I have been waiting for a long time to express my almost unreserved welcome for this Bill. I speak as a Deputy representing a constituency where the need for action in the criminal justice area is felt as a very great need. As other speakers have said, it is competing with unemployment as a major issue of concern locally. Crime immediately and seriously affects people's lives in a constituency such as I represent, which is very mixed, but does contain a very large working class area. In the past, it has been traditional to think of crime affecting wealthy areas rather more than working class areas but it has been a feature of the rise in crime and the nature of the change in crime over the last decade that working class areas have been hit as badly as middle class and wealthy areas. It is the most vulnerable in our community whose lives are being made even more intolerable by the activities of criminals. Perhaps that is why at an earlier stage in my political career I had a different emphasis in relation to the criminal justice area. I consider that action is necessary to create better living standards and a better quality of life for everybody, from the poorest and most vulnerable to those who have a lot at stake.
The Bill, with some reservations, is very welcome and will help to improve both the situation in relation to crime statistics in relation to detection and to the general confidence and morale of the people and the Garda Síochána with regard to the ongoing struggle with crime. The fact that it affects all areas and groups has made it an urgent problem and I need not repeat what so many speakers have pointed out with regard to the problems of the old and the poor and the sad incidences lately of attacks on infants so horrifyingly depicted in British newspapers. The atmosphere is very depressing and a solution must be found. It is not surprising that the Minister for Justice, Deputy Noonan, has become a figure of respect and one worthy of confidence.
One hears more and more stories of known criminals and vandals who seem to be thumbing their noses at authority. The system has broken down as there are so many ways in which they can by-pass it. Not all of these will be tackled by the Bill but some will. The situation in regard to bail is an ongoing scandal in that a person on bail can commit crime in the knowledge that there is no possibility of extra punishment being inflicted on him. The tightening up in this area is one of the most welcome elements in the Bill.
The other national scandal is that a person can get off on a technicality. While this will not be ended by the Bill, certain loopholes are being closed. The Minister said in his speech that even in cases of murder, certain evidence had been disallowed because of technicalities in relation to the right to detain and question which had been presumed to exist in the past but which had been called into question by a number of recent court cases. As a result of this, even in cases as serious as murder, evidence was ruled to be inadmissible because it was gathered in circumstances which were not legally defined. The publication of details of these and many other examples, some perhaps less serious, have broken down public faith and confidence in the Garda Síochána and in our system of justice and it is time to tackle these problems.
The sentencing structure has not been tackled in the Bill and this has also become something of a public scandal. Arising out of a combination of these factors there has been a sense that the Garda are powerless in the face of crime but perhaps this Bill will improve that situation and redress it to some extent. Parts of the Bill are non-controversial and have been welcomed by most Deputies, even those who criticised other parts of it.
The changes in relation to bail are very welcome, the fact that extra sentences can be imposed on a person who commits a crime while on bail and that absconding while on bail is liable to a sentence of one year has tidied up an area which badly needed it. The powers of detention is a controversial section but the amendments suggested by certain Deputies, such as a code of questioning, will be a very necessary part of the Bill and will be of great use in the detection of serious crime. It relates only to crimes which will carry a sentence of more than five years.
The public perception of the criminal — and a very valid one—is of somebody who is a professional and an expert in crime, better informed with regard to his rights and privileges than the members of the Garda Síochána who may be investigating the case. The fact that this is so, brings into question the whole method of training. It is unquestionable that the type of criminal operating today is a new phenomenon and it is necessary that our laws should be able to contain them. In relation to that, the powers of detention will offer an opportunity for the investigation of crime, to take fingerprints and photographs and to check records and alibis to prevent evidence being destroyed. The powers that have been suggested here are within those recommended in the Ó Briain Report and are moderate compared with those of other countries. They should be of assistance in the fight against crime. I am very sympathetic, however, to the suggestion of Deputy Shatter that a code of questioning might be implemented so that a certain established order could be agreed upon and publicly known to protect the right of the person being charged with a crime or being investigated.
While one presumes that in general the persons being dealt with will be either criminals or persons charged with serious crimes, inevitably there will be people taken in for questioning who are found ultimately to be entirely innocent. In any event, our aim must be to protect the civil liberties of both the innocent and the guilty while ensuring that the rights of the community to live in a crime-free society are protected also. The proposal by Deputy Shatter for a code of questioning is one that could be incorporated in this section by way of amendment, thereby improving the section and retaining its effectiveness.
The proposal that alibis be notified is to be welcomed. It is one that should not meet with any serious objection from anyone, even from those most experienced in the field. Obviously, it is desirable that if one intends relying on this form of evidence, notification be given in time for it to be fully investigated.
The proposal in relation to majority verdicts is welcome also. The question of the intimidation of witnesses has been put forward as one of the main substantive reasons for bringing in this package. Again, this proposal is to be welcomed.
The question of the possibility of inferences being drawn is one of the most controversial in so far as this Bill is concerned. This is an area that could be tightened up. As a non-expert in this area, the right of anyone to hide behind silence is a right in regard to which I have no difficulty. This may be naive of me but I have sympathy with the examples suggested by some speakers, for instance, the innocent person who is being questioned about crime and who may not have the wit, the sense, the knowledge or the confidence to cope with the question at the time. As this is a very broad section in relation to all forms of crime, perhaps it ought to be tightened up to relate specifically to named types of crime, to certain types of questioning and to the seeking of certain kinds of information on which broadly it would be reasonable to expect a person to supply fairly substantive answers. Then, a refusal to give information in respect of those areas could result in an inference being drawn. In this way we would be removing some of the grounds for criticism in this regard. Otherwise the section is desirable.
Obviously there are two situations we are trying to cover here. One is the question of strengthening the hands of the Garda and of the courts in dealing with hardened criminals who are adept at using both the courts system and the interrogation system and who may be more familiar with the courts of law than are some of those who will be dealing with them. At the same time, we must protect the basic human rights of the criminal as well as the rights of those who are found to be innocent.
On the question of the powers of detention also, Deputy Shatter raised certain points in relation to strip searching. I am aware that the current practice in this regard is that in the case of women, ban gardaí undertake the searching and that if medical attention is needed or if there is need for closer internal examination, there is provision for a choice of doctor. Abuses in this regard would be of such a personal nature that the safeguards which are adopted in practice should be incorporated in the law in order to ensure that there is no possibility of any such abuse and that there is a maximum recompense for any person who may be abused in this way. This would be to the benefit of all concerned.
The powers of detention have come under questioning also because of the possibility of a person being detained for a further length of time and during the night time period. It is written into the Act that should a person be detained for questioning for a further length of time a Garda superintendent would have to give reasons for the detention and would have to approve of it. Were the extra detention to be proved subsequently not to be justified, I understand that any evidence taken during that time would not come under any serious questioning. This is a protection against an abuse that I do not envisage happening.
In general, the Garda have welcomed the Bill but have indicated that it may not go far enough. In this context they refer particularly to the area of the powers of search. I have some sympathy with them in that the powers of search in this country are more limited than is the case in any other country. It would seem reasonable that in relation to such serious offences as murder, rape or serious bodily injury, there would be provision for some powers of search in an effort to find the murder implements and so on. This is another matter that might be considered to be amended at the next Stage.
I welcome the Minister's commitment in relation to bringing in a complaints procedure. This will be an important partner in this legislation but it is important that a complaints procedure would be independent and civilian orientated.
Deputy O'Kennedy expressed the opinion that the courts were adequate for dealing with the kinds of complaints that would come before such a tribunal but I would not agree, because for a case to arise in the courts a civilian must make a charge initially. In making a charge the civilian is at an undue disadvantage visà-vis a member of the Garda because in the first place the complaint must be made through that body. From the one or two complaints I have had as a public representative in relation to this area, I am of the opinion that an individual wishing to make a complaint would find that the cards were too heavily stacked against him. A civilian and independent authority in this regard would be desirable and essential. Then, if a complaint were substantiated, it could be followed through with the support of the complaints tribunal.
The proposals in relation to taping of investigation of accused persons are ones that must be developed and taken up. Essentially such a system is the best long term defence for the person detained and those involved in the interrogation. In other countries where taping is used the number of claims of abuse have reduced. The material on the tapes is used, when necessary, but the existence of the system has reduced a lot of the controversy in regard to evidence gained during interrogation. It would be a very good form of protection for the police and the person being questioned. The Minister should develop this system rapidly. Resources should be provided to purchase the necessary equipment and to train gardaí in its use.
Legislation is only one weapon necessary in the fight against crime. Since the Government took office there have been a lot of advancements at local level. From observations in my constituency it is clear that there have been changes in regard to discipline within the force and the setting of certain standards. That has had a great effect on national morale and confidence in the Garda Síochána. One of the most significant though simple changes that has occurred resulted from an instruction by the Commissioner, and the Minister, to the gardaí to return to the beat. That has had a considerable impact in Dublin and it did not involve any legislation. The gardaí had become motorised and distant figures. In some cases they were considered to be part of the crime scene in that they chased at high speed through areas in pursuit of youngsters in stolen cars. They were viewed as part of the threat to normal living. The gardaí lost a lot of contact with local people, and their return to the beat is the most significant change put into operation.
Another welcome change was the decision to deploy more gardaí in Dublin. The provisions of the Bill will do a certain amount, but a lot more is possible by imaginative use of existing resources and improved procedures within the Garda Síochána. Dublin Members have been critical of the deployment of gardaí. Although there is a population of twice that of Limerick city in my constituency we have one tenth of the number of gardaí policing it. The same difficulty exists in other areas of Dublin. Improvement in that area has led to a better community atmosphere and a reduction in the number of crimes committed. I welcome the decision to increase the number of ban gardaí. The arrival of ban gardaí has helped to improve the image of the force in terms of community sympathy. I also welcome the decision to deploy native Dubliners who join the force to stations in Dublin city. The old tradition of sending recruits away from areas they were familiar with was to the detriment of the force. I welcome the return of Dublin-born gardaí to the city, because they understand the way of life. That change in policy came from the top, and it has been most effective.
The extensions to prisons last summer have eased the problem of prison accommodation. However, prison accommodation is still inadequate and there must be continued investment in this area. The legislation on community service orders was imaginative and will help to deal with crime and the problem of prison accommodation. It is important that its provisions are available to our courts as an alternative form of punishment, particularly for young people facing a court for the first time. I know of cases where community services orders would be a better approach. It is impossible to assess the effect imprisonment has on young people, and that is why I should like to encourage the Minister to ensure that our probation services are developed so that the legislation on community services orders is effective.
There is need for changes in the Department of Justice, and they should take place in conjunction with the introduction of the provisions of the Bill. The numbers recruited to the Garda Síochána are inadequate. We must have sufficient gardaí on the beat so that they can become part of a community. Very few people are acquainted with the gardaí in their area. I am aware that a request has gone from my area where a community policing policy is developing for a garda to patrol the area on a regular basis so that local people can become acquainted with him or her. It is also important that the system of training recruits is reviewed. It is generally accepted that a training period of six months is inadequate. We are all aware of the complexities of modern crime and the drug problem and the importance of the development of a community relations service. Many other elements need to be dealt with during the garda training programme. We are all aware of the statements to the effect that the inadequate knowledge of the law by gardaí results in many criminals getting away on technicalities in court cases. Gardaí should be given more legal training. The Garda authorities will have to review the deployment of gardaí in urban and rural areas. There are problems in rural areas, and a community relationship with gardaí is desirable there also.
There is also a great need for court reform. Some of the problems we have in relation to the release of people on bail exist because of the extraordinary delays that occur in bringing cases to trial. A change in that area will mean that we will have fewer people committing crimes when on bail. It is desirable that those charged with any crime are brought before the courts within a short period, three to four weeks at the outside. A person who has been charged with any crime, serious or otherwise, should come before the courts at least initially within three to four weeks at the outside. currently and it is necessary that the Minister consider committing resources to this area.
In relation to the courts, there has been a proposal by the task force that there should be a special court for drug-related offences and that there should be a judge who would deal specifically with this area. There has long been an understanding that we need a children's court and that family courts, with properly trained personnel, should be established in a more homely environment. These are areas warranting immediate investigation. Perhaps the only way this could have been dealt with under the provisions of this Bill was by mandatory sentencing which I do not believe to be desirable. There is the question of sentencing and the problems we have had therewith in the country in the past year. We can think over the past year of many examples of what would seem to the ordinary person, and indeed to all of us in this House, as extraordinary and outrageous sentences being imposed by the courts. For the first time I think such a case became the subject of a debate in this House.
If the provisions of this Bill prove successful, do what is intended, help in the detection and conviction of criminals and if we cannot then rely on a logical and stable sentencing system, all of that work will have been in vain. We must look at how to modify this and how to improve the situation. I think it was Deputy Shatter who suggested that there should be periods of training for judges. He outlined the example of the judge who came from the solicitor's office where perhaps he had been dealing with house conveyancing and found himself the following morning endeavouring to assess and judge very serious crimes and deciding on sentences, and that those who were responsible for the establishment of this system should examine it very seriously. As a minimum suggestion, the question of training should be examined. I would think that judges, as a group, should come together regularly to discuss their common experiences and perhaps develop a more uniform system of sentencing and of approaches to crime. This area will have to be tackled. If in ensuing years the legal profession itself, the Judiciary, does not meet the challenge then it will be necessary for this House to examine the situation again and perhaps consider other methods of imposing some form of uniformity on the sentencing system currently available to us or that may become available to us through legislation at that stage. Some of the experiences of the past year put the whole of the criminal justice system into disrepute, putting serious worries into the mind of the average person who feels not alone unprotected from the criminal but may feel in need of protection from certain of the judges of the State who should be the main upholders of law and order. This situation warrants immediate attention. I would call initially on the body independently responsible for sentencing in this country and for the handling of the courts, the Judiciary, that they should look to their own house and do something about putting it in order.
There are other important elements to this problem of the solution of crime in our society, of which this Bill can constitute only one. Even were we to deal with all the other areas of the Department of Justice I have outlined, even were they all reformed tomorrow, we would still have a crime problem. The problem lies in the roots of our society and, of course, is not unrelated to the recession through which we are going. It is extremely important that we amalgamate our national energies in tackling our economic problems and in a resolution of those sorts of problems I have mentioned as speedily as possible. However, we shall have to live with recession for some years to come. Within that environment it is extremely important that we take decisions of discrimination in areas suffering maximum deprivation. It is open to the Government and local authorities to discriminate positively in favour of deprived areas from whence most of the criminal population emerge, that any spending in environmental areas, in community areas, should show positive discrimination in their favour. This may exist in Dublin Corporation area at present by virtue of the enlightened approach of certain individual officers but it should not be left to chance in local authority areas. A policy of positive discrimination should be the responsibility of every local authority in deprived areas.
In regard to education, certain areas must be immune from any cut-back and must be positively discriminated in favour of, for example, on the question of the pupil-teacher ratio. I know this operates to some extent but it needs to be developed in relation to pre-school facilities, to possible grant-aiding or encouragement of any further involvement in education, in second chance education and so on. This preventative measure in relation to crime can be illustrated by an example given me recently by a teacher involved in a very deprived area where they had gathered a class of 11 year olds whom they had identified as very high risk young people who, in their experiences given the normal pattern of similar children, would find themselves dropping out of school within a very short time into unemployment, with possibly a high level of them becoming delinquent and involved in crime. But through a programme of identification, prevention, a special programme aimed at their needs, the level of drop-out was reduced significantly. Certainly through that action in the educational field society was protected from the emergence of a further number of criminals. Also five or ten individuals in this case had their lives immeasurably enriched and improved and their future as human beings protected by society in a way that should be done on a much more extensive level.
In particular I would call for the Children Bill to take up a great deal of the work that is needed in this area of prevention and of caring for the youngsters who may become criminals. There is no doubt that public and parental neglect allows large sections of our young people to move into the area of delinquency, eventually becoming criminals. I look forward to the Children Bill which we have been promised in the next session. I look forward to it being a vital complement to any changes in the criminal justice area.
Deputy Molony in the course of his contribution referred to the portrait painted for us of the north city centre community where the superintendent responsible for that area, was able to isolate down to a number of 40 those responsible for crime in his area. Deputy Molony said that superintendent had said they could be identified, no longer now at the age of ten or 11 but at the age of eight, that at that age they were living rough, they were without adequate parental supervision and that, by the age of 12, they would have established a criminal habit which it would be difficult to break. It is quite clear that intervention in the lives of those youngsters at an early age would improve their lives and be likely to reduce the impact of crime on the community. It is extremely important that the Children Bill will tackle this bravely.
Even at the moment, though the power available is limited, some intervention might make a difference, but there are no facilities, support services, no places to which the children can go. None of the existing children's homes would take severely disruptive young people, and because they have nowhere to go they are either put into institutions which have a minimal reforming element or they will have to go back to the environment from which they came where they are without adequate care and likely to find themselves in more serious crimes later on. Therefore the question of their care must be tackled in the Children's Bill.
I suppose it is a source of optimism that the criminal problem here is limited and that crime is confined to a tiny minority. Of course that minority are having an impact on the community far greater than their numbers would suggest. Between 30 per cent and 40 per cent of the whole crime of the country can be located in inner city areas. Because those criminal numbers can be isolated this is a problem that can be tackled if we deal with it early.
The approach should not be just in regard to criminals but in regard to caring also. Continued involvement of the voluntary services will still be necessary, and my final point will concern the involvement of the community in the fight against crime. It is in the area of drugs that the involvement of the community has been tested most, and of course the drug problem is one of the most terrifying problems in Dublin and in the country as a whole, but particularly in Dublin. Communities have felt especially threatened in a way they have not felt in regard to other elements, perhaps mainly because it affects their young people most.
The response of the community has been to come together to inform themselves and to take communal action. Pilot projects are under way to establish alternative cultures to the drug culture and dependence on drugs in Dublin. When local communities come together and arm themselves with information they feel an involvement in preventive and alternative activities for young people. They have found this to be the best answer, and it is in that atmosphere that the development of the idea of community policing, or community involvement in policing, has taken root. It is a very welcome development.
In Finglas, in the constituency I represent, a pilot project for community policing is being investigated and has been warmly welcomed by the people there. They were anxious to get involved in trying to improve the quality of life in the area, and in a very short time there has been a significant improvement arising from better communication between the police and the people. The various community groups got to know the names of the superintendent, the inspectors, the sergeants and the gardaí in the station and they can contact them. Garda officers come to their community meetings and there is a feeling not of separation, which had grown up in the past between the police and the community, but the feeling of a shared task.
The community have begun to understand the task of the Garda Síochána and the limitations under which they work, and co-operation for mutual benefit has been built up. This community policing idea is at a very early stage. It has been tried in other countries where results have been significant. In some American cities there has been a resultant drop of 30 per cent in the crime rate. It is therefore worthy of experiment. Even before a formalised approach was adopted there had been improved community relations and there has been a significant drop in the number of, for example, car thefts. The figures for 1983 are very much reduced, from 1,100 to 700, a significant drop although there is a long way to go.
It is through this type of community involvement that the long term health and happiness of the people will come about. Of course there is need for a trained and co-operative police force backed up by adequate legal measures which we hope the Bill now before us will provide for the Garda. However, progress in all the areas I have outlined will be necessary, but I look forward in particular to community policing projects. I compliment the Minister once more on the initiatives that have emerged from the Department in his short term of office. I hope this will continue so that we will make serious inroads and at least contain and perhaps reduce the level of crime in the community in the next decade.
