It is proposed to take Nos. 1——
Order of Business.
On a point of order, you did say that I would be able to ask a question——
One question.
——having ruled that I would not be able to make any speech, because of the fact that there is only one of me and two of something else. This is what you ruled.
That ruling is one which is incorrect and could not be sustained and is contrary to the procedures of this House and that is a matter of agreement by all parties here.
The Taoiseach cannot reply to a question if he does not know what it is.
Does the Deputy wish to put down a question?
I am just telling you what you said. There is no way in which this can be allowed to go through in the manner in which it is being done.
If you wish to put down a question, Deputy——
(Interruptions.)
I am just telling you what you said.
I put it to you in this way — in the past, questions have been asked and I regret that if there is opposition to the answer from the Taoiseach I cannot allow it.
How could there be opposition to the answers if you have not heard the questions?
I am doing the best I can to get on to the Order of Business, but I am not being allowed to.
Any way, you can answer it tomorrow.
I have an application to make to this House and it is in the rule book. I want to ask the Leas-Cheann Comhairle how it is that this House has now developed to the point that the views of those repeatedly elected to it are not allowed to be expressed, while others are allowed to meander on in any fashion and form if they wish to do so? Furthermore, might I ask, now that I have the opportunity of asking a question, why five members of this House are not part of the paraphernalia recently set up, such as membership of any of the committees of this House? Is that the democracy that we can expect from this Taoiseach?
Excuse me, Deputy. That does not arise on the Order of Business. It does not arise here at the moment.
I am not going to be silenced in this House in that manner. That is not why I am sent here. I have a point of view and I am elected on that point of view and I am entitled to express it.
You will have another opportunity to do so.
I will express that point of view.
The matter to which you refer does not arise out of the statement.
The point is that I am entitled to express my view which does not correspond with the views of others who have already spoken here. This is a fundamental right of any democratically elected assembly, which this House is and I am a Member of it.
Deputy, I did not make the Standing Order. I am endeavouring to implement it to the best of my ability, with the co-operation——
Read out the Standing Order which allows the Leaders of the Opposition parties to speak while I am not allowed to.
We shall send you a copy of the Standing Order.
Read it out to the House.
Deputy, it is now five minutes past four.
I know that it is. I am well aware of that.
I am trying to get on with the business of the House.
I am quite aware of the time. I am aware that enough time has been taken up to have allowed me to express my views regarding the meeting between the Taoiseach and Mrs. Thatcher.
I regret that you cannot make a statement on the Taoiseach's statement.
I persist in making that statement. I am entitled to make it. You cannot and must not silence a Member of this House in that cavalier fashion. In no way can that be done. I ask the Taoiseach, what about the £100 million that we have not got, to pay to secure the Border which we do not want? What about that?
Deputy, I would ask you to refrain. Under the Standing Order you are not allowed to contribute on this matter. The Leader of the main Opposition Party, Deputy Haughey, contributed. Deputy Mac-Giolla contributed as Leader of The Workers' Party.
What rule is that? Tell us about the rule.
Under Standing Order 38.
Which says what?
Standing Order 38 says:
A member of the Government who has given prior notice to the Ceann Comhairle may make a statement in the House on any matter. No debate shall be permitted on any such statement but further statements may be allowed at the discretion of the Ceann Comhairle from a spokesman nominated by a Party in Opposition.
Right. Would you use your discretion on this occasion?
There are two parties in Opposition. I can have no further discretion in the matter.
My view is not represented by anything which the other speakers have said.
I can have no further discussion on the matter, Deputy.
I am not asking for discussion. I am asking to be allowed to express my own point of view on a matter with which I have been identified all my life.
Deputy, I regret this. I read out the Standing Order and have no further discretion in the matter.
You have and I am asking you to use that discretion. At your discretion you can allow me to express my views.
I have used my discretion to the limit and I cannot use it any further. I am calling on the Taoiseach for the Order of Business.
It is proposed to take Nos. 1,3,8,9 and 10.
You have discretion to let me make my views known in this House.
Please, you are being disorderly.
I am far from being disorderly. I am trying to uphold my democratic rights in this House and I am asking you to use the discretion given in Rule 38 to enable me to make my statement on the farce which took place yesterday in London, the kow-towing to Mrs. Thatcher——
Deputy Blaney, would you resume your seat for a moment please?
I will not resume my seat until you use your discretion.
From a man who has been for many years in the House and who is knowledgeable on Standing Orders in the affairs of the House and in view of what I have indicated to you concerning Standing Order 38, I would have expected better co-operation in the matter.
On a point of order——
I am now calling on the Taoiseach.
On a point of order, under Standing Order 38 you, acting on behalf of the Ceann Comhairle, have the discretion. You have been asked to give me a couple of minutes so that I might express my point of view. That is not being disorderly.
I have used my discretion to the limit and I regret that I cannot allow you to speak on this matter. I am very sorry that the Deputy is not co-operating with the Chair. Does Deputy Lenihan wish to say something?
The only discretion you used was to rule me out because it does not suit the Taoiseach to hear me.
Would the Taoiseach please repeat the Order of Business?
It is proposed to take Nos. 1,3,8,9 and 10 and Private Members' Business will be No. 44.
Deputies are entitled to express their views.
Deputy, will you resume your seat?
I will, if you have anything to say. I want an answer.
I have said sufficient. I am asking you to allow the Business of the House to continue.
I want an answer.
You have got the answer, and you are getting no further answer.
I got no answer from you.
You have got the answer in the Standing Orders.
You fiddled around for ten minutes.
I did not fiddle around.
Why will you not use your discretion and allow me to speak?
I am anticipating what you wish to have done, but I am calling on you to resume your seat.
You have the opportunity to use your discretion.
I have used my discretion to the maximum.
A closed mind.
Will you resume your seat Deputy?
No, I will not resume my seat. I am protesting against the absolutely undemocratic manner in which you on behalf of the Ceann Comhairle have refused to exercise your discretion. Rule 38 has been flouted.
Deputy Blaney will get his wish.
Deputy, if you are not prepared to resume your seat and be orderly, I will be forced to call on you to leave the House.
I am not disorderly.
You are being disorderly towards the Chair.
I am not disorderly. I will not resume my seat in protest against the undemocratic manner in which you on behalf of the Ceann Comhairle have refused to consider using your discretion under Rule 38.
If you do not resume your seat I will have to send for the Ceann Comhairle.
Do that. This is the second time in 35 years that I have been put out of the House.
You will be called on to withdraw from the House. Will you please resume your seat?
I will not resume my seat. I have no intention of resuming my seat.
I am sending for the Ceann Comhairle to deal with the matter.
I want to challenge the Taoiseach on why he has been kow-towing to Maggie.
Deputies
Rubbish.
At this moment they are strangling us. They are looking for the imposition of the super-levy. They are destroying this country and the Taoiseach is over there making things normal. What the hell is normal? Normal my foot. As the Leader of the Opposition said, never will there be normality in our relations until the British have withdrawn from this country. That is what the Taoiseach should have been saying instead of kow-towing to Maggie. He should have taken her up on the manner in which she is using her position in the EEC to screw us to get cheap food with which we fed them for far too long. The Taoiseach should get out of his shell and show some leadership at this time of crisis.
How is it that the only Member of the House who is allowed to break the rules is Deputy Blaney?
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Kelly should be named for interrupting another Deputy.
It has been reported to me that Deputy Blaney has been disorderly in refusing to obey the Chair. In accordance with Standing Orders I am naming him and asking the Taoiseach to propose his suspension from the service of the House.