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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 3 Jun 1982

Vol. 335 No. 5

Estimates, 1982. - Vote 49: Health.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £845,574,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1982, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Health (including Oifig an Ard-Chlaraitheora), and certain services administered by that Office, including grants to Health Boards, miscellaneous grants, and a grant-in-aid.

I had hoped to give a more comprehensive speech but because of the time limit, I have substantially cut my speech.

The gross non-capital provision in the Estimate amounts to £865.874 million. Allowing for appropriations-in-aid at £69.5 million the net non-capital grant provision is £796.374 million. The net non-capital grant provision represents an increase of about £67 million on the out-turn for 1981.

The capital provision included in the Estimate amounts to £49.2 million.

Vote 51 — increases in remuneration and pensions — contains £53.657 million in respect of the 1982 Exchequer liability arising from pay adjustments for health services personnel based on the proposals for an agreement on pay in the public service. The 1982 budget provisions for the health services will be covered in a Supplementary Estimate which will be introduced later in the year.

The Estimate which I have moved was prepared by my predecessor who approved of non-capital allocations for health agencies which were related to the level of grant provision in the Estimate.

When I assumed office I found that the reaction from health agencies to the levels of allocations approved had been distinctly unfavourable. There was general agreement among health boards that unless the allocations were increased serious consequences for the health services could not be avoided. It emerged that the overall allocation was about £48 million short of what was needed to maintain services at 1981 levels. The seriousness of the position was made clear at a meeting which I had with the chairman and chief executive officers of health boards on 2 April last. Among the more drastic measures which were considered to be necessary to contain expenditure within approved levels were the closure of hospital wards for protracted periods, significant reductions in numbers covered by medical cards, severe curtailment of vital community services such as home help services and meals on wheels and cutbacks in services for disadvantaged groups such as the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped. Unprecedented reductions in numbers employed would also have been required to secure the necessary savings.

Despite the financial constraints imposed by the difficult economic situation, the Government considered that it was necessary to provide extra funds to ensure that community based health services could at least be maintained at a reasonable level and that the measures which would undoubtedly be required to control expenditure on hospital services would not be such as to deprive people of essential hospital care. The Government, therefore, decided to provide an additional £28 million in the budget to ease the severe financial constraints in the health services. The effect of these extra funds has been to reduce the overall deficiency in the allocation for health services to about £20 million.

Despite the extra funds provided for health boards, voluntary hospitals and homes for mentally handicapped persons, there is still undoubtedly a gap between the increased allocation levels approved and estimated requirements. I know that difficulties are arising in bridging this gap. I must, however, emphasise that the Government have gone as far as they can go in providing extra funds for health services in the current year. It is now the responsibility of the health agencies to achieve the necessary economies. This will require the full support of all personnel, both in hospitals and in the community. But I must emphasise that the situation is now in my opinion manageable, if undoubtedly difficult. It represents a challenge, not an impossibility.

Expenditure on health services has risen rapidly in recent years. In 1977 the net non-capital cost amounted to £328 million. In the current year, taking account of increases in pay costs and the budget provisions for the health services, the cost will reach £978 million. In 1977 health services absorbed 6 per cent of GNP. This year the percentage will be about 8 per cent. Some of this can be accounted for by the increasing welfare dimensions in the form of better community-based health and personal social services. This is a development which we have promoted.

Other factors which have given rise to the increase in health costs over this period include extensions in entitlement to services, specific developments in the services, improvements in medical technology and the increasing demand for services, partly accounted for by a rising population.

The main reasons for the rising costs are, however, increases in pay and increases in the price of goods and services. Pay costs have increased from £197 million in 1977 to about £652 million in the current year. This is due to increases in the numbers of personnel employed in the health services, the application of national pay awards to health services staffs and, in particular, to costly special pay awards for many grades of health personnel settled under the established negotiating machinery. Pay costs now represent 64 per cent of overall expenditure on health services and about 70 per cent of expenditure in the acute hospital sector. It is clear, therefore, that measures to contain expenditure on health services must centre largely on the area of pay and personnel.

Unless the pay element in the cost of health services can be stabilised there is a real danger that the funds that can be provided by the Exchequer for our health services will not be sufficient to support the present work force, and that largescale disemployment and disruption of services will inevitably take place.

During the course of the past 12 months because of the present difficult economic situation the Government have found it necessary to restrain the creation of additional employment in the health services. These constraints apply not only to the health services but are of general application throughout the public service. In the present circumstances, therefore, it is of increasing importance to make the most effective use of our existing staff so as to enable essential improvements and developments to take place. It is important that there should be maximum flexibility in the deployment of personnel and posts in order to ensure that they are allocated to the best advantage.

It is clear, therefore, that over the next few years, funds required to effect essential improvements in the health services must largely come from savings on existing services. It is, therefore, imperative to research, as quickly as possible, how savings can be achieved and to take the necessary steps as soon as possible to realise these savings. I have, therefore, set up a special unit in my Department to explore ways and means of identifying areas where savings in cost can be achieved without detriment to the effectiveness of the services concerned.

One such area for close examination is the general hospital service. Institutional services account for 75 per cent of the expenditure on health services and about two-thirds of the institutional services costs relate to general hospitals. This year the average cost per patient in a general teaching hospital will amount to about £665 a week. It is noteworthy that in the period 1960 to 1980 the numbers admitted to acute general hospitals increased from 250,000 to 540,000 per annum. We must now try to concentrate the minds of all concerned on the steps required to stem the tide of hospital admissions, to ensure that only those who really need to be admitted are referred for in-patient care and to provide treatment to the maximum degree possible either at general practitioner level or on an out-patient or day care basis.

It is also essential to eliminate any unnecessary expenditure on hospital services for those who are admitted. The aim should be to provide services with the maximum degree of efficiency. Evaluation of efficiency depends largely on the development of better information systems regarding comparative costs in order that each hospital can assess its own performance by reference to the performance of other comparable hospitals.

A number of preliminary studies have already been undertaken by my Department and these have shown wide variations in certain areas of expenditure between hospitals in broadly similar categories, variations which cannot be readily explained. For example, the cost of drugs in one major hospital was 30 per cent greater than in another comparable hospital. These comparative costings will be of considerable value to the new research unit in probing further into this complex, but I hope rewarding, examination.

I have circulated to Deputies the most up-to-date volume of statistical information relevant to the health services. This information is set out by reference to the main health programmes. It will help Deputies to understand what is happening in each programme. I would like to refer here to some features of the vital and health statistics which are of particular relevance.

The percentage of the population in the dependant age groups — that is under 15 years of age or over 65 years of age — is important because it is from these age groups that the major demands are made on the health services. 41.3 per cent of the Irish population was in this category at the time of the 1979 population census. This, by international standards, is high. It is higher than the corresponding percentage for any other member state of the EEC.

The Irish birth rate continues to be, by far, the highest of the EEC member state. In 1980 the rate was 21.9 live births per 1,000 population, a total of 74,388 births. This is the highest annual number of births recorded in this century. Less than 1 per cent of these births now take place at home. It is very encouraging to report that infant mortality, which is accepted as one of the important indicators of the general state of health of a community, is continuing to decline in Ireland. As recently as 1960, the rate was 29.3 infant deaths per 1,000 live births. By 1970 this rate had fallen to 19.5. In 1980 it was down to 11.2.

I have already mentioned the continuing increase in the number of persons being admitted to the acute hospitals. In 1980 the number of admissions was about 540,000 or 158 admissions per 1,000 of the population. This is one of the areas which will be studied by the new research unit to see what scope there may be to control admissions to our very efficient but very costly hospitals.

In the psychiatric hospitals the number of patients in residence continues to decline. It has fallen from about 20,000 in 1963 to about 13,000 in 1981. On the other hand, the number of admissions to mental hospitals has increased from about 20,000 in 1969 to 27,000 in 1979. In recent years alcoholism has emerged as the major single cause of admission. In 1979 this condition accounted for 26.2 per cent of all admissions. These figures reflect greater activity in the treatment of the mentally ill and the strengthening of services in the community for their care and rehabilitation.

I would like to say a few words on the question of substance abuse. I am very conscious of the increasing incidence of alcohol and drug abuse among young people and I am taking immediate steps to alert and educate parents and young people to the dangers inherent for them in the whole area of substance abuse. I recently allocated an additional £¼ million to the Health Education Bureau to undertake an urgent national programme on substance abuse.

The bureau's programme will involve the training of teachers, doctors, pharmacists, career guidance counsellors, health board personnel, gardaí and clergy as drug educators. These will be available to act extensively throughout the community, and particularly in schools. This aspect of the programme is aimed primarily at parents, to inform them as to the nature and extent of the problem, to equip them to guide their children away from becoming involved with drugs and train them to react appropriately in organising treatment and support if their child has a drug problem.

Young people themselves must also be alerted, advised and educated outside the home as to the dangers of drug abuse. The school is the obvious place through which to impart information. To this end the Health Education Bureau, with the full support and co-operation of the Department of Education, are arranging for the preparation of educational materials on all forms of substance abuse for second level school children. This is being piloted in selected schools at present and will be extended to all schools from September 1982.

Education in relation to abuse of alcohol will be a component of this comprehensive programme for schools. There is also a special alcohol education programme for second level schools in the process of being designed at present by the bureau. The aim of the programme is to develop a responsible attitude in young people to the use of alcohol. It is expected to be in operation early next year.

In relation to the problem of glue sniffing, while glue is not a drug or a poison, it is a substance subject to abuse, which can become a health hazard. As such, it rates for inclusion among the substances subject to abuse for which preventive measures are being formulated by the Health Education Bureau. Although glue-sniffing is seen in the context of the drug problem generally, glue in itself is not a dangerous substance and would not, therefore, come within the scope of controls relating to such substance administered by other Departments, for example, explosives, toxic chemicals, and so on.

Glue is not a drug or a poison and therefore cannot be considered in the context of the Poisons Act or Misuse of Drugs Act. Similarly, it is not possible under those Acts to control other commonly available items which are occasionally reported as being the subject of abuse. The 1908 Children's Act prohibits the sale of cigarettes and intoxicating liquor to persons under 18 years. It is proposed to extend this provision in the new Children's Bill to apply to "such other substances or products as may be prescribed by the Minister from time to time". This will give a new facility and new enabling legislation to the Minister to control such materials as are considered necessary.

This year marks the tenth anniversary of the introduction of the choice-of-doctor scheme for medical card holders. The service provided for patients has, in general, been satisfactory. The abolition of the dispensary system after so many years will, I feel sure, be regarded as one of the most significant developments when the history of our health services comes to be written. There have been problems associated with the new service. Chief among those has been the question of cost associated with the visiting and prescribing rates, each of which has been substantially greater than the rates which were anticipated when the scheme was being negotiated. There is, therefore, need for constant monitoring of the scheme in the interests of all concerned.

The supply of drugs in the general medical service has been the subject of a report by Trident Management Consultants. I am currently engaged in a detailed examination of their recommendations, in preparation for consultation and discussion with the relevant interests.

Responding to the request of the medical profession I am establishing a working party to examine the position of general practitioners who are engaged in the general medical service. They have been pressing for a change in the terms of their contracts to include provision for superannuation and related benefits for contracting doctors. Such a radical change in their terms of service should not, in my view, be considered in isolation from their conditions generally and from the experience of the operation of the service over the past ten years. I expect that the working party will report with all possible speed and that their recommendations will provide a basis on which to secure the development not only of the general medical service but of general practice as a whole for the years ahead.

I should like to say something very briefly about the health capital programme. I am engaged in the preparation of a medium-term programme which will allow of the orderly achievement of developments which I am endeavouring to promote within a period of five or six years. The commitment of resources in this way will remove from the scene much of the aggravation hitherto associated with the stop-go approach which has bedevilled planning development in the past. My time in this debate is quite limited so I had an opportunity to cover only a number of the items currently in progress in the Department.

Eligibility for the health services has been raised from £8,500 to £9,500 from I June. I could say a good deal about the Voluntary Health Insurance Board and their relevance to workers and people in general. I should also like to have said something about infectious diseases. I am particularly concerned about the reappearance of polio due mainly to complacency about vaccination, and also the increased incidence of whooping cough. Work is also going on in the area of hygiene. One of the most outstanding features of this area is, that despite the very valuable work involving the hygiene awards being done by the Health Education Bureau, in 1981 there was a 60 per cent increase in notifications of infectious hepatitis over the previous year. This is due principally to poor food hygiene and poor personal hygiene. We are pursuing these matters vigorously at present. Because of the hygiene awards and the efforts of the health boards and the Health Education Bureau, there has been a tremendous improvement in standards, but we are quite concerned about this aspect at the moment.

I should like also to have referred at some length to the work of the Health Education Bureau which is becoming much more penetrating than perhaps it was in the past. The bureau concern themselves in particular with young people, children in school, and the different age groups. I am sure the work being done will be very effective. A great deal is happening in the community care services, in the area of home help and meals on wheels. I am particularly attached to these services and I am very anxious to see them being developed. In the extra £28 million being provided, we are ensuring that the home help service can continue at its present level. I am having an examination carried out into the further development of this service.

We have a whole series of health centres being developed throughout the country, some of which are at an advanced stage, and others are at various stages of planning. Ultimately, they will provide a very important basis within communities for the delivery of community-related and community-based health services.

I should like to have dwelt on the dental and ophthalmic services. The National Community Development Agency Bill is being debated in the House at present. It is covered in this debate having been transferred from the Social Welfare Estimate to the Health Estimate. The National Council for the Aged are working quite well. They have five committees, one dealing with income maintenance, one dealing with housing and institutional care, one dealing with community services, one dealing with the role of the elderly in society, and one dealing with the progress on the implementation of the recommendations in the Report of the Care of the Aged, published in 1968. We have already had a report from the National Council for the Aged which I set up last year, relating to day hospitals and their function within the services generally. I expect very worthwhile contributions from those committees on the areas they are studying.

I know the House has a considerable interest in the question of the care of children. I hope to make a statement very shortly on the outcome of the report on the O'Brien and Sutton cases. I hope also to announce shortly the setting up of the National Council for Children.

We could say a good deal about our psychiatric services. We have a very strong commitment to continually improving our psychiatric services, with particular reference to the development of community-based services. There is a great deal of activity in the area of mental handicap. I am particularly concerned about the services for the adult mentally handicapped. They will be given priority in the work of my Department. One of the difficulties is that the children's units are being filled, if you like, by adult mentally handicapped people who stay on there because of a lack of other facilities. This must be tackled as a major priority. By providing adult facilities, more facilities will be available for children.

We have a fairly substantial legislative programme to come before the House shortly. We have the National Community Development Agency Bill. We will have a Dentists' Bill in the autumn. We have a Nurses' Bill and a Children's Bill which I hope to have circulated relatively soon. We have poisons regulations which are very detailed and complex. We have the Health (Mental Services) Regulations. We have a Bill to provide for statutory registration for certain paramedical professions. The Green Paper on the handicapped will be published in the autumn.

In the time available to me I have gone briefly over some of the main activities of my Department. I look forward to hearing comments by Deputies and I recommend the Estimate to the House.

I understand the Minister's speech has been significantly abbreviated from the original. I regret that both in his selection of matters to consider in detail and what he has actually omitted the Minister created the impression of a Department which will essentially be static over the next twelve months. His speech contained very little other than an initial indication of figures and some information on numbers going in and out of various hospitals or institutions. In an addition — not circulated — to his speech he listed the areas in regard to which he gave a one-line indication that there were various reviews and developments. Consistently over the past month I have been struck by the sense that the Department of Health is alive with reports circulating, studies being done and so on which I must accept is a valid way of making decisions on progress, but very litle of substance is emerging. The overall picture is one of a static Department showing little development.

The Minister made much of the fact that on arriving in government he discovered that there was need for more money to be made available to the eight health boards. This is a normal feature of operating in the Department where a number of Supplementary Estimates is quite common. His predecessor had indicated a willingness to meet the health boards to discuss with them difficulties they might be having arising from the originally published Estimate. The Minister admitted that despite the level of increase the amounts finally allocated still left a short-fall over estimated expenditure and that this must be seen as a continuing situation in the health services where over the past three or four years the services have been suffering from these effective cuts.

The Minister indicated that one of the greatest difficulties in the context of constraint was the problem of the level of pay increases. He indicated there would have to be concentration on continuing the constraints on additional employment. I fully accept that in general there must be in the public service as much rationalisation as possible in relation to employment but I make a special appeal that this should not be a blanket situation and that the Minister and his officials should use all their ingenuity to rationalise in certain areas but to allow development in others. No other service I think has accepted that kind of blanket limitation. In Education there has been acceptance of the need for creating new teaching posts; in Justice, there has been acceptance of the need for new gardaí. Clearly, in the Department of Health there is a crying need of allocation of staff in new growth areas, particularly in the areas dental service, child care service, the mentally handicapped and community workers. The Minister should not stand over any blanket restriction on staff increases in his Department. To do so would leave intolerable gaps and would indicate that an already inadequate service will not see any development in the next 12 months.

The Minister also referred to the general principle which would be strongly supported by this side of the House of trying to move patients away from hospital treatment and to provide as much health care in the community as possible whether for people with long-term or short-term ailments. The Minister gave some statistics in which there was something of a contradiction on the level of births taking place at home which now amounts to 1 per cent and the resulting improvement in the infant mortality rate which is highly to be welcomed. The Minister should consider the trend in other countries where perhaps the best of both worlds is being achieved and where the length of stay of a mother having a child in hospital is reduced significantly and there is a corresponding improvement in the community-based services. In some cases the mother's stay in hospital may only be for the period of labour or, perhaps in a difficult birth, for 24 hours or so. The remainder of the care is provided in the home. That is of benefit emotionally to the mother and the family. People should at least have a choice. It would involve some spending in the developing of community services but there would be comparative overall savings by reducing the length of stay in hospital which is the most expensive form of health care at present.

The Minister referred to developments in regard to drugs and that is obviously to be recommended and supported. We are all concerned about this growing problem which cannot be tackled by any one Department alone. The commitment of the Minister to do all in his power in this regard and to educate is welcome. I ask the Minister to be very much aware that education can only be one element of the solution. In the communities where this problem exists I have found it is very much associated with the general effect of recession and depression and unemployment, lack of opportunity or hope among young people and among older people a tradition of abuse of drugs in our society passed on by parents. The Department have some responsibility in this in examining in many cases the habit of prescribing sedatives for adults and developing a dependency which is often passed on to children. This seems to be a cycle common to many classes but more evident in fairly deprived areas.

In areas in which I am familiar where the drug problem is becoming very serious — I know it is extending into all types of communities and all social and economic groupings — the solution they have found is not alone to make people aware that this is a dangerous problem but also that there is a necessity to create a more positive life value for children and families in this situation, along with education as to the dangers. I would ask the Minister to see that all his officials, the Health Education Bureau and all the resources available to him should be used to co-operate with other agencies in creating an environment and in producing youth development officers who will act to create a more positive life image, an alternative life style for families caught up in a cycle of drug abuse and lack of other resources and satisfactions of life. One immediately realises that this is associated with tackling wider problems in our society, the problem he has discussed in regard to the National Community Development Agency. Drug taking is associated with economic problems and the fact that economic problems seem to bite particularly at those groups who are already deprived and under-privileged. It is part of the two problems even in dealing with an Estimate for a specific Department, the need to get to grips with our basic economic ills and to look at how we create groups and sections of our society who are at a disadvantage from the moment of birth. Both of those problems must be tackled seriously if we are to come to terms with the surface expression of those deeper problems such as drug addiction.

The last five minutes of the Minister's speech consisted of a list of the items which are to be of greatest interest but they deserved greater attention in the presentation of his Estimate. The Minister referred to the Health capital programme and said he was deciding on orderly development over five years to end the stop-go situation. That seems to be an attempt to cover up the fact that there is no indication that there will be any significant commissioning of units this year. This is a matter of very serious concern, to which I will return later. The Minister referred to increased eligibility from £8,500 to £9,500 which will result in increased benefits to a large group of people who are within that income group. I wish to commend the fact that the income limit for eligibility to medical cards was also raised earlier in the year.

The Minister referred briefly to the dental service, that he was concerned about it. I hope the Minister will expand on this because this is an area where there are great inadequacies.

The Minister referred to the National Council for the Aged and the progress being made there. We welcome all progress on this specific problem. It was a question which needed to be raised in the general discussion of the National Community Development Agency and perhaps the Minister would expand as to how the National Council for the Aged and the proposed National Council for Children will fit in with the task of the National Community Development Agency. The servicing by the National Social Service Board of these councils was something which in many cases led to much criticism, where people felt these agencies needed a separate secretariat. With the expanded function of the National Social Service Board being subsumed into an expanded agency, whose primary function the Minister assured us yesterday was to combat poverty, the problems of the aged and of children parallel but in different ways the problem of poverty. Certainly the problems of the old who are poor and children who are poor are more serious than children in the same age group who are not poor.

The problem of the old goes beyond social and economic groups and is different. I do not see how it comfortably fits in at present with the National Community Development Agency. Perhaps the Minister would give some thought to possible future developments of small, individual and separate secretariats for each of these councils to enable them to perform their functions independently and in a clearer environment. I welcome the fact that the Minister will be making a statement shortly on the matters he mentioned, child battering cases and on the establishment of the National Council for Children. I agree that the areas of mental handicap and psychiatric services needed a good deal more. I further welcome his commitment that the Green Paper for the handicapped will be published in the autumn.

However, having responded in that way to the Minister's speech, I must say there are some outstanding omissions. The Minister referred to his proposed Children's Bill, but he has made no allocation for the implementation of any recommendations or desired developments arising from the task force report, part of which will be taking shape in the Children's Bill. This is in marked contrast to the decision of the previous Government and to the allocation made by them. The area of child care prevention must at all times be seen as the most important activity, rather than dealing with crises or trying to pick up the pieces when crises have occurred. In that area the allocation of moneys for children who are not yet in a crisis situation, allocation for either pre-schools, creche or day-care facilities, should be seen as a priority and as a release for parents and families who may be under stress.

The previous Government had committed £1 million on top of £400,000 already set aside for developments in the pre-school play group area. This money has disappeared. The Minister will remember in the recent by-election, when we both attended a public meeting, that a group of members from the Irish Pre-School Play Group Association greeted him with a song wondering where their million pounds had gone — the tune was of a song they sang in their play groups. This money would have been a massive boost to the activities which are providing so much relief and training for the mothers, especially in the Dublin area with which I am most familiar. It is a small amount of money in comparison with the Health Estimate, but it could have gone a very long way because play groups are inexpensive for the yield they produce. They are run essentially on a voluntary basis, the amount of support they need is quite small, but the benefits are tremendous. All this money need not have been allocated through the Department of Health but certain amounts had been considered to have been spent by this Department. It would have been a massive incentive to the whole play group movement and could have caused a further flourishing of these community and individual play groups. I regret this money is not available.

Added to that is the disappearance of the money set aside by the former Government in the Department of Health Estimate which they had prepared for the implementation of the task force report, which would have been over and above that general governmental commitment to providing that £1 million. Effectively, the child care services have been deprived of a massive source of funding by the Government which purports to put forward developments in this area. Nowhere in the Estimate is there an allocation to implement some of its fundings, particularly in the prevention area which is essential if the Children's Bill is to be effective. Therefore, I accuse the Minister and ask him to explain how he can possibly have starved this area of child care in this double fashion.

During the time of the previous Government there was a commitment that £200,000 would be made available to the battered wives' hostel in Dublin for the acquisition of new premises. I would like to be assured by the Minister that that money is in the Estimate and is available for that purpose. I hope too that the Minister will continue the intention of the previous Minister, which was to see an extension of developments in this area throughout the country. The situation is so bad it cannot wait for better times. Unless we provide centres which are reasonable and which provide an adequate service, we are forcing mothers and children to remain at the risk of violence and of permanent damage being done to their own lives and to their children's lives. That cannot be tolerated. We cannot allow continuation of substandard accommodation provided on an ad hoc basis by voluntary organisations whom we do not support adequately. We are condemning sections of our people to an atmosphere of violence, being threatened by psychological and physical injury. I should like the assurance of the Minister that money has been or will be made available for Dublin hostels and similar units throughout the country.

The Minister, in passing, referred to the need for planning in the matter of services for the handicapped. I hope this year will not pass by without the publication of the Green Paper on the services for the disabled. Last year, as we all know, was the Year of the Disabled and during the year there was an improvement in public understanding, in integration, and as a result physical changes were made to buildings and a great deal of voluntary money was put into the improvement of general conditions for the disabled. It is essential that the progress made last year be maintained. Now that the matter has gone from the public eye, I hope the Department will maintain the commitment given during that year so that progress will be continued.

The needs in this area affect nearly every Department, and therefore if progress is to be made there must be close liaison between the various Departments so that the existing services will be developed and that the handicapped will be more and more fully integrated so that their abilities and talents can be utilised. People working in this field voluntarily and professionally are concerned about provision for the disabled of their basic human rights to work and proper homes so that they will be able to live full lives.

Many people say that the efforts made during the Year of the Disabled were not adequate and that they are not being continued. The Department of Health are responsible for the welfare of those people. Therefore, I submit that the job quota for the handicapped in the public service should be improved to ensure that. I would suggest that the quota should be extended if the number of applicants warrant it. I have come across strange situations of people entering for examinations for the disabled in the civil service being turned down in the medical examination. I agree that the disabled must have the physical capacity to do the jobs for which they apply, but I would ask the Minister to ensure that the greatest possible flexibility will be allowed not only to ensure that the job quota is reached but over-reached, if at all possible.

The Department of the Environment made some advances to make public buildings accessible, but we need our planning laws designed to ensure that this becomes a necessary feature of our public buildings. The Department of Social Welfare must be taken to task because, though the level of grants was improved this year, there is need to improve the mobility allowance. For instance, disabled persons are frightened off from attending courses because of the fear that they will lose some benefits they have. This matter should be examined to ensure that handicapped people will not be discouraged from moving out to look for new jobs, apart from new sources of training. The imminent Green Paper should give a lead in all these matters and indicate the extent of Government commitment in the next number of years.

I must refer to the mentally handicapped because they are of great public concern and dissatisfaction. Even in the Year of the Disabled, the mentally handcapped were Cinderellas and it was only late in that year that adequate attention was given to their special problems. The notion favouring community-based services is being given lip service but this does not mean anything. All we are doing is giving people a choice of living in overcrowded, unsuitable hospital accommodation where still in some cases mentally handicapped people have to live with those suffering from severe psychiatric disorders or staying at home with families who are not supported by a sufficient staff of community-based nurses. Day care facilities are inadequate. It is not a choice at all, or it is one between the devil and the deep blue sea. We need urgently to ensure that only those who are acutely mentally handicapped should be put permanently into residential care. To make that exercise effective we must ensure that there will be proper levels of community support for their families and themselves. These matters should not be put in abeyance until economic conditions improve. Proper services in this area would mean savings now and later for the health services. More and more people should be moved out of long-term care.

We cannot tolerate another year without departmental action on the dental services. In our Programme for Government, 81/85, we were committed to the extension of optical and dental benefit to wives of insured workers. These have not been included this year and I hope the Minister will tell us the Government are committed to extending these benefits as soon as possible and that he will be meeting the dentists to work out the costings of such an extension so that it will become a reality soon.

Immediate action must be taken also in regard to the orthodontic services. Children, particularly those growing into adulthood, have no services available to them. The situation is in crisis. Day by day in the House Deputies, including myself, are being given replies that indicate there are no facilities at all available for children in the matter of orthodontic services. The excuse given is usually lack of staffing. This is something which cannot be excused. It is one area which must be served. Orthodontic treatment is only available to those who can afford it. It is an indictment of society if we have to say to those who cannot afford the treatment that they must go into adulthood with deformed mouths. The child care, mental health and dental services are areas where we cannot tolerate delay even in a recession. The Minister must ensure that there are developments in these areas in the immediate future. I should like him to give more details of his commitment in each of these areas.

Like Deputy Flaherty, I am hesitant as to how to address the Chair on this occasion. I do not think the Chair ever looked so well. By passing this estimate, which accounts for 8 per cent of our GNP, we are accepting that all is well in the health service at present.

As regards the health boards who will disperse the money we pass here today, are we satisfied that we are getting value for money? We had to wait until the end of the Minister's speech to hear that he was reviewing certain aspects of the whole health area. Recently Deputy Deasy put a question to the Minister regarding the operation of the health boards. I echo the reservations he expressed about the role of the local public representative on the boards. I have always advocated industrial democracy. However, in the health boards we have a situation where those employed by them control the destiny of the nation in health terms. They are in receipt of substantial sums of money from the board and decide the policy each health board should follow. In his review of the health service the Minister should give consideration to a greater input from local representatives. This is vital if there is to be proper supervision. I do not question the integrity of the officers on the boards. Indeed we have been very fortunate in that respect. We have men and women of integrity who carry out the wishes of the board. However, some decisions made leave a lot to be desired.

I question the practice and terms of contract which give private medical practitioners and consultants so many beddays per year in public hospitals. Much expensive equipment is provided by the State and many consultants have the use of it without making any contribution towards its upkeep and where necessary, replacement. That is a serious situation. I do not think anyone should have a right to use an appliance provided by taxpayers' money for their own ends and profit.

Deputy Flaherty mentioned her concern about the dental and ophthalmic services. I support what she said. The cause of greatest concern is in the psychiatric area. We have very few institutions which are custom built for this purpose. We have outdated buildings which do nothing to speed the recovery of the mentally ill. This area has always been the cinderella of the service. It is an out-rage that as elected representatives we should allow this to continue. In the southern health board area there is a great incidence of tuberculosis in these institutions. This is currently being examined and I am anxiously awaiting the outcome of the inquiries. I hope it will not be found that it was due to negligence on the part of the health board or the Department of Health. It is an area which no public representative should ignore. The fact that a disease which we had thought we had come to grips with has now come to the fore in health board institutions is a cause of grave concern.

There was little reference in the Minister's speech to voluntary hospitals which provide an invaluable service to the community. Boards are set up to liaise between statutory bodies and voluntary hospitals but as yet a means of providing adequate funds for these institutions has not been arrived at. The South Infirmary in Cork has been trying for many years to replace its outdated X-ray equipment but to date have not received sufficient funds for that purpose. There are rigid visiting hours in the hospitals. The Taoiseach, when Minister for Health, said he would introduce flexibility into visiting hours. The present Minister should give thought to this because it can create difficulties for people who have to travel long distances to visit someone.

The health boards operate a system of catchment areas. In the area of mental health I do not think it should be the case that because a person is from a certain area he should go to a certain hospital. I know it probably enables the health board to run more efficiently but there should be more flexibility. The system is alien to community care and the needs of the people. We should get rid of it. People come first and the health boards should be able to organise themselves in the interest of the community.

Deputy Flaherty mentioned the physically and mentally handicapped. This is an area which is left almost entirely to voluntary organisations. It is rather pathetic that parents of mentally handicapped children must come to public representatives asking them to help in some way to lighten their burden. Goodness knows, fate has laid its heavy hand on them and we should do everything possible to alleviate their burden.

Reference has been made to social problems arising from juvenile delinquency, drugs, glue-sniffing and other such activities springing up in our communities. There is greater need for co-operation between the prison service, the local authorities and, in particular, their housing departments from which a lot of these problems emanate. There is a need for the health and community welfare officers of this board to be involved in the planning stages of housing developments in conjunction with the local authorities. If this request were to be acceded to and the Minister were to take steps in that direction it would go a good way towards prevention of some of the problems encountered later due to bad planning.

We must ask also: have we made adequate provision for the young chronically ill? I do not think we have; I think they have been overlooked. This is something warranting urgent investigation in each health board area. There may be a mother, sister or brother with a young person chronically ill in the household. I do not think the ordinary individual is capable of coping with this problem which has imposed a very heavy burden on some families.

I asked during the term of the previous Government, and do so again, that some steps be taken in regard to the prescribed relative allowance because its terms of reference do not permit members of a family, if they so desire, to cater for the needs of their kith and kin. What is offered them is not acceptable. Insufficient funds are provided in this area. I would be less than honest if I did not say that I put this point to the Minister's predecessor. I would urge that the terms of reference for the prescribed relative allowance be redrawn to allow greater flexibility, to give people encouragement to remain at home and cater for those in need.

Towards the end of the Minister's remarks he referred to the question of cost associated with the visiting and prescribing rates, each of which he said has proved substantially greater than the rates anticipated when the scheme was being negotiated. I might refer to the number of visits, terms of contract with general practitioners and their entry into the General Medical Service. At present a young doctor, on qualification, must wait approximately seven years to qualify for entry into the General Medical Service unless he is taken into partnership. We have suffered from this rather cumbersome system. Lots of our very good, highly qualified doctors are forced to emigrate as a result of this system. As things stand, it is more or less a closed shop. This system is in need of urgent examination. We should provide an incentive to such young doctors because, at present, their families must maintain them while they endeavour to build up a private practice. Consequently, we lose quite a number of good young doctors who would be prepared to serve the community had they the means of supporting themselves in the period immediately following their qualification.

The cost of doctors' visits is in need of examination also. There should be devised a means by which an individual could be reimbursed such costs through tax allowances. A person with a moderate income who does not qualify for a medical card is caught for very considerable costs in respect of doctors' visits. This system has worked to the detriment of the community at large because lots of people simply cannot afford to call a doctor. If some system could be devised permitting such people to be reimbursed by way of tax allowance this would be helpful and indeed would constitute a form of preventive medicine in itself.

There is need also for additional geriatric beds throughout the country. The present system under which people are assessed and are allocated beds is far from satisfactory. In certain health board areas there are not sufficient geriatric beds, a chronic problem with which public representatives must deal daily. I am aware that the Minister is constrained in this respect by the amount of money available to him. I would ask him to give this matter serious consideration and priority, which again would constitute further movement towards the achievement of a better health service generally.

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Estimate with which we are dealing provides a sum of £845,574,000 for payment during the year ending 31 December next for the health services. That is a staggering sum. It is frightening to think that this House is being asked to dispose of that Estimate, together with four others, in a few hours today. The amount of money involved, between £750 million and £1,000 million, is a staggering sum being provided for a very worthwhile service. But it is not good enough that this House is being asked to scrutinise that Estimate, give it the all-clear and approve it today between the hours of 12.30 p.m. and 2.30 p.m. We have no alternative to so doing because if we do not, we shall be told that the services cannot be provided. Also we are dealing with the matter before going on holiday between the beginning of July and the month of October next. It is high time that the suggestion of Deputy John Bruton of this party was accepted and that the whole system of Estimates, of their presentation to this House and the manner in which we deal with them, be changed radically. Deputy John Bruton suggested that instead of leaving the Estimate to 31 December 1982 until now when the year is already half passed, that Estimate should have been presented to the House last September or thereabouts, dealt with then, when its consideration would have been meaningful and would have afforded Deputies an opportunity of scrutinising the services being provided for the ensuing year, as any ordinary, sensible businessman would do. Were I to continue on these lines I would be taking up the limited time available for dealing with this Estimate and making suggestions in regard thereto. I want to repeat that it is absurd, in the extreme, that the business of this country — and this is nothing new, it is a practice that has gone on year after year for the last 30 years — should be conducted on the basis that this House is asked to deal with an Estimate of this magnitude in a couple of hours on a Thursday afternoon. I hope the absurdity of this will sink into the heads of the Government and that Deputy John Bruton's excellent proposals will be given serious consideration and put into effect.

I want to deal briefly with three things, the problem of drugs, the problem of mentally and physically handicapped young people and a general hospital for Cavan town. The Minister today dealt, to some extent, with the problem of drugs. The world is afficted with a drug problem and we are not immune to it. In fact, it has become a real problem here and has to be dealt with. We must try to prevent people taking drugs. We must try to get after those who import drugs and distribute them for material gain. They are evil people and should be dealt with. We must try to educate people, particularly the young, about the terrible ill effects that the use and abuse of drugs can have on their health. We must try within our resources to provide health recreational facilities for young people to try to ensure they will not drift into the use and abuse of drugs.

I want to talk today about the curing of people who are already hooked on drugs. There is a sizeable number of those people in the country. This problem must be dealt with immediately. If we do not help those people to cure themselves, if we do not provide medical and therapeutic services for them they will simply go from bad to worse with fatal results. During the Dublin-West by-election campaign, which is referred to lightly now, with pleasure by some of us and with displeasure by others, I had a very interesting experience. Most people are inclined to refer to great experiences they had during the election campaign and lessons they learned. I was entrusted with the campaign in the Clonsilla area. During that period I visited the Coolmine Therapeutic Centre. My visit to this centre was an education. I found approximately 50 lovely young people from all walks of life with one common purpose, to get themselves off drugs and back into normal life. One boy about 18 years of age told me that as soon as he got out of there he would go back to school and equip himself for a better job.

I understand that the Coolmine Centre was founded by a man from my constituency, Lord Rossmore. I got the impression that a good job was being done there. All the young people came into a room, listened to a few of us and put some very awkward questions to us. We had approximately three-quarters of an hour of very useful discussion. As far as I know, the centre is run with voluntary help and some financial help from the Eastern Health Board. I believe that centre is great value for money. The boy who told me he was going back to school when he got out of Coolmine told me he was only six stone when he went in there. I want to compliment the founder, the staff and management of the Coolmine centre and, above all, I want to compliment the young people who have so much common sense and are so lucky to have taken the decision to go in there and avail of the facilities in the centre.

I understand that Coolmine is the only centre of this kind in the country. Why are there not more such centres? Why is there not one in Cork, Galway and the north-eastern area? I do not believe it would take much money to run those centres. I strongly recommend to the Minister that he explore the possibility of establishing similar centres throughout the country. There is not an elaborate building at Coolmine, there is no evidence of large expensive vehicles around the place but there is certainly evidence of common sense. There is evidence of value for money and, as far as I could ascertain, excellent results. The Minister should let it be known that the State would be prepared to grant-aid other centres like Coolmine throughout the country.

The next matter I want to deal with is the facilities for mentally and physically handicapped children. There is a real problem here. Deputies learn more by going and seeing what is being done or hearing what people are trying to do. A couple of nights ago I got an invitation to attend a meeting of a committee set up to deal with Down's syndrome, a mental and physical handicap which, I understand, is quite common throughout the country. I understand that one-third of the population who have an I.Q. of less than 50 per cent are afficted by the handicap known as Down's syndrome. Therefore, we are talking about a sizeable problem. I am told also on reliable authority that one child in every 400 born here is likely to be afficted with Down's syndrome to some extent. It is not known for definite what causes the problem though it results from a child being born with 47 chromosones instead of 46.

Again, I wish to compliment the committee whose meeting I attended in Cavan town. It would take too long to go through all the suggestions that were put forward but suffice it to say that this committee are doing a very good job. It is their ambition to try to educate these children as well as possible so that they will be better equipped to live as normal a life as possible. From my experience as a solicitor over a number of years I know the great concern and love that parents have for these handicapped children. When these parents are growing old they give a lot of thought to what will happen after their deaths to their handicapped children and in making wills such parents make as much provision as possible for these children. In the past these matters of handicap were kept within the family circle but now the whole problem is brought out into the open. I could spend half-an-hour talking about this topic and about the various forms of mental and physical handicap but I do not wish to hog the time of the House. The principle concern of those committees dealing with the mentally handicapped is to get more help from the Departments of Health and Education. In my constituency there is only one suitable school so far as the mentally and physically handicapped are concerned but I expect that comparatively speaking we are well off compared with other counties in which there is no such school. The suggestion has been made here today that when a school is being built an extra room or two should be added to allow for educational services for perhaps 20 handicapped children. This would provide adequate buildings and facilities for these young people. Even in County Cavan which has a special school there are children who must travel 35 miles to and from Cootehill to attend the school. That is not a satisfactory situation.

I am asking the Minister for Health to get full reports from committees such as the committee in my constituency of parents for children suffering from Down's syndrome. I appeal to the Minister to battle at the Cabinet table for liberal grants for these bodies. I am told, for example, that there is no specialist nurse available in my county for children aged between one and three; also that neither is there any physiotherapist, psychologist or occupational therapist available for children between the ages of three and five. I have suggested that there should be pre-schooling, a psychologist, an occupational therapist and a speech therapist for these children.

On a point of order, the Deputy said that he did not wish to hog the time of the House but it looks as if he is doing that now. I need just one minute.

The Chair has no control over the length of any contribution.

I appeal to the Deputy to give me the opportunity of making one or two points.

On a point of order, can this debate not continue after 3.30 p.m.?

It can continue after 3.30.

I presume it is simply a matter of courtesy in relation to the other Estimates to be taken but there is no strict limit on this Estimate debate.

(Cavan-Monaghan): I really should thank Deputy Sherlock for his intervention. It proves the point I made earlier about it being absurd to try to deal with four Estimates of this kind in a couple of hours today.

The Chair is not responsible for that arrangement. The Deputy would need to take up the question of alleged absurdity with the Whip of his party.

(Cavan-Monaghan): I am not casting any reflection on the Chair.

There is no point in alleging absurdity in respect of something that has been agreed between the Whips.

(Cavan-Monaghan): I am talking about the system. I have suggested that Deputy John Bruton's proposal that the whole system be changed and rationalised is highly desirable. It is not my intention to cast any reflection on the Chair.

There are many voluntary organisations and many caring parents who have brought these afflictions of handicap out into the open and who are prepared to avail of whatever specialist facilities are available. Any money spent in providing such services would be well spent.

I should now like to refer to the 321-bed general hospital which has been sanctioned for Cavan town. For 45 years we have been pressing to have that hospital built. I understand that at present the fourth stage, the preparation of the contractor's working drawings, has been completed and they are now with the Department. I accept that they were delivered to the Department only in the last month or so but I should like to ask the Minister to approve of those drawings with the minimum of delay so that we may proceed to the fifth stage, the preparation of the bill of quantities. It is important that that stage is dealt with with the minimum of delay. Following that the health board will be in a position to advertise for tenders.

Now that we have a new Government I should like to ask the Minister to renew the commitment that Cavan hospital will retain its priority and that a by-election or any other type of election will not alter its position on the list. I hope the Minister is in a position to tell the House that he will approve the fourth and fifth stages without delay. It is important that he authorises as soon as possible the advertising of the job so that the health board will be in a position to compile a short list of suitable contractors. I regret that I took a little longer than expected in my contribution but the intervention of Deputy Sherlock highlighted the fault that exists in the system we operate in this House. It ventilated the absurdity of trying to deal with an Estimate of this size in such a short space of time.

Deputy Sherlock rose.

I regret if the Chair confused the debate on this Estimate with an earlier contribution by Deputy Sherlock.

I should like to make a number of points on this Estimate which amounts to more than £845 million. It is hard to understand, when one considers the size of that Estimate, how the money to purchase necessary equipment for the hospital in Mallow has to be raised by voluntary subscription. Obviously, there is something radically wrong. It would be interesting if the Minister was in a position to tell the House the amount of money which the Southern Health Board pay annually for office accommodation. The figure I heard mentioned recently is colossal. It amounts to bad planning. Why is it that the health board do not build their own offices and avoid having to pay out this huge sum of money annually, particularly when health services are being cut in an effort to save money? It is not right that general hospitals are under-staffed at a time when qualified nurses are searching for jobs. I welcome the recent announcement by the Minister to grant full eligibility to pensioners, contributory and non-contributory. I should like to know if the dependants of such people will be entitled to full eligibility.

I understand that health services cost us 8 per cent of GNP while in England, where they have a full free comprehensive health service, it is a lot less. At one time I felt that if we got our workers to pay an extra 1 per cent full eligibility could be extended to another 40 per cent of our people. That would be worthwhile. There is no doubt that the fee per item system of payment to doctors and pharmacists is being abused. It should be changed to some form of capital grant or other payment to doctors and pharmacists. It must be recognised by now that there is widespread abuse of that system. That view was expressed by an official of the Southern Health Board recently following an investigation of some general practitioners in that area. A major job must be done in this respect. We must find out where the abuses are occurring and change the system. We must also encourage health boards to build their own offices rather than have them paying out huge sums of money annually in rent.

Some years ago when the old dispensary system was done away with some people felt it was the greatest thing that ever happened here but in my view it was the worst decision ever made. Under the old dispensary system a person could go to the local doctor and even if he did not have a medical card he could be given some medicines. At present many people who get prescriptions do not go to the chemist to get the medicine because they cannot afford it. That is not an exaggeration. A family with an income of £80 or £90 per week who are marginally over the qualifying income limit cannot afford to pay for medicines. The fact that they cannot get the medicines results in them having to go to hospital. I hope the Minister will look at the issues I have raised and deal with them in the course of his reply.

I should like to clarify the position in relation to this Estimate. May I assume that it will continue after Question Time?

I should like to make a few points in relation to the provision of health services. When one bears in mind the sum of money that is provided it is hard to understand why many areas are not catered for in the coming year. I shall confine my remarks to the provision of health services in the area with which I am most familiar, County Kerry. The delays which people in that area have to endure while waiting for medical attention, particularly where operations are necessary, are appalling. People must wait in terrible distress, in pain and suffering to themselves and their families, for a long time before they are called to hospital. Constituents of mine have had to wait up to three years to undergo major surgery. There is great inequality in the provision of medical services in that those who can pay for their treatment can get it on demand. I fail to understand how the Department can continue to allow that distinction because we should be treating all our citizens equally. Steps must be taken whereby people in need of medical attention will be provided with it on the basis of priority and not of their financial ability to pay. From the point of view of the availability of consultants prior to people undergoing even a stage of an operation, I know that in one area a man visits the town of Tralee one day a week and for a period of six or seven hours works under tremendous pressure.

Debate adjourned.
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