asked the Minister for Finance whether, in the preparation of the economic plan at present being constructed, he intends to state specific targets for (a) the progressive reduction of the current budget deficit and the national debt over the next five years and (b) the control of numbers employed in the public service.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Economic Plan.
10.
(Clare): It would not be appropriate to anticipate the contents of the Government's economic plan at this stage. I can say, however, that it will set out the Government's intentions for the progressive reduction of the current budget deficit and for Exchequer borrowing in general. It will also indicate their intentions in relation to public expenditure and employment in the public service.
Naturally I would expect it would do these things, but the reason for my question was to ask whether the plan would state "specific targets". They were the central words in my question, by which I wished to elicit a commitment from the Government that targets, in numbers of millions as appropriate, or hundreds of thousands in the case of the public service, would be expressed so that the public and the Dáil will be able to check the progress of this or any Government towards achievement of the plan year by year. Will there be specific numbered targets of that kind in these two areas? It is no use saying that we intend to phase this out or keep an eye on that. We have been hearing that all our lives. Will there be specific numbered targets, that will enable us to say that this year they are on target, last year they were not, or vice versa?
(Clare): On the question of the Government indicating targets, the Government recognise the value of targets in clarifying the objectives and measures required to achieve them. International developments can offset significantly the performance of the Irish economy and must be allowed for in setting planned objectives. Also on the question of the effects of domestic developments you cannot determine targets in any way accurately. However, the Government would favour including medium-term public finance targets in the plan to the extent that these would be meaningful and helpful to the future development of the economy. The difficulty of setting targets must be emphasised because of the changing economic situation.
Everybody acknowledges that and unforseen things happen, but would the Minister acknowledge that in order for the plan to be of any use — unlike the unnumbered plans which have come and gone and which no one now remembers — to this House, the public, economists in the press or the universities or research institutes outside, it would need to show what is intended so far as it can be done? Nobody expects to have planning-on-the-nail achievement of targets three years from now, but will it not need to show at least approximately targets measured in millions or billions of pounds or what we are now dealing in, megabillions, since we now have a national debt of £10,000 million for the first time under the ministry of Deputy MacSharry? Would he not agree that some form of target, however tentative and however subject to the obvious qualification that we cannot forsee conditions in the future, ought to be in this plan, because otherwise it will not differ in any useful respect from the seven or eight such plans that I have seen come and go in this House in the time that I have been here?
(Clare): I did say that the Government would favour medium-term targets regarding public finances.
Regarding my suggestion of some weeks ago that there might be merit in co-operation between the Government and Opposition in agreeing on the basic assumptions that would underlie the plan so that we might subsequently debate more rationally the merits of the Government's proposals, are the Government prepared to have consultations on these basic assumptions with regard, for example, to the rate of growth of output in the OECD countries, in world trade and of our own GNP?
(Clare): All I can say to the Deputy on that is that I will remind the Government again of what he has said. His suggestion may be of benefit to all of us.
Would the Minister accept that the previous Government had a four-year target for the elimination of the current budget deficit and can he say if his Government in their plan will have a target also for a set number of years?
(Clare): I am sure the Deputy will agree that it is somewhat premature to seek details of the plan.
That does not prevent some Ministers from making speeches about it.
We cannot have a debate on this matter.
(Clare): Perhaps the Deputy will give details of what he has in mind.
They are in the newspapers.
Perhaps, then, the Minister would ask his colleagues to stop making these kind of speeches, speeches which are designed to make the headlines.
(Clare): The Deputy will be given details of the plan when it has been put through the Government and is ready for publication. The details which have appeared in the newspapers were not in accordance with the facts.