bíonn cruinnithe acu gach deireadh seachtaine ag cur na meastachán le chéile. Beidh mise ag fanacht agus beidh páirtí Fhianna Fáil ag fanacht go cúramach ar na meastacháin atá le teacht do bhliain 1982.

Má theipeann ar an Aire Oideachais, mar do theip ar cheana féin, i leith na mbunscoileanna — níl aon dabht im' aigne faoi sin, níl aon dabht in aigne na múinteoirí, níl aon dabht in aigne na dtuismitheoirí; do loic sé roimh an Roinn Airgeadais — má theipeanna air beidh air teacht roimh an Dáil agus beidh íde béil le fáil aige uainne ar an dtaobh seo agus ina dhiaidh sin, nuair a bhéas air dul roimh na daoine in oll-toghchán gheobhaidh sé an freagra is dual do phobal Ghaelach.

Ba mhaith liom a chur in iúl nach bhfuil ach 25 nóiméad eile fágtha san Meastachán seo.

(Limerick East): First of all, I would like to congratulate the Minister and the Minister of State on their appointments and on their decisiveness since they took over Education. Anyone with an interest in education obviously welcomes the fact that the ministry is now in charge of two young men prepared to take decisions.

In moving the Supplementary Estimates the Minister announced some of the decisions he has taken and the funds provided to implement them. In particular I welcome the changes in the higher education grants. When these were first introduced the intention was very simple. They were designed to provide an opportunity for higher education in the case of people whose family finances did not allow them to avail of higher education. There is no doubt that the levels of the grants provided has fallen far behind what they should be and many students with excellent academic records found it impossible to avail of places awarded to them in third level colleges. I welcome the fact that the Minister has now redressed the situation. The evidence of an improved situation was obvious in October when the colleges opened and vast numbers of students from lower income families were again able to go to university and third level colleges. I realise the review of the grant and scholarship systems is an on-going exercise. In that context I should like to make three points the Minister might take into consideration in future reviews. In a situation where one member of a family is already in college and the parents are paying for that undergraduate, there is a strong case to be made where a second member of that family applies for a grant for higher education. Obviously it is more difficult to keep two in third level education.

I would also like to point out an anomaly — it is minor on the national scene but major for those involved — where people whose incomes are calculated on the basis of agricultural holdings are assessed on a notional income. This has always been the practice and it is fair enough. But there are cases where, because of family circumstances, the holding is let and the actual income from the rent is lower than the assessment. In such cases I hold the rent income should be taken into account.

I would like to see some discretion given to local authorities who actually administer the schemes. All the details of the schemes are laid down by the Department of Education but it is the local authorities who administer them. They are refunded one year in retrospect. They take up the loan charges for these schemes. Some discretion should be given where there are late applications or people are reapplying for grants under change of means in family circumstances. It is another anomaly in that if someone applies for a grant in 1981 who did his or her leaving certificate in 1978-79 it is the means of the family in 1978-79 that are assessed. Changed family circumstances are sometimes looked at. I had a case recently where a young man decided to go to university. He is now married. He has one child. Instead of being assessed on his own existing circumstances he is assessed on the circumstances of his father in 1979. I welcome what the Minister has done. I do not mean to cavil because what I have raised are minor anomalies. There are thousands of students all over the country who are absolutely delighted with what the Minister has done for higher education and the higher education grants earlier this year.

The county councils are not able to pay for them.

(Limerick East): They are not all like Galway. In the case of school transport funds have been provided this morning. I welcome what has been done. It is a very important social programme although there are anomalies in the scheme. I want to draw attention to one which the Minister of State in a review of the scheme might have a look at. Eligibility is decided on the basis of distance from school. If one is three miles from a post-primary school one is eligible. In urban areas, especially in my constituency, I have had several examples of people being unable to gain admittance to a school near them, having to go to a second choice school more than three miles away and being refused free transport. It is decided on the basis of distance from the school nearest to one regardless of whether one can gain admission. I know the Minister of State is examining the programme and I would like that anomaly to be looked at. I believe it would be fairly easy to correct it. It is a scheme decided by the Department of Education and administered locally. Local officials do not have much discretion in the implementation of the scheme.

The most important decision the Minister made since he came to office is to provide 300 extra teachers in primary schools. Great work has been done in primary schools over the last few years. Since the abolition of the primary certificate and the introduction of the new curriculum a greater flexibility has been introduced into primary education which is really child centred now. We have very skilled teachers coming from the colleges of education, new educational methods being applied; we have greater freedom, greater flexibility, greater creativity in the classroom, which I welcome. The difficulties which arise in primary education now are physical in some schools because of inadequate classroom space or due to derelict buildings in some rural schools. I know the Minister will continue the building programme to eradicate this. A second major difficulty which arises is the size of classes. I welcome the decision to employ 300 extra teachers and reduce the pupil-teacher ratio to an all-time low. I am sure the Minister, realising the availability of teachers coming from the education colleges next year, will again make a reduction in the requirements for the appointment of teachers and that we will have another major decrease in the pupil-teacher ratio next September in the national schools.

The quality of education in the national schools is excellent. The new curriculum has produced a new generation of children who actually like going to school. They are happy, creative children. This is due to the new curriculum and to the teachers handling of it. If we could get the class sizes down even further tremendous progress could be made in this direction. I cannot say the same for curriculum development in post-primary education.

I welcome the Minister's speech to the Seanad on 29 October where he committed the Government to the establishment of an independent curriculum and examinations board. In the context of what he said this morning about the introduction of computers to schools and his commitment to curriculum reform in post-primary education I would like to comment briefly. In post-primary education the examinations system determines the curriculum and, frequently, determines the teaching methods. Attempts have been made in the past by dedicated teachers to reform the curriculum within the schools but they found themselves totally tied up in the examinations system. It was impossible to introduce new schemes right through the spectrum of post-primary education because parents would not simply accept the situation where their children were put outside the competitive examinations structure. This needed to be done to adequately reform the curriculum in post-primary schools under present circumstances.

Curriculum reform has been a kind of on-off situation. We have had the experience of transition years and we have the experience of the Irish studies programmes. Many teachers who were committed to curriculum reform in these areas found their work could not be validated by any national system. There was no provision made under the examinations system to validate the work done in the classrooms. The teachers were left, first of all, with the problem of working under inadequate guidelines, and secondly, with the problem of getting acceptance from the parents for new curriculum development schemes. That is why I welcome this independent curriculum and examinations board. It is impossible to introduce a curriculum board without an examinations board or an examinations board without a curriculum board. The curriculum does not determine the examination any more. The examination determines the curriculum. I would like, in particular, to suggest that the regidity of the leaving certificate be examined. Before children enter post-primary education, especially in middle class homes, ambitious parents are thinking in terms of points for university and grades for university. As a result, the teachers have no option but to teach along certain lines. The curriculum is laid down by the Department of Education. The content is invariably good in the different subject areas but, because of the particular examinations system the methodology is determined as well by the examinations system and very little individual choice is given within the schools.

The type of traditional post-primary education leading to a leaving certificate, where the most successful was the person who got the most honours and the highest grades, was successful for quite a number of students. It fulfilled the need, it provided the universities with an accurate system of assessment and it provided them with the most talented people in the community for entry to their courses. It also provided people for entry to a whole range of white collar jobs. At its best, it did all of these things but at its worst it was merely a whole mass of undigested fact passing from the notes of the teacher to the examination paper of the student without going through the minds of either. This is the difficulty in many situations, which has been magnified by the greater numbers who have continued to enter post-primary schools since the introduction of free education. There is now a whole range of talents coming into post-primary schools; there are people who literally cannot read on entry, and there are people who would probably pass their leaving certificate in the first year. The range is enormous but the whole range of students are put through the two gaps, the intermediate certificate and the leaving certificate. In many cases is does not suit their needs. I welcome the Minister's decision to set up an independent curriculum and examinations board, because it is absolutely necessary.

There is another development I would like to see in the schools. It is so easy in a post-primary situation to get locked into ones own discipline, to be so concerned with achievement in one's own subject area that the general aims of education are nobody's responsibility. Education, as defined by educationalists, happens rather by accident than design. It is not enough to leave it to the ethos of the school or the atmosphere of the school to inculcate the values which we consider to be so desirable when we make theoretic speeches on education. There must also be a systematic developed section of the curriculum which deals with personal development. I would like this independent curriculum board to look at all the pastoral care programmes which teachers had been attempting to put into operation in the schools. There is a great need among our post-primary students in the whole area of personal development. I hope this can be structured so that freedom is given to individual schools and individual teachers to adopt and adapt their own programmes for the personal development of their pupils so that the end will be that the excellent young students coming from primary schools can continue and graduate from secondary schools as mature young adults. I have hopes that the new board will do tremendous work in this area.

I welcome the Minister's announcement of the provision of computers to many schools. Any attempt to reform the curriculum must accept the fact that we are in the computer age. I was interested to see that the Minister intends to introduce computers not alone to post-primary schools but even to the higher classes in primary schools. In many cases the children will see computers for the first time.

I should like the Department of Education to get to the point of organising separate courses for computer studies. It was a bad decision by the previous administration to include computer studies as an option in the leaving certificate mathematics programme. That is to fall into the fallacy that only those who are good at maths can cope with computers. As a matter of fact, there is probably a greater inter-relationship between ability at languages and computing than there is with mathematics. Certainly mathematics has its input but there should be a separate discipline for computer studies if we are serious about it. It is not the manual skills or skills closely related to typing for the input of information into computers that we should be interested in. It is the whole software area that should be dealt with in schools, the programming and systems analysis. That is the kind of programme that should be developed, because it will provide an adequate base for a separate computing subject. I understand the Minister intends moving to this situation in the examination year 1983. I welcome this move.

I get upset when I hear people refer to education as one of the big spenders in government. There is no doubt that with half of the population under 26 years the dependency level is very high. An enormous proportion of the population is in school. Consequently, education must be one of the big spenders, but I worry when I hear education and social welfare mentioned in the same breath. I do not believe they are comparable. There is an attitude to education that it is one of the public sector areas that is consuming funds needed elsewhere. This has been articulated not so much in this House but by independent commentators. We must look at our first, second and third level institutions as an investment in the future. Even if one never had an interest in the welfare of students, one could make a strong economic argument for investing in the skills we will need to make us into a modern economy. We may have the land and the capital but we certainly need the labour, and the unskilled or semi-skilled labour of the past will not be adequate. A breakdown of unemployment statistics show that the sections hardest hit are the unskilled and the semi-skilled. Our attitude should be to invest in all levels of education, to provide more places in third level institutions so that adequate levels of skills can be provided for the young people whom we need to run the country and the economy. I would justify the expenditure on third level and higher education grants on those grounds alone. Not alone will the students who availed of the extra extra £9 million the Minister for Education used to bail out the universities last September benefit, but the whole population eventually will benefit. These are the people with the skills, with the necessary intelligence and the range of abilities to attract industrialists to this country.

Acting Chairman

I wish to remind the Deputy that the debate is scheduled to stop in five minutes' time at 1 p.m.

On a point of order, it should be noted the number of Fianna Fáil speakers who wished to speak in this debate but who have not been able to do so.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is preventing the speaker in possession from speaking his contribution.

I heard the Minister of State, Deputy Keating, telling Deputy Noonan to speak out the debate.

(Limerick East): I came into the debate 15 minutes ago.

On a point of order, the allegation by Deputy Andrews is completely unfounded. It does not come well from that side of the House in the wake of a Deputy who spoke for an hour-and-a-half. Further, will the Chair say if it is in order to have interruptions of a speaker who does not need my defence but who is making his maiden speech?

The first interruption was made by the Minister.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Noonan has approximately three minutes left and I call on him to continue his speech.

(Limerick East): The whole interruption was much ado about nothing, because I was concluding. I welcome the decisions of the Minister. I hope he will continue to be as decisive as he has been in the past. Education certainly needs decisiveness. I ask him to consider the points I raised. I am sure we will have several other opportunities of debating education in this House and outside.

An excellent maiden speech.

Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a dhéanamh le Deputy Noonan. I wish to congratulate him on his maiden speech and I concur with many of the views he expressed.

This is a serious debate. I regret that more time has not been afforded to us to bring to the attention of the House and the public some serious shortcomings regarding the Meastachán Forlíontacha. As Deputy Wilson mentioned, Supplementary Estimates are not new to this House. They from part and parcel of the tradition of the House but they need to have a balance. One of the strongest charges that can be made about Supplementary Estimate is that it lacks balance, and that is certainly the case here. Vote 31 is not included, the needs of primary education are disregarded and indeed that whole sector is referred to in a derisory way.

By his actions recently the Minister has curtailed and impeded the progress made by his predecessor in the primary sector of education particularly regarding pupil-teacher ratios. I refer in this instance to staff levels. There is a great need to promote this area of education. However, I am not too surprised at what has happened, particularly the recent decision to raise the entry age of children to national schools. In his speech defending that decision the Minister showed a total lack of understanding of the needs of the primary sector. With all due respect to the Minister might I suggest that it would be more desirable if he and the Minister of State exchanged places. I am not throwing bouquets at anyone, but we would be able to speak more constructively with one who has shown a feeling for education. Anyone who omits the primary sector lacks a basic feeling for education.

Acting Chairman

It is now 1 o'clock and the Deputy must conclude.

Arising from the VAT increase of 5 per cent on the purchase of books and the flood of applications to his Department, there is insensitivity towards the needs of parents. There is no mention of the Minister's intention to help out or offset the increases he imposed by way of VAT.

Acting Chairman

I must put the question.

The Minister's assertion that in the vocational sector the provision of micro-computers and services——

Acting Chairman

I cannot allow the Deputy to continue.

Why did the Minister not answer the charges laid before him?

Acting Chairman

The Deputy must end his contribution.

Vote put and agreed to.
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