The Minister for the Gaeltacht wishes to make a statement under the provisions of Standing Order No. 38. So that there may be no misunderstanding, the Minister may make that statement, one member of the main Opposition party may make a statement and one member of the other party in Opposition, The Workers' Party, may if he so wishes make a statement. There cannot be any questions.
Statement by Minister for the Gaeltacht.
De ghnáth bhéinn ag súil go ndéanfainn ráiteas as Gaeilge, ach os rud é gur i mBéarla a cuireadh mí-iompar im' leith maidin inniu, agus ó tharla gur ceist phearsanta í seo agus nach mbaineann sé le Roinn na Gaeltachta, táim ag leanúint orm as Béarla.
Serious allegations have been made by Deputy P. Gallagher relating to Questions Nos. 13 and 14 on yesterday's Order Paper to which I replied yesterday in the House. Further allegations have been made by Deputy Molloy. The first allegation was that I gave information which was at variance with information given elsewhere relating to the same matter and that in doing so I misled this House. The second allegation made this morning was that I had given information on the subject matter of Questions Nos. 13 and 14 to a Deputy of my party prior to answering the questions in the House. The latter allegation was made by Deputy Molloy.
In relation to the first allegation made by Deputy P. Gallagher, I wish to quote the reply given by me which was based on information supplied by Údarás na Gaeltachta and also on information which was supplied by my own Department. The questions asked were as follows:
13. To ask the Minister for the Gaeltacht if he is aware that the parent company of Irlandus Teoranta, Derrybeg, County Donegal, which closed recently is expanding its operations; and if he will make every effort to influence them to reopen the Derrybeg factory where the expansion could take place.
—Pat Cope Gallagher.
14. To ask the Minister for the Gaeltacht if negotiations are taking place with any companies to replace an industry which recently closed at the Údarás na Gaeltachta Industrial Estate, Derrybeg, County Donegal.
—Pat Cope Gallagher.
The reply was as follows:
Tuigim ó Údarás na Gaeltachta
—go raibh Irlandus (Dún na nGall) Teo ag feidhmiú faoi scáth Irlandus (Craigavon) Ltd. cuideachta nach bhfuil i mbun gnó a thuilleadh, agus
—go bhfuil idirbheartaíocht ar siúl faoi láthair ag an Údarás le comhlacht ar leith maidir le tionscal eile den saghas céanna a bhunú sa mhonarcha ina raibh Irlandus (Dún na nGall) Teo.
Further to supplementaries from Deputy Gallagher I continued as follows:
Níor mhaith liom tuairim a nochtú faoin méid atá ráite ag an Teachta ach amháin seo gur cosúil ón idirbheartaíocht a chuaigh ar aghaidh sular bunaíodh nó sular thosaigh an comhlacht i dTir Chonaill go rabhthas ag brath ar an bpríomh-chomhlacht i Craigavon i dTuaisceart na hÉireann an táirge a dhíol agus chomh maith leis sin bhí mé ag brath air chun bainistíocht agus comhairleoirí a chur ar fáil. I lár na bliana seo caite ceapadh glacadóir sa phriomh-chomhlacht i Craigavon. Sin é an t-eolas atá agamsa agus níos deireannaí ná sin ceapadh glacadóir sa chomhlacht i dTír Chonaill. Tá chuile iarracht á dhéanamh agus tá súil ag an Údarás agus agamsa go mbeidh dea-thoradh ar an idirbheartaíocht atá ar siúl faoi láthair le comhlacht nua a bhunú ansin agus le fostaíocht lánaimseartha a chur ar fáil.
That is the substance of the information I gave to Deputy Gallagher yesterday. I can tell him that the information is accurate and up to date and the finalisation of negotiations, which hopefully will result in the reopening of this plant and the taking on of people, has not yet been completed. The proposal for this project is with me awaiting my approval but in the past few days some questions have been raised which are now being clarified. No documents have been signed, no contracts have been finalised and some matters have yet to be cleared up in relation to this project. That is the information I gave. Had Deputy Gallagher asked further questions in detail I could have given him information regarding the numbers which may be employed if and when negotiations are finalised.
In relation to the second allegation that I, as Minister, furnished a Fine Gael Deputy, Deputy McGinley, with information on these questions prior to my reply in this House, I categorically refute that allegation. I understand that during a news bulletin on Radio na Gaeltachta at 1 o'clock yesterday Deputy McGinley was quoted as having given information to the effect that negotiations were proceeding satisfactorily in relation to this project in Gweedore and that he hoped they would reach a successful conclusion leading to the re-employment of those people who had been laid off. I also understand that Radio na Gaeltachta referred to the source from which Deputy McGinley got his information as "urlabhairí Údaráis na Gaeltachta," a spokesman for Údarás na Gaeltachta. It now transpires that Deputy McGinley rang the Udarás na Gaeltachta headquarters in Galway yesterday morning and, as a Member of this House interested in the affairs of his constituency, inquired about this project and was given much the same information as I gave in the House. This information was given by a senior official, the secretary of Údarás na Gaeltachta.
The allegation that any information that Deputy McGinley had came from me is totally unfounded for that reason and also because I was out of the country when this was taking place. I was traveling from Brussels and did not arrive here until lunchtime yesterday and it would have been impossible for me to have provided Deputy McGinley with the information I am alleged to have given, even if I had wanted to.
I am quite sure Deputy Gallagher would have got the same information if he contacted Údarás na Gaeltachta in relation to this particular problem. The allegations made are totally unfounded. In relation to Deputy Gallagher the information I gave is the up-to-date position and still is and is not at variance with what I understand to have been broadcast on yesterday's bulletin by Radio na Gaeltachta.
The second allegation that this information was given to my colleague, Deputy McGinley, is totally unfounded. I would point out that Deputy Molloy, in stating this, this morning had no foundation whatever on which to base this allegation. This is the third time Deputy Molloy has made serious allegations in this House —twice in two days and another time on a famous occasion—all of which proved to be unfounded and, because of that, I am now asking that Deputy Gallagher and Deputy Molloy withdraw unreservedly the allegations made against me which are unfounded and which I have now shown to be unfounded.
(Interruptions.)
Am I not allowed——
I have already said that these statements are being made in accordance with Standing Order No. 38 by which I am bound. I will call one Member to speak on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party.
You will recall that this morning I sought advice from the Chair about what a Deputy might do in certain circumstances.
(Interruptions.)
That is what I sought. I will not tolerate that kind of innuendo from the Minister who has a notorious record.
(Interruptions.)
There was a disorderly interlude on the Order of Business this morning. In response to Deputy Bertie Ahern, the Chief Whip of the Fianna Fáil Party, who intervened, I said that himself and, I understood Deputy Gallagher, would be welcome in my office to discuss the matter with me. I do not want to use the word "rational" but I will ask Deputies to be reasonable. Standing Order No. 38 is there and everybody can read it. I will proceed today in accordance with Standing Order No. 38 and I will not have any other attempt to handle this in a disorderly manner. I will now call on the Deputy who speaks on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party.
On a point of order, there is no doubt that your position, as you explained it, is quite clear when you indicated that there would be statements from the Minister and from one Member of this party and that was it.
And The Workers' Party if they want to speak.
In view of that the Minister, in making his statement, has invited — the Chair must have been aware of this — two Deputies from this side of the House to respond to what he said. He has clearly done that just now. In fairness, the Minister might have been called to order at that point in view of your remarks.
That is wrong.
He invited reaction.
Yes, but I had no authority——
He asked for reaction.
I will not have my ruling challenged.
I am accepting your clear statement of procedure which is quite correct. Nonetheless the Minister invited statements.
I will accept an apology from Deputy Gallagher on behalf of Deputy Molloy.
(Interruptions).
Deputy P. Gallagher on behalf of Fianna Fáil.
Tá athas orm an deis seo a fháil chun an taobh seo den scéal a chur os comhair na Dála, agus tá súil agam go nglacfaidh gach duine sa Teach gurb í an fhírinne atá a rá agam. Tá mé sásta gur ghlac Aire na Gaeltachta gur eisean a bhí i gceist ar maidin cé nár luaigh mise ainm Aire na Gaeltachta. Ar dtús ba mhaith liom ceist a chur ar an Aire — b'fhéidir nach féidir leis freagra a thabhairt air — is é sin cé dó a bhfuil Údarás na Gaeltachta freagrach?
Níl cead ag an Aire freagra a thabhairt ar an cheist sin.
Glacaim leis gurb é Aire na Gaeltachta atá freagrach as Údarás na Gaeltachta. An bhfuil an tAire ag glacadh leis inniu go dtugann Údarás na Gaeltachta eolas do Theachtaí Dála ar chúlbhinsí an Tí seo nach gcuireann siad ar fáil don Aire é féin?
(Cur isteach.)
Thug Aire na Gaeltachta freagra dom inné ar cheist parlaiminte, uimhreacha 13 agus 14 agus léifidh mé an freagra sin. Dúirt sé:
—go raibh Irlandus (Dún na nGall) Teo. ag feidhmiú faoi scáth Irlandus (Craigavon) Ltd. cuideachta nach bhfuil i mbun gnó a thuilleadh, agus
—go bhfuil idirbheartaíocht ar siúl faoi láthair ag an Údarás le comhlacht ar leith maidir le tionscal eile den saghas céanna a bhunú sa mhonarcha ina raibh Irlandus (Dún na nGall) Teo.
Níos luaithe inné chuir Údarás na Gaeltachta eolas breise ar fáil san cheist chéanna do Theachta Dála, ní amháin do Theachta Dála ach do chomhairleoir chontae de chuid Fhine Gael. Chuir urlabhraí Údarás na Gaeltachta in iúl don Teachta Dála agus don chomhairle chontae den cheantar sin go bhfuil cainteanna ar siúl chun monarchan Irlandus a úsáid chun tionscal a chur ann. Táthar ag súil go gcuirfear 40 postanna ar fáil. Bhí an t-eolas sin ag Teachta Dála ó na cúlbhinsí agus ó chomhairle chontae dá phairtí féin agus ní raibh an t-eolas sin ag an Aire.
(Cur Isteach.)
Níor chuir mise isteach ar Aire na Gaeltachta, agus tá súil agam go bhfuil sé in ann a thaobh féin den scéal a chur agus ní gá don Aire eile a shrón a chur isteach ann. Sin an cheist, go bhfuil Údarás na Gaeltachta agus tá rúnaí Roinn na Gaeltachta, atá mar chathaoirleach ar Údarás na Gaeltachta ag cur níos mó eolais ar fáil do Theachtaí Dála agus comhairleoirí chontae de chuid Fhine Gael ná mar atá siad ag cur ar fáil don Aire.
(Cur Isteach.)
Nuair nach raibh príomhfheidhmeannach de Údarás na Gaeltachta ábalta eolas a chur ar fáil d'Aire na Gaeltachta bhris an tAire an príomhfheidhmeannach as a phost: chuir sé deireadh leis na baill a bhí ar an mbord agus chuir sé, mar a déarfa, trí henchmen isteach chun obair an Aire féin a dhéanamh. Níl siad ag cur an eolais ar fáil agus caithfidh an tAire glacadh leis sin.
Chomh maith leis sin ba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh do cheist 15 maidir le airgead a bhí le caitheamh ar Árainn Mhór. Dúirt an tAire go raibh airgead le caitheamh ansin ach ní raibh a fhios aige cé mhéad airgid nuair a chuir mé an focheist sin air, cé go raibh daoine ó chúlbhinsí a pháirtí féin ábalta an t-eolas sin a chur ar fáil. Tá Roinn na Gaeltachta anois, ní Údarás na Gaeltachta, ag cur eolais ar fáil do bhaill de chúlbhinsí pháirtí an Aire féin agus níl siad ábalta an t-eolas sin a chur ar fáil d'Aire na Gaeltachta.
(Cur Isteach.)
On a point of order, unwarranted attacks on public servants are being made by these people. I completely reject the allegations made against public servants.
Public servants should not be named or attacked in the House.
It is ironic that the Minister for the Gaeltacht and the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry, Deputy Paddy O'Toole, should be particularly interested in public servants because some few months ago the same Minister for the Gaeltacht called in three——
That does not arise. I would ask the Deputy to——
It is part of the statement. He called in three honourable——
It is not relevant and the Deputy knows that.
I think I know more about the facts and I believe it is relevant. He called in three members——
Deputy Gallagher, please.
(Interruptions.)
Tá me ag rá——
(Interruptions.)
The statements being made now concern questions that were answered yesterday and an allegation that the Minister prior to answering those questions disclosed information to a Deputy of his own party. I appeal to the House to co-operate with the Chair.
Bhí mé ag rá gur ghlaodh isteach triúr ball de Údarás na Gaeltachta. This refers to Question No. 15 on the Order Paper asking the Minister for the Gaeltacht the position in relation to the proposed extension——
A Deputy
Question No. 15 was not mentioned.
If you are allowing another speaker on the other side of the House I will give way.
I am not.
Referring to Question No. 15 in relation to the proposed extension to Aphort Pier, Arranmore Island, County Donegal, I did not receive a direct answer. The answer I got was that it will cost a considerable amount of money but moneys were provided for leading lights at Aphort Pier. I asked the Minister for the Gaeltacht a direct honest question, the amount of this, and the Minister for the Gaeltacht told me he was not aware of that. I am stating here that information is being made available to backbenchers in his own party that is not available to the Minister. He must investigate this.
That is an attack on the public service and the Deputy ought to know better.
A Cheann Comhairle, information was given to others that was not given to the Minister and he will have to investigate this.
(Interruptions.)
Order.
The Deputy missed the boat twice in one week.
I am asking for order and that applies to everybody.
I think I have related to the House the sound reasons for making any allegation in this House. Ní dóigh liom gur féidir le Teachtaí an Tí seo agus tusa mar Cheann Comhairle glacadh le cleasaíocht den sórt seo ó Aire Rialtais ar bith agus ó Aire na Gaeltachta sa cheist seo. Tá mé ag iarraidh ar Aire na Gaeltachta a chinntiú nach dtarlóidh a leithéid seo arís. Go raibh maith agat.
Níl sé i gceist agamsa léimt isteach——
On a point of order, there are 74 Fianna Fáil Deputies in this House, 72 Fine Gael Deputies and 12 Labour Deputies. What right have The Workers' Party to speak on every subject? You are not being equitable to the House. I want an explanation.
(Interruptions.)
If the Deputy will sit down I will give him an explanation. I call on Deputy Tomás——
(Interruptions.)
Let the Chair give an explanation which he need not do if he does not wish. I have called on Deputy Tomás Mac Giolla in accordance with Standing Order No. 38.
The ghost of Deputy Joe Sherlock is hanging around. That is what he is afraid of.
That ghost is haunting those benches, not these.
(Interruptions.)
Níl sé i gceist agam léimt isteach sa chluiche polaitiúl seo idir Fianna Fáil agus Fine Gael ach ba mhaith liom an deisa ghlacadh chun ceist na fírinne sa Teach seo nó an méid den fhírinne atá á insint ag Airi Stáit sa Teach seo a ardú. I only wish to raise the point as to what Deputies can do if Ministers do not seem to accord with the truth in statements they make one day with another.
I want——
That was the only question I raised this morning. I did not make reference to any Minister or any matter. I sought guidance from the Chair. It is very unfair that the Chair would allow that kind of allegation to be made. I have the transcript.
Can you read the transcript?
The Deputies will leave the Chair——
(Interruptions.)
The Deputies will leave the Chair no option but to adjourn the House. I do not want to do that.
There is such a thing as fair play.
You had better get Standing Orders changed. Deputy Mac Giolla, I want to make it clear to you before you go any further——
That is a waste of time, seeking advice from the Chair.
(Interruptions.)
Withdraw that statement.
It is very hard for the Chair to hear everything.
If the Chair is upset I will withdraw that but I have my own thoughts and everyone on this side has also.
Deputy Mac Giolla, it appears to me that you were about to embark on a reference to an incident that happened yesterday and again today concerning a member of your own party. That is not in order and I ask you not to continue on those lines.
I merely wish to say that it is good that there is a procedure whereby a Minister can come in and make a statement to clarify an issue or to say that he was correct or incorrect in what he said on a day previously, and this was done today by the Minister for the Gaeltacht, Deputy O'Toole. It is a good procedure to have available for a Minister. It would be very good if when a Minister's statements did not accord with the truth a Deputy had a similar opportunity of informing the House of facts in regard to a case such as this, so that we could sort out the truth. That is the only point I wish to make because there does not seem to be a procedure within this House whereby a Deputy who has been given what he would imagine to be wrong or contradictory information can raise it in the House without being thrown out of the House.