Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 2 Jun 1983

Vol. 343 No. 3

Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies: Motion.

Minister for Industry and Energy (Mr. J. Bruton)

I move:

1. That it is expedient that a Joint Committee (which shall be called the Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies) consisting of 7 members of the Dáil and 4 members of the Seanad (none of whom shall be a member of the Government or a Minister of State) be appointed to examine the Reports and Accounts and overall operational results of State-sponsored bodies referred to in the Schedule hereto and to report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas and to make recommendations where appropriate.

2. That, after consultation with the Joint Committee, the Minister for the Public Service with the agreement of the Minister for Finance may include from time to time the names of further State-sponsored Bodies in the Schedule and, with the consent of the Joint Committee and the Minister for Finance, may delete from the Schedule the names of any bodies.

3. That, if so requested by a Statesponsored Body, the Joint Committee shall refrain from publishing confidential information regarding the Body's activities and plans.

4. That the Joint Committee shall have power to send for persons, papers and records and, subject to the consent of the Minister for the Public Service, to engage the services of persons with specialist or technical knowledge to assist it for the purpose of particular enquiries.

5. That the Joint Committee, previous to the commencement of business, shall elect one of its members to be Chairman, who shall have only one vote.

6. That all questions in the Joint Committee shall be determined by a majority of votes of the members present and voting and in the event of there being an equality of votes the question shall be decided in the negative.

7. That the Joint Committee shall have power to print and publish from time to time minutes of evidence taken before it together with such related documents as it thinks fit.

8. That every report which the Joint Committee proposes to make shall on adoption by the Joint Committee be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas forthwith whereupon the Joint Committee shall be empowered to print and publish such report together with such related documents as it thinks fit.

9. That 4 members of the Joint Committee shall form a Quorum of whom at least 1 shall be a member of Dáil Éireann and at least 1 shall be a member of Seanad Éireann.

Schedule

Aer Lingus, Teoranta

Aer Línte Éireann, Teoranta

Aer Rianta, Teoranta

The Agricultural Credit Corporation Limited

Arramara Teoranta

Bord na Móna

British and Irish Steam Packet Company Limited

Ceimicí Teoranta

Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann, Teoranta

Córas Iompair Éireann

Electricity Supply Board

Fóir Teoranta

Industrial Credit Company Limited

The Irish Gas Board

Irish Life Assurance Company Limited

Irish National Petroleum Corporation Limited

The Irish National Stud Company Limited

Irish Shipping Limited

Irish Steel Limited

National Building Agency Limited

Nítrigin Éireann Teoranta

Óstlanna Iompair Éireann Teoranta

Radio Telefís Éireann

Údarás na Gaeltachta

Voluntary Health Insurance Board.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is an amendment in the name of Deputy De Rossa.

Mr. De Rossa

I move amendment No. 1:

1. After paragraph 1 to insert the following new paragraph:

(2) That, recognising the need for continued support and development of the Gaeltachts and concerned with recent publicity about the operation of Údarás na Gaeltachta, the Joint Committee is hereby instructed to examine the affairs of Údarás na Gaeltachta as a matter of urgency and to make recommendations for the better functioning of Údarás na Gaeltachta.

The amendment I put down simply reiterates a motion which was passed unanimously by this House last July indicating its concern about the state of Údaras na Gaeltachta. The motion at that time was included in the terms of reference of the Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies. I was anxious that the work of the committee of last year would continue and that is why I put down the amendment. In pressing the amendment I ask the Minister to indicate what he feels is the sequence in which the Committee's work should proceed. The motion asks that the committee, when established, take up the question of Údarás na Gaeltachta as a matter of urgency. That urgency still remains despite the fact that the last committee have not met since sometime last September.

In passing I would refer to a number of other points in this motion. One is the power of the Minister to delete companies from the list. I ask the Minister what the intention behind that paragraph is. The other point is the question that where companies request that the committee do not publicise confidential information, who is to decide what is confidential information and what is not? Is it the companies themselves? I am thinking in particular of the proceedings in relation to Údarás na Gaeltachta. If, for instance, the Údarás request that information which they are providing to the committee be not published on the basis that it is confidential, is it simply their word which is to be taken on this matter or is there some manner of appealing their request?

A further point I would like to make is that the allocation of positions on all of these committees is based on a very complicated — to me at least — procedure of proportionality relating to the number of Deputies and Independents in the House. Based on that formula, neither The Workers' Party nor the Independents will have any right to a position on this committee, nor indeed on the other committees either. I think the only committee that they will have a right to be on is that dealing with development, on which there are 17 places.

I should like to ask the Minister if, in coming to his conclusions in relation to Dáil reform, he has given any consideration to altering the procedure for allocating positions. Clearly, The Workers' Party and the Independents have something to contribute to these committees and it would be unfortunate if they are excluded from those in which they have an interest.

An Ceann Comhairle

I should like to point out to Deputy De Rossa that the membership of this or any other committee which we are forming today is a matter for the Committee of Selection and not for this House.

Mr. De Rossa

I understand that. But the Minister was given the responsibility by the Government to look at the question of Dáil reform. The allocation of positions on these committees, I have been informed, is on the basis of a formula which allows so many places to parties with a certain number of Deputies. On the basis of that formula a committee would have to have at least 17 members in order to allow one representative from a combination of The Workers' Party and Independent TDs.

Minister for the Public Service (Mr. Boland)

On the basis of proportion, the Deputy's Party is entitled to one place on a committee of 83.

Mr. De Rossa

I am grateful for that information and I urge that that position be changed. If the Government are anxious to reform this House and to provide opportunities to Deputies to contribute constructively to the work of this House then that situation should be changed.

Mr. Boland

The Deputy can change it when his party gets more seats.

Mr. J. Bruton

The first point made by Deputy De Rossa relates to his amendment in which he is seeking specifically to direct the committee to examine the affairs of Údarás na Gaeltachta. The position is that the Government have taken account in the way they have drafted the unamended terms of reference of this committee of the need for a full inquiry into Údarás na Gaeltachta if the committee so decides. The original draft of the motion, as operated in previous Dála, confines the remit of this committee to the examination of the commercial aspects of the work of Údarás na Gaeltachta and included Údarás na Gaeltachta in consequence on a separate schedule, namely schedule B, to the terms of reference of the previous committee. In order to take account of the points made by Deputy De Rossa and also the Government's concern that the committee should be free to examine the affairs of Údarás na Gaeltachta, the motion now presented is different from that which was presented in respect of this committee in previous Dála in this respect. The committee are not confined to examining the commercial aspects of Údarás na Gaeltachta but the terms have been so amended to allow them to examine all aspects of Údarás na Gaeltachta. The provision of a consequential separate schedule B to the terms of references has been done away with and Údarás na Gaeltachta have been included in the sole schedule along with all the other bodies. The net result of this is that the committee are free to examine the affairs of Údarás na Gaeltachta in full. That leaves the matter to the committee and essentially meets the concern of the House and the Government in this matter.

The Government have no proposals in mind to change the procedure for the method of selection of members of committees. The existing system of selecting members has been in operation for many years during which there have been various small and large parties in this House. The present system gives them reasonable representation relative to the number of seats they have in the House.

Mr. De Rossa

Do I have the right to reply?

An Ceann Comhairle

No. The Deputy moved his amendment and the Minister replied to the motion.

Mr. Haughey

Surely he has a right to reply?

An Ceann Comhairle

No. I am advised that he has not, but the Deputy may ask a question.

Mr. De Rossa

I need to make a contribution on the matter because the Minister has not responded adequately in relation to the question I asked about how people are selected to attend these committees. As things stand, there is no right for either The Workers' Party or the Independents to have a position on any committee.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may ask a question; he cannot make another speech.

Mr. De Rossa

In the last two Dála the Government ceded one of their seats to The Workers' Party. Are they prepared to do that on this occasion, especially in relation to this committee?

Mr. J. Bruton

I am not in a position to comment on that point. We have had no representation from The Workers' Party to that effect until now. Naturally enough, the position is that the committees the Dáil intends to establish are to be presented as a package——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister cannot make another speech either. Is the amendment being pressed?

Mr. De Rossa

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

The question is: "That amendment No. 1 in the names of Deputies Mac Giolla and De Rossa be made."

On that question, a division has been challenged. Will those who are demanding a Division please rise in their places?

Deputies Mac Giolla and De Rossa rose.

Mr. De Rossa

100 per cent.

An Ceann Comhairle

As fewer than ten Deputies have risen, in accordance with Standing Orders I declare the amendment lost. The names of the Deputies rising in their places will be recorded in the proceedings.

Motion agreed to.

Message to be sent to Seanad Éireann requesting its concurrence in this resolution.