Standing Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills: Motion.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. B. Ahern)

I move:

That, in pursuance of Standing Order No. 112 of the Standing Orders relative to Public Business, a Select Committee be appointed to be joined with a Select Committee of Seanad Éireann to constitute the Standing Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills;

That the Chairman of the Joint Committee shall have only one vote; and

That all questions in the Joint Committee shall be determined by a majority of votes of the members present and voting and in the event of there being an equality of votes the question shall be decided in the negative.

Mr. Barrett

(Dún Laoghaire): I hope that this committee will start their work very quickly because those of us who are new to public life on a national level agree, from reading through various Acts and Bills, that it is very difficult for the average man in the street to understand them. I believe a number of the old Social Welfare Acts were consolidated into a new Bill and there are a number of other areas where this should be done immediately. I ask the Minister of State to assure us that we will organise this committee as quickly as possible. Those of us who are members of local authorities come across legislation which could be consolidated. I welcome the formation of this committee and ask the Minister to assure us they will set about their duties as quickly as possible.

Mr. Taylor

The Labour Party welcome the formation of this committee and trusts they will produce some substantial improvements in the present legislative organisation. It is regrettable that our legislation has developed over the past few decades in a very hotch potch, ad hoc fashion and that the attention that needs to be given to developing our laws and legislation on a comprehensive basis has not been undertaken in any determined or realistic way. That makes for difficulties, not only for the legal practitioner but also for the ordinary men in the street who needs to have recourse to the law. There are numerous fields, such as landlord and tenant law, social welfare law and local Government planning and development law where there are a whole collection of Acts. Many of them are clearly amending measures and it would obviously be very desirable that they would be assembled and consolidated into one whole measure so that a person wanting to refer to the law on a particular subject could refer to one Act and be sure of finding an up to date, comprehensive statement of the law in that field. In the UK, this area is tackled with considerably more zeal and zest than we have undertaken.

It also highlights the need for the promotion, possibly through the Department of the Taoiseach or the Department of Justice, of simple text books giving the up to date position on Irish law. It is a very difficult matter to ascertain what the up to date legal position is. We have not had the production of text books on anything like the lines that have become available in other countries. Admittedly, there have been some improvements in the last five or seven years and some text books have been published, but that can only be regarded as a start. With this new committee operating and some worthwhile consolidation measures being brought before the Dáil, even if they do no more than declare the existing position in a comprehensive manner, it will be a valuable step forward.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. B. Ahern)

I should like to thank Deputies for their comments and to assure them that we will look into the points raised. As was pointed out, in the area of social welfare legislation — an area in which there are changes twice a year — there was only one consolidation measure since the foundation of the State. I was a member of the committee dealing with that matter and I saw how legislation could be brought into line to avoid anomalies and contradictions. It was a time-consuming operation but it was done in respect of an area in which there are many changes. It should be possible for Ministers to take up the matter and deal with it in an easier fashion in other Departments and I am sure this will be done by them.

I agree with Deputy Taylor who spoke about the need for updating legislation. At the end of a Dáil session Deputies get a booklet to say what Bills have been passed and giving an outline of them. However, the booklet does not give comprehensive information perhaps this will lead the way towards something that is dear to my heart, namely, that the whole Dáil system be updated. The problem is that there is so much legislation and so little time. It is most desirable that committees should be working actively and should be attended by Members. The committees already in existence find it difficult enough to get quorums and it is up to Members to attend the meetings. At the moment there are six Members present in the Dáil and we could just as well deal with this matter in a small room while the Dáil proceeded with other important Bills. We seem to conduct our discussions on legislation in a cumbersome and silly way. I hope that in the time I am a Member of this House we will deal with the matter in a more sensible way. We should adopt the procedure used in many other parliaments in Europe rather than operate in the present rather silly way.

I wish to thank Deputies for their co-operation in the matter and to assure them that the points they have raised will be examined.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 15 Jun 1982