It is proposed to take item No. 5. By agreement there will be no Private Members' Business today. Also, by agreement, the Dáil will meet on Friday at 10.30 a.m. and will adjourn not later than 4.00 p.m. Business will be confined to Estimates for the Public Services. If a division is demanded on an Estimate the division will be postponed until 8.30 p.m. on the next Wednesday on which the Dáil sits until that hour.
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, as the Taoiseach is travelling to New York later today with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, I wonder if I might inquire whether he would think it appropriate before he goes to give some account to the house of our position on the Israeli invasion of the Lebanon and in particular how this is to be reconciled with the "traditional policy of neutrality" about which we heard so much last week?
Is that in order on the Order of Business?
I see a difficulty for the Taoiseach and the Minister, leaving as they are shortly. But the House would wish to get an updating of the position and assessment of the situation of the UN forces and the Irish contingent. I recognise it is something the Taoiseach will probably be discussing in New York. But, in view of the nature of the situation at present, to leave this over until next week would be a very unhappy situation for the House. Perhaps some consideration could be given to a statement being made on that even in the Taoiseach's absence. I see the difficulty about it but I feel that we ought not to leave it.
The difficulty is being compounded by the fact that the Minister for Foreign Affairs has to go to Bonn today. There is a meeting of the Foreign Ministers of the Community in Bonn today to discuss the situation in the Lebanon. So I would be in an even greater difficulty making a statement to the House before that meeting takes place in Bonn. I appreciate that the situation is a very tense one from our own point of view and from the point of view of the world at large and I would very much like to be in a position to give the House the latest information available to me about the situation. But, unfortunately, as Deputies know, I have to leave almost immediately for New York. I will certainly undertake that, as soon as possible on my return, I will make a statement to the House about the various issues. Unfortunately there are many of them surfacing at present. Indeed, perhaps I might be able to keep the leaders of the Opposition parties informed from New York of anything of significance that arises there.
I am grateful to the Taoiseach for that. We have to show understanding for his position. But, if the Minister is going to Bonn today, would it be possible for him to make a statement to the House tomorrow?
He is coming to New York from Bonn.
I understood that the Minister was going to New York but then I thought that Bonn was replacing that. Perhaps some other Minister could bring us up to date on the situation tomorrow because an awful lot can happen in a week?
The fact that the situation is changing so rapidly from moment to moment confronts us all. Any information I might give here this morning would probably be out of date this afternoon. So the best thing to do is to undertake to have the matter raised here in the House as soon as I return and to keep the Opposition party leaders informed of any significant developments.
With the position changing from minute to minute, as the Taoiseach says, may the House take it that, rapidly though it is changing, there is one fixed point on the political horizon, namely, our "traditional policy of neutrality"? All I want to discover from the Taoiseach is — and surely he can tell me this off the top of his head — are we neutral in the conflict between Israel and Lebanon? And, if not, why not? And in what respect do the considerations differ from the position which we were hearing about last week?
Both are situations of conflict and, as I have explained on many previous occasions, we believe that our best endeavours should be made through the UN and particularly now through our membership of the Security Council. In both of these areas of conflict the principles are the same and really I could summarise them by saying that we are endeavouring to bring the conflict to an end as soon as possible and in the most expeditious way available.
I hope they can both be reconciled with the people's policy, whatever that is, and in a manner which is comprehensible to free men. We want a foreign policy which free men can understand, not one fit only for sleeveens.
Do the Government propose to make their position on this issue clear and distinct in advance of any position that might be arrived at by way of the European political co-operation? If the answer is yes then surely, having regard to the reports received from our Defence Forces in South Lebanon plus the points made by our representative Mr. Dorr in the UN, the Government are able to announce their position on this matter independently of whatever common position is adopted in Bonn?
Our position is quite clear and had been made clear in the Security Council. We deplore, as trenchantly as we can, the invasion of Lebanon and we urge the withdrawal of the Israeli forces and we also condemn the civilian casualties which are taking place there.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Kelly, we cannot have a debate on it now. You have been given an assurance.
I have two points that the House should be concerned about. One is to have the assurance about the position of the Irish forces there and the UN forces generally and clarification of the position. I wonder whether we might consider, in consultation with the Whips, whether the Minister for Defence might be in a position to give factual information on this to the House, perhaps tomorrow?
I can give the Deputy that information at the moment. The position in regard to our forces there is that they are in no danger. As a Government statement yesterday explained, their mission there is a peace keeping one, not a peace enforcement one. They did not have any role to prevent an invasion, neither did they have the force to do so. They discharge their responsibilities effectively, and at the moment the Army authorities assure us there is no military danger to our forces there, but naturally we are keeping the situation under constant observation. We are also in touch with the Secretary-General and the other troop-supplying countries about it.
I was not seeking an instant statement from the Taoiseach because this is not the moment to go into detail. What we will be looking for is a statement saying what role has been played by our forces and the differences alleged to exist between how the Norwegian, Nepalese and Irish forces have treated the invasion, and as to the rationale of that. There are problems of public understanding here and a statement from the Minister of Defence might clarify the facts. We might look to the Whips to discuss that. Secondly, I would like to know whether there is a possibility of the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs committing us to make a further exercise in peace-keeping in the present very difficult and dubious conditions before the House meets again to have an opportunity to consider it? Could the Taoiseach give an assurance on those points?
I can assure the Deputy on that point.
Arising out of the Taoiseach's reply——
I cannot allow a debate on this matter.
This is purely on the Order of Business.
Because of the urgency of the matter we had to clarify it now but the House cannot pursue it.
If the Chair will bear with me, this is on the Order of Business. The Taoiseach indicated that next week he will make time available to make a statement on our Middle East policy. Would he consider allocating time to debate our policy in this area to give Members an opportunity to discuss it? Could he arrange to have resolutions which are relevant not only to the Middle East situation but generally and to which this country is a party circularised to Members? It is very unsatisfactory that we learn through the media of resolutions to which we are attaching the name of the State. This is a facility which should be accorded to Deputies on all sides of the House.
I do not wish to be disorderly, but with the permission of the Chair perhaps I could reply to both points. I would favour a debate rather than a simple statement and I agree that the circulars should be circulated. I will arrange to have that done.
Can the Taoiseach tell us when the motions to establish the EEC Joint Committee and the Joint Committee on State-Sponsored bodies will be taken?
Tomorrow.