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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Feb 1984

Vol. 347 No. 7

Private Members' Business. - General Medical Services: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy O'Hanlon on Tuesday 31 January 1983:
That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to provide General Medical Services to those between the ages of 16 and 25 years who are dependants of persons who do not have eligibility for these services.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and insert:
`endorses the Government decision to withdraw certain health services from persons aged between 16 and 25 years who are dependants of persons who do not have full eligibility for the services under Part IV of the Health Act, 1970.'
—(Minister of State at the Department of Health).

In supporting this motion I draw the attention of the House to a number of interesting statements made by the Labour Party, of which the Minister for Health is a member, when they were seeking re-election to the Dáil. In a report in The Irish Times of 10 December 1982 the Leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Spring, stated he wished to emphasise the difference between Labour and the two major parties. He said it was not enough to sit back and allow the poor to be penalised by the policies of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. Labour, he said, represented ordinary working people, not big business, big farmers or land speculators. He indicated the inherent cowardice of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael in failing to broaden the tax base and deal with inherited wealth. The manifesto also stated that both main parties looked to the health service as a soft target for cuts, hitting basic services while leaving abuses and profiteering unchecked. Deputy Spring went on to propose a comprehensive national health service, a phased extension of the GMS service to encourage a real switch from institutional to community care, doctors in the GMS to be paid by capitation rather than on a fee per item basis and also to end the State subsidy for private hospitals. They estimated this would save in the region of £20 million.

It is clear from the development of the Coalition policies in relation to health that they have, by and large, abandoned those objectives. The health services were started on an ad hoc basis. They were mainly won as concessions to the less well off. They have been developed on an ad hoc basis and are now being cut back on the same basis. The services have been under attack for a number of years. The cut-backs in relation to students will save £2.5 million. It is denying eligibility to 89,000 young people. The drugs refund limit has been raised to £28 from £16. The embargo on filling posts in the health services is having a serious effect on services. Only this week the dental services in the Ballymun area were seriously hit because of the embargo on the replacement of dentists. It was necessary to send one of the two dentists to Blanchardstown.

A lot of lip service is paid to young people. We are told they are our greatest resource. We are also told that education is essential and that we must have an educated youthful work force. The Government are erecting barriers for young people going not only to third level education, but also to second level. VAT was imposed on clothing and this will hit families where two or three young people are going to second level education. Parents are trying to educate their children out of their weekly wage or perhaps out of social welfare payments. Fee increases will be a barrier to young people entering third level education. Now young people will not be eligible for medical cards. These are the barriers being erected against mainly working class children.

I know of one family in the Ballymun area where there are seven children. The father is working but does not have a medical card. They are trying to keep five children at school, three at second level and two at third level. I have been trying for the past year to get the Eastern Health Board to allow this family a medical card but without success. This cutback will hit them severely. Probably one or two of them will have to leave school.

We have been told by the Minister that this cutback will affect only the well off students in third level education. Most of us are aware that there are many students in third level education living away from home. In many cases they have to pay their own way to third level education and they try to avoid drawing on the meagre resources of their families. Students who do not have a medical card will be reluctant to go to the doctor if they become ill because they will be unable to pay him. The cut-backs will also affect many students in fifth or sixth year in secondary schools. I urge the Minister to restore eligibility to young people and remind him of the areas where he knows savings can be made. It is time that he as a member of the Labour Party confronted the private medical interest which has blocked the development of a national and comprehensive service. He should confront the doctors, the pharmacists, drug companies and private hospitals. He could make savings in those areas. He should leave young people with some possibility of continuing their education and compete in the job market in the future.

I was unable to be present last evening because during the past few days I was a member of an official Government delegation concerned with the export of health services from this country to other countries. I fulfilled the long-standing invitation from the Ministers for Health in Kuwait and Iraq to visit those countries and meet the large number of Irish people working there. That is the reason why I was not in the House last night. I returned to Dublin this afternoon.

In Kuwait I met and saw some millionaires who are engaged in the health services. Many Irish people work there. Is Deputy De Rossa seriously suggesting that we should provide free general medical service and free drugs on behalf of the taxpayers to the children of wealthy farmers and wealthy medical consultants, including some who work abroad and whose children attend second and third level education here, people he has frequently berated for not paying their fair share of taxation? That is the nub of the issue and I must confess I find it cynically exploitative on the part particularly of The Workers' Party who time and time again come in here, pick up soft options, back the winner all the way and then try to ride two horses simultaneously because one can, on the one hand, claim there should be total universality without question and, at the same time, try to exempt people from responsibility for payment. Effectively that is what is being done. It is pure bandwagon nonsense. I say so because I have respect for the intellectual ability of Deputy De Rossa and I am surprised he should descend to that kind of selective socialism, though it is not socialism at all, no more than the kind of nonsense about dentists in Ballymun affected by an embargo. They are not affected by an embargo and the Deputy knows that. I do not want to digress——

That is a deliberate untruth.

——but that is the kind of propaganda——

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman, I did not interrupt Deputy De Rossa and I would expect him not to interrupt me now.

I have to ask Deputy De Rossa to withdraw the term "deliberate untruth".

I think it is quite parliamentary to say the Minister has told an untruth. The Minister told me yesterday that the dentists in Ballymun are affected by the embargo. That was in reply to a Parliamentary Question yesterday.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is being disorderly. He must withdraw the term "deliberate untruth".

I do not wish to withdraw it.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy will either have to withdraw it or leave the House.

I will leave the House.

Deputy De Rossa withdrew from the Chamber.

In relation to the question of the embargo which allegedly will be affected, in the budget statement by the Minister for Finance the health services in terms of specific numbers were excluded from the embargo which makes a total nonsense of Deputy De Rossa's allegation. We are working on cash limits in health services and these cash limits determine the availability of staff. I would refer the Deputy to that particular aspect.

To deal with the issues raised, the basic principle under lying the general medical services scheme and the issue of medical cards is very simple. The system provides that persons who cannot provide — this is specific health legislation — general medical services for themselves and their dependants are provided with such services by the State without charge. It is also written in that those who can afford to provide services for themselves without hardship will do so. That is written into the Health Act. It is my job as Minister to implement the Act.

I regret I was not here to hear Deputy O'Rourke but, looking at the Official Report, I see a high degree of selectivity on the part of the Fianna Fáil Party. I have looked at my own memoranda and the 1982-1983 estimates are riddled with proposals from the Department of Finance and various observations by the Department of Health and the then Minister on the question of arrangements for the withdrawal of automatic entitlement to medical cards for second and third level students. But Deputy Dr. Woods, Deputy Haughey and the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Gene Fitzgerald, seem to have forgotten that. It is amazing how forgetful they can become. I do not propose to elaborate on it but the anomaly of people receiving medical cards outside the income limits has been there for a number of years, and time and time again that has been brought to the attention of the Department of Finance and time and time again different Ministers for Health have had to consider the matter. The selective play to the gallery by Fianna Fáil on this issue frankly does not ring true any more than the selective observation by Deputy De Rossa tonight who would have every wealthy farmer and exceptionally wealthy businessman automatically having their children entitled to medical cards.

I want now to give some of the facts. The estimated number of students in the 16 to 25 age group is approximately 120,000. Of these some 35,000 come from families who have medical cards and the rest come from the upper middle and upper income group families who in the normal course of events provide general practitioner services for their families without hardship and have always provided them prior to their children becoming students. As students in recent years they became entitled to medical cards. That service has now been withdrawn.

An examination of the usage rate of medical services by young persons — what one might describe as young entitled adults — shows the average visiting rate to a general practitioner is only about twice a year on average. I confess I find it difficult to believe that upper middle income and upper income families would find it an extraordinary hardship if they had to pay for two visits a year for their student children in second and third level education. That is three times less than the ordinary medical card holder.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

I ordered Deputy De Rossa to leave the House.

I did leave the House.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy must withdraw for the remainder of the debate.

I think it is only fair to say the Minister has either told a lie tonight or last night. In reply to a question on 31 January about dental services in Ballymun——

Acting Chairman

The Deputy will have to withdraw or I will have to suspend the sitting.

In reply to a question he said the recruitment of additional staff——

Acting Chairman

I cannot allow the word "lie" or the expression, "a deliberate untruth" to be used. If the Deputy is not prepared to withdraw these words, I must insist on his leaving the House.

The Minister has abandoned every facet of Labour Party policy. He is a washout.

Acting Chairman

I have asked the Deputy to leave the House.

Deputy De Rossa withdrew from the Chamber.

I make the point that an examination of the usage rate of the GMS by young entitled adults showed the average visiting rate to a general practitioner to be less than 2.5 visits per year. This compares with an average visiting rate of six visits for the entire medical card population. On this basis it must be concluded that the cost to a student of providing this service for himself or of having it provided by his parents is not substantial and normally should not involve hardship.

The regulations withdraw free general practitioner services and free drugs from persons in the 16-to-25 age group. This means that for the future the entitlement of students automatically to these services will depend on their family circumstances and that the criterion of ability to pay for the service without hardship will apply to the student in the same way as it applies to everybody else in the community. Of course a student will automatically have full entitlement if the family circumstances are such that they have a medical card.

Therefore, some 35,000 students will retain their medical cards by virtue of their family circumstances. In addition, students in receipt of disabled persons maintenance allowance will retain their entitlement to these services. Some students will retain entitlement under EEC regulations. Students coming to this country from EEC countries retain the entitlement of the home country while they are here. We provide the service but it does not cost us any money because we claw back the cost from the other EEC countries. In terms of EEC regulations we are obliged legally to provide those services. Likewise, the same applies to students from this country who may be studying in other EEC countries. We pay those other countries on a reciprocal basis. Some students retain entitlement by virtue of having cover under EEC regulations.

I would stress that much of the propagands and hyprocisy being indulged in in regard to this decision of the Government is emanating from USI sources and particularly from the failure of the President of the USI to explain the decision to students. I have met him and I have met a delegation from the USI. I have explained the decision in considerable detail but they are far more interested in a general hoo-ha about the issue than in dealing with the facts. Students whose medical cards are being withdrawn will lose only a minor part of the services, that is, access to a GP on a free basis and access to free drugs. That is all that is involved. Students retain full eligibility for free hospital services, both in-patient and out-patient, including the services, free of hospital consultants. In this regard they are in a particularly beneficial position. In the general population anyone earning more than £11,000 per year is obliged to pay for consultants' services but we have waived that obligation in relation to students.

On a point of order, the figure should be £12,000.

If Deputy Ormonde who is doing quite well out of the health services would remain quiet, I would explain the position.

I am not imposing any limit in terms of qualifying for free consultancy services so far as students at second-and third-level education are concerned. In other words, there is a special privileged position in that regard for them.

Regardless of what the circumstances of a student's family are, whether the family are very wealthy or whether they have a large business, consultancy services in hospital will be free.

The Minister has embarked on a change of philosophy in the past ten minutes.

That is not so. I read the report of Deputy O'Hanlon's speech last evening and I considered his contribution to have been measured and responsible unlike the contributions we had from Deputy O'Rourke and a few others whose object was to score political points. What I am saying is that in-patient, out-patient and free consultancy services are available without charge to every student irrespective of his parents' income. We are talking about what are the most expensive services within the health services. Therefore, the question of hardship in respect of a student having to undergo an operation does not arise. Equally, I have made the point repeatedly to the USI whose president, regrettably, is more interested in having his name in the papers or in appearing on television, that where any hardship arises in relation to the delivery of medical health services, there is a clear provision that a medical card can be issued.

It is not possible nor is it desirable to set out all the criteria for hardship in terms of the way in which income guidelines are expressed. For example, if a student must attend a doctor on a regular basis and at considerable cost to his family and if he must spend a great deal of money on drugs and medicines on a regular basis by virtue of the severity of his medical condition, there is provision in the regulations I have signed for the chief executive officer of a health board to issue a medical card. The CEOs will take account of the circumstances of each student by assessing applications for medical cards. The general question of means will be considered. As I have explained in the House and to the USI I have made specific provision in the regulations that where hardship is likely to arise the CEO of the appropriate health board will have power to make these services available without charge. Unfortunately students are not being told the full facts.

To sum up, not all students will lose medical cards. On our estimate, 35,000 students will retain this entitlement. This figure will include those at greatest risk of having difficulty in paying for GP services — those from lower-income families, the working class that Deputy De Rossa talks about while at the same time advocating the issuing of medical cards to everyone, irrespective of income. That is an approach that cannot be sustained by the Government in the future. It is the approach of selective socialism. It is hypocrisy. In the light of the current serious economic climate it is essential to have regard to the cost of our health services. In the current year I do not have the money available to allow me to provide services without charge to everyone, irrespective of income. There were many options open to me in that regard. For instance, I could have imposed charges on those who used medical cards but I decided not to do that. I could have provided for a charge in respect of prescriptions but I did not do so because those in the lower income group, 38 to 40 per cent of the community, have medical cards. Four out of ten people have medical cards but I decided I would not impose further financial hardship on that sector.

For example, I could have decided not to increase the income guidelines for medical cards. I would have saved money by so doing but I decided deliberately to increase the income guidelines by 10.3 per cent from 1 January. This is well within the increase in the rate of inflation. I decided to use about £500,000, out of the £2,500,000 I saved on the decision in relation to universal application, to help people over 66 years. For the first time we have given extra help to them. They need health services and are the most vulnerable section.

Instead, I withdrew limited services from a group of persons — between the ages of 16 and 25 years — who were low users of the services and who received them without regard to ability to pay. I believe that less hardship will be caused because of the decision I have taken. I published the arrangements in the newspapers. In the remaining few minutes I shall deal with points raised by Deputy O'Hanlon.

Deputy O'Hanlon pointed out the possibility that problems may arise in deciding on dependency in applications for medical cards. I agree that problems can arise, but they can be met and I made this perfectly clear to student deputations and to party political deputations I received. Dependency is a matter to be determined in the circumstances of each individual case. For example, Deputy O'Hanlon spoke of a student who may be in part-time employment and financing his or her way through third level education. On the basis of that information I would be very surprised if the health board considered that the person in question was a dependant and I have no doubt that most likely the regulations would not apply. However, it is a matter for the CEO to determine. I have framed the regulations in as flexible a way as possible. Two students may marry and I would not regard them as being dependent on their parents. They are a family unit in their own right and the two would apply for a medical card based on their income as a family unit. Under the regulations I have signed most likely they would receive a medical card.

I received a responsible representation from the Irish Student Health Association and I will quote one paragraph:

This submission does not request that all third level students should automatically get medical cards irrespective of their income.

That is the issue at stake. The USI said they must get the cards but I say I cannot give them. The submission from which I quoted was signed by H.G. Nelson, Secretary of the Irish Student Health Association from the TCD Health Centre dated 27 January, and they support me in this. With regard to hardship cases, they ask that particular and speedy consideration be given to individual submissions under this heading and of course that will be done. There has been a tremendous amount of propaganda about this matter and, unfortunately, many students are being misled.

In the submission they state that the income of many students and their parents can deteriorate dramatically at some stage after the student has begun his or her course. In particular, unforeseen unemployment is now affecting all socio-economic groups and they ask that health boards make arrangements to deal with students so affected. Of course, the health boards will make speedy decisions in those cases.

In the submission it is recommended that problems in the home, such as desertion and alcoholism, be taken into account when assessing the eligibility of third level students. Of course that is done. Deputy O'Hanlon and Deputy McCarthy are members of health boards and Deputy Ormonde has for long been associated with health board employment. Where there is sudden unemployment in a family the situation with regard to medical cards will be reviewed immediately. I have included in the regulations a provision that the CEO concerned should take care of the situation.

Deputy O'Hanlon referred to a situation in Cork. I checked on that case where a student has been involved in expenditure of £300 in respect of medical attention. I do not doubt the Deputy's information but I must point out the situation could not have arisen as a result of my decision to withdraw automatic entitlement because no medical card has yet been withdrawn in the Southern Health Board area which covers Cork and Kerry. In a hypothetical situation if a student is going to have heavy expenditure, having to visit his doctor on a regular basis and having to spend a considerable amount on drugs, and if his family has not the money to provide the funds, the CEO is empowered to provide that student with a medical card or free access to drugs. A student will have total access to hospital consultants even if his father is earning £100,000 per year.

I do not want to impose undue hardship. I am trying to be as helpful as possible. In my constituency the children of very wealthy families are dropped off at a health clinic, they go in with the medical card and get free drugs and free GP services. There is no country in Europe providing that kind of service without charge. There is always a qualification in each case and there is a definite controlling element in that regard.

Deputy O'Hanlon expressed concern about third level students living away from home in flats or digs and who may have difficulty in meeting the cost of a visit to a GP when this is required urgently. If the circumstances of a student who does not have a medical card are such that he is in any danger of not being able to get the services, the hardship provision will come into operation. I share the concern of the Deputy that some urgent cases may fall outside the safety net. I have indicated to the CEOs — and I will take up the matter again at the request of the Deputy — to make sure that additional safeguards are built into the system to ensure that these cases are catered for adequately.

I have dealt with the points raised. I received a submission from the Irish Student Health Association on this matter. That submission will be very carefully considered. I only wish that the representations made to me by the USI had been delivered in a rational form, instead of with stridency and hysterics. Every time the television camera appeared, the representatives fell to the floor in total hysteria. That does not rate serious consideration, but the submission I have received now will have my serious consideration and I shall respond to it.

We must provide the best possible health services for our people, within the extreme limitation of our resources. These services are being provided on an in-patient and out-patient and free consultancy basis.

The Minister has gone over his time.

There is automatic entitlement to general practitioners, irrespective of income and also entitlement to free drugs. These arrangements are coming into force and I do not propose to go back on them. Anybody who knows me would be very mistaken to think that I would bend to that wind, irrespective of the effect on my political future.

I call on Deputy Ormonde. The Deputy has ten minutes.

I should like to thank the Chair and also my party colleague, Deputy McCarthy, for allowing me a few minutes of his time on Private Members' Business on the motion:

`That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to provide General Medical Services to those between the ages of 16 and 25 years who are dependants of persons who do not have full eligibility for these services.'

This motion was put down by our party spokesman, Deputy O'Hanlon. In plain terms, it concerns the decision of the Minister to remove medical cards from students. As a doctor, I consider this a strange decision of a Minister for Health but when taken by a Labour Minister for Health, it becomes almost unbelievable. The Minister, as a Labour Party member, contested the last general election in November 1982 solely on the basis of the health cuts proposed by the previous administration. That party's entire strategy in that election campaign was to show a desire to cater and care for the poor, the old, the young and the needy. Their contributions to the vote of confidence which resulted in that general election were of one voice in relation to the proposed cuts by the then administration. The Labour Party could not wait to join forces with their Fine Gael colleagues to implement their social policies. One of their demands for participation in Government was that the responsibility for health and social welfare should rest with the Labour Party, so that they could cater and care for the poor and needy. What was the Minister's first action when elected Minister for Health? He removed the medical cards from the pensioners.

I did not interrupt the Minister.

The Deputy is completely incorrect.

We should have been forewarned of what was to come, but little did we know that the students, who apparently have no voting potential whatsoever, were the next to be hit. On that same confidence motion in 1982, the Minister's party and Cabinet colleague, Deputy Quinn, criticised the Government of the day for taking the soft option and removing certain drugs and bandages from the GMS list, on the basis that these people did not contribute to election campaigns. At least, we left them with their medical cards, which is more than we can say for the Minister or his Government.

The Minister in that same debate said that we must maintain basic Exchequer moneys and taxation to ensure that the best standards of health care are available to those in need. He went on to say that we must ensure that taxation moneys are maintained to put greater emphasis on preventive medicine and community health programmes. Does he believe that the best way to have preventive medicine is not to make it available to anybody? Is the Minister suggesting that grant-aided students are not in need, that they have money to burn? We all know the difficulties of these people at the moment.

The Minister has claimed, and the Book of Estimates confirms, that there will be a saving, mark you, of £2.5 million by this exercise. He has not to date explained how this will come about. As a doctor attached to a general hospital let me give some of the hard facts. It is well known that students are among the healthiest of our population, rarely going to see their doctor. To set an average at 2.5 per cent is nonsensical.

That is taken from the medical claims figures. It is a computer read-out.

There is no way that one can average such things out. Of the small minority who do require medical assistance, what will they do now? If they are fortunate enough to reside in a town with a general hospital — and the majority of students will be within easy reach of such a hospital, if one takes into account the regional technical colleges and the universities — they will go to the casualty department or out-patient department of that hospital. Where will the saving arise there? Not only will there not be a saving, but I can assure the Minister that there will be an additional cost factor in all this.

Let me paint the scenario in relation to my own hospital, Ardkeen General Hospital, Waterford. Our casualty department at present is staffed by a very junior doctor, in some cases perhaps only a day or two out of medical school. We have repeatedly appealed to the Minister and his Department for a casualty officer of some years' seniority, but this request has been refused. That is another example of the cut-backs that you so rigorously opposed in opposition, only to re-introduce them when you returned to power. Such a junior doctor is not in a position to take on too much responsibility. In order to protect himself or herself this young doctor will send a patient for a battery of tests and x-rays which in most instances are not required at all. So again I ask you, Minister, where is the saving?

An Leas-Cheann-Comhairle

Through the Chair, please.

May I ask the Minister, through the Chair, where the saving will arise here? This young doctor will then most probably refer the patient to the out-patient department to be seen by a more senior doctor, resulting in additional costs. Not only that, it will put an additional burden on the already overstretched hospital services because of the other cut-backs advocated by the Minister.

In my own South-Eastern Health Board region we are expected to cut back services this year to the tune of £3.5 million. Among the cut-backs advocated is a reduction in jobs of between 150 and 200. The Minister well knows that our hospitals are already understaffed and they are now being asked to cater for an additional volume of patients. All this, mark you, from a Minister who has advocated that the emphasis must be taken off hospital medicine and brought back to the community. If this is not a catch 22 situation, I do not know what is. On the one hand he suggests that the medical cards be removed from the people and the students, as a result sending them back into the hospitals, while on the other hand in major policy statements on health he advocates that the emphasis must be placed on community medicine. The Minister cannot have it both ways.

If the young people are allowed to see their own GPs the likelihood is that they would deal with the problem on the spot and there would be no additional referral and no additional cost. I understand that the Minister said again tonight that, although the medical cards will be withdrawn from the students, they will be in a position to avail of free hospital and consultancy service. In other words, they will be entitled to a hospital services card. Big deal.

The Deputy has one minute.

Surely, if their income is below £12,000 they will be entitled to it. I do not deny that a critical review of the various schemes is not only prudent but a good exercise. However, in relation to this plan such a review must take into account the special needs of students, the likely consequences of the change and the cost effectiveness. I believe that I have shown conclusively that as a cost effective exercise this is a non-starter. I have no doubt that when the Minister and his officials sit down at the end of the year to review the Department of Health expenditure they will find that they have spent extra money rather than saved. What bothers me about that is that this money may have to be cut off from something else.

In conclusion, I appeal to the Minister to reconsider this decision, particularly with reference to grant-aided students. There is no way in which they will be able to pay for their medicines right now.

It saddens me that we have been forced into this unbelievable situation this evening, and again last evening, in which we have had to put down this Private Members' Motion to advise the Minister and his Government of the appalling mistake they are making in withdrawing medical cards from students between the ages of 16 and 25 years whose parents do not hold medical cards. I use the phrase "unbelievable situation" advisedly because if any degree of logic or common sense prevailed within the Government, if any of its members had any common sense or degree of humanity, they would never have entertained the idea of embarking on this destructive course of what I might describe as economic madness.

Certainly not if we were members of the medical profession doing well on it.

I am sorry if the Minister lowers the level of discussion; I would not stoop so low.

It is a reality, consultants and general practitioners got the benefit of what was happening.

Most of them work very hard, work very late at night and get out of their beds while the Minister is sitting at home in the peaceful seclusion of Dún Laoghaire.

Selective concern for their own income.

I can assure the House that I am not speaking on behalf of any vested interest group. I speak on behalf of two-thirds of the student population who are now having their medical cards removed by this Minister and his party and the party with whom they are in power. Those are not the people about whom I am concerned. I am concerned about the students. I am not concerned about the doctors or their incomes but I am concerned about the serious incursion made into a facility formerly available to students before this Minister and his Government got their hands on it.

The Deputy should see the cost of drugs prescribed for students.

Minister, please, you spoke for half an hour.

(Interruptions.)

It shows that the Minister and his Government live in a world of fantasy, in a dreamland scene preoccupie solely with books, figures, mathematics and accountancy. With so little else on their minds I would have thought they would have done much better than they did in the last year; certainly they made a bit of a botch of that also.

I would not mind being a doctor or having his income.

Our biggest asset — and I would hope the Minister might see this — is our youth population. As the House is well aware, we have the highest percentage of population under the age of 25 years of any country within the EEC. These young people have an absolute right to every possible support from the Government of the day. They need to be nurtured, supported, educated, helped and protected in every way possible by the Government but they are not. Instead, on this occasion, they have been singled out especially by the Minister for Health and his Government to be discriminated against mercilessly. Perhaps I should be more benign to the Minister and his Government; perhaps they were not specifically selected. Perhaps the Minister and his Government were engaged in an exercise in which the students had their names pulled out of the economic hat, just as the old age pensioners Deputy Ormonde mentioned a short while ago, or a large percentage of them, had their medical cards removed by the Minister, irrespective of any protests the Minister may make. We had given a medical card to every single old age pensioner in this country——

Including bank managers already on pensions.

But the Minister, in another economic grouse took away medical cards from many old age pensioners. That is a fact. There is no point in trying to hide over there. The Minister did remove them.

Selective again.

Surely the Minister is not trying to justify what he did.

Absolutely.

Perhaps these young people were unlucky in that their names were pulled out of the economic hat. But that is a very bad excuse and very poor consolation to them. It is becoming somewhat of a cliché. But we are beginning to become fed up when we look at the performance of this Government. That all our children, boys and girls, should be cherished equally and cared for equally and fairly: if we are to follow any kind of a just and moral diktat certainly that is the policy we should have. But that does not appear to be the policy of the Minister and his Government.

The Minister in reply to written questions submitted by me last week — in which I endeavoured to elict some specific information regarding the numbers of students and the cost involved in treating them — informed me that approximately 120,000 students between the ages of 16 and 25 years were eligible for medical treatment last year under the general medical services and that the estimated cost of treating them was £3,500,000. He informed me also that this would have involved approximately 275,000 consultations during the year, giving an average consultation per student of just about 2.5 visits to a doctor per student per year. In answering my questions the Minister did not have precise figures; his Department did not have the precise figures. Yet he was able to rush along madly and decide he would remove medical cards from students on 1 January last. He was working on estimates. Had the Minister taken the trouble to peruse even the estimated figures or statistics available to him before rushing head over heels into removing medical cards from these students he would have seen that all of those students, young boys and girls — on whose future our country is dependent — have behaved very responsibly with regard to their free medical treatment. They did not embark on doctor-visiting sprees. They have used the services judiciously and prudently and showed remarkable responsibility. Have the Minister and his Government the right to punish them for their careful and responsible use of those services? I say neither he nor his Government has that right. Furthermore I contend that two-thirds of our student population who have been stripped of their medical cards by this cruel, inhuman, miserly, uncaring Minister and his Government over there have every reason to feel aggrieved and annoyed. Just in case the Minister does not know — and I do not believe he does — they feel not just aggrieved and annoyed but dismayed and despondent because they feel this constitutes one more step by the Minister and his Government in their anti-youth policy undertaken since they came into power.

Last week my colleague, Deputy H. Byrne, was informed by the Minister that the estimated cost of treating each student last year was £27. Surely that is a very small price for the Government to pay in order to ensure that the physical and medical health of our young people is maintained to optimum level? The Minister, in attempting to explain the reasons for taking this unholy decision, centres his argument on the anomaly that existed in allowing all students to hold medical cards. Surely the Minister must know that anomalies abound in many other areas. It would be impossible to correct all of them. I might give a few examples by way of explanation. In deciding eligibility of a child for a disabled person's maintenance allowance the assessment is made irrespective of the parents' means. The Minister must realise also that, say, parents have boys or girls aged 18, these parents not holding medical cards in their own right — and those boys or girls undertake an AnCO course, those boys or girls are assessed on their means at that time in determining whether or not they should hold medical cards. Obviously they would be deemed eligible. However, the other unfortunate boys or girls aged 18 years who wish to pursue third level education will not get a medical card because their parents are over the eligibility limit. That is discrimination against particular types of students and could even be termed discrimination within a family unit. The Minister should have looked at all the other anomalies before he concentrated on this anomaly.

I have pondered the question of the legality of this ministerial order and I hope the Minister will clarify the position. I should like the Minister to pay attention to what I am saying: he is so uninterested in the students that he is having a chat with his party colleague. Where are the rest of the Labour Party? They are sulking in the background. Has the Minister the legal right to lower the living standards of students without recourse to the judgment of Dáil Éireann? Even if he has the right, he should have sought the advice and views of Members of this House before deciding to strip students of their medical cards.

The Minister must realise the anxiety which his decision is causing for parents who now have to ensure that their children have money in their pockets for standby medical emergencies. The Minister must also know that young people tend to be indifferent about their health. Young people are usually healthy and think that the pain they may get is something that will go tomorrow or the day after. They do not rush to see doctors and the figures provided by the Department prove that this is so. Many young people, even those with medical cards, which were an insurance to prevent neglect, dilly dallied when going to doctors. The Minister has now added an extra obstruction to prevent those young boys and girls from being diagnosed properly and receiving treatment. He has added a monetary constraint to ensure that those boys and girls could perhaps neglect their health. If that happens I would not like to be a member of the Government.

It is very difficult for parents nowadays to budget for the cost of an emergency. We all know that visiting doctors and paying for drugs on a private basis can be very expensive. The medical card was a cushion which ensured that they could go to a doctor without costing them or their parents any money. The Minister must know that 40 per cent of the 8,500 or so students at UCD — this also applies in all the other third level colleges — live away from home. These young boys and girls and their parents have enough stress and strain in relation to their studies, the worry of examinations and their future careers without this added imposition. The Minister seems out of touch with reality just as the Government are. Living in the quiet security of Dún Laoghaire seems to have made the Minister blind to the inherent dangers which may ensue as a result of his miserly policies. The Minister must realise that the new poor are the middle income group and these comprise most of the parents of students in third level colleges. Most are just above the eligibility limits for medical cards and are struggling to pay mortgages, with car HP repayments, PAYE and attempting to provide the best possible education for their children.

They are paying a fortune to the medical profession. No wonder the Deputy is worried about this decision.

They are just above the eligibility limit for the general medical service and the Minister is imposing extra costs on them. The Minister must know every single £1 added on to the cost of the middle income group is an unbearable burden and becoming increasingly so. If he does not realise this he is living in cloud cuckoo land and the sooner he comes down to earth the better. Most parents do not live in millionaire's row, they are in the middle income group. It is particularly sad that a Minister for Health, a member of the so-called socialist group, a trendy leftie, has for the sake of power, sacrificed every principle which they tried to lead the public to believe they had.

When the Minister was in opposition he spoke about our inferior health service. He said we would never have a proper health service until medical attention was free to all. When he took office he said that the health service was far too good and that we must take medical cards away from students. He also said we must cut back on our hospitals, that nobody can get sick on a Saturday or Sunday and that a woman must have a baby at a stated time. The Minister should not be proud of the job he has done on the medical service. It was hypocritical of him to speak the way he did in opposition——

This is just more rhetoric.

The mercs and perks party, which is now Labour, have been swallowed into the bowels of the capitalist right of Fine Gael and the Minister knows that.

The Government have paid much lip service to so-called youth policies but what have they done? They have turned like wolves on the young people. They have imposed school transport charges, cut-backs in educational facilities, increased in a cruel way the cost of third level education——

How many medical cards had the Deputy?

It is the Minister who is withdrawing them. I am trying to make him see the light, but there are none so blind as those who will not see. I know a good eye doctor to whom I could refer the Minister. The Government have continued their anti-youth policies with the cruel increase in third level education fees, the cut-backs in the employment scheme and now this. The Minister's colleagues are hiding in the background and are telling their constituents that they did not agree with this and that they did not even know what was going on. At home they are trying to convince the local public that they did not have hand, act or part in it, but they had. They supported them——

The Deputy must conclude.

The public now know them for what they are.

As I have only five minutes, I want to make a few points. The previous speaker referred to the cut-backs in health and other services. It is very sad to see these cut-backs. It is a sad admission that due to the mismanagement of our economy under Fianna Fáil——

That line has been worn out a long time ago.

I did not interrupt the Deputy and I hope he will have the manners to let me speak for five minutes.

I hate listening to rubbish.

I want to show up the Deputy's hyprocisy on this whole question. He is afraid of being shown up and that is why he does not want me to speak. Whether Members want to hear them or not, these are the facts. Fianna Fáil were the people who put the health and education services in jeopardy and are responsible for the position in which this Government find themselves wher they have to make cutbacks in various services to save the country for the young people. Fianna Fáil, who talk about young people, had little concern for them when they were in government.

This Government have been in office for more than one year and they are not making much of a job of it.

Would Deputy McCarthy please refrain from interrupting?

I want to point out the hypocrisy of this motion. Under Fianna Fáil young people between the ages of 16 and 25 had to undergo a means test when they applied for medical cards. When Fianna Fáil were in power why did they not extend the service to all young people between the ages of 16 and 25? What about the parents of unemployed young people? It was the Fianna Fáil Government who insisted that these people would not get medical cards until they applied for them, were subjected to a means test and so on.

The Minister of State is bluffing. Do not tell me he is defending the system. I have heard everything now.

I know Deputy Fitzgerald does not want to hear——

Deputies, do not interrupt, please.

I am now showing up the hypocrisy of Fianna Fáil who say they are concerned for young people between 16 and 25 years of age.

What about the Ministers free for all service?

(Interruptions.)

I want to show up Fianna Fáil's hypocrisy in their concern for the health and well-being of young people between 16 and 25 years of age. Apprentices, people with low incomes and the unemployed have always had to apply for medical cards and be means tested under the Fianna Fáil Administration.

Fianna Fáil introduced the GMS.

Deputy McCarthy, please do not interrupt.

(Interruptions.)

As a Labour member of a health board I always found it impossible to explain to a farm labourer or another low paid worker how he could not get a medical card for his children while his employer, with 500 acres, could get a medical card for his children.

The low paid workers are laughing at the Labour Party. They regard them as the biggest joke of the century.

(Interruptions.)

I am calling Deputy O'Hanlon to conclude the debate.

The Minister of State, Deputy Pattison, referred to this debate as hypocrisy. This debate is about a very simple issue: withdrawing medical cards from students and others between the ages of 16 and 25. Deputy Pattison said he is delighted with the change——

I never used the word "delighted".

——and that he objected to the idea that there should be a means test for anybody between the ages of 16 and 25 years. We are very proud of the fact that people over the age of 16 were means tested in their own right and that those over 16 years of age who had no income got medical cards. We are very proud of that, that is what we are voting on tonight and that is what Deputy Pattison will vote against.

He mentioned the cut-backs in the service and blamed them on Fianna Fáil. The year 1983 was the worst case of financial mismanagement in the last decade, and it is because of that mismanagement that the Minister rushed in and made this decision on 16 December to be implemented on 1 January, even though that was not possible in all health board areas. He gave universities and other third level institutions two weeks to make alternative arrangements for their students so that they would have a proper level of health care.

Last night the Minister of State, Deputy Donnellan, went back 130 years to 1850 and told us that the State had accepted a responsibility for ensuring that no one was denied access to medical care because of inability to pay. We believe and we are concerned that as a result of this decision many students and others between the ages of 16 and 25 years will find that they are unable to pay for this service. Already parents are struggling to keep their children in third level education. They are struggling mainly as a result of this Government's policies. Parents with large families received no extra children's allowance last year and this year they are faced with 8 per cent VAT on clothes.

Tonight the Minister showed us a memorandum he got from the Department of Finance about the removal of medical cards. I believe the Minister for Health should make his own decisions. He should not be a rubber-stamp for the Minister for Finance or anybody else. Fianna Fáil did not withdraw medical cards from anybody between the ages of 16 and 25 years.

One of the Fianna Fáil Deputies present in the House this evening was a Junior Minister at that time.

I am sure the Fianna Fáil Government were presented with many memoranda suggesting all kinds of outlandish ideas, such as this one, but they had the good sense to turn them down and to refuse to implement them. I do not doubt that the memorandum may have been before a Fianna Fáil Government but when they looked at it they decided it was not in the interests of the health care of the people and did not implement it.

I will be charitable and I will not go any further.

Take your medicine.

The Minister came here tonight and said that people in the upper middle income group would not mind paying for two medical visits per year for their dependants.

That is the most that would be charged. Two visits a year.

Surely the Minister is not suggesting that in the past every student between the ages of 16 and 25 years had had two visits with the doctor every year.

That is the average for all concerned.

Two visits per annum is an average for 10 per cent of the students. The Minister was not here last night. I accept that he was away on State business but the figure was quoted last night that 10 per cent of the students used that service.

That is not correct.

Dr. O'Grady, the students' medical doctor in UCD, has an independent mind. He is not on this side of the House.

Two visits per year is the average.

Some families are confronted with 20, 30 or 40 visits a year. Surely the Minister accepts that.

The hardship clause comes into operation.

I was surprised at the Minister of State, Deputy Donnellan, last night. He comes from the country. In the Minister's constituency of Dún Laoghaire the vast majority of the students are living at home with their parents. Our concern is for all the students but particularly those living in flats. Dr. O'Grady referred to that problem as well and expressed serious concern about what might happen to a student who became ill suddenly.

The health boards make provision for that.

If a student is in his flat tonight and he suddenly gets a pain in the back of his head, a haemorrhage or meningitis, how can be go to the CEO tonight amd get a free medical service if he has not got the ability to pay?

He is automatically entitled to emergency treatment.

The Minister spoke about hardship cases. I accept that the CEOs take hardship into consideration, but that is done on the basis of a five day week. If a student gets sick on Friday night he cannot get a medical card.

He is automatically entitled to the emergency procedures.

He cannot get free medical care. He will either have to do without medical service or go to the casualty department in a hospital.

If there is an emergency he can go to the casualty department.

He cannot go into a hospital on a Saturday or a Sunday according to the Minister.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister said the hospital services are the most expensive of the health services and their availability without charge, irrespective of family circumstances, is a concession which should alleviate any possibility of hardship. In other words, the Minister is encouraging students who get sick in digs or in flats to go to the casualty department of a hospital. As Deputy Ormonde pointed out, that will cost more at the end of the year. I fail to understand the philosophy that suggests the son of a millionaire should get free hospitalisation while somebody down the country with £126 per week and three children will be denied the general medical services. I fail to understand the case the Minister made for withdrawing the general medical services when he then made the direct opposite case for giving a free hospital service without any means test.

Unfortunately consultants cost a great deal of money.

The Minister stated on many occasions that he is committed to the modern concept of health care which is to strengthen the community care services and to transfer resources from hospital care to community care. He is doing exactly the opposite. He is encouraging people to use the expensive hospital services.

I quoted from a letter I got from a student in Cork. He said that this further cheese-paring exercise by the Coalition Government had already cost one of their members over £300 and was causing particular hardship to students living away from home. I accept from the Minister that no health cards have been taken away by the Southern Health Board to date under the scheme for the withdrawal of medical cards. The Minister will accept that they have been withdrawn in other health board areas. The letter does not state specifically in what health board area this student paid £300.

The Deputy mentioned Cork.

It is possible that it was in another health board area. Last night the Minister of State said that many students, particularly those attending third level colleges, belong to families to whom the cost of paying the family doctor is of little consequence. Is the Minister telling the House that the cost of paying their family doctor is of little consequence to all the people from whom medical cards will be withdrawn?

Two visits a year.

Is the Minister suggesting that if a student becomes ill it is of little consequence to the parents if they have to pay £30 or £40 for medical services and medicines? The Minister has no conception of the struggle it is for some people to survive not to talk of maintaining their children in third level education. People with local authority grants for their children are struggling to subsidise those grants.

Many of them have medical cards.

In my own constituency only about 2 per cent of the people do not have to struggle to maintain their children in third level education. The rest are struggling. The vast majority of Irish parents are not in a position to pay out money at the rate of £40 or £50 for a medical service.

Four out of every ten in the Deputy's area have medical cards.

This will cause unnecessary hardship for a large number of people, particularly parents who are just above the medical card limit and those in the lower middle income group. The Minister referred to people in the upper middle income group as being able to pay for two visits a year, but he did not say anything about those in the lower middle income group who have no medical cards.

I was surprised that the Minister did not see this problem in the same light as the Taoiseach apparently saw it when it was put to him yesterday in Trinity College. He promised the students that he would consider their reservations about the plan to withdraw the medical cards. He promised to pursue their claims and invited them to make a written submission to the Cabinet. I am surprised the Minister did not endorse that.

The Minister was away at the time and did not see that report.

I have received the submission.

Did the Government consult the Youth Council? They promised they would consult them on economic and social affairs. Did they consult them before they made this decision? The Government's amendment calls on the Dáil to endorse the Government's decision to withdraw certain health services from persons aged between 16 and 25 years. I am asking Deputies opposite if they do not agree with that decision to come into the lobby with the Fianna Fáil Party who are totally opposed to that decision. Two years ago in Private Members' Time the Government of the day were defeated on a motion like this. It did not have any effect on the Government or bring them down. They were able to carry on and there is no reason why those Deputies who feel for parents and students should not go into the lobby with Fianna Fáil and ensure that this motion is carried and that medical services are restored to persons between the ages of 16 and 25 years.

Question put: "That amendment No. 1 be made".
The Dáil divided: Tá, 74; Níl, 65.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McCartin, Joe.
  • McGahon, Brendan
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, Willie.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus
  • Prendergast, Frank.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Séan.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzsimons, Jim.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Edmond.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gregory-Independent, Tony.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Barrett(Dún Laoghaire) and Taylor; Níl, Deputies B. Ahern and Briscoe.
Question declared carried.
Question put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed."

The attention of the Chair has been drawn to the fact that when the question was being put Deputies in the Chamber should have been seated. I entirely agree with that and I have requested it on a previous occasion. I do not like to repeat it in case I should be accused of pomposity.

Deputies

Never.

Out of respect for the institution of the Chair I request that Deputies in the House remain seated when the question is being put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 65.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John v.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McCartin, Joe.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, Willie.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Prendergast, Frank.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzsimons, Jim.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gregory-Independent, Tony.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Edmond.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett(Dún Laoghaire) and Taylor; Níl, Deputies B. Ahern and Briscoe.
Question declared carried.
The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 2 February, 1984.
Barr
Roinn